Surely we must have done this before... but I have a death wish so I'm going to stir it up again. No, seriously, I am genuinely curious. I have a reasonably broad experience of instruments in that I play a woodwind and 2 strings to high standard, another woodwind to moderate standard and a keyboard to ... hmmmmm, jury's out. I have physically played brass and percussion but nobody would ask me to. I am either in a position where an instrument is so much a part of my life that I find it hard to fathom that anyone would find the things I do with it difficult (thus grade 1 violin music seems like you'd hardly have to get out of bed to learn it, but it would in practice take a beginner a good 2 years or so to be solid on the material) or I am so totally out of my depth with the instrument I am amazed anyone can play one at all (trombone) so it's hard to see if the grades appear to match up.

What I mean is, is a grade 5 on a violin equal in technical demand to grade 5 on a piano or is that not how it works? I'm not sure if they have put technical demands side by side and said this is hard, this is harder, etc. for the instrument in question, or if they take the total requirement of what you need to be able to do with the instrument by a certain point in order to call yourself proficient, then divided that by 8.

It's hard to compare something like a violin and a piano. At the simplest of beginner level (and please, pianists don't come at me on this one, I mean being utterly simplistic) you sit down at a piano and push down the C key, out comes a C. Easy. But to compensate for how easy that is compared to having a string instrument where you must find your notes on an unmarked fingerboard and at the same time learn to draw a bow across the strings to make notes happen, you have to play more than one note at a time. So maybe that's where the techincal demand levels off, one skill compensates for another, or maybe not and maybe there is simply much more to accomplish on a piano.

Do you think there is a certain grade on your instrument where the gap is way bigger than the others? from a student perspective I think the jump from 4-5 on the piano is a veritable gulf, with 5-6 not so wide and on upper strings 5-6 is the giant gap. Would be interesting to see what people think on this one, and the arguments they put forward to make their case.

I haven't tried to learn any other instruments other than upper strings, so I have no knowledge of how the grades compare for the practicals.

However, I was able to put myself through grade 5 theory with a few months reading, I wish it had been near as easy to get through grade 5 practical.

The only experience I have is of my son. It took him a year to get to grade 1 bassoon and during that time he picked up a clarinet at got to grade 3 in three months. I was playing around grade 4 oboe after 12 weeks but I can't make head nor tale of the bassoon. Piano has got to be the hardest and singing the easiest, but I'm sure I'll get flames for saying that!

I think some instruments are 'easier' and others 'harder' for people to get one with at first (for example, I think that bassoons and French horns have reps for being tricky to start, compared to say flute or violin). All instruments have their foibles and my limited understanding is that the grading system reflects this. In other words, a G3 piece for bassoon might seem 'simpler' on the page than an equivalent piece for say cello, but that's offset by the different technical challenges of the instruments.

Of course, I could be barking mad happy to be disillusioned

You won't believe it: I actually agree with singing being one of the easier ones if we just look at grades. Not because it is in reality (imho, it's a very hard instrument to learn if you want to do it well, and I am able to compare from own experience), but because the grading is essentially flawed. It is far too easy for singers to get a half-decent mark if they can hold a tune, or have a reasonably nice sounding, natural voice. Technique almost doesn't matter, at least not up to grade 5-ish. Even after that, I sometimes wonder how some grade 8s, and even diplomas, are justifiable when we have a look at what level such a singer should actually be at.

There, I said it...

P.S. I don't mean to say ever singer with a higher grade or diploma is no use (I also know grade 5 people who are really good), but there are far too many around who are nowhere near where they should be at that level. That's why I frankly don't care much about exams.

I think it is easier and harder to get to certain grades on certain instruments. So it usually takes longer to get to Gr 1 on the piano than the clarinet.

But MNW, when I have people coming to me on the clarinet who already have played other instruments usually progress faster. Firstly, they were younger when they started the first instrument and secondly they have got the hang of reading music and so at least understand note values etc even if the clef is different.

I can only speak of the instruments I know about, but in the clarinet there is a big gap between Gr 1 and 2 that doesn't exist in all instruments, but pupils sometimes progress between 2 and 3 very quickly. I think each instrumental grade system probably has its own foibles like that! I have lots of little pupils getting merit in Grade 1 who then flounder a bit and take longer than a year to get to Grade 2.

