I was just wondering if anyone else has noticed that many of the ABRSM publications use American English in the written text; and that the exam regulations on the website use American English. I was just wondering why, if the ABRSM is a British organisation, they use American English instead of British English (although in some books I have seen a mixture of the two). Does anyone have any ideas? I'd be interested to know.

I hadn't actually noticed any American English - can you give an example?

The word 'harmonization' is used all over the Harmony in Practise book, that's just one example there are many others (in different books too). Usually words spelt with z instead of s; it's not always consistent (even within the same book) some are still in the British spelling, most are Americanised though.

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QUOTE (Rhapsodin @ Jan 31 2005, 03:19 PM)

for example Most people think the correct spelling in england is "organisation" but it's not it's  organization.

Is that really true? If so I'm guilty of that one (interestingly searching on the AB's website there are 3 results for organization and 6 for organisation, they're undecided!). Surely at least organisation is listed as a valid alternative in the dictionary, is it not? I don't think that I can bring myself to use a z .

I like seeing things in British English writing (okay so I appreciate that even British English is just a corruption of some other languages...) and it's increasingly dying out to the American way (particularly in the computer world). I'm quite suprised that the AB are using American English and was wondering if this is a policy or just the odd slip or at the whim of the authour.

I don't actually agree, Rhaps, about the "correctness" of ize vs ise. I think the z is more usual in American English, the s more usual in English English (!) but as far as I know they are both "acceptable alternatives". Working in Word for Windows for example if you have the spell checker set to UK English it would query the z, in USA English it would query the s. Not that I am suggestion Word as the ultimate authority on that! But the s is the "norm" in English, although some dictionaries prefer the z. Some words are always (or should always) be spelt with the ise. Those which can be spelled with the x are also correctly spelled with the s as far as I understand it. OUP is notorious for prefering the z spelling where it's correct though... The OED also prefers ize. However the ise is not incorrect (ever, as far as I can work out, it's an accetable alternative to ize all the time, I *think*) whereas if one uses the ize spelling there are some words which require the ise ending so it means you have to know which are the exceptions. so I'm sticking with ise... it's easier! - plus it's what I am used to.

however, no it's not "American" in the same sense that color or honor or valor would be considered American, it's perfectly correct UK English to use that ending and the OED would back them up.

QUOTE (AnotherPianist @ Jan 31 2005, 03:15 PM)

The word 'harmonization' is used all over the Harmony in Practise book, that's just one example there are many others (in different books too). Usually words spelt with z instead of s; it's not always consistent (even within the same book) some are still in the British spelling, most are Americanised though.

The use of "z" here is not specifically U.S., although Americans seem to avoid "s" more than Brits do. I think of "z" as being Oxford spelling, but Chambers gives "harmonization" first (with no "U.S." or "N.Am."), so presumably prefers it.

QUOTE (AnotherPianist @ Jan 31 2005, 03:32 PM)

I'm quite suprised that the AB are using American English and was wondering if this is a policy or just the odd slip or at the whim of the authour.

But what you have described isn't American English.... Unless they have started using color, or saying something is a surprize (which would be incorrect, I believe...) lol... I do happen to agree and prefer the "English" spellings, but they aren't actually English spellings as such - they are an alternative - and the z spellings are actually what the OED recommends...

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QUOTE (Rhapsodin @ Jan 31 2005, 03:57 PM)

Eventually the current phase will cave in and what will we be speaking then?   Well, Mandarin is the most used langauge so...

let's just hope it's not txt speak...

I shall research further whether there are any 'true' Americanisms then. Surely though, ultimately to make a British English publication surely the British English version in standard use would be the logical choice.

I like the use of English English, makes it sound more ridiculous to consider anything else English!

QUOTE (sarah-flute @ Jan 31 2005, 03:40 PM)

However the ise is not incorrect (ever, as far as I can work out, it's an accetable alternative to ize all the time, I *think*)

size?

QUOTE (AnotherPianist @ Jan 31 2005, 03:15 PM)

most are Americanised though

shouldn't it be americanized?

