Can't remember if I have posted on this topic before.. isn't old age great

Anyway, the time has come to introduce one or two new Eucharistic Settings at our place. Having grown bored of the insipid Murray setting, I would really like to do something decent musically. The quire are up for most things, as is the organist However, whatever is chosen must work for congregational singing also.

Any recommendations?... Thank you

I am so glad that you have raised this point. There is a dearth of good settings. The Murray is a re-worked version of the Latin Ordinary from about 1951. It is extremely well written and durable, if a little boring after a long while.

There is nothing that matches it, which is why some folk have tried to use Merbecke or Martin Shaw's Folk Mass for the new words.

There is a version of Series III set to the Missa de Angelis which is rather good, though perhaps not everyone's cup of tea. Apart from that I have found the range of settings including a congregational part rather poor.

It seems to be the Gloria that is the least satisfactory, for that is where the greatest verbal alterations have been made.

The rubric permits the use of BCP settings and I do wonder whether that is not the best option.

Barry Williams

Are you using Modern Rite or Traditional Rite?

I've always liked Rutter for Modern Rite and Shaw for Traditional Rite, although I'm sure you could adapt Shaw for Modern Rite.

I haven't a clue! How can I tell? Everything is CW down our way - does that come in two flavours?

Yep! One complete with Thees and Thous the other with You all the way through.

So how would the normal Gloria / Sanctus / Benedictus / Acclamations / Agnus differ between the two flavours?

If you have the Black Holy Communion Common Worship book Order one has the Traditional Worship words starting on p59

Gloria is on p63
Sanctus is within the Eucharistic Prayers
(as is benedictus)
Agnus Dei p 75

One caveat I've just noticed this is a sample booklet, presumably one DrD was given when training so page numbers may vary a little.

Fortunately his theological library hasn't made it it into the loft in its entirity as although he's prepared to make a leap of faith from the top of the A-frame ladder, given my ability to have accidents, I am not! Most of the Service books are still in the study. However I couldn't put my hands on complete Common Worship immediately... now if you wanted two copies of the Edward VIth prayer books however that would have been another thing as both my set and his set sit side by side! (Could also oblidge with New testament in Greek, though he's the Biblical Greek scholar not me!)

"....I'm sure you could adapt Shaw for Modern Rite."

I advise against this for copyright reasons. Martin Shaw is still in copyright. (He died on 24th october 1958.) The Folk Mass was arranged for Series III in the early 1970s. Shortly after his widow died permission was withdrawn and copies were no longer available.

Merbecke has been dead for a bit longer. Organist Publications has a version of Merbecke for the Common Worship words, with all the various responses set out.

Barry Williams

For CW, one of the best settings i've foudn is by Grayston Ives, the 'Salisbury Service' which is avaliable in both full music and 'congregational soprano line only' copies.

If you're after a choral setting which the congregation could 'join in on' - I think there is a Leighton Missa Brevis in D that features a congregational part but is really a choral setting - i'll check in the library when I go to practice later.

For a simple setting, Noel Rawsthorne wrote a quite effective one for Rite A in the 80's, as did Herbert Sumsion

Does anyone else still use Addington these days?

SB

I have a copy in my folder, but we haven't sung it for over 5 years now; we use to use Addington, Wiltshire and something else (something Festival?) but now major on Thorne with Wiltshire for Lent and Advent. I was brought up on Rutter Series III and, when we started using ASB rite (less trendy, forget whether it was A or B) Merbecke.

Thanks all. I have ordered a selection of inspection copies by Shephard, Thorne, Ives, Aston, Rawsthorne and Archer. Must be something in there to excite the quire, and the gathered faithful!

If Shaw was adapted for Series III then the rubrics pertaining to music in Common Worship allow that to be used for orders 1 and 2.

(Checked with hubby last night)

There must be some copies knocking about in a second hand shop somewhere.

Thorne is pleasant. I've sung that, especially the Agnus - very pretty counter-melody for the sopranos (I won't call it a descant the register is wrong). I've sung Shepherd's Addington Service too and liked that. He manages to get the balance between the choir and congregation right.

Merbecke does work with modern words. I still have a lot of time for Merbecke. He took the original rubrics of the 1549 prayer book and came up with something that was musical and fitted them exactly. The fact that we are still using it today speaks volumes.

Think our church uses Thorne sometimes, but also has its own mass setting by the organist which I also really like.

Addington is used here most weeks in our home parish, and the Rector and choir where SBJ plays like it, so we are hoping it will be used there from time to time in the future. It may be rather staid and unexciting, but it is easy for everyone to follow.

Our Rector here likes to use verses from Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord, (in MP and others), but it gets rather repetitive after a while. We also have a less formal setting to Woodlands which is sometimes used for Family Services 'All Age Worship'.

