My teacher is preparing me to sit for grade 6 in upcoming exam session (at least I think he means 6 and not 7;)) He says my cello, which is an intermediate entry-level model, will "do" for grade 6, but that I need to start saving up for better one ... not that I'm displeased, of course. I've always wanted a better cello so I'm glad he thinks so too. Just that I might have to rob someone to get the $$$.

Wondering what is considered an appropriate time to upgrade an instrument from entry level to advanced to professional? Would I suffer any if I had to take grade 8 on my current instrument?

I'm quite intrigued by this because my new viola has such an astounding sound compared to my old one that I can't see how that wouldn't affect marks in an exam

I mean how much of that 'quality' would an examiner put down to a player's ability to get that sound out of an instrument - would an outstanding player be able to do it from a cheaper instrument? I think probably. But an amazing instrument must 'impress' an examiner - especially if they're NOT a string player and are unaware of the difference in quality between instruments and would therefore attribute sound to the player .

All I do is bow the strings - the new viola is doing all the work


Oh cellomi - an upgrade may not be as expensive as you think. It might be worth you trying some cellos out sometime in a shop to give you a better idea.

Lottie!

how wonderful,

you sound SO HAPPY with your viola

that is fantastic

It's kind of a weird situation - mine is similar in that I have a good student Cello that will start to be pushed in the upper grades, but could probably manage it.

I've tried to disconnect my new instrument purchase from the grade/exam system, and am thinking more about how much I'll need to spend to upgrade, and whether that would be a final upgrade, or a similar step towards my final instrument.

I'm tending towards the former - I don't want to spend a lot of money that only gives me a small increase in quality/sound. Personally, I feel that my current instrument will take me to grade 7 and 8 quite comfortably, but I am starting to save up, with the expectation that I will change in around two to three years time; and that change will be to an instrument/bow combination that would see me not having to change again.

My Cellos weakness is in the region beyond 7th position, particularly when using thumb position - the current grade 8 syllabus doesn't really stretch those areas too hard - but again, it would depend on what else I was doing, performance wise - I'd like to do quartet, Trio and Solo repertoire, as well as orchestral, so having a higher quality instrument to accomplish that might change when I buy.

I'd rather not spend thousands of pounds if all I'm doing is playing to myself! I ask myself, if I had the money now, could I justify an upgrade? The answer is no, and when it's yes, I'll do it. That's a bit vague I know, but I think it's only you and your tutor that can know when you should change.

On the other hand, I do think that there's a psychological aspect to this - If you sound better, you play better. It's kind of the 'Look good, feel great' syndrome kicking in

About 18 months ago I almost brought a fabulous violin, but advice here and the circumstances meant that I didn't. Then six months ago my teacher found a similar instrument but in even better condition, that just roars out. It's a real performers violin.

Now I know there are people who think as a beginner (~ grade 3) I probably shouldn't have bought such an instrument, but the price was right and it's a forever instrument. I'll never need to upgrade it. There are no cracks, no tonal weak spots, it's really smooth all the way along the neck. I doubt I could actually afford to replace it with anything better.

So my advice would be if the right instrument comes along at the right price - go for it.

that's just what I did

(the price was a little 'stretch' for me actually but my family 'jumped' in and helped me out, it was my birthday after all and that's the excuse they used I doubt I'll buy another violin, well, unless I jump into a little fortune which is highly unlikely or a very precious violin drops on my head! )

I am, I'm so lucky! It still feels like I have to 'grow-into' it (like big shoes) so I think it's the forever-viola for me

The down side is that I haven't had time to play it for nearly 3 weeks now! AND my show in Edinburgh went so well last week that instead of being able to take life a little easier now (ie more playing) things have taken off for me and career-wise I'm busier than ever and will be for the forseable future.

While I'm obviously delighted about that it means, I think, I'll have to cancel plans for an exam in November. It's going to be a real struggle to fit in enough practice time.

Still - I'm holding out for 20 mins later today

but that is GREAT!

wish you plenty of success in your career

I'm sure time for viola will come later

Great news Lottie - congratulations!

Back to the original thread - just got my old violin out (I keep her for travelling and playing outdoors). I used to think she made the most lovely sound, but now I have to work harder to create the sound I want. The sound in my head is now like that of my new violin, which is much richer, fuller. It was also funny to notice how loud a B is on the A string compared to the other notes - it really jumps out compared to the smoothness of Calypso.