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Actually, speaking of Latin, shouldn't these be called 'Fora'

Back on topic: the Wikipedia Article on British English covers the ise/ize thing. 'ize' is, as Rhapsodin said, the Oxford spelling - but spelling connection connexion is also the Oxford spelling so it might not always be indicative of standard usage.

As for harmonisation, it seems the government spell it with an S.

"As for harmonisation, it seems the government spell it with an S. "

huh - what would they know about it?

Having looked again at the book in question, obviously I don't have time to read much of it now, (although I have observed excess 'z's in many other publications) the word practice is used (with a c not an s 'In practice...') which suggests that it is intended to be British English; maybe it is just the z spellings (another is realize this figured bass....). I still cannot accept that harmonize and organize etc. are something that one would expect to find in a standard British English publication: the most common use by far in Britain is the s usage: isn't that what people would expect to see in British text?

QUOTE

Surely though, ultimately to make a British English publication surely the British English version in standard use would be the logical choice.

you'd think so, but then you'd expect the OED to have the normal British usage, and it suggests ize.... apparently it also insists on Shakespear (I think ) for Shakespeare even though no one else in the multiverse spells it that way. lol.

QUOTE

QUOTE (sarah-flute @ Jan 31 2005, 03:40 PM) However the ise is not incorrect (ever, as far as I can work out, it's an accetable alternative to ize all the time, I *think*) size?

OK smarty pants - IN VERBS!

I do agree that the ise is what I would regard as normal English (or "English" English, lol) but ize is an acceptable alternative - well acceptable except to those of us who think it looks ugly! According to one source I read, the American use of ize was adopted partly because words should be spelt how they sound, so let me rephrase: ize iz n akseptibul ulturnutive eksept tu thoze hoo think it luks ugglee. OK?

QUOTE

English is mostly latin-gone-to-the-dogs with a bit of greek thrown in (via the latin, that's why it's in the roman not the acryllic alphabet) and a few other assimilations. That's how it goes. It isn't that english is dying out, just that Latin is moving ever-forward (while still going to the dogs), like the current phase of the empire that created it.

Don't think so, Rhaps. French, Italian and Spanish are Latin-gone-to-the-dogs but English is really much closer to German. A thousand years ago Old English (alias Anglo-Saxon) was mostly Low German (similar to modern Dutch) with a dash of Old Norse. After the Norman Conquest French elements started to creep in but it wasn't until about 1300 that anything resembling what we think of as English emerged. Chaucer and Shakespeare and a few vowel shifts did the rest.

Linguists classify English as a Germanic language whereas the ones descended from Latin are classified as Romanic. There are similarities, though, as both groups are branches of the Indo-European family. The vocabulary of Modern English is about 60% German and 30% Latin/French (mostly of the Norman-French variety) with the rest being loan words from other languages. Or something like that!

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QUOTE (Rhapsodin @ Jan 31 2005, 07:58 PM)

Hah, I see we have a cunning linguist among us. Fingers too aching from prcaticsze to bovver 2 rgu. Nolle flatulare nisi clunes tuae paratae sunt, mon ami... regards, R. G. Barjie.

Now where did I put that Latin dictionary? The mon ami bit I understood, mi amigo.

QUOTE (Rhapsodin @ Jan 31 2005, 03:57 PM)

that's why it's in the roman not the acryllic alphabet

didn't know there was a plastic alphabet out there (though I believe acrylic is the spelling?) - who designed it?

oй мама ... сумасшедшие

...flatulare sounds distressingly familiar...

Кириллица не используется для грека.

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QUOTE (Rhapsodin @ Jan 31 2005, 08:27 PM)

Russian and greek alphabets.

нет... это похоже - а не то же самое

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QUOTE (Rhapsodin @ Jan 31 2005, 08:38 PM)

QUOTE (sarah-flute @ Jan 31 2005, 08:26 PM) Кириллица не используется для грека. Oh dear, mea très desolé suis. I fort they woz deerivd frum same orijin. but deres a linguist herabahts...can e/she sort it

it's similar but it ain't the same.

