I nearly said 'hymns for the unchurched' but didn't want to initiate a slanging match; I've no problem with non-churchgoers and genuinely want to make the experience of a service as rewarding as possible for them so would appreciate any thoughts on a situation that arises here monthly.

I am annoyed that after an 11 hour day yesterday that included work, organ practice and choir practice, I found a message on my answering machine requesting that the hymns be changed.

When I returned the call the reasoning was " I'm sorry it is such short notice but I've just got back from holiday and it is the Family/Welcome ~Service this Sunday and they won't know any of the hymns on the list".........[truncate conversation but the next bit was exactly the words used]....." I haven't decided what I'm going to talk about yet".


So we are to ditch 'Now thank we all our God', 'Praise we now the word of Grace', 'Praise my soul the King of Heaven', and 'Bright the vision'.
Let us ignore the fact that I had spent nearly an hour going through these line by line with the non-music readers in the choir.

None of these would have them rocking at Greenbelt, admittedly, but my contention is that the irregular visitor is unlikely to be all that familiar with the alternative hymns that I have been instructed to play i.e 'Morning has Broken, 'Give me oil in my lamp' and 'O Jesus I have promised', either. Clearly, no more thought has gone into this selection than could be managed in the blink of an eye.

So the question is, what do others do when they know a fair proportion of the congregation will be, if not first timers, at least unfamiliar with the culture? I know for a fact that a handful of the regulars avoid this service because of the likely presence of fidgety infants and the vacuous theology that will be presented. (I hasten to add that the service is being conducted by a Reader, not the Vicar, who submitted the original list for my approval).

What hymns would you suggest as an alternative? Because if I am to play this c@rp I shall go on pedal strike and not vary the registration one jot. We have Common Praise, Mission Praise and A+M to hand.

As an "irregular" visitor - I know all the three suggested alternatives and two of the originals - maybe it's my age or years of Sunday School as a kid (and a liking for Cat Stevens' version of MHB). So maybe your irregulars will know more than might be expected.

Despite that - the short notice changes are really not on, so I'm not surprised that you're miffed. I hope that others can suggest some suitable hymns for you.

I'm not a very dedicated church attender, and not especially familiar with hymns, but I do know Praise my Soul the King of Heaven (it seems to be frequently used on Songs of Praise... perhaps that's why) and learnt Morning has Broken and Give Me Oil in My Lamp at school. Your other suggestions are a mystery to me! I'd certainly argue strongly for keeping Praise My Soul.

I've always thought Give Me Oil in My Lamp is the most dreadful hymn ever, perhaps because I couldn't figure out (age 6) why anyone would want God to put oil in the lap (which was what I thought the words were). I had images of those Buddist monks setting fire to themselves etcetc...

"Give me oil in my lamp" gives me the shudders! We are often tasked with singing it at weddings, as bride and groom sang it at school.

Although I can understand Morning has broken, the other two really don't make sense. As a recently returned churchgoer (but who sang loads of hymns at school) I prefer the more traditional hymns, and find them far easier to pick up - the modern ones tend to do odd things at cadences, the more traditional ones go where you expect them to far more. O Jesus I have promised was one of the ones a more knowledgable friend suggested would be difficult for a wedding congregation as the timing / rhythm of the start of the verse is not easy if you don't know it. Lord of the Dance is another one that is a bit ropey with an inexperienced congregation.

Thanks all for the input. I shall hold out for Praise My Soul, definitely shall refuse Give me Oil.

I went through the hymn book this afternoon and made a list of possible alternatives with tunes even someone from Mars will have encountered. Thing is, I don't know if I'm setting a bad precedent here and rewarding the bad behaviour with jolly alternatives to hymns he obviously doesn't like, or can't be bothered to get to grips with.

No reason why the rest of the congregation should have to suffer, though.

Maybe try and think of it as doing your bit to make sure the music is good enough, and suitable, to encourage any 'visitors' to return?

If your 'opposition' is determined to use something of the 'Give me oil in my lamp' ilk, perhaps 'Colours of Day' or 'Make me a Channel of your Peace'. I also learnt those at school, so they'd be known by the same age/group of people as the other. Personally I think they both are somewhat preferable... although a little less... gratutiously bouncy?

