Had a slightly frustrating situation today. A pupil recently started who has primarily learned through Scots fiddle lessons but wants to learn Classical violin. I was unsure about any gaps in her technique so had suggested a tutor that covers all the keys required for Grade 2. Today she came back and said she didn't want to use that book as it has a lot of fiddle tunes and she could be doing those in fiddle class. Fair enough but I wanted to make sure we didn't miss any techniques or keys. I said that at this early level books tend to have folk tunes but this is phased out as you get more advanced but she insisted she doesn't want to do any fiddle stuff at all. I should just say that the book in question also has a lot of Classical tunes - it's not all folk tunes! The lady then said she had ordered a book over the internet and showed me a piece she wants to learn. I'm not sure if I'm being perfectly reasonable in feeling I should choose how to teach her or if I need to be more flexible in my approach Not sure how to proceed from here

Would it be feasible to use the tutor book you have suggested but leave out the fiddle tunes?

Pupils buying their own books often land in trouble because they can?t gauge the level of the material and usually end up with stuff that is too hard for them (the classic one for piano is well-meaning parents buying ?easy? Disney books, which turn out to be anything but). I think you could let her have a go at the tune she wants to learn, but be prepared to simplify it or lift out a few easier sections to try first if she struggles.

I think there has to be some flexibility, especially with adult learners, but they have to be prepared to accept guidance from the teacher too, and can?t expect to set their own agenda entirely. Sometimes you have to be a bit devious and let them ?get away with? missing out certain things. When they subsequently struggle with something as a result, you can gently guide them back to the bit of technique or whatever that they have missed.

With your lady, you may have to pick and choose from the tutor book to find pieces and exercises that suit the gaps in her technique that become apparent as she goes on.

If she can?t or won?t accept your suggestions, then there may come a parting of the ways...

Thanks for the advice. I'm still smarting over the incident so I'll need to calm down first (and breath! ) and hopefully I'll be able to think more objectively about how to proceed from here. To be brutally honest I'm not looking forward to next week's lesson at all right now

I think you need to calm down and take a step back from the situation. This pupil has not questioned your teaching methods, she has simply stated that she doesn't want to cover a particular type of repertoire that, as she sees it, she is already learning elsewhere. That is neither totally illogical (and she probably has a finite amount of time to devote to music so doesn't want to be "going over the same ground"), nor a slight on your teaching, so I really don't think there's any need for you to be "smarting".

Adult learners are generally likely to be more self-directed and whilst they do have to learn to accept some amount of guidance (otherwise there's no point them coming for lessons!) they will often have a clear idea of what they want to cover and that is ignored at the teacher's peril. What does this woman do professionally? Is she used to being in control of other people? Even if not, it is probably a long time since she was in a "pupil" role and it will take a little time for her to adjust - but it will be harder if you don't take her wishes into account.

I'm quite sure you can cover the same technique/s, and certainly the same keys, using repertoire that isn't fiddle music and I think that would be the best approach for the moment. In addition, make sure she understands your rationale; that skipping work in a tutor book potentially means skipping specific techniques, not just skipping particular "tunes".

So stop taking it personally, and I'm sure things will settle down over the next few weeks - or it will become clear that the relationship isn't going to work.

Remember: a pupil having their own ideas of what they want (or don't want) to do, while it may show naivety, is not in itself a criticism of you. (Perhaps also remembering that she's the one with the chequebook and, in terms of what she wants to get out of the lessons, she does in fact know best!!)

I agree very much with this, especially with the Disney comment: and I love this "Sometimes you have to be a bit devious" which is also true. I don't have many adult pupils, but I've had a smattering over the years. And I've learnt to roll with the punches a bit - and in fact I'd rather have someone who'll tell me what they want to do. We can discuss it, and find a way round to it. Better than having very little response at all which I found difficult to deal with in an adult.

Yes, I agree with this. There's so much music out there for violin, it should be easy enough to find something that doesn't include fiddle tunes, and if your student is going to feel happier with that, I think that's the way to go. But I wouldn't discourage her from bringing along pieces she'd like to learn, as long as she is prepared to accept that some of them will not be attainable for her yet, and she can return to them later, further down the line.

