Ooooo! Get thee behind me, Andrew...

Thankfully, all this is a very small part of my life and isn't upsetting me much apart from resenting the time I expend that seems to achieve little. For example, winding up the choir practice tonight I was thanking the ladies for all their hard work and patience, complimenting them on how they had done and, as an aside, said "let's hope it doesn't all get chucked out like last week!"

"But", said one lady, "it was a VERY nice service, I thought - very suitable for ordinary people - not all deep and difficult."

No annoyance about any of it; obviously lightweight tosh is what people like. And Give Me Oil In My Lamp.

It's easy to imagine that things are like this all the time but fortunately it is not; this is a storm in a teacup but it has helped me to decide what I will put up with in the future, and it will be much easier to smile, say Good Luck and walk out now I have rehearsed it in my mind, should Chummy try this again.

Now I just have to find the woolly caterpillar songs because that's what brings the young families in, right?

Whilst I stand by what I say..with hindsight I did rather jump in on what is a very serious discussion and was rather flippant in dealing with a subject that the OP and others hold very dear to their hearts and for that I apologise unreservedly..


However..I come from a religeous background (extremely religeous to the point of suffocation) and I am sorry to say my families bigotry, hypocrisy and downright fakery was enough to put me off religeon of all denominations..I have to say that dressing things up as christian is all well and good but the sheer spite and venom I saw demonstrated by so called christain people was in total opposition to what the church is supposed to be all about i.e. Love and Compassion so much so I would rather stay as far from organised religeon as is humanly possible..

It is plain to see that from this thread nothing or very little has changed in the church or the hearts and minds of some involved.


Hello again Mel..sorry my sweet for my ill timed post and my rather heavy heart but these wretched people in the church ruin it for so many..Im heartened to see you have kept a sense of humour..go get em honey and take no prsioners..play up a storm and give em h.e.l.l...(no pun intended)

Andrew

The main problem, I have found, is that too many people in the church are unable to disagree over anything without falling out and making things personal. In my business life I can disagree with people where millions of pounds are at stake, or even tear lumps out of each other in court over technical issues, but we can still go for a pint in the evening and help each other out in other ways. Why can it not be that way in a church?

You are right that one should be able to talk to the incumbent, but all too often the incumbent is afraid to become involved for fear that those who are trying to push their own agendas will take their ball home.

SB

As I intimated, my family has also been the victim of Church politics and at the highest level. We also know of Clergy and laity who have left their Parishes because of in-fights.

I find it tragic. Both my husband and I had been involved in Church life all our lives and lived very active Christian lives. Other couples we know have had given many more years of service to the Church and inspired even more people.

Perhaps C.S. Lewis really did get it right in the Screwtape Letters... it appears to me there are several 'wormwood's alive and kicking and working as pew-fodder and amongst the heirachy. The trouble is nobody knows who they are!

Getting right back on topic, we had a very interesting exchange at church yesterday morning, which left us feeling seriously hacked off:

By way of explanation, there was to be a Baptism in the main Eucharist, so it was a full house (120 +), including many people who I doubt were regular churchgoers.

The Vicar had set the hymns about a month ago, including the final hymn which he planned to lead on guitar to some Calypso melody or another.

Anyhow, we arrived at church about 45 minutes before the service to be greeted by a Vicaress who informed us she was standing in for the Vicar. She also said that she knew nothing about music, (this was soon to become painfully obvious), so we tactfully pointed out that there was going to be a problem with the final hymn, (the words to which had been printed on the service sheet).

Vicaress: Oh, can't you just play it on the organ?

SBJ: No, I don't have the music, and it'll be in guitar chords, so it won't work on the organ.

Vicaress: Why not?

SBJ: Guitar chords are different, and in any case we don't have the music.

By this time the Verger had joined in the conversation, and suggested that she might be able to find a tape instead.

Me: Do we really want to end the service with a tape when we have an organ and organist? Why don't we change it to a well known hymn from the hymn book that everyone will enjoy singing?

Vicaress: I agree, we should change it. (There was little other choice.)

