For whatever reasons it seems that the diplomas just don't have the uptake that the grade system has. I spoke to a number of people about what they did after grade 8 and most people said "Quit"

I don't really fancy the performance Dip, the playing is fine but I don't give a toot about the program notes. I'm sure there are all manner of arguments for learning this information, but ick! The gap is also difficult, the DipABRSM saying that it's for the first year of an undergrad course then the LRSM suddenly jumping to year 3, nothing equivalent to year 2, and especially as people not in a full time undergrad course could take well over 2 years to bridge the gap between the two it seems that there isn't anywhere to go once you drop off grade 8. A while back they put in another certificate exam to bridge the gap but that's gone now. I want to "do something" but I don't know what I want to do. What do people normally do to keep themselves focussed onto something specific? I was offered a place on the final year of a performing BMus course a couple of years ago so my playing must be "up there" somewhere, but I didn't take up the course in the end (stupid reasons - they didn't tell me where and when to start despite my best efforts to find out!!) so I didn't end up doing anything with it and am once more back to playing through stuff for no particular reason.

Hi there. A little while ago I was looking for a stepping stone between Grade 8 and DipABRSM, because the chasm between the two seemed quite frightening! I found out that Trinity offer an Advanced Performance Certificate. They are looking for pieces of around Grade 8 level, but you have to make it into a 25-30 minute recital programme, which is a bit of a step up from what's needed at Grade 8.

I understand you do have to provide some notes, but not to nearly the same degree as you do for DipABRSM, as the emphasis is on performance. You also don't have to do a viva or quick study.

Perhaps worth looking into?

Yes, the Trinity Advanced Certificate looks good and seems a good stepping stone. The ATCL Recital doesn't have quick study or the viva, and programme notes/presentation skills are only 10% of the marks so it's 90% performance. Both of these exams have really nice repertoire lists - certainly for violin and piano.
The programme notes for the ATCL are only as much as you'd see on a fairly basic recital programme (something like 500 words - gone in a flash!)
If you prefer a more traditional 'exam-like' exam, the AB diplomas have the pieces, then quick study, viva etc.

I looked at the Trinity, but since it's officially grade 8 standard it just didn't seem worth the money to prove over again that I can play at grade 8 standard but for marginally longer. I should probably do a diploma, but then again they are probably less than sympathetic to my need to take a lie down for 5 minutes in the middle! All depends if they think it's a "reasonable adjustment" or an "adjustment which undermines the assessed skills".

I would not know where to start to write program notes - "This is a piece of music. I like it. The end." That's my level of interest in the background of the piece.

I'm more scared by the gap between Associate and Licentiate than the G8-Dip gap, it seems an awfully large jump from first year UG to final year UG if you are not actually doing a full time UG degree, that's probably about 5 years of progress.

When you add up the cost of lessons, exam entry fees, accompanist and all it seems a huge amount of money just to get a certificate to hang on the wall, but if I don't feel I'm going in a particular direction then I end up going nowhere at all.

There is some excellent stuff on this website.

I tackled programme notes thinking a little of my own needs for a concert - yes, sure, the main thought is, do I like it? but the nature of the ATCL exam meant that I also had to learn some repertoire which I'd not normally want to go and listen to, and ironically, analysing the form of the avant-garde pieces I've learned to play brought me some insights which allowed me to play them better...the other purpose of programme notes, if I'm a concert goer, is to stop me going to sleep if the music is getting....erm....beguiling - so when writing them I tried to find nuggets of information to keep interest going if my playing didn't have all it needed to. The advantage of Trinity dips is that programme notes demands are rather shorter than for the ABRSM ones, plus you don't have to do the quick study or viva - whilst I'd quite possibly be okay at the former, I'm a hesitant speaker in an exam setting and wouldn't do the latter well, even if well prepared.

Other than that though, I'm not really sure what else there is to keep motivation going aftter the grades, beyond doing concerts, and going to lessons: for the moment I'm keeping basic playing going by playing in the Scottish Recorder Orchestra, and stretching out sideways by learning to play the voice flute. Ultimately though, I'd really love to complete the "set" and go for Fellowship too, also at Trinity .

Hmmm ... I thought my playing was up to standard too ... but I still managed to fail the Recital part of the DipABRSM last November. I know I played well below par in the exam, but I still thought I had done enough to pass. How wrong can you be.

But then .. the whole point of an exam is to subject yourself to the judgement of someone that has a better idea of where your standard of play fits in to the grand scheme.

The real reason I play is to share my love of the music ... by performing, teaching, accompanying. Playing also helps me to listen better as well ... and the friendship of the community of musicians matters too. There is still an element of attention seeking and show-offiness, but I am working on putting those in their proper place. And I must not forget the pleasure I get from a good practice session - I love the touch, the feel, the sound ... everything about the piano.

