Daughter is working towards Grade 7 exams and several auditions including Specialist schools, NYCGB and other schools. Last year she got held in the waiting list until last minute, and lost out for another candidate with rare instrument.

I'd like to get your opinion and recommendation on song choices. These are the songs she is practicing at the moment.

Section A
a. Amarilli Mia bella
b. Se tu m'ami

Section B
a. Die Forelle (teacher is not so happy with final result) - Schubert
b. Fr?hlingsglaube - Schubert

Section C
a. Down by Sally Gardens - Gurney
b. The Fields are full - Gibbs

Section D
a. Somewhere - West side story.

Some of the above may not exactly age appropriate for her, but these are the closest one she can sing and chosen by herself and teacher.

Also we have to pick 1 or 2 songs from above for Specialist school auditions but she do have Ave Maria (Bach) outside of ABRSM syllabus.

Any suggestions welcome.

Thank you
Sunil

My feeling is that for a programme, any combination of the songs you've listed will work. Part of this is because they are divided up into lists in the way they are, so you're inevitably going to get contrasts to a certain extent. As I say though, I'm only commenting on it as a programme, because I haven't heard your daughter sing. In the end, she should be singing things she enjoys, which show off her particular vocal qualities, and which are suitable for her voice/age.

As for the auditions, I would personally avoid the Ave Maria which really is done to death I fear I can hear the thud as the panel's hearts sink

Thank you Seer_Green, unfortunately all the clips uploaded are either Contemporary or Gospel but will try to upload some for review soon.



One of the school is Wells Cathedral, which is the reason for selecting Ave Maria. We are not 100% set on that choice and can be replaced with another suitable choice. One of the songs must be from Set A, as both teacher and daughter likes and confident.

Amarilli mia bella = Amarillis my (feminine) Beloved(feminine)

This is a truly lovely song for a bloke to sing, but not ideal for a woman. Admittedly she can Trouser-role it, but as there are so many wonderful Italian Songs, It may be worthwhile choosing something else.

Also I agree with Seer_Green about the Ave Maria.

My suggestion is to swap it with Gia Sole del Gange
Also swap Ave Maria (Bach) with Lascia chio Pianga Handel, or if you want something sacred Bist du Bei Mir Bach or even Domine Deus from Gloria Vivaldi.

I love Lascia... great suggestion! And has gone down really well in any auditions my pupils have sang it in

For NYCGB sight reading skill can make or break IMHO

Just played the clips from youtube to DD and she appears to know the tune of Lascia Chio Pianga and Bist du Bei Mir / Domine Deus. I'll arrange the sheet music and see how she get on. If she feels comfortable, we will take it to the teacher this weekend.

Thanks Jod for the recommendations.



ViolinCJJ, do you think Grade 6 level is roughly enough for NYCGB auditions? She is just about to finish Grade 6 books / exercises of both Piano and Singing.

I think it will be a good level, yes. Lots of them struggle with it I know so it's good she has worked through systematically. I know it's harder for the girls to get in - they have many more applicants - so it's worth really being as well prepared as possible.

Last year DD sang Linden Lea and Panis Angelicus for NYCGB. I don't know about the later but Linden Lea is definitely grade 5. I don't really think they care what grade the song is as the quality of the voice is the most important.

It depends a bit though...

DS got into Boys when he was 10 and had a distinctly average low-treble voice, not a soloist voice at all. But he sang musically and his sight reading was excellent. Older girls face much more competition according to the NYCGB website so it makes sense for them to prepare extremely carefully, the ones I know who have got places have made sure their reading is very good because almost everyone will present with good song performances.

The other thing to be aware of is that in the audition they will be asked to do a little work on a section of one or two of the pieces and so they need to be used to being asked to change things and to try new ideas out.

Didn't realise you had a DD as well as the boys, MNW!

I am clearly going mad! DS!!!

Ok, so I secretly wished I'd had a conscientious, well-behaved, low maintenance girl!

Ha Ha Ha!

A mythical creature methinks?.

Daughters low maintenance! I might not have any, but when I compare notes with friends and remember what my sister and I put my parents through I think not!

