but is this guy playing in the 'original baroque style' and if he is, is he good at it/mediocre or no good at all?

I can't tell

he sounds better than me at playing Allemande that's for sure

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EtPyVqG3aQ...feature=related

....... left handed, ho no
....... Do i like his playing? ....... I do not think i do.
....... but did not hear it all.
....... Don't know if i know what original baroque style is ....... not sure.
....... Is this one you are playing then?

I am at the moment doing Allemande with my teacher (the first bit this guy is playing) but I like the way this 'chap' plays it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAcHm89P5bg

Ho yes, thats better isn't it.
........ right handed ....... obviously the reason for it!

Have not done it before ---- but how do you put the u-tube reference on here. Sorry, it would be fun to be able to do this some times.

when you are watching a youtube video just 'copy to your computer clipboard' what's written in your internet browser address bar at the top (you know, highlight it and then right click and copy), then come here and post a reply or new thread, click on the icon at the top of the window where you are typing your reply where there is the 'earth with the chain link' and you get a window appearing, where you should first delete anything in the bar that might be there, then click in the blank bar and 'paste' (right click and paste) the contents you copied to your clipboard earlier on from the youtube video address bar.

click ok, you'll get another window, repeat process, click ok again, and your link will appear in your post.

am I making any sense??

Have you seen this jojo

http://youtu.be/h2Nh078vBgM

off topic i know, but tiny tiny violin.




yes thanks i think i actually did it

you did it!


and what about THIS tiny violin?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOY2SFbikN0

..... and this one

http://youtu.be/Q8H-CTeX
........ sounds like electric!!!!!!

sorry to take so long ..........computer playing up.


Is Allamande one of your favourites, or did teacher choose it?

I do like your paganini one now, i did not at first, but have changed my mind, i think it was the beginning that put me of .... not sure why. But tis nice!

The first guy is playing at lower pitch, and with gut strings, but pulls the rhythm round a bit more than I would find comfortable: the second guy is using a higher pitched instrument, but is also being careful to moderate his use of vibrato, and his rhythm is tighter and more coherent.

Historically informed performance practice would have baroque music played on instruments which as near as possible replicate those of the time in which the music was written - for violins and violas I understand this to mean, a longer neck, gut strings, and none of the scaffolding players seem to jam under their chins these days. Vibrato would be used only as a colouring - being variable both in speed and amplitude, and strings being of gut, tuning can be a bit temperamental. Bows are also differently built and held, I think - but I'm no strings expert. The sound of baroque strings is thinner but also clearer than that of modern instruments, and intonation has to be absolutely spot on - very little vibrato means you can't fudge tuning to anything like the same extent. Trills in Bach's time would be upper note first, though in the very early baroque lower first. Rhythm would be kept such that a definite pulse can be picked out, though some rubato is thought acceptable within that. Players would expect to have to provide some ornamentation to the written music - though in the case of Bach, I think maybe he tended to write out what he wanted to feature - though trills on cadences would still be assumed.

Does it matter, one way or the other? Possibly not, in that both the HIP and modern-has-to-be-best proponents have their followings. I happen to prefer HIP because I can hear the counterpoint more clearly when players don't muck about with rhythm too much, or layer over a thick film of uniform vibrato.

very interesting to read - thank you.
So is there a difference between modern baroque and old baroque.
I do not know much about it, but thought that baroque was baroque ---- if you see what i mean.
But does the intonation not have to be spot on any way, this is what i am taught.

The baroque era covers a huge timespan, especially if you compare it with, for instance, the Classical era. By early baroque, I would mean around 1620 - ish - and convention tends to put the end of the Baroque era around about 1750-ish - depending on the composer, because it is to do with writing style, not absolute dates. In the very early baroque, composers were rather wildy experimental, and a formal structure of pieces was still very much evolving: you tend to get one long continuous piece of music with subsections, where later the music is divided into movements in some way. Those subsections would tend to have some sort of underlying continuous thread through them, but changing in mood and rhythm - hard for me to explain without providing numerous examples. In later baroque music you start to hear deliberate use of dissonance in order to provide some relief in the form of resolution - it's there in the earlier music too, but not as blatant - and then having trills start on the upper note, with an initial pause on the first turn, announces the coming of the cadences. Modern players, used to playing music from later eras, when different conventions apply, don't always realise how the baroque music was intended to be heard - and whilst that might seem not to matter all that much, if they do at least inform themselves about historical performance, they'll get something from the music they'd otherwise miss.

