Is it just me or is there a big leap in difficulty between grade 7 and 8? I've been working through the TG and ABRSM grade 7 pieces and have managed to get to grips with them reasonably easily. I've had a bash (literally!) at the grade 8 pieces and find them almost impossibly difficult in places.

I had hoped to sit grade 8 in the summer, but it seems unlikely that I'll be ready as they are so hard! I'm a bit despondent really as I seem to have a hit a plateau and can't break through to the next level.

Any suggestions on how to progress?

There is, in my opinion, quite a leap from grade 7 to 8. I took mine a couple of years ago, with a 6 month gap between, getting merit in both. However, I had to put in a great deal of practise concentrating only on the 3 selected pieces and the studies (LCM). Some of the other G8 pieces I still can't play and, for some of them, I don't think I ever could however hard I practised.
I think the answer therefore, if passing is your main aim, is to pick your pieces and practise as much as possible, even at the expense of other, non exam, pieces you want to play.
Good luck, the satisfaction in passing does make it all seem worthwhile.

No, it isn't just you.
I've been trying to play 2 Grade 8 pieces - although I haven't done my Grade 7 exam, which is due in June next year - and in the words of my teacher, they are really much more difficult than the Grade 7 ones.
I'm struggling with a Bach Partita in C minor (last movement, Capriccio) and with a lovely melody by Rachmaninoff (Lists A and C, respectively) and it is taking ages to get the notes well, to make them sound fluent, expressive, etc. etc. I've been doing Bach's [/i] for about 6 months and the Rachmaninoff for 4 and they are not by any means ready yet.
I become discouraged, too, especially when I look at the date I started them on, but tell myself that I'll do as much as is required to get where I want to get. You see, determination is the greatest advantage of us adult students ( I'm 54).
I put in 2-3 hours' practice per day but am learning about 7 different things at the same time, plus scales, arpeggios in root position and 1st inversion, plus scales in double thirds which I am learning for fun, so I devote merely about 20 minutes to each puece/?tude, on average and that is not much. If I cut down on the number of pieces/?tudes and concentrated for longer on each piece each day, progress might be faster but at the moment that is what it is like as among the lot are the Grade 7 exam pieces I'll be playing in June for my exam.

That Capriccio should never have been set for Grade 8. I cannot play it , yet I find little difficulty in th Fsharp minor P & F from WTC Book 2 which is on Licentiate Dip !

I really like it, though I can't play it at the very fast pace set by Martha Argerich on YouTube. IMO it sounds fine at crotchet=76 for grade 8. It took me a while to learn it, but I find as with many Bach pieces that there's so much in it that it holds the attention across the months and doesn't go stale. I'm not sure I'd dare to play it in an exam though, as it demands so much more concentration than e.g. Scarlatti Sonata in F# minor, which I would probably play in preference in an exam, but which really isn't nearly as absorbing a piece.

You say "... it took me a while to learn it" and I'd be interested to know how long you took. Comparisons are odious, I know, but I feel I go ahead at a snail's pace ... especially when the piece is so demanding as this Capriccio.
I'm learning the Scarlatti, as well, and I'm not having half as much difficulty learning that as the Capriccio. I sort of put it together in one month and there is now a lot of polishing, speeding up and so on but I think I'll make a better job of that one than of the Bach capriccio ... and I like the Scarlatti very much, too.

In contrast to my earlier comment re the Capriccio, the Scarlatti F#Minor (Nice key !) is barely Grade8 standard I would say.

I feel that one big difference in grade 7 - 8 is the stamina needed to play for longer and I have realised that I need to start playing my three pieces one after the other just to keep up the concentration for playing for a longer period. r.

I definitely found a huge jump between Grade 7 and 8 - and it took me 2 years between Grade 7 and 8. (Granted part of the reason was because I didn't practice...!)

I agree with scotliz about the stamina needed - from what I remember my Grade 8 pieces were about twice as long as my Grade 7 ones. Much more fun to play though...

Unti a few years ago you had to play a whole Sonata for list B, well daughter did in about 1994or5. That's at least 15-20 mins in one go

Well, I'm very naughty about practising regularly because I don't have lessons at the moment. I got the Anthology for a Christmas present last year, and probably spent the first 6 months of the year having a look at most of the A and B pieces from time to time (not so keen on the Cs). I started work properly on the Bach in September, and it's still not quite at performance standard, but not far off. It's hard to say how many hours I've spent on it, but I feel it's probably taken me half as long again to learn that as it did the Partita No.2 in C minor Movement 1 from the previous anthology. I tend to have a week when I'll practise the piece I'm working on for an hour a day, as well as 30 mins scales and Hanon; then life will intervene and I won't play at all for 2 or 3 weeks. I expect at 20 minutes a day it is bound to take you a long time, but you will get there in the end. As long as you sort out comfortable fingering it will be fine; it's just a question of knowing the piece well enough, which comes from lots of repetition.