This may not be helpful, however; I'm a non-churchgoer and I know all three of these hymns, including both tunes for 'O Jesus I have promised' (all three if you count the theme tune to The Muppet Show. ).

The offender was changing the hymn numbers on the board when I went in with list of alternatives but it was not possible to come to an accommodation; he had had a service sheet printed with the words of the hymns on it.

I think I'll suggest that tune for the next time that hymn is scheduled ;-)

Me too, but for a different reason. I can't sing it without thinking that there must be a parody somewhere that begins, "Give me lead in my pencil".

It is a disgrace that your Minister (or whoever) allowed you and the choir to waste your time and efforts practicing hymns which wouldn't be used. It shows total disrespect to you all. If the hymns were printed on a service sheet it is fairly obvious that the service was planned at least a few days in advance, so surely you could have had a revised hymn list in time for choir practice? In my view this is just another example of how the church has become 'increasingly 'clergy centred' in recent years.

Regarding the choice of hymns, we have had similar 'discussions' here about Back to Church Sunday, which is supposed to be on or around 23rd September. Those concerned seem to think we should build the service around Mr Kendrick's finest, as it will (I quote) "encourage young families back". As far as I am concerned that is utter tosh.

Whenever we have to suffer hymns like 'You Shall go Out With Joy' or other where clapping is involved, most of the congregation can be seen cringing, not really knowing whether to join in, or just pretend they are busy with their young ones. All that is needed are hymns with a good tune and a clear rhythm which can be easily followed, and which people enjoy singing! Hymns that have stood the test of time have done so precisely because people (including the unchurched) enjoy singing them.

As a matter of interest, we have an occasional Songs of Praise service in this parish, where members of the congregation (including several teenagers) are invited to nominate their own hymns, and to introduce them if they so wish. Of the 45 or so hymns chosen in the past year, only one was 'happy clappy', (You Shall Go Out with Joy), and even that was a tongue in cheek choice by a Reader, who said he wanted it sung at his funeral.

SB

Thanks, SB; this is exactly my view.

This is a Reader, not the vicar, but the vicar mentioned to me on saturday that there had been a change of plan and how sorry he was. Sorry or not, it shows that several people were in on this and I was not informed until late on Friday afternoon, and choir practice meant I didn't pick up the message until after 7p.m.

The high-handedness is the annoying part and the impossibility of any negotiation. I really wish now I had left him to scramble around for the hymn CD.

A clear notice is going up somewhere prominent stating that any revision to the hymn list must be passed on to me by the Tuesday before the service. After all, there is a deadline for notices to go on the sheet so this doesn't seem unreasonable. If they can't get themselves organized before a Friday I don't see that it should become my problem.

The final responsibility for all of this still rests with the vicar as he or she is 'the minister' under Canon B 20.

The minister is entitled to impose restrictions on last minute changes to hymns and thus prevent this unprofessional shambles.

Barry Williams

I do not know the hymn numbers until I turn up for the service ! Very occasionally I end up sight reading one, but theres been nothing I cant manage.
OK congregation is rather elderly, and mostly we have well known traditional hymns, but our standard hymn book is Mission Praise, and they do like some modern hymns like 'Shine Jesus Shine' far more suited for a piano than an organ !

Mel2, I agree wholeheartedly with those who've suggested this is unprofessional, disgraceful, and totally unacceptable.

It should not become your problem: nor should you and the choir be expected to invest time on preparation which is then dismissed as not needed.

Please do your notice and I hope this does not happen again. If it does, I would be missing.

A Reader. Why does this not surprise me?

Mel; I am sure you have a busy day job and a busy home life, so you really do not need this kind of time wasting when it would be so easy for those responsible to give you the hymn list in good time.

Rather than putting up a notice (which would probably be ignored), I feel it would be better, and entirely reasonable, to write formally to the Rector and PCC asking that you are notified of hymns in good time for choir practice on Thursday; adding that hymns notified after this time will be played at the discretion of the organist and choir members.

(Why not ask that the hyjn list be given to you the previous Sunday, so there is time for negociation if required?)

If the matter is raised under 'correspondence received' at the next PCC meeting, your concerns, and any responses should be minuted, so there will be no excuses for Readers or anyone else behaving in this way.