Sorry, it's dense stuff. I happen to be a bit interested in it....

And yes, if you want to expose poor playing, give a musican baroque music to play - it really does need to be absolutely in tune.

thank you anacrusis that was an excellent post from you
what I was interested about was... if the guy in the youtube video was actually replicating a 'baroque performance' and was he doing an acceptable job of it? (as I can't judge a baroque performance not being good in the first place in recognising if they are 'really' sticking to whatever standard they are supposed to )


I wonder why my teacher gave me Allemande as my next piece then


to answer Delicato question: it was totally my teacher's suggestion to do this piece but I happen to like it anyway.

Listen to Rachel Podger!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5ZG9ZF3EZI

And while you're at it, her E major Gavotte is amazing! (you have to listen right to the end)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMrQJShbIfk

hanks for answering.
I like baroque as well, so thats fine.
The only bit i do not really understand is the above. Maybe i can see what you are saying, but, really all violin playing needs to be really in tune. Otherwise it is out of tune and sounds terrible. This is why teacher spends such a lot of time working on intonation. What you are saying almost suggests that if the music is not baroque you can just about get away with it being not "perfect". Have i understood this correctly? If so, i would have to disagree here ........ i like things to be in tune, no mater what.

That left hander looks so wrong

Yes Rachel Podger is a great exemplar of Baroque violin playing, and also Andrew Manze

Here you can see them both and you can see the baroque bow, and fiddles. Also note the interplay between them and the decoration that was not written into the score...beautiful

Edit: Had another look at the left hander, and he is indeed playing baroque style, chin off, and using a baroque bow. Interesting guy, but can't seem to find anything else about him.

Meanwhile, thinking about chin off I looked for Sigiswald Kuijken - interesting clip here of La Petite Bande featuring him on baroque violin

And this is wonderful - baroque viola da spalla
and La Petite Bande again with the viola da spalla playing Vivaldi

Rachel Podger is wonderful - I've seen her live twice, and she puts such joy into her playing, it's totally magical. Andrew Manze is more of a maverick, but I love his playing too, and all the more since I understand he's not done the standard musical education, having studied Classics at university. . Sigiswald Kuijken is the man who first convinced me that violin music could appeal to my ears: I'd been brought up on a diet of heavy vibrato and slushy romantic playing, and whilst that's fine for its genre, it upsets my ears, which are relatively limited in what they can take: I've always got on better with clearer harmony and less emphatically emotional overlay in music. I happened one day to have a blank cassette tape (remember those ?) in my radio when a recording of Sigiswald playing a Corelli opus V violin sonata came on air, in 1984, and taped it: I was spellbound by his ornamentation, the clean sound, and still such warmth in his playing. I've seen him live too - he was giving a performance lecture in Cologne's Musikhochschule, and he was witty and erudite.

What do I mean about the intonation? Well - if you play with heavy vibrato, and miss the note initially, it can be fudged aright in a way which cannot be done if there is no vibrato, by using the wiggle in sound to find the note. The other factor is that the harmony in later music tends to have far denser texture, again allowing a player to fudge a bit, relatively unnoticed in the overall sound. Baroque music relies in part on the use of overtones (harmonics produced by playing certain intervals, also called Tartini tones) to amplify and enrichen its sound, and to get those, you really do have to be in tune too.

I see what you mean, but yes i understand about the vibrato bit, although using this to cover up bad intonation is touchy, as cannot fudge intonation with my teacher! ....... dam.

But, i think you still have to be in tune with what ever music you play, wether it has harmonics, dense textures or not. Sorry, but i am not being difficult ..... really not, i just cannot see that poor or even slightly bad intonation is acceptable. Perhaps we are talking from different perspectives. Perhaps you are trying to tell me that in baroque music bad intonation is more obvious, although, now i have said that, any violinist with great trained ears (like my teachers) would spot bad intonation in what ever you play. (just my luck!).