Verger: The music group won't like that.

SBJ: Where is the music group; can one of them play it on guitar?

Verger: They are on holiday.

Vicaress (in very condescending tone): OK, I know you're only young, but what can you play?

SBJ: Pretty much anything from NEH or A&M.

Vicaress: I am not familiar with those hymn books. What would you suggest?

SBJ and I reeled through a dozen or more favourites, including Love Divine (Blaenwern), which the Vicaress through might be appropriate, although she doubted that any of the younger people would know it. (Never mind that it was sung at the recent Royal Wedding.)

That was all agreed, so everyone went about their business.

SBJ started by playing a few voluntaries as usual, and about three minutes before kick-off played an improvisation of the first hymn, but had to keep this going rather longer than expected as the service started nearly ten minutes late!

The first hymn (O Jesus I Have Promised) was fine, and most of those present sang it. The Gradual was one of those awful three-line ditties from Sing Glory, which ended up pretty much as an organ solo as nobody knew it or wanted to sing it. Then came Dear Lord and Father (Repton), which everyone seemed to know, and sang well. We finally got to Love Divine, which pretty much raised the roof!

Given the mix of the congregation this seemed to prove beyond doubt exactly what sort of hymns people like singing!

However, the congregational response to these hymns didn't seem to please the Vicaress one little bit. There was not one word of thanks, and her parting comment to SBJ was that "if you want to play in churches like this you will have to learn hymns from Mission Praise as that is what people want these days. Nobody uses the English Hymnal any more."

Frankly I thought this was a total insult; and the church doesn't even have a copy of Mission Praise!

SB

You proved my point perfectly. Just because the clergy don't know it doesn't mean the public don't.

How many people watched the wedding of the Duke and Dutchess of Cambridge? - Millions. I sure as a result the hymn tune Blaenwern has slipped into the public subconscious. The whole point is that like it or not so has most of A&M and NEH without the clergy being aware of it. Try to teach the average person who is pew-fodder something that vaguely sounds like a hymn tune in five minutes and they will get it. It is a style of music they are familiar with, try to do it with something hip-and-trendy, and you have to be Carrie Grant to get away with it (even then she does not always succeed!).

The 'I like it modern' brigade forget at their peril that the average congregation member is over 50 and stuck in their ways. Even trying to speed up old favourites is hard work (I bet I'm not the only person who planned a quiet verse only to play it with all the reeds blazing to keep the tempo up Amazing Grace on Full Organ rather than stopped diapason and 4ft flute is interesting in the extreme, as is having to do that with all of Heinlein so you can get out of church before Maundy Thursday having started plaing on the Ash Wednesday Service!)

Yes I have worked with music groups, but their a law unto themselves - oh why did she arrange that - answer so it was playable because it was in a stupid key and the harmony I could not have got away with when I was 13! Oh and this is before the Clergy stick their oar in. Still the one time I played a tine as specified by the 'minister' rather than substituting it to one we all knew nobody sang! I warned her that nobody knew it, and told the congregation to address their complaints to the Priest in charge. After that she realised that deferring to the Organist judgement whether it was the regular organist or me was a good idea, we tended to know what we were talking about.

However they do have their foibles, and SB it sounds like you had a day where you were working with a lady Vicar who was full of them.

Shame - because if it had, you could have picked it up, turned to no. 449 and showed her "Love Divine"!

In the 50's and 60's when I was brought up and and then a Methodist organsit, a favourite was 'Sing we the King who is coming to reign', tune 'The Glory Song'
I doubt I had played it since then but it was chosen yesterday (Mission Praise 603) . I dont think our rather elderly congregation knew it , though its easy enough to pick up ! The 'lay' preacher in this Welsh Presbyterian Church (I think a former Methodist aslo) had given me the numbers on a slip of paper, and alongside 603 , GIVE IT SOME WELLY !
Our congeregation was very small (only about 16 ) due to holidays. Nevertheless, I gave it welly alright !

I think this pretty much sums up the whole exchange. Classic.