Taking Lottie's point - Now I'd feel much more confident taking an exam on Calypso, as she's the better instrument - but before I had her I didn't really know any better.

Some people upgrade when they get to around Grades 5-6, as playing and technique improve, some people may find that they've outgrown their current instrument or discover its limitations in the ability to take the player to Grade 8 and beyond. If you feel that your current instrument may be holding you back, then maybe it is time to upgrade.

I've upgraded a couple of times and am considering upgrading again but in my case I need to find out first whether it's me or the instrument (I suspect the former).

If you are thinking of upgrading, ask your teacher if they know of suitable cellos available for sale or if you're looking in a shop, if they would consider a trade in on your current cello.

Good luck for your Grade 6.

p.s. Lottie - wonderful news, absolutely delighted for you.

it's 'interesting' as I felt the 'need' to change violin just after I sat my grade 5 exam....

I suddenly developed a strong 'dislike' for the sound of my violin it was VERY strong indeed...

when my teacher played my violin it did sound a little better, but it was 'marginal', I still disliked it very much!

I just could not bring myself to enjoy it anymore, he 'had to leave'

so I bought a new violin, hang on, not one TWO!

then as many of you know 6 months later I just 'tripped' into my current violin, fell in love with it and bought it now there's no turning back!

So.....to cut a long story short:

I did 'upgrade' at grade 5, but I am not sure it was because I had outgrown my violin, what do you think 'people'?

I suddenly had like an 'allergic reaction' to it, even now if I listen to videos I have of me or my teacher playing it I dislike its sound...brrrrrr

is that 'outgrowing' an instrument?

I bought my 1st violin when I left school as I had been renting through school. I bought a fairly cheap violin and when i got to about grade 6 I upgraded to a 1K GBP violin.

Now I am past grade 8 and working on my ATCL I am planning to upgrade very soon and will be spending a few thousand GBP and I hope that the new violin/bow will last a long number of years. The reason I feel the need to upgrade is that I am unhappy with the sound in higher positions and at my level much of the music goes high up, a lot more than when I was learning graded level music. With a new violin I can produce a richer sound which the music I am and will be playing deserves.

I think you should up grade when ever you like (or for some when can afford to).
Some people get a professional instrument from the very beginning (luck them).
Some get a cheap instrument then up grade straight to a professional one, as cannot be bothered with the "intermediate" instrument.
Some prefer to wait till they are more "experienced" before getting a pro instrument.
So i think depends on the individual.
What ever you do enjoy the process of finding a nice cello!
(or maybe think about renting a better one???? try for a while, then some even allow you to buy if you really love it ---- but do not know how much this costs ----- but just an idea!).

I upgraded very gradually and i'm glad i did Began on a stentor, got a ?450 violin for my grade 4, ?1800 for my grade 8 and recently got a nearly ?8000 violin. When i upgraded to my ?1800 violin, there was one costing nearly ?6000 that i was SOOO absolutely totally in love with, i was prepared to do anything to get it and was ready to sell all my old instruments and stuff to afford it but my teacher said no, that'd be like giving a learner driver a Ferrari I think if i'd have played a ?6000 violin for my grade 8, it'd have been doing a lot of the work for me. But at the same time, it's nice to have an instrument you can grow into and know that it is your forever violin I'm fairly sure that's what i have now.
If you can part ex the instruments in as you upgrade them it wont end up costing you any more

I'm going to stop looking at this thread, it's going to cost me money - as my mornings web browsing history would attest to...

Thanks everyone for your suggestions!



Thanks, Lottie, I have tried out some cellos that I absolutely love but do not have the $$$ for...



Ffliwt, I think this is true in a general sense, as instruments are "swapped" up for the next level; but surely, one cannot sell off a modest student-model for a sufficient amount to make a difference in the upgrade cost? How much of the original value should I be thinking of recouping?

How much were you looking at spending? If it was one of the 'mass produced' makes eg. stentor etc. then you wouldnt but if it's a hand made instrument some shops would give you 100% back for part ex

but only if you bought it from them in the first place.

Yes i forgot to add that - very important!! Thanks DiscoPants

Well, my cello is a hand-carved student model (from china).
The shop I bought it from will take it back at 1/3 the original price if I purchase another cello from them
but others have told me that I might be able to get a better price selling it on my own...