Thanks for the heads up, now I can be more realistic on expectation !




There you go! She has no chance with the quality of voice she has now as it is very raw and stand apart from pure voices.




Mine really is!

Or a conscientious, well behaved, low maintenance boy? I have a girl and a boy, and I assure you the boy was far easier to raise than the girl! It's more to do with individual character than s'ex, IMO.

At the moment a low maintenance child would be good. You know the sort you don't feel you've had to do ten rounds in a boxing ring with every day.

I fear we have similar children! BB exhausts me, GB frustrates me and OH infuriate me. I managed to get rid of the other male in our house (the dog) but the other three are staying!

Sunil, the NYCGB are looking for a variety of voices. DS does not have a typical treble voice, it sounds (on a good day) more operatic and is very powerful. I always go in with the expectation of DS not being offered a place and then being surprised if he is. I hope she does well and do not relay any of your fears onto her and she'll give a confident performance. FWIW, DS did not enjoy the NYCGB and we got a letter from them saying he was too individual and their standards were very high blah de blah. I was unimpressed by the concert I went to and the singing was not as good as his current choir. I can't imagine it has anything to do with the boys voices as they have effectively picked the best singers in the country. I would suggest putting her name down for the Junior Choral Course which is run by the previous Precentor of Eton. DS loved them and it is non-auditioned with very varied repertoire and IMO it produced a better, longer and more varied concert.

Thanks MNW, DD is not very keen to audition with NYCGB but I'm trying to convince her that she can meet similar minded Children there and a bit of Voice training. Also she may get a bit of audition experience this season that improves her confidence. I'm always nervous, but she is just opposite (sometimes overconfident)




Thank you, will look into these.

Update:

Daughter decides not to go for audition in Wells, as she don't want to stay away from family. She also thinks she may miss all the solo opportunities she gets around London.

Had discussion with one of the secondary school (2 doorsteps away) close by, they seem to agree with the idea of part educating off-site, which is the Plan-B at the moment.

Good news is She cleared her Grade 5 Theory but now not very keen to take ABRSM exams! She want to build up Repertoire without limiting to Grade 7 exam pieces.

Can you guys give your thoughts on the following songs. We are mainly looking for the suitability factor vs Age (she is 10 years old)

a. Dido's Lament (Hayley westenra's version) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acnJcwIqJo4
b. Music for a While - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4nSurzfGuQ

Personally, as a teacher, I wouldn't give either of those songs to a 10 year old.

Happy birthday Seer_Green!

Can you give a bit more in detail? I'm absolutely 0 when it comes to music, but teacher mentioned When I'm laid to earth may not be suitable but Music for a while is okay

Only reason for looking out for more options is that the audition panel may not have voice experts, so she has to touch their heart with emotion.

I would say that the whole characterisation of 'When I am laid' is just wrong for a 10 year old. 'Music for a While' is probably more possible, but in my view, is technically very challenging, and, no disrespect to your daughter, I wouldn't expect many 10 year olds to have the technique to 'pull it off' securely. Just my view, and I'm sure other teachers may jump at the chance to give such songs to a ten year old

That's fine. I think that's what her teacher meant by "Heavy"



No problem, it's not disrespect but your thoughts and concern. At some point, I should be able to record before she goes for audition. I'll PM you the same very soon.

Comgratulations to your daughter. I remember ours did the exam at the same time earlier in the year. It's good to get it out of the way. Well done to her!

I think there is nothing worse than a child singing a song they don't understand. This was the case in BB's singing exam and I remember listening to Hayley Westerna sing "Heathcliff" when she was about 12 and she just sang the words as she did not have a clue in the meaning.

I would choose a choral piece and a musical theatre or folk song piece for the exam. It may also be a good idea to sing a song from your daughters cultural background.

For most of the songs we dig out the background story, its meaning and translation if it is in different language, which is important to express the emotions. The song in question here, she has perfect understanding of meaning. She personally has gone thru very tough events in her 10 years of life.