SB

Seems like a good idea, SB. I shall address it to the new vicar and PCC. Everyone is still tiptoe-ing round him and on their best behaviour so for a while at least, things should be done by the book and minutes taken.

Changing hymns is almost a reflex action on the part of this person. He used to do it shamelessly on the day of services which is why I am so surprised he tried it on again when he knows that it will cause an argument.
Retired Headteacher = Habit of command.

"If the matter is raised under 'correspondence received' at the next PCC meeting, your concerns, and any responses should be minuted, so there will be no excuses for Readers or anyone else behaving in this way. [i]"

Sorry, but this is nothing whatsoever to do with the PCC, at any time ever, under any circumstances, not no how, not ever, at all. It just is not.

It is possible that it could be raised at the AGM, as being a matter of general interest to the parish, but it can never be within the remit of the PCC. More importantly, raising it with the PCC might give them the impression that they have some jurisdiction in the matter of music. Before long the PCC will be choosing the hymns!

Barry Williams

Too true. Give 'em an inch and they'll take a mile. Just yesterday evening I was chatting with a retired priest, a keen amateur musician with traditional leanings, who has just been appointed priest-in-charge at the parish where he has been assisting for years, the incumbent having announced that he is moving on. Already various people in the congregation are manoeuvring for their own corners of influence and one of the churchwardens has been blithely announcing that she is going to be choosing the hymns. "Over my dead body!" said the man through gritted teeth.

Whoops, to whom should I address the notice/letter, given that the vicar will occasionally be elsewhere and someone other will take a service?

I don't wish to appear inflexible or unreasonable, I just want fair notice so that I don't waste time at the end of a long day laboriously coaching people with hymns that are going to be thrown out.

And, gawdelpus, they always seem to be replaced with the same things!

Perhaps the answer is to let it happen and then turn round and go home, leaving them in the wotsit without an organist. Trouble is, it might be a while before that happened, and in the meantime I'd quite like to register my disapproval formally.

The only person who has the final word in this is the minister i.e. in your case, the vicar. Your letter should be addressed to him or her.

Canon B20 provides that 'Where there is an organist, choirmaster or director of music, the minister shall pay due heed to his (in this case her i.e. your) advice and assistance in the choosing of the chants, hymns, anthems and other settings, and in the ordering of the music of the church, but at all times the final responsibility and decision in these matters rests with the minister.' (Note: NOT the lay reader, churchwarden or anyone else.)

I strongly suggest a carefully and moderately worded letter to the minister explaining that way in which a lot of people have had their time wasted.

Barry Williams

Guess I'm very lucky with my vicar, then. He's just sent me the hymn list for the quarter ending Sunday Next Before Advent (I refuse to call it "Christ the King"). Now I just need to sit down with the hymnal and work through what he's chosen, lest any infelicities creep in.

Experience so far has been that he generally heeds what the Choir Director (i.e. yours truly) has to say. Long may this happy state of affairs continue.

P4

I suggest not writing anything to anyone. Why not talk to the Vicar and sort the matter out face to face.

As far as I'm concerned, training the clergy is an important part of the organist's duties!

Stephen is completely correct on both counts. Letters make any issue formal, besides, there is no modulation in writing, whereas tone of voice can soften things somewhat in conversation.

The training of clergy is a serious matter. Few have received even the most basic training on music, let alone how to deal with employees. There is so much management to do in a parish and so little guidance or help offered to clergy.

Thank you, Stephen.

Barry Williams

It seems that this particular Reader is invested with this authority (or is considered to be here! ). Whether I choose to accede to this is another matter. The next few days should be interesting (to me, anyway )

Mel will know the individuals concerned and the circumstances involved; so she is in the best position to decide whether to write to the Rector, speak to him, or perhaps both.

The reason that I advised putting this matter into writing is that, in my experience, clergy tend to run away from any kind of disagreement, especially where autocratic Lay Readers are involved. In these circumstances speaking to the Rector is unlikely to resolve anything, and the chances are that he will try to sweep the whole affair under the carpet, where it will smoulder until the next time.

I don't know whether Mel or any of the choir members are on the church council, but at least if the matter is brought before the PCC there will be an opportunity to discuss these concerns openly, and hopefully decide who is responsible for choosing hymns, and when these should be given to the organist. I fail to see how any such discussion would be seen as a green light for PCC members to chose hymns themselves.

