Hi all,

I know the next question will sound like I am joking. But actually I am not. I was asked a question and I could not answer it because I excepted what I learned as a fact or never thought about questioning it. And now, I really would like to know the answer to it, too.

Why is it that F-Dur contains a B flat?

I can explain it with the algebraic measurements in the circle of fifth. But I know that the one asking the question was not satisfied with my answer, and to tell the truth, neither was I.

Why does F-Dur need the B flat to make it sounding harmonic again? - Well, I hope someone in here is craving for the same insane meticular answers as obviously I (and my student) do. How would you explain it?

It's the arrangement of tones and semitones that makes up what we know as the major scale.

Simply because in order to sound like a major scale it must follow a pattern which dictates that there is an interval of a semitone between the third and fourth degrees.

Or at least, that's how I understand it.

Yes. Agree with sbhoa and Czerny.

Thanks, those answers are welcome. But, although I know what you mean, I know that the answer would still be unsatisfactory to my student, as it would have been to me.

What I have in mind, but what I obviously lack the knowledge or the phrasing ability is, that the F major scale sounds off when you play it without the Bb. To make it sound right again, you have to diminish the B to B flat. And that is because ....

Guys, is that the TTS thingy? Is this where I pull out a keyboard sketch and demonstrate that whatever scale in the circle of fifth demands whatever amount of flats or sharps, the TTS will always be the same and then demonstrate on the white and black keyboard keys where the TTS in those cases are?

Am I right? If yes, that actually might lead with a nice, tasteful phrasing and not overloading information to a satisfactory answer.

Which already leads me to the next question in this respect: Why is it that every fifth note of a scale will lead to the next scale; not the fourth, not the sixth, but the fifth? (my mind works thus: because it is logic, no need to ask such stupid question)

Geez, I think I might be tying up some loose ends in my mind here. Phew. It is quite different to get the knowledge from books myself compared to explaining it to others or getting it explained. In the latter case, you can just pass on a satisfactory answer you were once given yourself. In the former case, you just tie loose ends yourself, diving deeper and deeper into a subject until you grasp it to your own satisfaction but without realizing that you just accept things others might not accept because of knowledge already gained covering another factor that makes understanding easier but cannot be introduced at once in one lesson because the bite from the cake would be to huge to swallow.

If you want the big long answer, which some pupils appreciate, it goes right back to medieval musical theories, which didn't focus on octaves, but on hexachords. Six notes, all separated by tones, except for the centre which had a semitone. Hexachords starting on C, F and G overlapped to provide the available notes. Our modern F major scale would, in medieval eyes, be seen as a hexachord on F, giving the semitone to B flat, switching to one on C, giving the semitone E-F.

They also had a solmisation system based around hexachords - 'ut re mi fa sol la' - and would switch to a different hexachord when singing these syllables, rather like movable-do solfege.

Sidenote: the bottom note in this whole system was called the 'gamma ut', and is the origin of the word 'gamut'.

Yes.

... makes understanding easier but cannot be introduced at once in one lesson because the bite from the cake would be to huge to swallow.

Ah. One of the conundrums that makes teaching interesting. How much information is appropriate for my student at this stage?

Ah yeah, now we are getting somewhere. That loose end seems to have found its counterpart. Tx.



Interesting concept. I think that will make it on my list for a deep dive at a later point when some more urgent questions are answered. Thanks for the suggestion.

I was doing this today with a teenage boy, grade 1 piano (with me) but grade 4+ on a brass instrument.

He wanted to learn a new scale. I suggested one - he worked it out by ear. Ok fine. But why does that sound right? cue tones and semitones. Right so you can work out any major scale you like. Let's try F# major
'Oh I play that one on the horn' ' ah ok, not that one then. B flat major?' ' I play that one too'

Hmm. I want to find one that you don't already know, so I can get you to think tones and semitones. If you already know the scale it's not the same. We finally settle on A flat major. 'Do it with one finger so the fingering doesnt' get in the way'.

He found that by playing C major with his left hand, and the unfamiliar scale with his right hand, he could match tones and semitones, and get it to come out right.

I find this kind of thing useful with a certain type of personality, almost always boys, who persist in a genuinely inquisitive way with the 'but why?' reponses. Overwhelming them with information, as a demonstration of how it's impossible to go into a full explanation in one lesson, can work as a way to get them focussed on learning what they need to know now, leaving the rest for later. (Use sparingly and with care, though, otherwise you just come across as a smart-bottom )

(Edited to get around the prude-filter )

I am somewhat at a disadvantage here since the flute only is one tone only. But, you are certainly right about one thing. One I certainly still have major difficulties with, which is that you need to THINK tones. I found that out when I finally got a hang of the minor scales which took me an eternity. Which is, why I try to get her THINKING in the scale she is playing. I think, I might even have had a good start with that. It probably should work with the TTS thingy as well, considering the strategy to do so is the right one.

Maybe some singing of the scale and of little fragments of it, with you playing or singing along to help, would be of benefit?

This is the beauty of relative solfa - a major scale is always do re mi fa so la ti do, with the semitones between m-f and t-d', regardless of what note you start on.

Maybe it helps to take a look on this page.

I love teaching scales because it always seems to be such a revelation to people. The way I do it is to first teach tones and semitones - I think you need to do this on a piano/picture of a piano. A semitone is the next note (which may be black or white) and a tone is the next but one (again, it may be white or black). I ask them to play/identify a selection of these, particularly E>F and B>C which often confuse.

Secondly, they must understand sharps and flats (i.e. sharp raises by a semitone, flat lowers by a semitone - when asked "what does a sharp do to a note", "makes it sharper" is not an acceptable answer )

Once they understand these concepts, then you can move on to major scales. It's useful if they already know C major as it provides a starting point. As them to work out the TTSTTTS pattern. When counting tones/semitones, I try to get pupils to play them as pairs, then it avoids any confusion about whether you include the one your on etc. when counting (this is also useful for my method of teaching intervals later on).

Once they know the pattern, as others have said, they should be able to work out a major scale beginning on any note. I usually ask for G major and F major first. I then remind them that you can only use each letter name once, and then I get them to do Gb major (they need to know about the letter names otherwise we'll get Gb, Ab, Bb, B etc. rather than Gb, Ab Bb, Cb etc.)

Once they've established the major scale pattern, moving on to the natural then harmonic and melodic minor is relatively easy.

Slightly off topic, I realised the other day that a grade one theory book I was using (for the first, and I think the last time) introduces tones and semitones after writing major scales. That's one I won't be using again! Should have spotted it earlier, and I must make a note of which one it was. It's not the Lina Ng or the Ying Ying Ng grade one books, as I have those in front of me. This was one with a dark blue band on the cover top and bottom.

Of course you can rejig the order of the book. But it's handy if the book order makes some kind of sense.

Thanks for that link. It made me tie another loose end which I took for granted up to now. I think, I might now be able to explain that concept in reasonable portions over several lessons and answering 'odd kids questions'.

I think you're looking at this the wrong way round. It is because of the pattern which dictates the order of tones and semitones for any given scale that you end up with a particular set of sharps or flats (or sometimes both, in the case of a minor scale).

At the risk of opening a well-worn can of worms, I notice you are working towards Grade 6 in theory and practical. I think it's important that you are secure in your knowledge and understanding of basic theory (major scales appear on the Grade 1 syllabus) if you are going to be teaching this stuff.