Also she is not comfortable with fast, cheerful songs but have good ability to convey emotions in slow & sad songs.



She don't like musical theatre songs, but do have some semi-classical stuff.




Thank you Claudia's Mum. I can't believe how much time it took away to prepare for Grade 5 . She tried to write the exam last season but fell in short of 9 marks, but this time her singing teacher helped.

I heard a very good treble sing Music For A While (at an NYCGB concert actually) and while he sang it with a lovely voice it didn't really work for me. I wouldn't think Dido's Lament at all suitable for a young girl either.

For DS (14 and singing Bass) I tend to trawl through exam lists - not just ABRSM - and listen to pieces on Youtube to find things that seem to be right for his voice/age. It takes ages! We have found some obscure but lovely songs from film and musicals this way as well as recently discovering some lovely Butterworth folksongs.

She needs to work at getting comfortable with faster songs if she is auditioning on voice. They will want two contrasting pieces and for voice that does not mean a slow piece or a fast piece as it does with other instruments.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts!



Very true indeed. Finding suitable Musicals & film tracks easier compare to Classical pieces in our experience. We like one of the soundtrack from a movie, but no luck in finding the sheet music.




Her teacher mentioned for some reason classical fast pieces are not working as expected (including Die Forelle) but exceptionally good in slow tracks. I think they will work on the defects, once the audition period is over.

I always thought the audition panel expect 2 pieces from different periods.

It's not two pieces from different time periods, it's two contrasting pieces.

But pieces can contrast in all sorts of ways. Period and tempo are two but you seem to have something else in mind. Anything specific?

I was wondering that too - perhaps she meant that contrasting period OR tempo wasn't enough, you'd need contrasting period AND tempo? eg (not that I'm suggesting any of these!) Rachmaninov's Vocalise and Dido's Lament wouldn't be a great pairing, and neither would "for he is like a refiner's fire" and "non piu mesto" .

Or...???

If you're talking about auditioning for specialist music schools then I think you shouldn't over think the choice but make sure you choose 2 songs that are from different eras, are at different speeds and are in different keys. Songs that are age appropriate and that show the voice at its natural best.

This is exactly what I meant!

Like Seer Green, I would not give either of those songs to a ten year old as the poetic references in the lyrics are completely inappropriate.

Similarly do not touch Sweeter than Roses, If Music be the Food of Love. In fact be very careful with any Seventeenth Century Song that alludes to flowers as that is not the true subject, and you would not want your ten year old daughter singing explicit love poetry even if it is coded.

If Baroque, stick to sacred music, it is safer territory. Vet words very carefully for hidden meanings.

The problem with younger girls getting their Grade 5 is that the more advanced repertoire really is aimed at the older singer. You are much better consolidating things as when she hits puberty she will go through a Vocal Transition, and that is the time to pursue the higher grades.

Thanks for sharing the concern, one of the song would be sacred as you mentioned very beginning.


She is still a child, but very tall. If I go with ms. Gackle's table she is already in Phase 2B with speaking voice ranging A3-C4. Either way, she dedicates only 40 minutes on singing.

At last a parent who appreciates my concerns (as teacher and parent) the age appropriateness of material

Don't take this the wrong way, but Sunil, given some of the responses I have had recently, I could kiss you sharing my concerns!

My Matthew who is now twelve is now nearly all the way through transitition. I have taught girls through transition and their ranges alter from week to week finally settling from about the age of 13-14+ depending on when they started menstruating.

I am very anti the over se.xualisation of girls, yet acknowledge one can not halt puberty.

You as Gackle's Mum should have the Ultimate say over whether you think the emotional content of her repertoire is 'age appropriate' and should work with her and her teacher to ensure this is the case.