Any discussion in PCC should be minuted, so Mel would then be perfectly justified in posting a notice reminding everybody when the hymn list should be given to the organist (quoting the date of the meeting concerned).

SB

"if the matter is brought before the PCC there will be an opportunity to discuss these concerns openly"

I sorry Swell Box, I may be dense on this point, but how can the PCC discuss a matter which can never, under any circumstances, be within its remit or jurisidiction? Any decision they come to cannot be enforced, ever. They might as well discuss the price of fish, over which they have as much jurisdiction, probably more.

There are no circumstances under which the PCC can have any input into the music of the church. (They could refuse to pay the organist, but then the minister would then pay the organist and recover the money as a legitimate charge from the PCC. This has happened.)

There is no doubt as to who has the responsibility for choosing the hymns. It is the minister, not the reader. The minister is obliged, as a matter of law, to have regard to the advice and assistance of the organist in this matter. The reader has no standing in the music whatsoever and can never have any standing.

I apologise if I am missing the point, but the law is the law and no-one, including PCC members, has the right to disregard it. Perhaps someone would kindly explain.

"Be ye ever so high, the law is above you" (Lord Coke, Lord Chancellor under King James I).

Barry Williams

The law might specify where the buck stops with the choosing of hymns, but in a plurality where there is one priest with the cure of souls supported by say: an assistant curate, a lay reader and someone licensed to distribute, it might be the latter who are 'running' the majority of services. So that priestly 'authority' only really works if the priest produces and distributes a hymn list.

Therefore those running the services will want input into the services they are running. If the choice of music has not been delegated by the priest to the organist, then there will need to be rather more negotiation over the music. Even if it has been there will still be changes requested/demanded/announced when someone decides to preach on a particular theme or use alternative readings etc.

In such cases it may be as well to warn the PCC that if anyone, either leading the service, or preaching wants particular music they have to let the organist know by a certain deadline, otherwise it may/will not be possible to accommodate them.

Similarly in an inter-regnum there may be people on the PCC whose job it is to try and find cover on a weekly basis, it can be as well to make sure that a visiting cleric submits their music request in advance, rather than just turning up on a Sunday morning and demandiny hymns x,y and z.

Barry, I accept what you are saying, but if the Lay Readers in Mel's parish are anything like those here, they will regard Canon law with utter contempt. (Two of ours are sworn non-conformists who seem to believe they can choose to disregard Canon Law if they so wish.). And if the clergy in Mel's parish are anything like the clergy here they will run a mile from any confrontation with autocratic Lay Readers.

Canon Law may well apply, but if a Lay Reader chooses to ignore it, and the Rector fails to bring him to heel, Mel is left still not knowing which hymns she will be playing on Sunday morning!

All I am suggesting is that the matter is raised with the Rector, and if necessary discussed in PCC. There might then be a fighting chance that the Lay Reader concerned will take notice of his own PCC's decisions. And if he doesn't, the matter can be taken back to the PCC.

I agree that this is not an ideal situation, but sadly the law doesn't always guarantee that people will behave as they should.

SB

"There might then be a fighting chance that the Lay Reader concerned will take notice of his own PCC's decisions. And if he doesn't, the matter can be taken back to the PCC. "

Herein lies the problem. Mel could well take the matter back to the PCC, but the PCC can do absolutely nothing whatsoever about it because it has no power, standing or relevance the issue. Its decision can never have any effect.

Barry Williams

How good to see that politics is politics, wherever it takes place...

meantime, Mel2 - many sympathies for finding yourself with the rug pulled out from under your feet, and I hope that matters improve for you.

Very well. So what recourse would Mel (or any other aggrieved church members) have in a situation like this? Who do they go to, and what could be done?

In the worst case, who decides whether a Lay Reader continues to be licensed to a parish?

I can remember our PCC voting to propose new Readers more than twenty years ago, but once Readers are licensed they seem to be answerable to nobody but themselves. Wardens and other PCC members can be voted out of office, but Readers are ex-officio members of the PCC, so they can turn up to PCC meetings and vote whenever they like, for as long as they like.

SB

The only recourse is to the minister. i.e. the vicar. If the situation is really bad application could be made to the Employment Tribunal, once the internal procedures (which are required of a church as an employer) were exhausted.

