I desperately need to work on my tone quality and vibrato. My technique is ok, i can play difficult pieces with little problems but i make a very amateurish tone =/ (goodness knows how i still manage to make a lovely ?8000 violin sound pants ) I hate listening to myself and its getting to the point where i dont want to practise because i end up in tears at how i sound.
My main problems are:
Thin, weak nasal un-violinny tone...
Uncontrolled, tight, tense fast vibrato
Bad intonation

I've decided to forget my pieces, and to some degree my studies, and focus on whatever exercises i can do to help improve these specific problems. I've been doing as-slow-as-possible whole bows... slow vibrato in different rhythms to try gain some more control over it... scales for intonation (not helping...)

Dunno what to try now It's one month till i start at music college and i'm going to sound laughably bad compared to the others!! ARGH! Throw a load of ideas and exercises and studies that may help at me... i will try ANYTHING!

simon fischer 'tone production' dvd

OK, my 10cents...for what they are worth...

Firstly DON'T PANIC. I know it's easy to say (I am the world's best panicker!!) but that just makes everything worse, makes you more tense and will feed back into your tone.

You are going to have a new teacher. You are going to impress them that you are playing the way you are after the time you have been learning. You will continue to improve quickly and delight your teacher. I know you will.

Work on your studies/scales, but just take a deep breath first. And try to smile and breath with your playing as if you were singing. You will hear the difference.

From my last thread, it's clear that I'm not exactly qualified to help... but I think you're worrying too much! You wouldn't have been accepted to music college if you were "laughably bad" compared to everyone else, and considering that some of your classmates have probably been playing for 10 years longer than you have, you really have nothing to be ashamed of And anyway, being tense and self-conscious definitely won't help your tone

Thanks And Jojo i shall take a look at that!
I'm already having lessons with my teacher there, i dont think he's impressed i think hes disappointed i cant help but worry he's thinking how on earth did she get in... she'll never last here....

(far be it from me to be negative )


Plus, i think i might have made the wrong choice with the violin i chose... really do. When i got it nearly 3 months ago the shop said if in a few months time you feel you made the wrong decision i can change it but i'd feel really guilty and like i was 'abandoning' the poor thing >_< i MAJORLY rushed into it and was so excited by this violin that i blocked out considering any others, which i feel really childish for doing. The man in the shop wanted me to take another home to trial and i was just amadant that i wanted this one. The other one i liked was ?5000 so all i could think was "this one is ?8000, so it MUST be better and will last me longer"... which isnt true at all but there we go. silly me

In that case I would be talking to your teacher, he should be setting you the correct things to help your specific problems. Ask the question and be ready to go back a step or 3 (like I am about to do).

You got in, you are not useless. Carry on learning and put your mind to it like you have and you will be fine. Be positive, but work with your teacher.

As for your violin, well I'm not the best to comment (mine was ?750 20 odd years ago and I've already been told by my new teacher that it's a pile of pants - but not as bad as my bow ) but you work in the violin shop. Don't be sentimental, if you think you have made a mistake, do what you need to to put it right.

Be positive.

Have you got access to any decent recording equipment? It might be worth recording yourself at a distance and really listening to your sound as others hear it. I was worried about my sax tone being too edgy and thin until I heard the recording of a recent concert. The reality was that my tone was if anything not edgy and focused enough.

I'm sure you are being overly critical. You are going to a great music college next term, they wouldn't have offered you a place if you couldn't play brilliantly and have great potential.

I had been thinking i was sounding a bit better
But i'd finished the peice i was on, the others he's teaching moved onto bruch after that (he has an order of studies and pieces which weve all gone through) and i was thinking i just know i wont be moved onto bruch, im not as good as them
and i got moved onto a really easy piece...

Well, your teacher's other students have probably played a lot more repertoire than you have since they've been playing violin for so much longer, so they might have already played the easy piece you're working on (and I'm sure it's not actually easy ). You've been progressing really fast compared to most violinists, so maybe now you need a little time to consolidate and work on things you feel you've neglected, like tone. It doesn't mean you're "not as good". Everybody has a different learning curve.