The Scarlatti is much, much easier to learn. I agree with f#m that it's on the low difficulty side of grade 8 pieces. It's not yet as far on as the Bach though, because I get fed up of playing it much more quickly!

I have a pupil doing Grade 8, hopefully next summer. He did Grade 7 last July, and against my better judgement we went straight on to Grade 8 as he needs it for entry to music college/university. He got distinction at GRade 7, but is finding the Grade 8 pieces difficult. bordering on struggling with them at the moment. I don't know how much practice he's putting in so if he's not doing much then it's not surprising he's having problems. He's doing the Trygve Madsen Prelude and Fugue, the John Field thing, and King for a Day. Would love him to have at least one of them with all the notes known and played slowly, by Christmas

The Bach Capriccio and the Rachmaninoff Melody are driving me crazy but I'm enjoying every bit of the learning process. They seem ages away from the Grade 7 pieces I'll play in my exam next June and I know I'm doing things (far) in advance but the problem is that with about 7 pieces/?tudes to practise, I only have about 20 minutes for each per day and that is a lot as I always do plenty of scales/arpeggios and so on.
How do you see having so many things to keep going?

*sigh* the Capriccio. I love that piece, it sounds so good at a reasonable pace, just not too quick like the guideline. It is very hard, but so satisfying and so clever when you find out the voices. I prefer it to the schumann or the other one which I can't remember - both preludes and fugues.

Yes, the jump is fairly large. Though there are pieces from grade 7 that I'd say were grade 8 and vice-versa: Liszt Consolation No.3 a few years back, for example.

Well said, JamesK ... In the 2011-2012 Grade 7 syllabus there is a lovely Liszt Romance in E minor which drove me crazy for months until I decided to drop it ... and I'm playing some Grade 8 pieces which seem more feasible
The standards they use to select pieces for various grades sometimes seem rather loose, don't you think?

There is certainly quite a variation in difficulty within the pieces set for any grade, and I am inclined to agree it is getting wider. Certainly the Bach Capriccio and Scarlatti F#m are miles apart.
I have come to love Trygve Madsen and bought all 24 P & F's. No1 set for grade 8 has a relatively easy (and beautiful) Prelude, but is balanced by a quite complicated Fugue (isnt that often the case!), nevertheless a bit of work soon puts it in order, its an OK selection for Gr 8, and madbassoonist did well with it recently. (I am playing half a dozen others now)

There are two aspects about learning a piece, one is the technical element, the second, the musical element.

Technically, it is easy to bash out the Scarlatti sonata in f# minor it looks so easy on the page. However, there are no clues as to dynamics and lots of cross hands, the scope musically is enormous. On top of that I did not like euther the Pehria or Horowitz recordings, both were too slow and too romanticised.

So initially, a piece that looks like a walk in the park actually has some complexity.

The Cappricio on the other hand has been recorded several times, and technically is harder, however musically gives far more clues away about interpretation. Neither piece is a safe option as both can go stupendously wrong under examination conditions or spectacularly well.

By Grade 8, one should be looking at a combination of musical and technical features and not just 'can I technically get my hands around this'.

The technical work should be concentrated on all those scales and arpeggios that everyone (including me) moans about.

Sure I failed grade 8 in the summer and I am still pending this seasons results, however the one thing I have learnt through taking it is that the music matters as much if not more so than simply getting my hands around three pieces. Slow and targetted practice can get my hands around many things I previously thought impossible (bar physical size) however musical intent is something more intuitive and felt. Until that is thoroughly ingrained, then don't go for Grade 8, regardless of how good your scales and arpeggios are, and certainly do not consider any higher exams.

Jod - I think that is a fantastic piece of advice

Some great advice here - thank you all, and I'm very pleased it's not just me thinking there was a leap between the two grades. I certainly didn't find the same difference when doing flute exams. I think I'll have to rethink the possibility of grade 8 until the end of next year as I want to be really secure in both musicality and technical ability. I've really only been playing "properly" for about 3 months after a 30 years lay off so probably could do with a bit more time...