This is an extremely sensitive area as it touches on areas such as Child Protection yet so many parents and vocal teachers are remarkably naive. The fact is so much of the material is much more adult than at first glance, hence I suggest you vet it. As a teacher I do and if I feel uncomfortable about any of the inuendo even if coded, I do not teach that song without consulting the parents first.

http://faculty.washington.edu/demorest/gackle.pdf

Thank you, I understand your stance! As a parent, I always attempt to make sure she is singing age appropriate songs lyrically. But that's only in contemporary route. We have plenty of tracks that can show her ability in singing gospel / country style

But being auditioning in schools like Yehudi Menuhin / Purcell / Wells, we are trying to find out the best song she can sing. She is not very comfortable with fast Classical songs, but has good ability in convey the emotions. I've no clue on these but found out the above tracks just by googling. Tonally it fits, hence the query. Also last say is for her teacher but I (after discussing with daughter) just throw the ideas to discuss.

As mentioned earlier, audition panel may not have vocal experts!




I'm still watching you! We are your fans on FB and enjoying the short blogs. I saw that link when you posted few years go, which has lot of information.

Thank you! All my attempts to Google Ms Gackle were met with miserable failure, so I was beginning to wonder..

I have finally been able to read the article that Dugazon pasted the link to. It is excellent and well worth a read. I was aware of her work, but was the first time I had read that version of it.

It corresponded completely with my overall experience of singing through transition and teaching through transition together with the physiology I had managed to pick up along the way. It is just good to see the whole lot in one place.

I let students in transition take early exams, but nothing above grade 5. This is because of the repertoire and for the reasons set out in Lynn Gackle's article, and in the case of boys, because on reading and talking to John Cooksey what emerges from his research.

Singers are not like other instrumentalists and between 16-18 there is plenty of time to get to Grade 8. This really should be done on an emergent yet stable adult instrument and not one that is still in the end of transition.

Similarly Diplomas should not be commenced too early.

By all means girl and boy trebles can reach standards again up to grade 5, but those higher standards are meant for adult instruments and the repertoire reflects that. This does not mean that Trebles of either s.ex should not strive nor achieve excellence, just simply recognise how the syllabus is designed and achieve things outside its framework.

Do any of the music schools actually take young female singers age 10? Apart from as choristers? I would think they would be inclined not to but to suggest that they carry on singing and apply when they are older - for all the reasons above.

Purcell / Menuhin / Wells don't have set rules but Chetham's has!

Last year she auditioned in one of the above schools with Voice as first instrument (her piano was grade 3ish during that stage) and held on to waiting list until the last moment where they offered a place to another child with rare instrument as first choice.

This time, we may mention that happy to accept piano as first choice of instrument and later switch to Voice as first instrument, whilst continuing the singing lessons with current teacher during weekends.

I'm surprised to hear they told you that the rare instrument was the reason the other child was offered a place...

Really, there is no rush for young singers to go down the path of high Grades as Jod has said. And you seem happy with things with your singing teacher at the moment?

I pressed for a reason for keepin her on waiting list for 9 months, they said it could be "a" reason. They also said they would like her to audition again this year to see how much she has improved! No other comments.

I only suggested the idea of going for another round of certification this year. But we may drop the idea and focus on building up decent repertoire and doing some competitions for piano.

Forgot to mention, she got into NYCGB . Thanks for the tips given.

Her singing teacher is very good (she teaches in guildhall) but focuses in classical and related categories.

Hurray! Great news about NYC, hope to meet you there next year. One of my small students got into Boys so he will be there as well as DS who sings with Cambiata.

NYC will be a good place for her as the staff there know what they are doing with young voices.

It sounds to me like you have a good teacher for her, and that you have your head screwed on the right way.

Specialist music school or regular school she is going to succeed with the level of support she has from you.

She is still young, and with a mother who supports yet does not push and allows her to grow up at her own pace, the world is her oyster.

She will end up not resenting you as her mum, and despite the times as a teen she tells you she 'hates you' (don't worry this is par for the course), you should end up with a strong mother-daughter relationship.

I was recommended a book called 'Divas and Doorslammers' to deal with parenting teens and pre-teens. It is as applicable to boys as it is girls. It helps deal with the not so nice bits. However getting your daughter into the NYC is one of the good bits -enjoy!

Thank you violincjj, I'm sure we will meet at least once there . If she likes NYC she may continue but she already started asking me whether she gets chance to do her daily piano practice