The organist has no part is discussing whether or not a lay reader (actually just a 'reader') should or should not be licensed. This is only about music, the sole control of which is with the minister. The reader's wishes on music can never over ride the direction of the minister, ever.

Barry Williams

Only skimmed through this so may have missed something but isn't it usual for whoever is leading the service or preaching to choose the hymns? I'd go with the regular organist mostly having the say on tunes as they will know what is known at their church.
A late change is particularly inappropriate where there is a choir in which case it's at the very least a bit silly to change after choir practice has taken place. If there is a choir to lead then visitors are not exactly having to struggle with unfamiliar tunes on their own even if most of the regular congregation don't decided to show up to welcome them.
Then again my experience is mostly not C of E so things may be a little more relaxed.

I'm currently awaiting a reply to my reply to a reply, if you follow me. Email makes these things much quicker, which may or may not be a good thing.

I'm very heartened by the interest in this and voices of support. Just to clarify - because people can't always be doing with trawling back to the beginning:
1) Vicar and Mel decided on hymns for the next couple of months.

2) All well until serial hymn-alterer takes service and gives very little notice of change, disregarding work already done for forthcoming service. Makes d@mn sure no negotiation possible by having words of particularly naff hymns printed on service sheet (not normal practice).

3)Mel quite open to change in hymns if necessary for coherence in theme; would prefer not to have time and effort wasted rehearsing hymns that are then peremptorily thrown out. Is asking for a deadline for changes to be announced.

4) Currently awaiting clarification on whether Reader is granted authority here to choose hymns (an authority apparently not extended to other clergy in the Team).

I will report on the colour of the smoke coming out of the Rectory chimney when it emerges.

I hate to see mention of the "offender" and, even worse, the "opposition", Is this a church we're talking about?

Here are a few thoughts (they are general, not specific to this particular problem as I don't know enough about it):

An organist must have a working relationship with the Vicar at the very least. Hopefully, in time, that will turn into real partnership. Issues such as who chooses the hymns, and when, should have been discussed at the interview, before an organist taking a job. In the case of a new Vicar, there should have been a meeting with him or her, at which this and everything else will have been sorted out. Not having established responsibilities satisfactorily is bound to lead to disaster. Bear in mind that many clergy these days are very busy these days doing things they used not to have to do (and being unable to do things that used to be considered their primary function) and sorting out endless problems. Choosing hymns may not be at the top of their list of things to do.

Sticking up notices, emailing PCCs, or anyone else, is no substitute for talking. To me it is a last resort when all else has failed.

If someone tried to change the hymns on me at the last minute I would ring them up and explain that they'd already been practised. I would expect to reach a compromise, perhaps changing one or two of them (although if service sheets had been already printed I would accept that for once. Playing a hymn or two that I don't like has never done me any permanent harm, so far as I'm aware.) I would make it clear that it mustn't happen again, though. I would not have any argument about it on a Sunday morning. Anyone taking a service will be keyed up and it is a very bad time to negotiate. If a quick discussion doesn't resolve things I would leave it, and discuss it with the service taker later. If that was unsatisfactory then I'd ask to talk to the Vicar and service taker together.

I would work on the assumption that someone who did this was thoughtless rather than an enemy. If you talk to him or her you can explain why it's not fair to you to change hymns at the last minute. Emails, notices and letters, especially if going behind their back, are not likely to help the relationship you have with them.

If I was not able to discuss things with my Vicar, I would know it was time to go. It doesn't mean that I'm going to win every argument, but that we can listen to each others points of view with mutual respect. In the last resort, of course, the Vicar has the last word. Even in the choice of hymns.

I stress that these are general thoughts, not a comment on this particular posting.

In my experience, until recently the best hymns for visitors were the traditional A+M revised stodge that would constitute the musical equivalent of treacle pudding and custard. Familiar words and tunes, aka we sang ones like these at school.

This was not just "All things bright and beautiful" and "Give me oil in my lamp" but anything including in the old Blue Songs of Praise Hymn Book - this was quite extensive and could be turned to many an occasion.

I also found that Visitor liked to hear the Organ (Church = Organ) and that the lovers of guitars and music groups were actually de-churching the casual visitor rather than welcoming them in. This is due in part because our casual visitor wants the Church of England to be part of 'Great Britain Heritage Park' along with the National Parks and Buckingham Palace.