As it happens we ourselves have two different copies of MP; one of which is so big that it falls off of the music desk, but we don't use them much as the music seems to be riddled with mistakes.

However, I don't think the hymnbook was the real issue. The problem was a trendy Vicaress who thought that young people and the unchurhed would enjoy poor quality music from the 1980's, but was inadvertently shown to be totally wrong. This was completely unintentional on our part as we were simply trying to ensure that the service ran smoothly in the absence of a guitarist, but the outcome was inescapable.

Indeed, I think she was completely unprepared for the energy and enthusiasm put into Love Divine by organist and congregation combined, and the look of joy on peoples faces as they sang it.

As an aside, Wiki says this:

"Love Divine, All Loves Excelling" is a Christian hymn by Charles Wesley with a theme of 'Christian perfection." [1] Judging by general repute, it is among Wesley's finest: [2] "justly famous and beloved, better known than almost any other hymn of Charles Wesley." [3] Judging by its distribution, it is also among his most successful: by the end of the 19th century, it is found in 15 of the 17 hymn books consulted by the authors of Lyric Studies. .[4] On a larger scale, it is found almost universally in general collections of the past century, including not only Methodist and Anglican hymn books and commercial and ecumenical collections, but also hymnals associated with Reformed, Presbyterian, Baptist, Brethren, Lutheran, Congregationalist, Pentecostal, and Roman Catholic traditions, among others; [5] specifically, it appears in 1,328 of the North American hymnals indexed by the online Dictionary of North American Hymnology, comparable to Newton's "Amazing Grace" (1,036), Wesley's "O for a Thousand Tongues" (1,249), and Watts' "When I Survey the Wondrous Cross" (1,483), though still well short of Toplady's "Rock of Ages" (2,139) or Wesley's own "Jesu, Lover of my Soul" (2,164). [6]"

What more do we need to say?

SB

I played the Organ for a service where the music group couldn't practise as they were enjoying a New Years Eve Party only to receive complaints. Then when I handed in my invoice, the Church Warden complained to the regular organist that I wanted paying and could they not use me in future. I'd only been playing for the Toddler Service Gratis for them as well as that had been as service where the musician had traditionally played without payment.

When I explained all this to the ladies who ran the Toddler Service they were appauled! They particularly liked the way I put extra sound effects on the Piano that were not written in the music to illustrate bits of the worship songs and the children liked them. What was more I was prepared to work with them when planning music so it was an integral part and not an added extra. It appeared that one member of the music group (also on the PCC) had ideas above his station and did not recognise the three years spent in a music department. Unfortunately the regular Organist refuses to serve on the PCC and the Church was in interregnum at the time. The Church Warden was none to pleased when I said, what does the Arch-Deacon say about this given we have no Minister at the time and I played the music as specified for the service on the best instrument for the job?

Everything went very quiet at that point. The trouble is it was the last straw. This was the Church who neglected to pray when it looked like I needed skin-grafts after my burns. Who failed to realise the impact my husband's effective dismissal had on him and the family. I wanted to play, but I really did not want the grief anymore.

Swell Box et all stand your ground this could be you. Your views matter, and visitors to your church do not want to walk into an unholy row about Church Music because a Trendy member of the Clergy has a bee in their bonnet about modern stuff, when they're expecting traditional hymns with Organ Accompaniment.

I've only just come to this thread, but I just had to say how much with the above. We have just had a new organist at our church, who as well as upping the standard of our singing immeasurably, has also visited the local (CE) primary school to invite children to join the (very small) choir. We now have 3 new (girl) trebles (one of whom is actually a Muslim, but we've reached an accommodation with her family as to what parts of the service she is involved in ) who are as keen as mustard and come along faithfully to choir practice and to the Sunday service. Since previously the only two persons in regular attendance under the age of (well, probably my age ) were my two sons, this has increased the average number of children in the congregation by 150%.....

There is one aspect of this story that I find quite amusing, but hypocritical at the same time.

The church has a music group which it seems must be kept happy at all times and at any cost. The happy-clappy band used to have their own service later on a Sunday, but this was failing badly, so it was merged with the main service, and considerable compromises were made [in terms of music and the words used in the liturgy] to accommodate them.