I do believe that each instrument has it's own difficulty and that some people just find it easier to get to e.g. grade 5 on maybe the flute then piano.
I play the flute and managed Grade 6 and the further I go on this instrument the more I realise that it is a big difference between getting the right notes out of it at the right time and playing it really good.

I am not in the position to compare the difficulty for the grades on different instruments, but I think that they are somehow comparable. The further you get the higher are the expectations on the way you play your pieces.
I might be able to press the right keys on the piano to play the first movement of the moonlight serenade on piano but it would sound awful.

It's impossible to compare them because invariably one is always going to be a subsequent instrument and the first one always takes much longer to learn.

It would be interesting though to hear the experiences of someone who started two or three instruments from scratch simultaneously spending the same amount of practice on each. I wonder if anyone has ever done this?

I did violin first, then piano, and found piano much harder!! Easy at the beginning, but Grades 5 onward far more difficult. Flute I have found quite easy, because I can read music etc. But after all the time, now I'm back working on the piano, it's this I progress the slowest in. And singing - well yes, I got my Dip very quickly, so I agree with Dugazon, the grades are easier. I would struggle to do that in violin!

Daughter also got her grade 5 singing this year, but is finding grade 2 piano hard - just from the amount of hours practice required in comparison.

But in all of this, there has to be an element that one person will find flute easy, but clari difficult, and another can find clari easy but flute impossible....etc.

The gap between grades 1-2 is rather smaller for flute and saxophone : the big gap for clarinet is entirely due to the higher register being introduced.

....and there you are trying to tell us you're a musical nitwit. I spent the first 6 weeks on long notes and scales and 9 months to get to Grade 3.

Back on topic. I have made much more rapid progress on the oboe than any other instrument I have tried, though I know it is simply because of the work I am now putting in compared to my "efforts" on viola and classical guitar. I don't know if there is any equivalence between instruments and I think it would prove hard to test. However, if you consider that in the old days grade 8 was supposed to be the standard to reach before going onto "advanced" musical education, I would guess there was intended to be some equivalence at that level at least (assuming you want your 1st year ensembles to be equally strong across all sections).

Oh, for what it's worth, I found the gap between 5 and 6 to be huge (on oboe) compared to previous ones. Loads of (harder) scales and arps to prepare and a higher expectation of "musicality". So far 6 to 7 seems as though it will not feel quite so tough, but perhaps I'm just getting used to the suffering.

In woodwind, that seems to be the case, even though the gaps between other grades vary from instrument to instrument.

I think there is definitely something to be said for an instrument which just suits you. My sister had no joy on any instrument at all other than a descant recorder (could never master treble, hands too small for unkeyed tenor) and the oboe. We really did try all sorts, flute, clarinet, piano, brass, strings. I think she'd suit a cello, personally (can't explain why) but she doesn't fancy learning bass clef. She thought she was utterly talentless until she took up the oboe.

I switched from violin to viola, which really ought to be the same set of skills, if anything would go backwards because of the need to learn a new clef, yet I went from grade 4 to 7 in 1 year, 3 months after I was utterly failing to master the grade 5 music on violin I was passing 7 on a viola. Reminds me that the day I first took up the violin the teacher looked me up and down and said "Should have got you a viola" and she was right.

I've been able to change instruments reasonably easily over most sections of the orchestra, some things utterly elude me. I was able to pick up an unfamiliar instrument and within 15 minutes of experimentation on how to produce notes, play God Save the Queen on absolutely anything apart from a double bass and a trombone. I went to an orchestration day for understanding each others' instruments from a composition and arrangement perspective and at the end of a 30 minute lesson on each I still could not play 4 notes on a trombone or remember the names of the strings on a double bass. The bass may be because of my hearing loss, I am missing certain frequencies and I cannot hear the bass at all, I have to stand within a couple of feet of one on a wood surface and it's a rumbly feeling as to whether it's making notes or not. I think it's useful to get a chance to try instruments out a bit before commiting to lessons, perhaps being ready to swap to something else if you don't make progress.