Unfortunately the average Vicar and PCC does not see things like this! Many a robed choir and organist are more in keeping with this vision than they are. They do not see our greatest opportunity to Evangelise is to buy into the brand then preach to the masses and tie them in with a house-group or two. They are radical, and by being radical want to destroy the very thing that may keep them alive!

Mel, what is happening to you is ridiculous, how anyone can expect you to work under those circumstances is beyond me!

Canon B20 does have a get out clause - the Archdeacon, however things would have to be very wrong before the Archdeacon sides with the organist.

You are best off talking to the vicar rather than fighting a war by poster. I was, at one stage responsible for deciding which hymns were chosen for Evensong. I worked from the Lectionary and liaised with both the Vicar and the Organist. Everyone was happy including the Congregation. I always worked on three months of hymns at a time, and worked one month ahead. If an ordained member of Clergy wanted to change the hymns for any reason it was no skin off my nose. Nobody ever did as the function of every hymn was considered. The organist tried once and was over-ruled by the Vicar who specifically stated she agreed with my selection. When the Organist attempted to do the same job she could not sustain it.

Selecting hymns is an art. It requires an extensive knowledge of hymnody, the likes and dislikes of your comgregation. It requires the selector to read and inwardly digest the readings. It requires the selector to have intimate knowledge of the liturgy and know how the Hymn will function within the liturgy. It is little wonder there is a separate section of Canon Law on Church Music, because get it right and it enhances, and get it wrong and it grates so much as detract from divine worship.

Stephen; this is all very good advice, but it only works when everybody involved respects Canon Law and those working around them.

Instead we have a situation where (from what I understand) an autocratic Lay Reader considers himself above the law, above the clergy, and above everyone else in the church. (I know because we have one here with a very similar mindset who has done immense damage over the years).

The question for me is whether to walk away, and allow such people to destroy the church that I love, or whether to stay and fight for what I know is right.

As Edmund Burke said: All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.



But it also helps if those concerned have some understanding of music, and the musical resources available in the church.

SB

Thanks, jod, my original question was about which hymns to choose when you know a significant number of the congregation will be new to the whole thing. Even I had forgotten this. I well remember singing the standard A+M hymns at school (although I can't remember which book it was) and not feeling culturally estranged. That's what you were supposed to sing so you sang it (and, on the whole, enjoyed it).

It seems for family services I may be asked to play songs about woolly caterpillars or some such, on a keyboard. I will do this with good grace if this is the way true religion is best served, and try and keep my doubts to myself.

I certainly don't want this to become a turf war and would like to remain on good terms with all concerned; my only problem is being on the receiving end of someone else's failure to plan ahead and keep me informed.

Any contact I have had with the vicar has been with a view to effecting an efficient method of requesting adequate notice of change, as pleasantly as possible. If I can discourage major changes just for the sake of it, that would be good too.

I don't know what the situation is here, but if this keeps happening then a meeting between lay-reader, organist and vicar is urgently needed to resolve the problem. A discussion between organist and lay reader having presumably proved fruitless. Firmness may be required of the organist.

Does the Vicar agree that hymns should not be changed. Then that must be established in a meeting between all three. I just can't see that sending emails and formal letters hither and thither is going to make the situation better.

If the Vicar doesn't agree, then the organist either has to put up with things or leave. I personally would never want to find myself in a position where, as organist, I was working against the incumbent. (I suppose I might want to fight against things that were wrong as an ordinary member of the congregation or PCC member, provided others were in agreement.)

"[i]Canon B20 does have a get out clause - the Archdeacon, however things would have to be very wrong before the Archdeacon sides with the organist.[i]"

The archdeacon may substitute himself for the PCC in a dismissal. That is the only way he can get involved.

The archdeacon can only 'side with the organist' if he or she declines to support the minister in dismissal of the organist in lieu of the PCC. Apart from that the archdeacon has no say in the matter whatsoever.

I must emphasise that music is solely in the hands of the minister and that there is no appeal or discussion with anyone else, ever, at any time, at all, save for the minister taking advice from the organist.