Part of the problem is not having a teacher I think so that my practising is a little hit and miss and not as effective as it could be. Earlier in the thread technical exercises such as Hanon were mentioned - I've seen some negative comments about Hanon/Dohnanyi etc and some positive ones too. Are they worth doing? I have Hanon, Czerny and Dohnanyi but tend to look at them and quickly find something else to play!

Do them as a warm up

When talking about the very high degree of difficulty of the Bach Capriccio, I was referring to the dififculty getting the notes right at the proper speed ... without that you cannot pass on to the more musical aspects, as far as I can judge.

Believe me Juan Carlos, I have learnt both pieces in the last six months. The Scarlatti is the the more 'grabby', yet my conclusion is each is as difficult. There are some corners in the Scarlatti that are deceptive even though the Bach looks the more difficult. After sorting out the immediate difficulties, the Bach starts to reveal some tricks to learning it (even at speed).

Plus it is far more easy to develop cramp playing the Scarlatti than the Bach as the Bach gives one the ability to stretch out.

Each piece has its technical difficulties. It is very easy to judge unless you have actually spent the same time learning them.

I'm afraid I'll never say that two pieces are at the same level of difficulty when one takes me 4 months to learn (only the notes, I mean, the purely mechanical aspect) and another one 1 and a half, especially if the one that took the longer was studied during the period of the year when I am less busy, i..e. the summer.
I may agree that various pieces involve very different types of skills but not that they have the same degree of difficulty. In this case (Scarlatti's Sonata in F# minor vs. Bach Capriccio) I think the difference is blatant.

I completely agree.

Why is it that I'm getting tempted to have a look at these pieces myself and see how long they take to learn??

It can be surprising how the different the perception of difficulty can be from person to person.
I've had teachers comment on things they see as difficult which I had relatively little problem getting to grips with.
There are undoubtedly some pieces which are almost universally difficult but I think there's an awful lot more out there on which opinion differs.

No doubt ... but few people would say this Bach Capriccio is easy from any points of view ... however ... on second thoughts, perhaps people like Gould or Argerich might say so ...

Juan Carlos it did not take me that much longer getting the nuts and bolts right for either of these pieces, they presented different challenges.

I have very small hands, and so on Paper one would expect the Bach to be the harder, yet the challenges were different.

I have spent time learning things where my left hand has had to jump around and I've also had to transfer parts across hands and I've also crossed hands too. Technique is more complicated than scales and arpeggios.

In a word - no!

I admit you have been learning for a relatively short period of time, which is precisely why I am suggesting consolidating your technique by using studies and technical repertoire that is not necessarily being prepared for an exam.

This would be the advice I would offer anyone else at the same stage of their development as a musician. It is very easy to get caught up one one or two areas of progress and fail to see the bigger picture, one that is much easier to spot after over 30 years from setting out as a beginner and still recognising there is lots to learn.

LOL, I have been doing the same!

I don't have the Scarlatti but whilst I can play the Beethoven fairly accurately at the metronome speed and sightread the Field, the Bach is difficult even fairly slowly and I can't get past the second bar at the metronome speed.

The Bach interests me the most though!

What is the metronome speed? There isn't one in the Anthology, and I've been trying to guess what the recommended speed is from YouTube recordings, and what sounds OK to me.

I've got the ABRSM book and it says crotchet = c. 88

Strange thing is I actually think it sounds nice played slowly. I wonder what would happen it you played it slowly in the exam?

It is a beautiful piece and, as you say, it is no less beautiful when played slowly ... I've had plenty of opportunities to enjoy slow renderings ... as I cannot possibly go beyond crotchet = 60 or so.

I've been playing it at crotchet = 76, which I think sounds fine although it's much slower than some of the professional versions; I might try to do it a little faster if that's the suggested tempo, but it's important to keep the smoothness of course. I don't think it matters too much about a small variation in tempo, as long as it sounds good musically, but I don't think you should play pieces any slower than 3/4 suggested speed. People tend to play faster on the exam day anyway because the adrenalin kicks in.

The metronome was patented in 1815. J S Bach died in 1750. Any metronome markings on his compositions are editorial suggestions and are not Bach's own.

True ... a very wise (and relieving!) comment ...
So the 88 crotchet might very well be a 66?

LOL, I'm with you on this one Juan Carlos!

You will almost certainly find that when you know the piece a little better it will speed up. The bit I found hardest to play up to speed was for some reason bars 53-54, but after a bit of concentrated practice it was fine. I initially thought that bars 81-86 would be the worst, but they sound so nice that I found I played them more and for a while they were the part of the piece I could play fastest!