True, thanks

I'm trying to be positive but i think im just panicking as it's so close now

I think this POINT IS REALLY IMPORTANT

you have got there at THE SPEED OF LIGHT Ffliwt!! for GOODNESS GRACIOUS GIRL, TAKE A BREATHER!!!

you know me Ffliwt, I am not 'telling you off', I am saying this as a mother (I could be your mother actually age-wise) and as a 'buddy'! having got to where you are so quickly you are 'bound' to have some 'holes' somewhere that need to patch up, it does not mean you are not good, it means just 'pure simple mathematics' that you have not spent 15 years on the violin like some of the 19 years old around you (or even 11 years!) ok?

now, 'darling Ffliwt' please start being kind to yourself, you 'need it'

xxxxxxx

I wouldn't worry too much about that - it depends what the learning priorities are for you at the moment. I was given the Bruch to work on sections when I had only been playing for about two and a half years, because it contained some aspects that were relevant to what I was learning at the time. The Simon Fischer DVD is very good, but I'd be tempted to suggest discussing it with your teacher as well - you might get more out of it that way.

As for vibrato, it's hard to control it! (I am an expert in not controlling it!) Try metronome practice for a few minutes a day where you set it to sixty, then do one pulse per 4 clicks then two, then three and so on and then back down again. You can do it with hand and arm vibrato. I have found this very effective in "finding" my vibrato when it's got lost

Lastly, I agree with Lilly763 that you have progressed at such a rate that you may need some time for consolidation. I have seen your video, and your tone is lovely!

I just recorded myself...
I'm not AS BAD as i thought
My tone isn't as bad as i thought
My intonation is horrific though!

when close to the instrument you do hear things that don't actually project in your sound. Now hang in there and relax a bit. If you take the self imposed pressure off a little you may start playing more freely as well.

this is so true

last lesson I had before the summer break, I remember putting on this 'disgusted face' saying to my teacher, DID YOU HEAR THAT??? that was yucki!!

he said what?

I said 'that wishy sound from my bow on that last long note' it was yuck!

he said 'no'

you didn't hear it from where you are??

he said: 'didn't you know that you can hear a lot more than your audience can???'

I agree too. String instruments are not exactly forgiving when they are right next to your ear!

I'm not sure I'm qualified to give you advice on what to practice. However. You say you've been moved onto an easier piece. Perhaps this is so that you can concentrate on certain technical aspects? It may help you to know that I am regularly moved back to Twinkle Twinkle (I have a merit at grade 8) so that I can work on stuff like martele, vibrato, etc., without the added complication of tricky shifts, evil positions and that sort of thing.

The mental aspect of learning is at least half the battle, if not more than half. Stay strong, stay committed, keep practising. The technical stuff will come with a bit of work. You've already proved you can do that, and the college believes it too, otherwise they wouldn't have offered you a place. Lastly, know that when you get a compliment from your teacher he really, really means it, because they aren't paid to praise playing that is sub-standard!

Hey Ffliwt! I've was away last night (violining) and have had a busy weekend so I missed this thread. Now that I'm back at home and have cleaned up the 10 (!) piles of regurgitated food the cats left on the floor for me in protest at my absence, I can finally sit down and post some ramblings for you. Here are some things to consider

1. Why do violinists continuously insist on bashing themselves around the head with baseball bats?
It is amazing how many of us on viva strings constantly yammer on about how how dreadful we are. We have terrible intonation, dreadful bowing, we sound like a rabbit on helium and so on....We are constantly beating ourselves up about how shockingly bad we sound. We are never happy. Why? Because we are our own arch critics. We know ourselves and our failings better than anyone else (with the possible exception of our teachers - for those of us lucky enough to have a teacher). We are very demanding of ourselves and have very high standards. If we weren't we would be more than happy to sound pants and would in fact totally ignore the fact that we sound pants and just think we were the greatest violinists on the planet. Then we would never get any better.
A bit of self-flagellation is a good thing but don't forget to identify some good points about your playing. When you've recorded a piece, listen to it and look for the good things or the things that have improved FIRST. Then look for the next thing to improve.

2. Who are we comparing ourselves to anyway?
When we play we use other violinists as reference points. We don't tend to pick people who are at the same level as us to compare ourselves to.... oh no, we are so used to hearing Perlman, Sarah Chang, Julia Fischer, Maxim Vengerov not to mention Heifetz, Joachim and co... that we are using them as a frame of reference. That is unrealistic. Next time you go looking on youtube (this applies to all the viva strings people) don't just look for the "greats" playing, look for ordinary people playing and listen with that same critical ear that you reserve for yourself. Ffliwt, if you haven't seen the videos Jojo linked to on another thread where students at conservatoire in Utrecht had their violins set up properly they are well worth a watch. I hope Jojo will pop up and provide a link. There is a lot of talking on the videos but the clips of the students playing are very very revealing... considering these people have been selected from all over Europe to study there, I'm absolutely amazed at the way they play and the "interesting" sounds they make.