It can be difficult to guage gaps in technique when you take on a new student who has learnt elsewhere. When I have done this, I have tended to mix and match pieces / styles / techniques / books so they get a smattering of everthing, and that usually gives us a place to start from, and also gives me an idea of the kind of music they are going to enjoy playing. (I loan out books for this purpose, so they don't need to take out a bank loan!)

I once took along a piece of music to my piano lesson, which I thought was the height of wonderful piano writing. At the time, it was a little beyond my standard, but my teacher said that students will often work that bit harder at something they are desperate to learn, and let me learn it (which I did). Our job, as teachers, is to differentiate between what we think pupils can (sometimes with a push) learn, and what is simply going to end us as too much of a struggle and - ultimately - be discouraging. At least your lady has looked into music, and is willing to buy it, so - gently guided by suggestions from you - I'm sure you will manage to find something that she wants to play, and that you feel will fill in gaps in technique. Good luck!

I agree that you need to stop taking this personally. I wonder why it's upset you so much? Has the woman hit a nerve? Have you been concerned that your teaching approach is inflexible? Are you having a low confidence spell? She hasn't (from what you've written) criticised you, just asserted a preference. Why has that upset you so much?

I think maybe you do need to be more flexible. Perhaps it would be an idea to have a chat about what this student wants out of classical lessons. Does she want to take grade exams - in which case learning a bunch of scales is obviously required. Is it sight reading that she struggles with? If she wants to learn more technique, bowing, vibrato, position changes then really does it hugely matter what order she studies keys in. Are you sure she's grade two? You didn't say how you knew to pitch at that level. Could you give her Moon River or something similar from the grade 2 syllabus and get her to play it. Most people know the tune (I would think) so it won't totally be sight reading.

With my teacher we started with D major as it fits nicely under the fingers, then added other scales from the syllabus. But when I decided I wanted to learn a couple of Klesmer pieces that were floating around in my head he was happy to teach me the new scales and work on them with me, even though they were initially a little out of my reach. When he turns up for a lesson and I have a new piece I've decided I want to learn he will spend time on with with me, maybe advising on fingering, or bowing, and play it through with me to give me a feeling for how it could sound. Then we do what ever it is we'd got planned for the lesson.

I really appreciate his flexibility. I'm sure I drive him nuts with my occasional "I wanna learn this piece" starts to the lesson, but he uses what ever the piece is to add something to my education, bowing in particular at the moment. Unless the book she's bought is wildly advanced for her, there should be something you can work on in there.

Also maybe point out to your student that playing a simpler tune means that she can really focus on technique as she can relax a bit more about reading the notes.

I hope you calm down, and maybe take some time to think why this has upset you so much.

I wish it was a case of my having only a spell of low confidence but the fact is I've always had very low confidence and self esteem and am very insecure. I am aware it's a major fault of mine that I take things personally and find it difficult to "let go" - I genuinely am trying but I find it really difficult. I have however improved massively from how I used to be...

I've had two teachers who were at opposite ends of the spectrum. The first teacher took it as a personal affront if I wanted to play something I'd chosen instead of something they'd chosen. In fact I was never allowed to do so - my teacher always made sure that lesson time ran out before we ever got to a piece I'd taken in. It was a difficult relationship and eventually it ended. The second teacher was completely the opposite. At one point I asked if it was OK to learn my own choice of pieces and my teacher looked quite bemused that I could think it might be a problem. I think the key thing was that I always took in pieces of an appropriate level, never lower and occasionally higher. As someone else has said, it's amazing what you can learn when you love the piece and want to play it badly enough.

I'm sure your new student doesn't have the slightest inkling that she's done anything wrong. Try and think of yourselves as both being on the same side rather than adversaries, exploring new music together. My teacher never said as much, but I often got the impression that they were quite glad to have students learn their own pieces because it meant a more varied diet for them to have to listen to.