They clearly feel that nothing should stand in the way of evangelising the church; but as several of them are school teachers they disband during school holidays, but still expect their musical preferences to be respected.

Surely if their calling is so strong they would arrange their holidays so that musical cover was maintained throughout the year?

(I should make it clear that as far as I am concerned they can go away on holiday for as long and as far away as they like; just so long as they take their music with them to sing around the camp fire.)

On another subject, I was told only yesterday of a longstanding member who has recently left the church in protest at an article in the parish magazine, in which the [purported] results of a survey of young people was published. According to the survey none of the young people liked organ music or 'old fashioned hymns', but said that they liked drums and guitars.

It turns out that the "young people" involved in the survey were carefully selected, as they were either children of music group members, or their friends, so this was hardly an unbiased poll. Crucially, the organist, who is also a teenager, was not asked for his views. I wonder why?

How low will these people stoop to get their own way?

SB

(New poster so apologies for dredging up old thread)



I find the best strategy in such situations is the 'Colin Sell Gambit'. That is, to acquiesce willingly and play the hymns that have been requested. To the tune of another.

'Morning Has Borken', for example, would go happily to a random 10 9 10 9 tune such as this, which for all its lack of musical merit does at least have the element of surprise.

Better still is to play it to a tune which you are sure the congregation will know. That is, after all, why you have been asked to play these hymns. How could the minister complain?

So, I think you could make a creditable fist of 'Morning Has Borken' to Maccabeus ('Thine Be the Glory'). You'd have to sing two syllables (equal length) to the last note of the first and third lines. The congregation would love it. Do remember to modulate up at least one tone on the last verse. And to use the Solo Tuba.

"[i]How low will these people stoop to get their own way?[i]"

So low they could walk beneath a snake's belly with a top hat on and have plenty of space clear above.

I recall a similar 'survey' being done in a church in the 1970s. It was clearly loaded in such a way as to get a particular result - that the choir should sing less. Fortunately, there were several people in the congregation who knew what they were about. The 'survey' was (metaphorically) torn to shreds at a public meeting and the person who instigated it (the vicar) discredited on that matter. When a competent survey was done some months later it was found that there was strong support for the work for the work of the choir and the most unpopular feature of worship was 'Series III' Holy Communion which the vicar had introduced. When the new vicar came 'Series III' was dropped and the congrgation grew within two weeks.

I do not understand why it is assumed that the Holy Spirit can only work with a particular style of music or liturgy in church, the musical style not being modern, but in fact very dated - usually 'Songs of Fellowship', of something similar.

In respect of 'Morning has broken' it should be remembered that this item is outside all CCLI arrangements. Separate permission is needed to print the words on wedding/funerals/Sunday service sheets. Permission should be obtained from David Higham Associates Limited.

Barry Williams

I enjoyed Rogue Organist's guerilla tactic and since reading it have been trying to make the words of MHB fit Thine Be the Glory in my head, but I find I have half a verse left over.

I agree it fits the other tune though. If I employ this strategy I shall check my exit route is clear at the end of the service before doing a Jonah Lomu for the west door, clutching bag to bosom and felling anyone in my way.

Barry, about the CCLI arrangements: if a service sheet is printed with the hymns in (to spare those unfamiliar with hymn books the trouble of looking up the numbers), does one need to check if permission should be sought, or will it be made plain in the hymn book if the words can be reproduced? This is something I hadn't thought of.

"Barry, about the CCLI arrangements: if a service sheet is printed with the hymns in (to spare those unfamiliar with hymn books the trouble of looking up the numbers), does one need to check if permission should be sought, or will it be made plain in the hymn book if the words can be reproduced? This is something I hadn't thought of."

In most hymn books the date of death of the author/poet is given. Copyright exists for the life of the author plus seventy years.

However, a further copyright may exist if the words of the hymn have been altered, as had occured (frequently and very badly) in the case of the New English Hymnal. (Even worse in 'Hymns for Today's Church.') Thus an editor altering a hymn that is out of copyright produces a new copyright item in his new version.