I have thoroughly enjoyed this thread! Nothing to add but - some great stories!

Yep, you probably will...it's like trading your car in at a dealer - you'll never get as much as you might get selling it privately.

I started off on a school-loan instrument til I got to Grade 3 - then I bought a ?150 violin (it was about 15 years ago) that my teacher found me. I used that til Grade 7, but it really wasn't good enough for Grade 7...but I couldn't afford anything else. It reflected in my marks I got in my Grade 7 (a pass)

I didn't upgrade until I was an adult, and I spent about ?1k on my current instrument, plus another ?250 on a bow. I'm loving it at the moment, but I can see a time when I might want to upgrade further...but it's got plenty of playing left in it yet

What about selling on e-bay? and fix a reserve.

E-bay now charges really high fees, especially if you take payment through Paypal. You have to give 10% of the selling price plus listing fees plus paypal fees if you take payment that way.

true, I sold my double bass through an ad on Gumtree, it was much better

(though I did sell 4 violins on eBay 2 to people 'down the road' though so it was 'cash' , I 'cancelled' the ad on Ebay and avoided ALL fees )

Ho --- did not know as i never use e-bay. But useful to know - thank you. But i suppose if you get a good price for it????

Perhaps rent it out????

Jojo, how many violins have you had?

mmmmmm (thinks and counts on fingertips.....)

SIX (one was a good yamaha electric)

that's nothing compared to what some people have

(and a double bass now gone)

I currently have Eowyn and a cheap and cheerful 7/8 which I have never really played so don't even know what it sounds like (played it once for five minutes many moons ago).

gumtree's not too bad an idea...
It's just that, when I've seen ads for cellos I was interested in, the posters never did reply to my queries!
maybe their ads had expired or they don't get email notification of queries?

I'm always wary of stuff on e-bay so I wouldn't blame anyone for believing that there's something desperately wrong with my cello and I'm trying to rip them off
Might be worth trying though.

Jojo, do you know it's "illegal" to pull down an ebay ad so you can complete the transaction externally?
Don't blame you, I know of folks who've done it for musical instruments. I guess you just have to "try it out" before you will commit to making purchase of an instrument you've not known hithertofore.

I was gutted in the consultation lesson when he told me my bow (?250 30 years ago) was complete rubbish and needed replacing now and that my violin (English hand made, ?750 in 1987) wasn't much better! I still love them....

Actually, no, I didn't know

I am 'guilty' of not reading ALL the little tiny print of everything, so unless it was written somewhere obvious I would not have known.

I have been a member of Ebay for many years and when I first signed up it did not say anywhere 'obvious'.

I DO REMEMBER reading it is wrong/illegal to withdraw a listing if there is already any bids on the item, but in my case there was NO BIDS YET.....my item was listed as a bid or buy it now and these people contacted me wanting the item as a buy it now but wanted to try the violin first and it was their suggestion to bring cash with them and to just 'get on with it' and pay and leave with it if they liked it. So that's how it all ended....


When I cancelled the listings there was NO message from Ebay saying: 'you are about to cancel a listing which has not ended yet, are you aware that this is against regulation number so and so' or something along those lines.

I am sure if it was 'illegal' as you say then a message would appear to remind/warn users so surely it is not. Or even Ebay would then 'follow up' somehow (especially when I have done it not once but twice right??? so much for illegal ).

So yes, in a nutshell I think you refer to listings when bids have already been made and in that case 'too rightly so', you would not want to fool around as it is not right for those who have already placed a bet on the item.

I sold a violin through ebay. I had a very cheeky offer via email from one guy which I turned down. There were quite a few other 'questions' too. After the listing ended with the violin unsold I had another email from one of the people making an offer. I took it because I wanted rid of the violin but I think I had only had it 6months and I got less than half what I paid for it by the time postage was added.

I didn't realise ebay now took 10%!! I guess that's why a lot of people don't use it now. My hubby was hoping to sell an expensive camera on ebay but maybe we'll look elsewhere

I've just looked it up on their 'rules etc'
and it says it's 10% up to ?40 maximum so if you sell something for ?800 (like I did for 2 of my violins) you get charged ?40 MAX, I do remember this was the case with my violins (each)

That is correct. Up to 40 GBP as a final selling fee.

thats terrible, they must make a bit then!