Stephen's wise approach is, of course, the best one. But if it fails, then it is the minister who must act and only the minister. There is no-one else with any power or authority in the matter of music. Not even the bishop can intervene.

If Mel cannot persuade the reader that his actions are wasting a lot of rehearsal time, then only the minister can intervene. If the music list is chosen and approved by the minister, the reader cannot alter the hymns at any time.

Barry Williams

if the hymns had already been decided, I would have informed the reader that there were already hymns prepared and they are the hymns which will be sung! Is there any possibility the reader wouldn't have knwn the hymns were already chosen? Even so, It's not his place to choose hymns.

Anyone know how to convince PCC that this and many other things are outside their remit?

"Anyone know how to convince PCC that this and many other things are outside their remit"


This is easy. You give them a copy of Canon B20. That simply written piece of legislation makes it quite obvious where the control of the music lies.

If anyone needs to see Canon B20 send me you private email address and I will forward a copy.

Barry Williams

Try this link Canons of the Church of England, which will download all 246 pages in PDF format. It makes a fascinating read.

SB

I'm really grateful to have been given this information and to have it nestling safely in case of need, but in my situation I'm trying not to quote Canon law, lest it be construed as an hostile act. Somehow, if I ever come over all officious, the Furies are let loose and bite me on the ###.

Too funny..very good and I'm quite sure you are right...

I can see now why I left the church years ago..The politics and back biting, unrest and dischord are rife. Comittees, Parochial Church Councils, flower arrangers..its all too much to be bourne

Mel2 I'm sorry you are having such a trying time..Is it honestly worth the annual stipend I wonder..with or without Canon Law it sounds like a headache.. stuff the autocrats, layreaders and interfering clergy pack it in, have a full english breakfast and read the paper.

Andrew

Mel I have the contact details for one member of the Clergy who due to circumstances is now spending his time at the Churches expense helping people who end up the wrong side of their PCC or diocese.

It didn't work out for him or his wife, and his organist is now much more happily employed elsewhere. What happened was a scandal. We were caught up in the cross-fire (hubby and me) and some important paperwork went missing. However, they were not to blame, and they have both offered to help particularly me who as the non-ordained party had no easy means of redress clear my name. I'm sure they would be able to help you too.

You are so right Andrew, but it doesn't have to be that way, and isn't that way in most places.

We felt that we were treated appallingly in our own parish, to the point that my wife and daughter refused to darken the doors of any church for a while. This was all because my wife, who was Church Treasurer at one time, fell foul of a small group (read clique) of people, which just happened to include a megalomaniac Lay Reader with 'anger management' issues. I would not like to say more about this on an open forum, but I think you can guess.

Having been brought up in the church as boy chorister I found it rather more difficult to give up, although if I am honest I am probably more motivated by our son's musical interests than anything much higher at present.

However, we have been lucky enough to find another church some distance from home which is far more open, honest and welcoming. The people may be less well off, but they are much kinder and more generous in all respects. They also have a nice organ which needed playing! My wife and daughter are also taking more interest these days, and are always made to feel welcome when they choose to attend, which wasn't the case in our own parish.

I think the moral here is not to be deceived by outside appearances. An ancient and attractive church in a well-heeled picture postcard village is not always as friendly as it looks.

SB

I think Andrew's right - if the situation in a church is unchristian then get out.

I must have lived a charmed life - I haven't experienced a church like this (problems, yes, of course) and I wouldn't have any part in it.

I can't understand how any church can not be a Christian community. That doesn't mean that all agree, or that all get on with each other easily, but much this stuff I read about fills me with despair and disbelief.

I think the Church of England (especially) is in a very difficult place at the moment, for all sorts of reasons. I would hate to be a Vicar - trying to decide how to help the church grow, and how to attract young people. (Personally I think the best way is to give them something to do, for example singing in a choir that makes the most of it's resources, and sings some decent music, but also takes into account the needs of the congregation). But how do we drag in a significant number of those who have no church connection at all?

Far more important than quarreling over hymns.

Has anyone mentioned prayer as part of the solution? I find praying helps me get things in perspective.

Again, I think anyone who's got these sort of problems should pack it in. The incumbent is in charge - any problems - talk to him and sort it out. (Message boards aren't the answer!)

Anyone who is doing the job because they need the money, then they should do what the Vicar tells them and put up with it.