Did this have anything to do with the length of your arms or fingers? Just out of interest.

Grades are meant to adapted to suit the instrument in question, and take into account all the various technical challenges which are unique to that instrument. I also found violin easier than piano at the start, but coordination at a young age was never my forte

Probably. I am in strange proportions given my overall height, my arms are pretty long, I have a total giraffe neck and my fingers are long and widely spaced. They are also pretty big, and it's like trying to squeeze a row of reluctant sausages into 5th+ position on the violin. It's just overall more comfortable, feels like I've been rescued from playing a half size instrument.

I got to a good grade 8 in classical guitar very quickly; I found it easy to be honest. I foolishly believed I could progress just as quickly on violin on similar practice time and effort. Nooooooooooooo! Violin much harder! I cannot explain why; you only play one note at a time, after all, so it SHOULD be easier

I suppose some instruments require much more technical skill simply to produce one note than others do, so there will be a difference between instruments in the effort and time required to be able to produce a grade one level tune.

Singing is an interesting one. My daughter's had half a terms lessons and her teacher is suggesting grade 4 next term. Half of me is puffed up with pride, half of me is thinking b***** h**, I've bust a gut to get to grade 3 violin in ******** amount of time! Her gloating is unbearable!

Indeed, I am sincerely grateful for the introduction of the Music Medals as it gives a progressive structure to the early years. Something like a flute can take some students months to make it do anything at all. Other instruments have their technical demands as you progress and you still need to start with correct technique, but at least if you pluck a string on a harp you will get a note out. I think in many cases this accounts for the difficulties as you progress, if you can make notes without good technique it's easier to develop bad habits.

Hmm... part of this may be for physical reasons, but part of it could just be that learning speeds aren't usually constant. Someone might have a lot of trouble getting to a certain level, but then suddenly have a breakthrough and progress really quickly after that - you might have found something similar if you had stayed with violin a bit longer. Also, I don't know if this applies to grade-level music, but in general the difficulties in viola repertoire tend to be more about tone production/bowing, while violin repertoire requires more agility (though of course to play either instrument at a high level you need to master both). So maybe people to whom bowing technique comes more naturally than agility are better suited to viola?

I learnt cello, piano and then flute. Cello took the longest to progress but it was my first instrument, at 6 or 7 years old. Intonation was always a problem, not something that is such an issue on piano and flute. I also had hyper-extensive finger joints so could never get that rounded hand shape as a child (now I'm older I'm less flexible so not an issue). Piano I think it was (and still is) co-ordination and synchronisation between the hands - flute usually one finger at a time; cello more difficult combining bowing and fingering.

But I found flute comparatively easy - I didn't pick it up until I was 14 and passed grade 5 1 year later and then grade 8 when I was 16 and went on to study at university. But it is MY instrument - I love it and found it easy to play. But I was older, more experienced, and more dedicated.

It used to be universally acknowledged that you could get to grade 3 woodwind or brass in the time it would take to get to grade 1 piano or strings, and even the AB acknowledged that, the claim being that it all evened out in the end. At one stage woodwind and brass exams didn't even start until grade 3.

liz

Which I think it does, to be honest. And it wasn't all that long ago that grades 1 and 2 were introduced for woodwind and brass...

Since the last syllabus revision there is a large gap (IMHO quite unjustified either musically or technically ) between Grades 1 and 2 piano. So I don't think it depends entirely on the instrument but also on the people who decide what to put in the syllabus.

As far as comparing instuments is concerned I think the very nature of an instrument will dictate a different learning curve. Grade 1 Descant Recorder is a cinch compared with Grade 1 piano and I would say Grade 1 flute falls somewhere between these two. But by Grade 5 things are beginning to even out and I rather suspect that what is expected of a Grade 8 player on any instrument will be roughly equivalent in terms of technique and interpretation.

Certainly the aural tests are the same for all candidates. That too might be argued as unequal as since they are given on a piano they are probably easier for pianists to hear. But there again, by Grade 8 I think all that will have been ironed out. Pianists have the disadvantage that after Grade 1 they have to sight read two clefs at once but they have the advantage that the notes are there under the fingers and they don't have to worry about correct intonation.