3. Bag of nerves before a big step in your life?
It's a big step - you're going to conservatoire. Of course you are nervous. I was jittery the entire summer before I went to university. I didn't know what it would be like. I was worried about how hard the work would be. I had no idea how I would match up to other students on the course. I didn't know whether I would make any friends.... and so on.... I couldn't sleep for a week before. A lot of this angst and worry is typical pre-college nerves and I bet there are thousands and thousands of young people feeling exactly like you at this moment in time (never mind the nervous wait for A-level results).

4. You think your teacher is disappointed in you and he gave you an easy piece
It isn't his job to be disappointed. It is his job to get on and teach whatever shows up at his door. He probably isn't disappointed at all. Even if he is - tough - he's getting paid. I think a lot of teachers at this level just get on with the teaching and really don't show emotions or praise their students. I know it's hard, but I think they expect advanced students to motivate themselves and not need someone telling them they are good. As for the easy piece, instead of the Bruch.. I would be more concerned if he just went through this set list of studies and pieces that you describe and never tailored the pieces to the needs of the students. What is the easy piece and is it clear which particular aspects of technique he is teaching? Easy pieces are great - you can really focus in on improving technique or experiment with weird and wonderful positions and shifts.

5. Your intonation is bad; your don't like the sound you are making; the vibrato has gone berserk etcetc
I would recommend some slow practise of studies like Wohlfahrt that are tuneful and not too difficult. Similarly the Mazas Special Studies are fun to play. If you have the Simon Fischer Basics book the intonation section there is excellent and explains how to pitch each note - for example by comparing to open strings. He gives examples where you play the study but leaving out the majority of the notes - only letting the Ds sound for example and comparing them to the open strings.
Vibrato takes a long time to be really secure and I mean longer than 4 and a bit years! I wouldn't stress out about it too much - it will come.
As for the nasaly sound which you later said didn't sound too bad on the recording, I suggest discussing your violin with the teacher and ask him whether he thinks the violin is suitable - has he played it and if so, what does it sound like then? Try a change of strings (or a few changes until you are happy). Check the soundpost hasn't moved. Does the violin have the best bridge it can have? Is the bow ok - I ask because I was very unhappy last summer and thought I sounded terrible for a couple of weeks and the next thing, the bow just exploded in my face - it had basically completely and utterly given up the ghost. Sufficient rosin on the bow or too much?

Try to relax and have some fun too. Get together with others if you can and play "undemanding" music so that you can just think about making that beautiful sound you want.
I have wittered on far too much - this is going to be the longest post ever. I have more to say but I am going to shut up until later.

What a great post - I have copied it to cheer myself up with on the odd occasion I stop thinking I'm brilliant
More seriously, is your estimate of the time it takes to learn about vibrato pretty standard? I have had constant problems establishing a good vibrato and it gives me immense tension sometimes. It works up to a point, and I can "practice it" into being ok, but it has never come easily to me. If it really takes more than a few years there may be hope yet! I've always had a suspicion that it's just a knack that I'm somehow never going to get.

I think the link that jojo referred to was this one http://www.violinistinbalance.nl/index.html, and it is as you say very interesting and revealing.

I have yet to read the last few rplies (will do now)

BUT I HAD A GOOD LESSON TODAY
my teacher kept complimenting my INTONATION? and told me its much more advanced than others in my year? he also told me im the first to have managed to finish the evil 2nd position study hehehe and
IM DOING THE BRUCH

i had to look as cool and unsurprised/thrilled as i could when he told me i was starting the Bruch, and pretend that i had no idea that was what was next to move on to...



Edit: Thanks Organistin great post thankyou

There you go!

The Bruch is gorgeous - enjoy!

I think with the vibrato some people take longer than others, but the majority of people need a good long time to get it really secure and automatic, never mind being able to vary it to suit the type of music being played and so on. I can't remember how long it took me because I was little when I started.
I am sure there is hope for you! Anyway you got a really good mark at grade 8 and if your vibrato wasn't up to scratch you wouldn't have because it is needed at that level. Just keep at it.

And yes, that is the correct video link.

See?? We told you!!! Just keep going, hope this tells you that you can do this. And I can foresee you overtaking the others at some point, with the speed you progress!!

I think I must be a slow learner, (very frustrating ) and I'm a long way from automatic!




Well done, really pleased for you Ffliwt