Just a thought - which has worked for me in the past. If the pupil wishes to play classical pieces does he/she have a favourite composer in mind? If so, you can usually do a "deal" ie you suggest a suitable piece by this composer, then when they've mastered this, perhaps a look at their suggestion?

Best wishes

Dorabella x

My teachers sometimes learn music they didn't know before because of things I buy and take to lessons.
Mostly I play what's suggested by my teachers but they are both open to new ideas or suggestions from me.
I think that this can become more of a normal thing as you become more advanced and it's good to learn the independence of choosing what to play. I would always go with my teacher's guidance and sometimes what I bring is not the right thing for that particular point in my learning.

I didn't state my preferences quite so definately at the first lesson but once we started doing pieces beyond the 1st beginner tutor book I explained to my sax teacher that I'd really rather not play Bach or other Baroque on the sax as if I wanted to play Baroque I'd do that on flute. Hence we played jazz, swing, modern pieces, pink panther, poirot theme etc. and covered the notes & technique issues that way. I guess it might be a bit harder on violin to avoid folk as a lot of folk tunes are easily available so get included in tutor books but I can see where your pupil is coming from.

(Only teasing!)

Signing on to eat a massive slice of humble pie. I suppose basically I didn't want to face up to the fact I was taking it personally that my pupil didn't want to use the book I suggested and I didn't want to face up to the fact that I need to become more flexible with my approach. I've found this thread more painful than any other because I've been faced with these aspects of my teaching or approach to my teaching which I need to change and didn't want to so I became defensive. I just want to apologise for this and thank those posters who did make me aware of these things. I will humbly read over what everyone has said and try to take everyone's advice on board. I suppose it won't be easy trying to become more flexible and easy going with my approach but it'll be worth it in the long run.

I would be equally bemused - I'm always pleased when pupils bring in pieces they want to learn, even children, as it shows they're interested. And I wanted to add that I don't see anything wrong with learning something at a lower level sometimes - it means you can concentrate on other aspects of playing (e.g. subtleties of expression, quality of tone, etc.) without being stretched to your limit by the technical demands of the music.


That's great - and I hope it helps your teaching in the long run - but don't beat yourself up about it.

There are times when we all need to face something we don't want to admit about ourselves.
You might need to watch just how flexible this student wants you to be and make choices about how much is reasonable. Though flexibility and listening to what students want is good there can be a fine line between that and your advice and guidance being written off.

I don't know what book your pupil brought along, or what books you use already, but one little volume that I've found useful for musically literate adult violin & viola pupils is Elgar's 6 Easy Pieces. It goes up to about the level you want in terms of keys and technique, and is clearly by a 'proper' composer. The piano accompaniments are also very playable (I'm a rubbish pianist and I can make them sound nice) and when put together, really do sound like real music. Also, it will tackle very different things from the stuff she's been doing in her fiddle classes.

Maybe combine these with some Kayser studies. As an adult, she'll probably be up for some undisguised technical work to complement her pieces.

Good luck!

Thats a bit harsh isn't it?
Perhaps the student just does not want to play fiddle tunes - i think that does not sound unreasonable. I would not want a fiddle tutor book either. Would probably play one tune then be totally bored.

I agree with not beating yourself up about it. If this is a facet of your personality, it would be a shame to think that you've got to change it if it doesn't normally cause you any problems. Some people like being spoonfed, to others it will come more naturally to be independent, and probably most are somewhere in-between - that applies to all aspects of life, doesn't it? Neither way is necessarily right or wrong... just different, and each pupil and teacher have to find their match. The relationship I had with my second teacher was far more rewarding, hopefully mutually, but presumably other pupils found a rewarding relationship with my first, less flexible, teacher, even though I didn't.

I think that her concerns would be quite sensible - as I get the impression that classic violin playing is very different to scottish fiddle playing in technique. If she's playing a tune that sounds "folky" it might be very easy to slip into the more familiar way of playing rather than working on the techniques you want... Probably difficult to articulate for her though...