Swings and roundabouts?

May I make a comment about piano/organ comparison.

I would say that , piano standards/ difficulties at higher grades (and Dip A) are more or less the same as in the early to mid 60's when I was doing those exams.
But Organ syllabus seems to have become much more difficult . I have an Organ ABRSM Gr 8 merit (would have been Distinction but for making a mess of some aurals), and actually took ATCL (but failed). However there are several Gr8 pieces now I could never hope to play properly. The standard has altered by around a Grade. Grade 8 pieces then are usually grade 7 now, or in one case I can think of Grade 6 .
Today I would consider Grade 8 organ quite an achievement, certainly harder than doing a Grade 8 piano.

I think it is impossible to compare.

Purely from a teaching perspective, I find pupils can reach grade 1 flute standard before most can piano, just because of the two staves. However, that is just getting to the exam stage. When it comes to what it takes to actually pass the exam, both take the same amount of work. The particular problem most people (including myself) have with grade 4/5 aural where style and period are introduced and grade 8 being generally vile is obviously applicable across the exams.

From a playing perspective, I was preparing grade 7 flute when I started piano. I found the piano quite easy and took grade 8 piano at the same time as grade 7 flute (and failed, but only by 4 marks) which would suggest that the piano, for me, was a walk in the park. However, learning the piano made the sight reading tests in grades 7/8 flute ridiculously simple just because I only had to worry about one stave at a time. They really did help each other equally (learning piano obviously being helped because I could read music and play one instrument to a high level already).

I also tried to learn the violin, it was my first instrument, but I didn't even make grade 1 I found it so difficult and even now from a compositional point of view have not grasped how the string family works. But I know string players who wouldn't touch a piano or wind instrument with a barge pole.

Some instruments seem to suit some people better than others. I don't really get wind instruments, abd feel much happier with the idea of playing piano and strings. I'm the opposite to my son, in fact.

I would find brass instruments would mess with my mind , but know plenty of brass players who double on other instruments in different instrumental families...

I don't like the sensation of my lips vibrating against the mouth piece.

Neither do I...

My first instrument was euphonium. Played for a couple of years starting around age 9/10. Can't really remember much about it (other than I hated it!) but I was playing in the school orchestra relatively quickly with minimal practice (not because I was good...I reckon the orchestra standard must have just been bad!)

Took up piano 2 years ago (age 25). Working on grade 4 material now. I haven't found it challenging BUT I have practiced properly and I really enjoy it. Did grade 1 exam in 4 months. Violin on the other hand...AAARRGGGHHHH! After a year of regular lessons I still find it soooooooo hard! I practice about half that I would for piano. Grade 1 material I found much harder than piano. Grade 2 stuff now I am finding pretty close to impossible.

So for all I know the grades might be fairly evenly matched, but my strength clearly does not rest with violin so I wouldn't know lol!

I think it's horses for courses. Some people just find one type of instrument hard and others easy.

Me, I started on piano, which I found relatively easy. I tried violin (at a fairly early age) and didn't have a clue. Same goes for the guitar, on which I also started young.

It seems any instrument where one hand holds down the note and the other plays it is unnatural for me for some reason.

Then in my early thirties I tried my first wind instrument and took to it like a duck to water. Go figure.

I privately

Just looked at the syllabus..I make piano grade 1 scales 6., 7 if you choose to count C major contrary motion as different.

I've never really played any instrument but have a child who has tried piano, woodwind and strings.

I think we've come to the conclusion thjat there is not really much between these instruments and as someone else said their may be differences and the "leaps" in grade difficulty may occure at different times but they are fairly similar by grade 8.

I would never suggest piano isn't difficult but then again so is oboe and all the wind instrtuments require some physical strength. The breathing and support may come more naturally to some people than the finger movement required on piano but it doesn't actually mean it's easier.

took me 8 years to get to grade 8 violin/piano, 8 months to get to grade 8 clarinet and 6 months to get to grade viola. No, I don't think they're all equal, think of the difference between no. of scales in gr 8 violin/piano. Personally I think its partly instrument based, partly previous experience and partly natural aptitude. x