Similarly, a new copyright item is created if a composer arranges an out of copyright piece, though CCLI seemed not to recognise arrangers' rights a year or two back.

Most hymn books have specific pages dealing with the ownership of copyrights, giving details of who to apply to for permission. Modern books, more helpfully, often print the information at the bottom of the hymn page in the music editions. (e.g. Common Praise.)

If the hymn books are used permission only needs to be obtained for the performance rights.

Barry Williams

Thank you for the clarification Barry.

I always understood that in the context of Divine Worship, no permission is required for the performance of copyrighted material. Am I mistaken?

In law charges are exigible. The Performing Rights Society does not, at present, levy charges for performances of copyright works during acts of divine worship. This is a concession, not applicable on the Continent, where charges are always made.

However, a number of businesses are making good money charging wedding couples fees for a general 'wedding licence' that includes acts of worship in churches. It may be that these include the playing of CDs.

Barry Williams

'Exigible'. What a lovely word!

P4

Off topic but I have just read through this thread and as I am at the moment re-watching "The Barchester Chronicles" (such a delight!) - plus ?a change ......

You could try the following:

O Jesus, I have promised - The Muppets Theme
O Jesus, I have promised - Match of the Day
At the name of Jesus - Puff the magic dragon
Let us break bread together - She'll be coming round the mountain
What a friend we have in Jesus - Mack the knife
In heavenly love abiding - The Addams family
O love that will not let me go - Blackadder

This is going to be stuck in my head forever now!

I think the best one was a confirmation service I sang at where the organist didn't recognise any of the potential tunes for 'We pray thee, heavenly Father' and instead we sang it to the tune for 'Every sperm is sacred' (to make it fit the first note was repeated to put the first syllable on an up beat).

We also had 'There is a green hill far away' to 'The House of the Rising Sun'. It fits perfectly.
Yes, on Palm Sunday with me at the organ a couple of guitars and a drummer.
It was ecumenical as all the Heswall Churches at the end of their own services paraded up to ours. The Catholics carried a large heavy cross though town in torrential rain to join us !

Good grief! What tune is that? I think I'd refuse to play that one.

Can you supply the rest of the words?

I play every week for a church(es), normally given 30mins notice to the hymns to be played ~ only on very special occasions maybe 5 times a year am I given 2 days notice. normally given between 5-8 hymns to play.
I visited a Salvation army church just 3weeks ago ~ I guess that was my greatest challenge as some of the tunes are from the melodies of Seventh Day Adventists hymnal. ~ Those alternatives you have been given are very child like in choice of repertoire so Id imagine many people would have known them or easily picked up the tunes.

It is often how complex a tune is to learn that is the issue for people with little hymn experience.

So complex songs i`d imagine,

Royal Oak
True Hearted Whole Hearted
and a more modern, "Faithful One"

You would be lucky to teach newcomers these tunes.

Then alot of the tunes are complicated, but a nice hymn
May the Fragrance of Jesus fill this place a great opening tune, especially if sung in 2 part.
Love Lifted me,
I serve a Risen Saviour

A good thing to do would be to change the words of What a friend we have in Jesus, ~ to ~ I will sing the wondrous story ~ Its in the same meter and sounds amazing !!

Anyways they are my suggestions, my greatest one of all as always is " Pray about it and God will bless"

Thats a great suggestion Martin, maybe I will surprise them with it !

It's from Monty Python.


My friend was teaching me the words last week...when we were in Madrid for a Catholic youth festival.

^^^

I'm obliged to you, madbassoonist. -Sorry to be thick.

If it's from Monty Python then no wonder it has passed me by - much of that humour left me scratching my head wondering why it was funny. (Please let there be ONE other person in the world who thinks The Life of Brian was lame?!)

Count me in Mel.

SB

My name is Brian and my life is not lame !!

Yes. Very. Possibly if I were anti-religion I might find it vaguely amusing in places, but I'm not so I don't. The Flying Circus could sometimes be funny, but even that was hit and miss (as the Pythons admit).