What are your motivations?

There is no need to fear the Programme notes or the Viva. Compared to learning to play the recital welll the amount of work they take is trivial. The sight reading is a different matter. I was fortunate enough to make a good job of it, but it is areal stumbling block for some people.

I'm doing this music lark for my own amusement so I don't see the reason to fork out hundreds of pounds on a single exam which I do not need. I know I pay for grade exams but the cost is comparatively tiny and it's spread over a good 8 or so years. (50 +/- 20 for the grades, 650 for FRSM). The FRSM cost is more than the monthly rent paid by some of my colleagues.

The gap between diplomas also concerns me - especially the grade 8 -> DipABRSM which is the stepping stone to the others. They say that the dip should be the same level as an end of first year performance..... but considering so many music students are well above grade 8 standard when they start the first year this could equate to at least 3 or 4 years worth of full time music study on top of grade 8. Us plebs who are doing this for fun would find it difficult to achieve this amount over 10 years given that we have other more important things to be doing most of the time (like work, grrrrr).

So I think I wlll be taking grade exams but not bothering with any diplomas afterwards.... unless I win the lottery and can focus on music full time..... must start buying lottery tickets....

Me too - if I think about it. But hey, I'm not there yet, so one step at a time. Besides, it's worth bearing in mind that performance is only one element of most UG degrees. Many students don't spend 3 years concentrating solely on playing their main instrument. I'm not suggesting that anyone who works full-time and/or has other responsibilities will necessarily have 2-3 hours a day to practise; I'm just pointing out that even a music student might not get in as much practice as you might think.


You're clearly not really into the idea of exams. How about working towards solo or chamber music recitals, or taking part in festivals or competitions?

If you are not bothered by passing/ failing/ certificates but still would like something to work towards where you will get feedback then why not do a Performance Assessment? Personally this is the assessment I am most likely to use post grade 8, if I use anything.

How odd that it seems to come over that I'm not into an exam or a certificate. I'm very interested in a certificate, if there was a grade 9 I'd put straight in for that no questions asked, the diplomas just seem to take a different direction, no scales, no aural (good place for me to get free marks!) just a whole lot of pieces and the dreaded programme notes.

The Performance Assessment has no appeal for me because you can't fail it and even if it's near perfection (!) they will find points for improvement. I'd get upset with any of the bad points and decide that meant they thought I was terrible because there isn't a point where you are "good enough" or "not good enough" for a particular benchmark. Similarly competitions, if you are fantastic but someone else is better then you don't win, they don't give you 6 prizes if 6 out of the 10 candidates are good enough to win, you either win or you don't, so still no benchmark.

I have more or less decided that what I shall do is prepare material from the diploma lists (both AB and Trinity) and at some point I will have all that secure material for the diploma that I "may as well" go in for the exam. That's how I would tend to prepare a student anyway, get them so they can play all the grade pieces anyway then say hey, how about we put this up for the examination? I'll have some experience of a diploma by then, albeit the teaching one. I think that word "professional" puts me off a lot, it's like you either become a pro after grade 8 or you hit the wall, I'm no professional, can you direct me to the amateur diploma, please?

Have you looked at the LCM diplomas, RoseRodent? Some of them include scales, as I recall.

It depends what you want from an assessment.
Even at grade level I see the marks and comments for pieces as most important and most useful.
This is where you get feedback on how you play music.

If you want something with a pass or fail possibility then Performance Assessment isn't right for you but for feedback on playing it can be more useful than a grade exam and is tailor made to your needs. You tell the examiner what you want from the assessment and the feedback is written with that in mind.
Also I think that competitions, with good adjudication, are most useful as performance opportunities and for 'expert' feedback. As you say, there is only one winner but that doesn't make everyone else a loser.

Any feedback that had bad points without suggestion for improvement is not really any use at all and I would hope that a "good" examiner or adjudicator wouldn't do that.

and there are some excellent adjudicators on the woodwind circuit : Paul Harris and Liz Goodwin are two names that immediately come to mind

From working with her at the Chet's Piano Summer school I would think that Kathryn Page is also an excellent adjudicator.

I agree with Sbhoa on this.

Doing anything musically shouldn't be about winning it should be about the learning process. whether you win or not there is still a performance opportunity and feedback for everyone. In music there is always another level to aspire to and more skills to build.

My daughter is post grade 8 but probably not yet dip level so I understand your frustration about being in exam limbo. I think it's difficult after grade 8 to know when to consolidate and when to push forward.

I don't know anything about Performance Assesment but I wold have thought the whole point of it was to get feedback to enable you to improve your playing further.

Ok, I might be going off at a tangent here, but I've just latched onto your desire to use your aural skills. How about tackling the Practical Musicianship advanced grades? It sounds really cool, and actually I'm quite tempted myself!

Extract from the syllabus: