I have an 8 year old student sitting grade 4 this term. He has chosen the Prelude by Heller. He plays it beautiful with excellent phrasing and dynamics. He has quiet small hands and can sometimes stretch an octave depending on where he sits on the stool. His feet cannot reach the floor when he sits on my stool at my piano ....however he can sometimes reach the floor at the examination centre on there stool and piano.

This has created a problem.... mainly the use of pedal.... we have tried pedalling which can be achieve if he sits right off the stool but then he is not at a good angle to play dynamics and phrasing and chords. If he tries to pedal the right way while sitting he looks like he will fall off the stool.

What shall we do..... he plays this piece well enough... shame not to continue somehow as the exam is less than 2 months now.

any ideas....

dont the say somewhere that younger ones who cant reach the pedal wont be penalised

i'm playing that piece too.what clarinetlover said is true.he wont be penalized somehow.

It sounds ok doesn't it without the pedal. Maybe we could just pedal those that are marked in.... what do you think I like it piano...

anyone else know this piece

I started piano lessons when I was really little and I used a thing that sat on top of the pedals and had pedals on it that my feet could reach. So when I pressed one of those pedals, the actual one connected to the piano would work. I have no idea what its called or where you get them from, but it worked for me!

Hi Frumpybabe,

I too am playing this piece for my exam. It's lovely.

Just an idea if you really want to use the pedal.

I saw a small young boy (about 8)play a piece requiring pedal and he too couldn't reach.

What his teacher did was put a thick hard back book on the pedal at an angle so his feet could touch it and then he could use the pedal !

It depends on how you feel about it I suppose. But it worked for him.
Then again, If he won't be penalised then it won't matter either.

Fiona

We have done that thick book thing, still a delayed reaction doesnt sound right. Still sounds better without pedal at the moment. Practising both ways at the moment.

Oh well. Not to worry.

I'm sure it will work out ok.

If it's sounding good without the pedal, then maybe you should spend all your efforts on making it as good as you can that way.

It's probably not a bad piece to play without pedal.
The problem is when your'e used to a pedal then you automatically use it.
It's almost like a missing limb without the pedal when you just use it all the time.

Good luck !

I seem to recollect that the ABRSM says somewhere that pedalling should be part of performances from Grade 5 upwards.

So, not pedalling in Grade 4 seems to me to be OK provided the musical interpretation still works.

The regulations state that:

QUOTE

Discretion in the use of the pedals will be taken into account, although candidates in the lower Grades who cannot reach the pedals easily will not be penalized. Similarly, candidates whose hands are too small to play the music as written will not be penalized for 'spreading' chords or omitting occasional notes at wide stretches provided the result is musically satisfactory.

It is, however, worth noting that the examiners do mark from the pass mark and add/deduct accordingly: not straight from 30. Thus although they may not penalise someone for not using the pedal they may not add the marks that they may have added if they feel it is more satisfactory with the pedal (I'm not saying that this is what happens, just giving a pedantic interpretation of the regulations). Surely someone who can't reach the pedal can't really be given as many marks as someone who uses it: just because they can't reach it doesn't imply that they would be able to use it if they could reach it (in fact probably the converse because if they can't reach it the chances are they've never practised using it....).

I don't mean to sound judgemental but it seems that with someone so young it's a little unfair to push them so fast through the grades that their physical size is making them struggle with the requirements to do it. There's plenty of time for them to get through the grades when they're not limited by such factors. Surely it's not the case that he's such a genius he can't learn anything more from studying the repertoire around this level and doing the exams when he's physically ready to do them; as well as being pianistically technically able to pass. I appreciate that you're his teacher and know his situation best, I (as a non-teacher) just can't comprehend such a move, is it pushy parent related?

maybe u can play the phrases in a more legato and smooth way so that i wont sound ''broken''.

QUOTE (AnotherPianist @ Jan 31 2005, 12:25 PM)

I don't mean to sound judgemental but it seems that with someone so young it's a little unfair to push them so fast through the grades that their physical size is making them struggle with the requirements to do it.

I had a friend who had to wait for two years for her arms to grow so that she could take exams after grade 1 on the trombone - she couldn't reach the bottom notes for the scale requirements!

QUOTE

I don't mean to sound judgemental but it seems that with someone so young it's a little unfair to push them so fast through the grades that their physical size is making them struggle with the requirements to do it.

Interestingly the teaching notes for this piece do state that ..." it's a piece for the more mature or exploratory pianist ".

It also says that pedal is needed for the opening section.

Maggie

Cant help it if the child likes the piece and wants to sit the exam. Ready in every other aspects of the gr4 exam and gets a buzz from preparing for the exams.

No pushy parent just likes the certificate on the wall. He is only just 8 and loves music and thinks exams are great. Dont want to knock his confidence and say dont play this because you cant reach the pedal and you are not old enough for it. After much thought and discussion we thought we would let him have a go this term at the exam tried to defer but was insistent on taking it. I think because we are all relaxed about him sitting the exam he just gets on with it. He has sailed through all the other grades happily and we had planned on skipping grade 4 and moving onto grade 5 in another year to allow growth but he missed taking the exams. Even though he took up a 2nd study in this year and is already taking gr 1 in that study too.
Let u know how he does after easter.

QUOTE

It is, however, worth noting that the examiners do mark from the pass mark and add/deduct accordingly: not straight from 30.

A teacher of mine who was taught by examiners told me that what they do is decide firstly how the performance fulfills the criteria for the grade (there is a list in 'These Music Exams'). This puts each section (or piece) into the 'fail', 'pass', 'merit', 'distinction' catagory. Then to award the marks it is a matter of deciding how well the performance fitted within that framework.

Surely though he's going to run out of exams to do and if that's what really motivates him then he's more likely to give up when he gets older with no certificates as goals to aim for. If he was going to miss doing an exam this year and do one next year having had time to grow why would that be grade 5 and not grade 4? Surely if he likes the exams he should be allowed to do them all (especially since he's started so young and has plenty of time). If you think about it if he's done half of the exams by the time he's eight he's going to run out soon, or more likely hit a point where he can't continue through the exams at anywhere near the same pace (or at anywhere near the normal pace) because his playing simply hasn't caught up with his exam taking.

I agree with your statement that because you don't fuss about the exams he's not worried by them: young children tend to pick up on the attitudes of those around them, if he's been told exams are fun he'll think that, if people always tell him that exams are scary, he'll think that so he must be surrounded by a lot of positive people. Would an eight-year-old really be able to tell the difference between an exam certificate from an external board and one, say made by his teacher for him? I wouldn't think so, and if this is the case, maybe he will be able to enjoy playing equally if he can work towards other things such as being part of a recital and you could give him a certificate to say that he's taken part, so that he still gets certificates if that's what he likes. Or maybe he could look at entering some music festivals, they usually give out certificates (especially if you win!).

These are just some suggestions: I just can't help feeling that going through the grades so quickly, and finding them as so motivating in one's playing can sometimes be a little dangerous: there comes a point where one can't continue just doing it without the experience that is gained by everyone else between grades and then there's a long gap to get between grades when that happens loosing the major motivating factor (and an even longer gap if one wants to get back to getting good marks again). Just out of interest why is he going so quickly? I can understand it as an explanation when he likes doing the exams so he's doing lots of them if you're struggling to find other motivation, but then when you suggested that he should have a break from exams and that meant that he would have to skip one, rather than just doing it when he is able implies that there is some rush, or am I just misinterpreting the move?

Far be it for me as a student and not a teacher to interfere but I would have thought you have a very talented youngster on your hands and he should be given every encouragement.

After all it must have happened to the little boy pianist who reached the final of the Young Musician of the Year last year!


Bet he did grade 8 (or if he did was playing pieces of a comprable standard and higher) when he was really tiny and interesting to know what they did about him (not?) reaching the pedal in that and the previous grades!!

He is very talented that is why he is speeding through the grades, he plays lots of pieces a week inbetween everything else. He can choose 4-5 pieces a week and work them to a good standard during the week. He doesnt take ages to learn notes and rhythm. What he does lack is maturity but he can copy or follow an idea through if you suggest it to him.

I am sure he wont run out of grades as he progresses higher and becomes older I think he will slow down. I am sure he will peak soon and it will his progress will slow down a bit. But why discourage him when he is doing well .... just because he is 8, it is nice to see his enthusiasm. Dont you think....

He is an all rounded talented child, he is good at school work too and his music is his out of school life. He likes sports too but music is his passion and he plays regularly on 2 instruments and in the county bands/orchestras so I think he should be encourage.

Funny all I asked was for advice about pedalling and now I am defending my young student and our decision to let him sit this exam so early.

One thing that concerns me is this attitude that someone's ability to speed through the grades quickly implies that they are musically tallented it does not at all. I know (of) someone who passed grade 8 piano (and the other lower grades too) before they started high school. Later when she was 16 she heard someone playing the piano who had done the grades at a normal pace (along with several festivals, recitals and other pieces to amuse him in going at such a speed) and said to him, and I quote, "You're loads better at playing the piano than me". She hadn't given up since she did grade 8 but certainly wasn't progressing the same as she did in the exam system, maybe lack of motivation, maybe she was always playing pieces that were too difficult because she'd rushed through without foundation work, maybe she just had to wait for her maturity to catch up before she could progress any more in her playing. I'm more for Violinia's definition of a 'good' (although I don't believe she likes the word talented) musicain that a good/talented player is someone that can communicate to the audience, who can play nicely; not merely someone with technical skill.