When I told our DofM he ordered the music straightaway... must pass on the others!

..must say it is an improvement on Camberwell!

Anyone got a fun tune for 'Now Thank we All Our God' so that I don't have to put up with Hatherop Castle!

I have never played 'All My Hope on God is founded' to anything other than Michael --- until yesterday, when a retired and very old fashioned retired minister (aged 92 !) of the Welsh Presbyterian Church insisted he wanted 'Groeswen' , the third of three tunes for this hymn in 'Church Hymnary 3' . We used to use this hymnbook but usually it's 'Mission Praise ' now. The other tune (beside Michael) is an old chorale 'Meine Hoffnung'.
He also wanted another hymn from CH3 I'd never come across before, but for the moment Ive forgotten it.
The choirmistress wanted 'Westminster Abbey' in G rather than B flat. It seems to be variously in G , A, or Bflat depending on which hymnbook you use. Our elderly choirladies even find top F as the second note a bit of a struggle !
Incidentally the aforementioned misister is in terrific heath , and can still a take the whole service (65 mins) inc orating a 20 min sermon without notes. I think he has recently celebrated 70 years in cloth. A lovely man.

Whilst 'Michael' is a sitirring tune, 'Meine Hoffnung', a wonderful melody, underlines the words rather more effectively.

This is a conflict that church musicians often have to face. It occurs with "How shall I sing that majesty", popularly sung to 'Coe Fen'. The impact of that tune, to me at least, is to displace the words, somewhat in the manner of the beguiling foxtrot, 'Alton' used for the magnificent "Firmly I believe and truly". I remember the tune rather than the words.

It is the duty of the church musician to ensure that the tune underlines the words, rather than distracts from them. 'Michael' is a glorious tune but, as a member of the congregation, I find that the emotion of the tune detracts from the words. In this I am sure that I am moved by the origin of the tune and, of course, its superb descant by John Rutter.

It is most difficult to balance and there is no easy answer. We are all influenced by so many competing factors.

Barry Williams

An eminent hymnologist - I forget who, but it may have been Erik Routley - complained that the tune Converse was so banal that he was always tempted to sing "Me no likee English sailor" to it instead.

Whenever I am called upon to play items such as "What a friend we have in Jesus", I use the superb arrangements in 'Sixty Songs from Sankey' by Charles Cleall. These versions impart musical dignity to the otherwise trivial harmonies that detract from the sense of the words.

Many are now 'classics', on the lines of 'O Lord my God', which often appears in a debased form in certain hymnals. (It is entirely a modern item and has no relation to any Russian or Scandinavian piece, despite certain claims made.) These items are certainly much better than many that are published as being 'modern' in hymn books often discussed on this board.

Barry Williams

Are you sure, Barry? Wikipedia (I know, not necessarily greatly scholarly!) has a very impressive and detailed account of the hymn's origins:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_Great_Thou_Art_%28hymn%29

The original Swedish words are (allegedly) here:
http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1118653

I have looked at my notes, which I should have done before! I am grateful for the correction. It shows the danger of writing from memory. I heard a lecture about the piece at a meeting of the Baptist Church Music Society in 1967, when many such numbers were very carefully analysed, including the offerings of Mr Beaumont.

The 'sham' of the piece is not the words but the oft quoted origins as a Russian Contakion. There are several hymn books which attribute both music and words to Stuart Hine, when, quite clearly, he wrote neither, (save the tawdry, sentimental verses that stand apart in paucity of expression.)

It is interesting to note that Stuart Hine often claims the entire copyright of a work that is well beyond any copyright and that the original version is much finer than his. The only copyright that can appertain is the translation and even that looks, on the basis of the Wiki article, suspect. At least the piece is more effective in its orignal pitch, rather than the re-harmonised and transposed versions that now abound in many publications.

What a pity it is that Stuart Hine's modern paraphrased version has acheived the fame that should rightly be attributed to others. The copyright licensing authorities take every penny they can on the incorrect basis that Mr Hine wrote the lot when the work is far from original. (The same could be said for Sidney Carter's 'Lord of the Dance' - another piece owing much elsewhere, yet often attributed as an original these days.)