SB

"...staid and unexciting"

Many settings of the Common Worship/ASB/Series III/ICET/ICEL words are indeed staid and unexciting. That may be because the words themselves are rather unexciting. There seems to be little thematic material and even then, good ideas, such as the melodic device in Thorne's Mass of St Thomas, get reworked to death.

The 'Addington' service is to me the nadir, yet it seems to have stood the test of time. I find the Sanctus, in particular, very boring, yet many folk are content to sing it week by week.

'jod' points out that music settings from Series III and ASB may be used. The rubric equally permits the use of settings written for the Book of Common Prayer texts, though for some reason, the clergy seem to avoid using them, even though the words are easy to understand.

I have yet to find a setting that is as musical as Murray's New Peoples' Mass, though that is far from exciting. At least it is not riddled with ineffective consecutives and infelicitous harmony that would attract a 'fail' at Grade One theory.

Does anyone have views on the Common Tones? (i.e. The unchanging responses - e,g, "The Lord be with you", etc.) Many composers set these parts fo the service, but I prefer them sung to plainsong, or somnething like it, to give that timeless quality. Also, retaining one version ensures that they will become well known.

Barry Williams

We use the unchanging tones for the Eucharist prayer, but not for the gospel. As most of our clergy (thankfully those that can't acknowledge this) sing the first section of the eucharist prayer it all links rather well. It's just sad to get to 'ever more praising you and saying' (or variations upon) and launching into Thorne in D rather than something such as Darke in F, but oh well !

Oooh Love Darke in F! Especially as his niece was one of the people who helped teach me to sightsing through osmosis. (In my URC days)

I like the common tones. They work. I love hearing the whole Eucharistic Prayer being entoned that way.

I did the Addington when I was a quire boy, over 30 years ago, so am not really that moved to introduce it at my current place! We also used to do a setting by Philip Tomblings which was a little more lively.

I always found the Murray to be banal. It just goes to show that technical correctness doesn't move the soul.

David Thorne has written two settings, including the recent Trinity Mass so I have included both of those in my shopping list.

Sung responses work well as long as the clergy are not tone deaf (a common problem). At one time the Rector in our local church would sing The Lord is Here, Lift Up Your Hearts, etc. unaccompanied following a prompt from the organ. However, when he retired his replacement would usually end each phrase at least a fifth sharp, (often nearer to a full octave), but he was completely unaware of this, and had to be told; gently. These responses are now said.

SB

"[i]We also used to do a setting by Philip Tomblings which was a little more lively.[i]"

If this a setting of the Series III/ASB words? If so, I would be pleased to have details - publisher etc. I recall a nice setting by Professor Tomblings of the BCP words entitled, I think, Missa Sancti Mathias. He taught harmony and counterpoint at the RAM at one time.

I take your point about the Murray setting, but I find most of the settings of the 'modern' words banal because they are so short on musical ideas, or of competence in handling the few musical ideas that there are.

Does anyone like the very simple setting at the back of the New English Hymnal? It was written by the late Ernest Warrell, with, I think, a clergyman from Devon. Whilst uninspiring, it covers the ground neatly and has some sense of being 'timeless'.

Barry Williams

Yes, we used to do it as part of ASB services in the early 80s. The publisher was Oecumuse if I recall. I see some of their catalogue has been taken over by Fagus Music, so you might have some luck if you contact them in the first instance.

I always felt very sorry for the chap, but it was difficult to listen without raising a smile.

The first note of each Priestly response was usually close enough, but the second (which if I recall in Addington is a second, third and forth higher, consecutively) was always pitched much higher than it should have been, (almost like a yodel), and it just got worse from there.

That was bad enough, but when the organ chimed in with the congregation is was obvious how far out he was.

The same Priest also has an interesting way of singing hymns. He seems to be able to match the pitch of those around him, and modulates his [rather loud] voice when he knows he has hit the right note; but that means that he tends to sing about a beat behind everyone else, which can be rather off-putting when that is all you can hear bellowing out of the PA system.

SB

Thank you for this. Alas, Fagus do not have this item. However, I found Mr Geoffrey Atkinson most helpful and very interesting. His Website is certainly worth a visit.

Barry Williams

I've trained hubby to sing the common tone bits whilst he had a licence (long story). He used to sing them rather well due to his hard work as much as my teaching and at least his tenor voice now has a place in a choral society.

I did start writing a setting suitable for the 'average organist' designed for congregational participation and SATB optional harmonies, but never finished it after we became de-churched.

OK there were the odd parallel fifth and bare-fifth but these were done for effect and not liberally splattered throughout.