I think it's all down to how ready your fingers are for the next note, which comes with repetition. And as Mad Tom used to say, sometimes if I've had a week or two away from the piano and then try the piece again, miraculously my fingers seem to know the piece better than when I last practised!

Very true, BerkshireMum ... which is why practising slowly pays dividends ... in the long run ...
On many occasions I'va found that as the piece feels more and more secure (and that comes with much controlled repetinion), speed increases of itself, almost effortlessly. This is exactly what is happening to me with A Chopin Waltz I'm doing - Op. 69 N. 2, which is comfortably within the level of a Grade 6is/7ish student - and with this Bach capriccio which, I think, is (slightly) above the standard required for Grade 8.
I guess the trouble is more psychological than anything else, at least with me. It is all about overcoming that feeling that the piece will never come any faster that sometimes hits while one waits for it to become secure. One plays it so many times in 'slow motion', so to speak, that the very thought of the piece played faster appears inconceivable. I always remember the words of a former teacher of mine "we mostly play with our brains rather than with our hands ..." but of course the latter are necessary
Back to the Bach Capriccio. Bar 53 requires focused practice to get the soft, smooth sequence required in the LH and this is not very comfortable, in addition, my teacher says that that run in the LH should be quite audible.
Bars 81-86: I had exactly the same experience as you and i was thinking just yesterday how unattainable thet bit looked at first and how much easier it proved to be later.
I've also had to 'struggle' with bar 9, and the RH movement of the fingers still feels uncomfortable; less than before but I still cannot feel it flow smoothly.
The problem I am trying to solve now is handling the upbeat quavers which echo the very beginning (B. 1) as I tend to play those too loudly in other passages (e.g. b. 19 LH, b. 28 RH - the D; bar 35 RH, the C and so on).
I think I may have reached the stage when it would be best to drop the piece for some 2 weeks or so and give it a 'silent period of learning'. I'll talk it over with my teacher.

On the basis that a Capriccio is "capricious" I think that gives each of us considerable freedom to choose our own tempo which fits the character of the piece and the way we wish to play it. I now take it at about 100 crotchets per minute which is quite exciting in the context of rounding off the whole partita and contrasting with the other 5 movements. I agree with previous posters that it's quite a big ask for grade 8, especially to voice some of the counterpoint effectively at speed. And going back to the original question, definitely a substantial jump from g7.


Jon

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the Bach Capriccio. I don't remember having a problem with bar 9, and am a bit confused about your remarks re playing the quavers too loudly. The performance notes in the back of the Anthology say:"A good plan is to perform the piece as if it is a fugue, highlighting each "entry" of the opening subject", so I'd assumed that the quavers you mention were meant to be dominant. Why does your teacher think you are playing them too loudly?


I am quite envious of your ability to play this piece at that speed. And of your ability to play the other 5 movements! Maybe a few years on... who knows?

When I spoke about not playing the quavers too loudly, I was referring to the upbeat quavers all throughout, not to the quavers in general.
Have a look at Bar 1. In the RH, the G is on the upbeat and the 'stress' - if you can call it that - should be sort of carried over onto the rext note (the C), as if this 'weak' G led on to the C which are, by the way, the dominant and tonic in the key of the piece (C minor). All through the piece, this pattern consisting of an upbeat quaver leading on to the somehow stronger quaver on the beat (comparable to what happens in language when pronouncing unaccented + accented syllable, as in the word "repeat") occurs many times in both hands. The entries, as you say, should be made audible enough to bring them out sufficiently but still bearing in mind that many entries start on an upbeat quaver and these should be clearly audible bot not accented, which requires great control. In some passages of this piece, I tend to give full force to both quavers (the one on the upbeat and the one on the beat) and this is an error in phrasing which my teacher has often corrected, with reason, of course.
What makes b. 9 difficult (for me) is a combination of factors: the somehow awkward passage of the fourth over the fifth (RH) and the double note which comes immediately after that plus the two held notes (E and C), all of which must sound fluent, fast and also musical.
Also, the upbeat quavers in the sequences in tenths (bb 10-13, b 21 LH, b 39 RH, bb 62-63 LH, bb 81-86 LH, which echo bb 10-13 and so on and so forth) should be comparatively weaker and the jump sometimes makes this diffucult to achieve, especially when the tenths are ascending (not so hard in b 62-63, which are descending)
It is incredible how much can be said of just one piece after one has become familiar with it and how many details must be seen to to obtain a musical performance; even a 'soulless' one is sometimes hard to achieve with such difficult pieces, let alone an inspired and expressive one!