Thank you, Stephen, for your timely correction.

Barry Williams

Hello organists! I've never looked at these threads before, normally restricting myself to adult learners or viva piano - being my areas. However I do sing in a church choir and have loved reading the threads about selecting supposedly popular modern happy clappy "worship songs" etc to appeal to the young and unchurched. Our new-ish vicar has installed a screen the the "family Service" and each week I see people cringe as they raise their embarrassed faces to the large font screen embellished with child-like illustrations. Give me a well written tune and words that need a little pondering anytime.

Talking of Camberwell: I HATE the practice of lurching up a semitone or tone for the last verse of a hymn, however I have made an exception for Camberwell. (No more than it deserves!)
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/18692176/Last%20ve...0Camberwell.pdf

I am with you, Stephen, about taking the last verse of an hymn up a semi-tone. However, the exception proves the rule, for one of my favourite CDs is of a professional octet at St John The Divine, New York, with Dorothy Papadakos on the organ. She accompanies exquisitely and improvises up a semi-tone for each of the last three verses in Adeste Fidelis. It is done brilliantly and is spine tingling, but this is not a just few chords - they are proper interludes.

"....each week I see people cringe as they raise their embarrassed faces to the large font screen embellished with child-like illustrations."

Should anyone be made to cringe in this way? Is someone, somewhere, telling the clergy that this is the way to fill churches and convert souls?

Barry Williams

This practice, and the use of appalling hymns 'songs' is becoming so widespread and consistent I can only think it is being driven by clergy training colleges. Does anybody know?

Maybe those responsible live such cloistered lives they just don't have a clue what is happening in the parishes. Of course, anyone who only ever works/worships in cathedrals could be forgiven for thinking that all was well.

SB

I'm a relatively recent churchgoer- started going last November, but been every possible week (barring weddings at the wrong end of the country and being away on holiday) since about May, the quality of the music is massively important to me, and I would certainly attend far less regularly at a church where the music was either ropey or too modern (and probably would only have gone out of duty before getting married, rather than out of a desire to go...). The music isn't the only reason for going now, but before I really felt at home in the church, it was something to look forward to.

We're very lucky that our church (sadly not our parish church) has a fantastic organist (recent voluntaries include Mulet Carrillon-Sortie), excellent choir and a stunning acoustic. The director of music is also one of the churchwardens, so is clearly very involved in the parish. I also get the feeling that the Priest in Charge has a strong musical background, from the quality of his singing at evensong and where singing is required in the communion service.

This church isn't a Cathedral (but there are probably smaller cathedrals around) and is in a small town (approx 12,000 inhabitants, but regularly gets 100+ at the main family service (probably nearer 200 other than during the summer when the choir is on holiday!). Most of the hymns used are traditional, few are recent and with the choir are generally well sung. Think there might be a pattern here (although the town is pretty traditional - being famous for "killing" a Macdonalds by not using it...)

"..although the town is pretty traditional - being famous for "killing" a Macdonalds by not using it..."

You cannot hide your light under any bushel. The town is indeed famous for finshing McDonalds off: http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article...healthy-town.do

Equally it is famous for a fine standard of church music that is inclusive. The choir is huge and happy, (but not clappy). It is wonderful to read about it. (Choir as well as McDonalds!)

Barry Williams

I wonder if you would explain the first bit? Are you choosing to attend a church that isn't your parish church, or do you mean your church has a more classical music tradition than the parish church?
Do you attend the church where you enjoy the music or are there other factors in your choice of church?

The fact that it is a 'traditional' town means it will attract incomers with a certain outlook who will, as I think jod implied in another thread, buy into Church of England PLC and the associated 'heritage' stuff (although it sometimes backfires and you find those who enjoy traditional architecture but object to things like church bells and cockerels crowing!)

I prefer traditional too, but even my OH feels excluded and sidelined if I drag himhe accompanies me to a cathedral service and a choir sings the psalm etc.