The advantage of composing after several years of formal harmony and counterpoint training is you can break rules (just sparingly) and you can look at how far greater composers have done so and got away with it successfully and use that as your model. The trouble is that otherwise one does not have a clue how grating it is to the ear.

My aim if I do resurrect the project is to complete Kyries. Gloria, Sanctus, Benedictus and Agnus plus the extra bits in the Eucharistic prayers.

Eventually I might get around to a Credo.

I enjoy composing, there just are not enough hours in the day!

"The trouble is that otherwise one does not have a clue how grating it is to the ear."

But what if you cannot hear the gratings on paper or even when they are played on the piano? This is why so much modern church music is so ineffective.

"......and you can look at how far greater composers have done so and got away with it successfully and use that as your model."

Yes, but what if you do not know about the great composers? Even worse, what if you write 'music' and proclaim that "it is for use in worship and the great composers have no relevance in our type of music"?

This is what church musicians are having to contend with at present. To break the basic rules one has to know how the harmony works. Consecutives and doublings, for example, sound fine in the hands of Bach, Mozart and Vaughan Williams. (The latter for the spectacularly successful consecutive octaves in a well-known anthem!) Perhaps more importantly, one has to understand how the musical accents fall in a phrase and use that to effect in setting words. Then there is the issue of the range and type of the melody, the rhythm implied by the harmony..........I could go on and on!

It is not new, for the tune 'Sandys' (sung to Teach me my God and king) originally had terrible harmonies, but these were sorted out before they were published. Nowadays, many untrained (but sincere) people think that they can compose. Unfortunately, few have the skill and even fewer have the talent. Sincerity is no substitute for skill.

I am sorry you and your husband have become de-churched, jod. This has happened to many good folk, and often over music.

It takes years to build up a music tradition and one day to destroy it forever.

Barry Williams

I know what you mean Barry! Trust me I can hear them! Exposed octaves, consecutives as opposed to a sparingly used paralled fifth for effect and a deliberately bare fifth at the end of the Kyries for sparseness is diferrent from using them every cadence or every other line!

They did at my last church. The Addington would sometimes have an outing if there was a special service on, but most of the time we endured the *groan* New English Mass (Appleford)

But what do you do with folk that cannot hear them and think, in their ignorant opinion, that these things do not matter? The less musical people tend to know that something is wrong but cannot analyse what it is. Those who have undue confidence in their own ignorance state that these things do not matter if the composer is sincere. Aggghhhhhhh!!!

Quote: "There are none so dangerous as them that do not know what they do not know." (The late Sir Kenneth Cork.)

Barry Williams

Exactly. Sounds like, pardon the pun, we're singing from the same Hymn Sheet'.

I did not do a London Board Theoretical Music A level in 1987 including the inter-board aural test, not did I spend three years reading music and developing an ear, an interest in musicology and various analytical techniques for nothing.

Over the years the ear has become more honed, more aware as a lively mind just tends to bring out those things and I never killed off my higher range hearing. I like to listen to what the rule-breakers achieve as effects, then listen to how out of place they are in a piece of conventional four part harmony.

My other pet hate is the overuse of the Tierce de Picardy. It has become a musical Cliche. What is wrong with finishing with a triumphant minor chord? Please let Aberwystwyth end on a minor chord or a bare fifth and not a Major Chord! Mozart was onto something with that bare fifth at the end of the Kyries in the Requiem they can't have a Picardy third applied!

One of the best exercises for writing good harmony is to write Anglican Chant. By verse 20 one definitely knows if one has a good combination of chords, a decent bass-part and a decent melody!

However I fear not many have the same rigorous training anymore.

Hear, hear!

Concerning bare fifths, am I the only one who finds that the one in Thalben-Ball's well-known Elegy grates? (I suspect I am about to become deafened by murmers of "Yes!")

It is a misprint. I have a recording of him playing it as an encore.

Barry Williams

Thank you, Barry!

Going back to Eucharist settings, my parish recently decided to change our hymnal to Complete Anglican Hymns Old and New (CAHON), which contains a number of settings of the Eucharist. One of them (natch) is Murray, which we currently use.

The holy (and musically interested) vicar, however, would like us to have three settings one the go, for use at different times of the year; and CAHON gives us that. It includes settings by Malcolm Archer (his Missa Simplex) and Margaret Rizza. Both of those I actually rather like, though I'd rather have Darke in F if my choir were up to it.

There's also a setting in CAHON by one Kevin Mayhew which doesn't,sadly, commend itself to me.

All we need now is the funds to buy the ruddy books!

P4

Our harmony copies lasted about 2-3 years before the covers were completely split and ruined. The binding is not fit for purpose, or at least that was the case for the copies we purchased in 2000. A kind chorister paid to have them all casebound properly at a cost of nearly GBP15 per copy, which was nearly the same price as buying them new again! Beware!