(it's SUCH a pain trying to type Russian when I can't remember how to make the computer help me out by actually using the Russian letters, argh!)

I blame Saint Cyril.

And how do you type Russian letters? I've tried writing them on my keyboard in felt tip but that doesn't seem to work!

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lol...

yeah it was his fault...

I'm not typing them - I wish I could make the computer let me, it would be far easier!

I found an online translatory-thingy, and although it is a bit difficult to make it come out with the words I actually want (tried typing in a whole heap of different possibilities for a word I wanted and it came up with the same word (and not the one I wanted) every time), I can usually translate words that have the right letters and then cut and paste them so I can say what I want. Rather time consuming though!

говорите-ли по-русски?

(excuse my rusty Russian...)

Oh posteriors, it lost my whole post....

Rhaps, Low...

QUOTE (Rhapsodin @ Jan 31 2005, 08:54 PM)

Been russian round today? Â

That is truly truly appalling...

QUOTE

Was pleased we reached some agreement over the pre-Cleopatra discussion as...I don't know why, but I know I expect to see harmonise, pasteurise, organise... but I don't like them,  I had a job typing them there without plonkin a zed in.   Yet I do type them with s if I think someone might worry about americanization.

Sorry, did you mean americanisation?

Isn't it weird? I don't like the ize ending - I won't go off on one seeing it, but ise it what I like & am used to...

QUOTE

We got practiczse sorted out, didn't we?

I think that is the Way Forward a la Chairman Mao. If in doubt use everything. Or learn Russian.

QUOTE (sarah-flute @ Jan 31 2005, 08:56 PM)

I found an online translatory-thingy, and although it is a bit difficult to make it come out with the words I actually want (tried typing in a whole heap of different possibilities for a word I wanted and it came up with the same word (and not the one I wanted) every time), I can usually translate words that have the right letters and then cut and paste them so I can say what I want. Rather time consuming though!

It's time consuming too for those who have to use a Russian translatory thingy to translate it back to English to work out what you're saying .

I really hate the ize it just really makes me cringe; the letter z should be saved for special occasions when s just won't do .

lol... sorry... believe me it's such a pain I shan't be doing it much!

most impressed with the speed at which people are either understanding it or translating it back.

and I agree about z... it should be saved for best

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QUOTE (Rhapsodin @ Jan 31 2005, 10:58 PM)

Yes, I'm sorry. I moscow and do my penance. (Is that how you spell penance in true british english?)

as far as I know!

QUOTE (AnotherPianist @ Jan 31 2005, 07:12 PM)

the word practice is used (with a c not an s 'In practice...') which suggests that it is intended to be British English;

Yes

"Theory in Practice"

is correct

even in British English because the word practice is used here as a noun.

British English is:

"practice" noun "practise" verb

Not sure about organization/organisation!!

QUOTE (Silver pianist @ Feb 1 2005, 11:00 AM)

Yes "Theory in Practice" is correct even in British English because the word practice is used here as a noun. British English is: "practice" noun "practise" verb Not sure about organization/organisation!!

Reminds me of a topic I rad in the teachers forum, here

QUOTE (Rhapsodin @ Jan 31 2005, 10:58 PM)

I was only recently reading some aphorisms. (I think they're aphorisms, not aphrodisiams, I can never remember which is what - sorry).

Rhaps -

You'll have to tell me how you errr...read???? or is it ingest, or even, ahem, experience (what a mind-blowing thought: two-in-one!)....aphrodisiasms :-)

much more effective than, say, mouche espagnole from dubious provenance I should think?

Though what this has to do with ising or izing....or music....

Ah well. A little levity never hurt anyone.

.....

QUOTE (lafrog @ Feb 1 2005, 11:34 AM)

Ah well. A little levity never hurt anyone.

a little levitation on the other hand could be quite painful if you weren't back down gently...