Personally I don't think that it is a skill all to be able to get through the grades quickly: learning what is needed for the exam to an acceptable standard to pass can be done quite quickly and to be honest to pass grade 8 in the learn three pieces way is not too hard: I'm fairly sure I could have done that within a year of starting to play the piano (with the aid of a teacher, of course) not because I consider myself to be a genius just because I think that most people could do it with enough dedication, I am still not not what I would consider grade 8 standard; nor would I have been if I'd done that but it's still possible to pass any grade without being that standard. I guess my point is just because someone can do the grades that doesn't mean that they should nor does it mean that they're ready or necesarrily good enough to claim to be that standard. If someone is struggling because they're physically not big enough (and it's very likely that they will grow to be big enough...) then it just makes me feel that the rush through the grades is taking priority over actually what their progress is. What sort of marks is he getting in these exams when he does them? I notice you say that he is sailing through so he must be doing well.

I think that the rate that someone progresses through the grades depends mainly on their teacher's attitude and very little on their abilities: some teachers will be happy to enter people as soon as they can scrape a pass; others will cover nothing but exam material thus getting people through grades quickly; some will refuse to let people do exams less than a certain time apart no matter how good they are and always entertain their pupils with other things to ensure that they are stretched. This doesn't mean that the pupils of a teacher who goes through the exam system quickly are any better than those of a teacher who goes more slowly: it's just a difference in teaching philosophy. Some teachers take pride in only results and not how quickly their students get through the grades: I once heard bagpuss disclose the results obtained by her pupils they were as follows '1 pass, 2 merits and 7 distinctions' no mention of how young, how quick or even what grade people were and to be honest with an amazing record like that it doesn't need any. I'm not accusing anyone here of fitting into any of these categories just demosntrating that rushing through the grades does not imply genius as so many people seem to believe.

My main concern was that when this inevitable slowing down occurs there will probably be a huge gap between grades, if they are his main motivation will he give up because he's lost it? Or will the exams lose their 'specialness' if too many are done together too quickly? Wouldn't it be better to limit his intake of the things that motivate him now (i.e. exams) and then spread them out then he doesn't have to go for a long time without them later? I can't see the logic in doing them all now and then having a big gap without them later, especially if he could get extra marks later.

QUOTE (frumpybabes @ Feb 2 2005, 11:51 AM)

Funny all I asked was for advice about pedalling and now I am defending my young student and our decision to let him sit this exam so early.

Yes that's quite true, and to be honest you're quite within your rights to tell me to shut up and say "what do you know, you're not a teacher". I'm merely expressing concern and trying to spark some interesting discussion. If you'd prefer I can stop this discussion and resume a discussion in another thread without any reference to you; I do think that it could be quite interesting though.

QUOTE (frumpybabes @ Jan 31 2005, 07:58 PM)

Cant help it if the child likes the piece and wants to sit the exam.  Ready in every other aspects of the gr4  exam and gets a buzz from preparing for the exams.   No pushy parent just likes the certificate on the wall.  He is only just 8 and loves music and thinks exams are great.  Dont want to knock his confidence and say dont play this because you cant reach the pedal and you are not old enough for it.  After much thought and discussion we thought we would let him have a go this term at the exam tried to defer but was insistent on taking it.  I think because we are all relaxed about him sitting the exam he just gets on with it. He has sailed through all the other grades happily and we had planned on skipping grade 4 and moving onto grade 5 in another year to allow growth but he missed taking the exams.   Even though he took up a 2nd study in this year and is already taking gr 1 in that study too. Let u know how he does after easter.

I followed this string with a great deal of interest.

As a parent and not a pianist I think it is right to let the child set the pace (fast or slow) within reason.

Obviously we hope that they won't come unstuck and be put-off piano, chess, cricket or whatever. If they are upset they will deal with it especially with some appropriate parental input and emerge from the experience a little wiser and a little stronger.

Thank you Jerry.... nicely put

Just to let you know. He managed to score 28/30 for this piece and the examiner said if he had managed to reach the pedal in the opening and kept the chords smooth using pedal he would have scored higher. But he managed to make it as smooth as he could using fingers alone. He scored a distinction overall.

I am very pleased we persisted and took the exam now. He is looking forward to grade 5 and in the special comments the examiner said his technique was exceptional for such a young child and size.