If an instrument is sold through a shop - I'd imagine they'd take a lot more than ?40 for the trouble. I have several artist friends and the galleries take 40 - 50% of the sale price. So 10% on EBay seems pretty reasonable to me, by comparison.

10% i can handle, but 50 sounds a bit high, then with all the other charges etc on top. Go and sell privately may be best, if you do not mind holding out for a bit longer, perhaps.

An agent sold a couple of mine (paintings) in London last year - 60%.... PLUS VAT!!!


Won't be using them again

Surely you would have been told before you agreed to any sale? I would have taken the paintings straight to another, cheaper agent ASAP!

Yes I did know in advance. The attraction was the exposure to other agents and galleries in London. Another gallery is taking my work to London this year and the commission is a bit lower.

Here in rural Scotland the average gallery commission is around 33%. In the cities it goes up to 40-50%. In London the average is 50% and upwards - I even heard of a gallery in London charging 80% commission!!!!!

But, if you're selling paintings for ?30,000 maybe that 80% isn't too bad. It just hits hard for people like me whose prices are still firmly based in reality!

It's very tough to make a living from painting sales alone

It still sounds very bad that they are allowed to charged that much, I mean I know that you can say no and go somewhere else, but 'still', come on, after all 'who painted the painting'??? when they charge more than half the value of the painting to me it's a bit like they are saying 'This painting IS MINE'!
ie: if I owe 40% of an item and another person owes 60% of it, then the person owing 60% of it has more 'privileges' over it, a bit like owing a business, if you owe a business the person owing the biggest slice has more 'rights' when it comes to decisions blah blah blah

so anyway, sounds very bad they can charge over 49% of the value of the painting/item, it's a bit like they say 'this item' is MINE, if you follow my line of thought here..... I don't think it's right, yet I acknowledge it does happen and at the end of the day it is only down to us to accept or walk out.

yes, but it is a bit like shops which sell items with a large profit margin, like make -up where the profit mark up is 100%, but many still buy it.

But then they say, well it makes up for the lower profit margin on other items.



----- thats why many famous artists died poor! But now their paintings make millions!
Perhaps their families get the benefits.

All I meant, jojo, was that it does say somewhere in fine print that you should not complete an ebay transaction externally for "safety reasons" and, also (may I add) so that ebay doesn't lose earning something off your transaction (guess they don't wanna be a free advertising portal)! Doubt they can track whether an ad's been removed due to external transaction or a myriad other reasons though.

Anyway, it's great you managed to make an ad of your violins via ebay as I was just afraid that doing so would seem to shriek of scam and fake esp for musical instruments. I've had too many friends done in buying "great instrument deals" off ebay... At least now I know there are some good stuff out there... I just might try...

Thanks everyone for the great discussion

Keep the ideas coming!

I'll keep y'all updated if I make any move

aaaaaahhhhhhhhh

but I was 'selling'

I would not go and try and buy a violin on ebay though, not if I wanted to buy a 'good violin' I would not go on eBay anyway.

I bought a Yita violin on eBay, that is the ONLY violin I'd buy on there.

I would only ever buy a violin in a shop or privately from someone I know personally or has been introduced to me by someone I know personally and then have the violin valued by a shop I trust before I buy anyway, and always after I have had the violin on trial for at least a week (this is for any 'good buy' anyway, cheaper violins I'd agree to buy by just playing them for an hour maybe).

I know one particular make of violin --- which was hand made by an experienced luther, that was bought from e-bay and was an excellent buy. E-bay has its place if you know what you are doing. I'm talking about people who really know what their doing here, not like the likes of me, but have studied violins all their life. And what is a "good violin"?. I bet this will raise a few eye brows.

that is 'fair enough' but I was talking about 'me' and what 'I' perceive as 'good', I was not talking about anybody else, 'I' will never buy a violin off eBay, you or anybody else do what you like case closed

But at the same time you can be a master luthier and know by looking at a violin that it's a well made good quality violin - doesnt mean it's gonna be a violin that you like and that works well with you

I use this example a lot but i've played Italian violins worth ?50,000 that i really didnt like. So if i was an expert, i might have looked on ebay and known it was a good violin... but i still wouldnt buy it having not played it.