Are you saying we are in for a rude awakening?

get it right - it should be awakenzcsing...

going Polish, are we?

LOL

Da.

Yeah it does look rather Polish, I thought that when I posted it! Just following the rule of using s c and z. Oh you mean that's only in words ending in -ise...?

umm, this strikes me as rather petty....deal with it maybe?(no offense meant to anyone,of course ) I doubt that it will really matter if a word is spelled with a's' rather than a 'z'.Or at least thats how i,being an american would look at it.

QUOTE (jasbeth @ Feb 1 2005, 03:03 PM)

I doubt that it will really matter if a word is spelled with a's' rather than a 'z'.Or at least thats how i,being an american would look at it.

That's not what American's said in the first place when they changed all of the instances of 's' to 'z' . I agree that maybe it could be viewed as petty, but to me I just find that the z looks really ugly in these words, and that British organisations should use standard British spelling: imagine telling the French that they should give up their language because it makes no difference that wouldn't go down too well.

One could also argue that it doesn't matter if publications are littered with spelling mistakes and grammatical errors because we can still tell what they say, but we don't consider that acceptable (well I don't...).

By the way, on further inspection of the book I have come to the conclusion that the standard is British English but with the ize endings which are arguably technically in the English dictionary but aren't common English use.

QUOTE (jasbeth @ Feb 1 2005, 03:03 PM)

umm, this strikes me as rather petty....deal with it maybe?(no offense meant to anyone,of course ) I doubt that it will really matter if a word is spelled with a's' rather than a 'z'.Or at least thats how i,being an american would look at it.

This reminds me of a marvellous little tale I once heard:

A porter in a British hotel comes upon an American tourist impatiently jabbing at the button for the lift.
"Sir, the lift will be here in a moment."
"Lift? Lift?" replies the American. "Oh, you mean the elevator."
"No sir, here we call it a lift."
"Well, as it was invented in the United States, it's called an elevator."
"Yes sir, but as the language was invented here, it's called a lift."



I don't know why, but I have this ingrained urge to resist any Americanisations. I guess I'm a little patriotic; I'm certainly proud to be an Englishman. At 22, I already have a Marks & Spencer dressing gown and a pair of slippers....

QUOTE (jasbeth @ Feb 1 2005, 03:03 PM)

umm, this strikes me as rather petty....deal with it maybe?(no offense meant to anyone,of course ) I doubt that it will really matter if a word is spelled with a's' rather than a 'z'.Or at least thats how i,being an american would look at it.

We're not paranoid, we really are threatened

OTOH, each language has its strong and weak points. I am happy to import some U.S. spellings if they clarify concepts. E.g. "program" is something for a computer, "programme" is the music we are going to play. "Practice"/"practise" seems to me to be a useful distinction, but not an essential one. I don't worry about all these "ize" spellings. Even Cambridge graduates acknowledge that the OED is the ultimate authority on what English was from 1000 to 50 years ago (you need Chambers to be a bit more up-to-date): both of these dictionaries prefer "z".

We aren't protectionist enough. We never are. The French dedicated part of their Academie to kicking out Anglecizations... allowing just enough by so we don't freak out and scrap the Frenchisms, like calling our resturants 'pigging out joints'.

QUOTE

This reminds me of a marvellous little tale I once heard: A porter in a British hotel comes upon an American tourist impatiently jabbing at the button for the lift. "Sir, the lift will be here in a moment." "Lift? Lift?" replies the American. "Oh, you mean the elevator." "No sir, here we call it a lift." "Well, as it was invented in the United States, it's called an elevator." "Yes sir, but as the language was invented here, it's called a lift."

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

QUOTE

I don't know why, but I have this ingrained urge to resist any Americanisations.

I've given up in terms of insisting on them: besides anything else, there's the fact that some things we regard as Americanisms are anything but American - they are just expressions or spellings that have lost currency here but are still used in America - and then we whinge about Americanisms! however I always use what I consider standard British spellings etc, and always will.