Hi. My darling son has recently taken up playing the mini bassoon. As he is only 7 , I imagine he will not be 'graduating' to a full size for at least 3 years. He was horrified to find out however that he can only take grade 3 on the mini bassoon . My daughter by the age of 10 was preparing for her grade 7 violin and played to grade 5 standard on at least 4 other instruments. Can anyone tell me please why AB has this rule ? Thanks.

Maybe it's to do with being able to do justice to the repertoire?

If he does turn out to progress very quickly to a technically and musically high level at an early age as his sister has why not let him enjoy music for it's own sake rather than as being reliant on exams?
He can then jump in at whatever level is appropriate when he's grown into a full sized instrument.

I agree competely.

And I also agree that it's likely to do with really doing justice to the music, and being able to demonstrate sufficient technical skill on what is, after all, not the 'right' instrument.

Maybe the closest parallel is with soprano cornet being permissible under the trumpet syllabus at all grades - in that case, it's a standard part of brass band instrument, so it's not a 'trainer' instrument.

MNW has a 10-year-old son who plays a "normal" bassoon.

And don't forget that there are also short-reach bassoons which is what a lot of 9/10 year-olds start on.

I agree - but sometimes it's nice for the kids to be able to work towards an exam - whatever the ability..and feel that a musical kid on a mini bassoon, a c clarinet or whatever is going to do a lot more justice to the repertoire than some other kids on full size instruments. I hardly feel my daughter did justice to her grade 7 pieces on a cheap 3/4 size violin - or grade 5 on her 1/2 size, before we bought her a decent full size either !

That's true, but the examiners would have to be able to differentiate between the very musical, the technically competent, the vaguely adequate and the not good enough. And they'd have to be able to do it as accurately as they can with a full-size instrument, to be fair to those players.

I don't know a lot about bassoons but I think the mini bassoon is pitched a 5th above...so you can't just simply take bassoon music to play without having a transposed piano part. There may not be suitable repertoire available above Grade 3.

Another consideration is that maybe reduced key work/ range means it isn't possible to meet the technical requirements of grade 4 and higher on a mini bassoon. Just a guess though.

They could include permission for manuscript transcriptions to be used in exams - they do this for tuba, which can be examined on a Bb, C, Eb or F instrument. (Edit: and also in either concert pitch bass clef or transposing treble clef for any of those!)

Unlikely one would get past that level before about 10/11 on bassoon, possibly as it is physically so demanding, even a mini presumably. Even those in the NCO under 11s seem to have full size bassoons. Also my teacher said there are short reach full size bassoons.

If exams worry you that much can't he do them on more accessible instruments (eg piano, recorder etc.) until bassoon catches up? Many wait until teenage years before doing bassoon properly and catch up fast so it shouldn't hold him back.

Bassoons are in demand so fear not.

I wouldn't be surprised if music is transposed up to grade 5 at some point as there seems to have been an uptake in tenoroons and a new Children's bassoon has also been developed which is half way between a bassoon and tenoroon.

BB played on a tenoroon for about 6 months, although he never practised and messed about on it. He then moved onto a full size (he was 8) and then to a short-reach (only one available) and is now back on a full size (at age 10). So it is perfectly feasible that your son will manage a short-reach in a few years. I'm not a huge fan of the tenoroon as I don't believe it can teach the correct technique for progression onto a bassoon. If I had another child and they were small I certainly wouldn't consider starting them on bassoon until at least the age of 10. BB is a strapping lad, but on the whole it would be best to focus on the recorder to develop musicianship and then pick up the bassoon later. I know lots of second study 12 year old bassoonists who got to grade 8 easily within two years of picking it up having previously played clarinet or flute.

I should add that it took a good two years for BB to get to grade 3 and then half a year to get to grade 5. His time to grade 6 was a couple of months from grade 5. My point is that it can take a youngster a long time to make more than average progress on the bassoon but once they have developed more, in physical terms, the rate of progress seems to accelerate.

But you wouldn't give it to a 7 year old Owain. It's a beast of an instrument to master and although permissible none of the repertoire is playable by a soprano cornet on the lists unless you transpose the piano parts or it specifically says "soprano cornet" which generally only happens on the G7 and G8 lists. That's why Trinity don't bring it in until G6 upwards - just like bass trombone.

It's more like only being able to do grades 1-3 on a mini-french horn.

...which is explicitly permitted by the syllabus, and so this could also be allowed for mini bassoons, and therefore cannot be the reason for stopping them at grade 3.

(Agreed that it's a beast, though )

These are good reasons. Mini bassoon transposes a 5th above (tenoroon a 4th) and only has a pitch range of about 2 octaves. It doesn't have the crook key/speaker keys you need for the higher range so the techniques you need for the pitches above middle F (which would sound a 5th higher than that when you play) just aren't there on the mini bassoon. Developing the thumb technique to move around the speaker keys/crook key is crucial for making the higher pitches sound clearly and for being able to play music which jumps around the full range of the instrument.

Transposing accompaniments is another issue - piano accompaniments are not necessarily very simple at lower grades and the higher the bassoon grade doesn't make the piano parts any easier. I have one beginner's bassoon book (which I bought for teaching last year) with transposed piano parts for mini-bassoon but there are not many of these around currently. Some accompanists would probably be able to transpose it and work on it given some time but it's obviously much easier to sight-read at pitch.

My daughter started aged 11 on a full size bassoon, and a year later is grade 3 level and starting to work on grade 4. I was told to get a full sized rather than a short reach unless there was no way she could cope. She already played piano and flute, so it isn't her first instrument.

Some accompanists would probably be able to transpose it and work on it given some time but it's obviously much easier to sight-read at pitch.

- I agree - having spent all afternoon writing out accompaniments for grade 8 songs that vocalists can sing in any key !!! - GRRRRRRR!!!!!