Juan, I don't know of this particular Bach Capriccio piece but I do play a few of Bach's Preludes and Fugues, have you played much Bach before? It could perhaps help to get used to playing more baroque music?

My teacher recommends lots of hand seperately practise for baroque music, getting each hand exactly were you want it (regards to phrasing, dynamics etc.) then put together, it really works

Yes, but in my hurry to learn to play the piano fast, in these 5 and a half years I sort of 'raced' my way through many movements of French Suites, 2-part Inventions and so on ... and although my teacher keeps suggesting Hands separate practice I find it so laborious that I often pass on to hands together much too soon ... shame on me! I think that hands separate practice is what I should do ... just because I find it so hard (and rather boring ...) but I know it works. thanks for the advice ... I'll see to it my teacher does not know about it ...

This is probably advice you don't want to hear ... you perhaps need to slow down a little some pieces take a long time to learn

Sight reading is a wonderful skill to have though. Do you play your piano with others, perhaps accompanying other instrument or doing duets?

Don't feel envious, it took me absolutely ages to learn it (A frustrating 8 months for the whole partita, of which the Capriccio is probably the most tricky). The speed sorts itself out once secure at lower tempi.

If you get the chance, give the second movement (Allemande) a go, absolutely beautiful if you can get the two parts to converse nicely with each other.

Yes youre right, I play most of the Partita OK, but struggle still with the Capriccio ! The Allemande is rather nice

Right! I now understand what you mean about the weak quavers. I think, as Pixie*Porsche suggests, that a bit of separate hands practice would help with this, and also with the jumps of a tenth. It's best always to play at a speed where you feel you can control what you are doing. I know it's tempting to up the speed and forget the control, but you have to believe that it will happen automatically in the end and not be in too much of a hurry to force the pace. Benjy's remarks have made me feel that a few more weeks of practice may help me get my speed a little faster (thanks, Benjy!), and I'm sure you will find that too.

I think you must be using rather strange fingering in bar 9, as I don't have the passage of the 4th over the 5th - that sounds a nightmare! Are you playing the held middle C with the right hand? It's much easier to play it with the left as suggested in the Anthology fingering. My RH fingering starts with 2 on Eb, held while 5 plays C; then 3 on F#, thumb under to G, 3 on A, etc Meanwhile the left hand plays the held C with the thumb and carries on down the scale. It's actually quite a straightforward bar, unless I am missing something.

Thanks a lot for the post, much of which I find very enlightening. Thanks for sharing thoughts and tips.
I usually (nay, always!) have great difficulty wating for the right speed in a piece to come naturally, that is one of my worst shortcomings, and it sometimes leads to messing up pieces only because, as you say, I force the pace.
This may have to do with my age (54, so I'm in a greater hurry than, say, adolescents or young people to get a piece learnt, and learnt well!) or simply - more probably - with my nature. My teacher keeps repeating that I should study slowly, do HS practice and I do follow this advice but take great pains to keep my anxiety in check and I soon speed up the piece of my own accord (i.e. without her suggesting I should do it) and then get it wrong or even memorise the odd wrong note. I sometimes go on to consolidate that by repetition over the weeks/months to then reqalise, at one stage, that oh!, that's not what is written on the score ... Slow practice, advocated by most everybody - if not everybody - is the one aspect of piano practice that I haven't been able to handle satisfactorily so far. In addition, having been a passionate music lover since I was about 10, I often know what the 'finished piece' should sound like, which adds to my impatience. So much so for introspection ...
Back to Back ... sorry to Bach ... . Since I started learning the Capriccio I have followed the fingering suggested in the ABRSM book almost blindly. In the passage in question, the book suggests playing the middle C as a doucle note with F# (fingers 1-3), the G with finger 4, the A with finger 5 and the Bb with finger 4 (this is the awkward passage), to then play the dougle note - F#/C with fingers 2-5. Although we often look for alternative fingerings and re-distribute chords between the RH and LH (as happened with the beautiful Rachmaninoff Melody in E, which is on List C for Grade 8), on this occasion I - or my teacher never thought of that option. I'll put it to her and will definitely try and see how it feels.
I play the wholeCapriccio at about 72 to a crotchet (and I know that's on the rather slow side, so the 100 that Benjy speaks about is simply unattainable at the moment as is learning a whole Partita in 8 months for me). What speed do you take it at?
By the way, are you playing any other Grade 8 pieces?

My Capriccio is coming along nicely. My daughter has heard it so often this week that she has taken up the challenge as well!