QUOTE(ChrisC @ Dec 14 2011, 01:31 PM)
QUOTE(Celloman26 @ Dec 14 2011, 11:30 AM)
I regularly play bassoon in a few orchestras and whilst I value my tuner app for tuning prior to playing, I have noticed an ever-increasing trend of woodwind players who sit with their tuners on the stands and play according to tuner, not what they hear.
My last concert, it was particularly noticeable that certain pplayers were flat, but insisted the entire orchestra was harp according to their tuners (which was the case).
What is the point of playing with the tuners as a reference, as surely in detracts from the aural skills of listening to the harmonies around you?
Am learning cello at the moment and intonation is so difficult; it has had the effect of improving intonation in my bassoon playing, which I never thought was that bad previously. I think this perhaps explains my obession with intonation currently!
I would be interested in any thoughts on the matter above.
I think the first oboe may have a tuner in front of them while the orchestra is tuning, and thereafter they should be banned for everyone.
My opinion is that you use your ears to play in tune, not your eyes.
And furthermore, orchestras don't play in equal temperament, to play really in tune you have to adjust the ptich to the context.
Exactly the point I was going to make. ET is for keyboards. It's surprising how many musicians do not appreciate this - ET is a compromise to enable keyboards to play approximately in tune in all keys by being slightly out-of-tune in all of them.
By all means get the initial A from the meter, but nothing else.
Therefore, if you played exactly according to ET you would often be out-of-tune - especially if you have the third of the chord, which is far too wide in ET (have a read of 'How equal temperament ruined harmony and why you should care').
Playing the viol this is a major issue as ET is not appropriate for the bulk of the viol repertoire.
QUOTE(Flossie @ Dec 14 2011, 09:05 PM)
QUOTE(Celloman26 @ Dec 14 2011, 05:16 PM)
QUOTE(owainsutton @ Dec 14 2011, 03:58 PM)
My goodness, where do people get the idea to do this from?! I'm surprised any conductors tolerate it, so perhaps it's just because they can't see them in use, hidden on stands.
It's amazing what you see when you sit on the back row on the woodwinds....
Personally, I find the practice very irritating. Maybe its an amateur orchestra thing. I have no objection to using a tuner to tune intially, but when playing i don't see how it can be useful.
Unless you have perfect pitch, using your ears to tune will only work if the other orchestra members are in tune.
It is extremely difficult to tune by ear when you have strange sounds coming from the oboe next door whose reed doesn't like the cold weather, 3 variations on tuning from the flutes on your right, another variation from the clarinets, horns behind you attempting to transpose at sight whilst sightreading new music (and hitting rather interesting notes) and string players attempting to get their fingers around music they've never seen before...
In situations like this I see nothing wrong, if I think my tuning might be out, with temporarily putting a tuner on my stand so that I can get my flute in tune and thereby hopefully give a clearer lead to the rest of the section.
We obviously tune at the start, but tuning does tend to drift as instruments warm up and not all of the players are experienced enough to adjust whilst also trying to get round the notes and keep their place in the music. The oboist uses my tuner when we tune up at the start, so callibration is not an issue, and sometimes it temporarily goes on to his stand whilst we are playing.
Per my reply to other response, you're not going to get the right answer from teh meter - that's why you should not use them whilst playing (and to be honest many conductors probably do not understand this).
For example: if you have a chord of B (B D# F#) and you have the third of the chord and tune that D# to an ET meter, it will be WAY too sharp to be in tune. To be in tune, you would need to be FLAT compared to what the meter is telling you. Which is why we had the earlier comment of 'everyone was playing flat comapred to the meter'.
To be in tune harmonically, the diatonic (i.e. part of the key) sharps should be flattened and the diatonic flats should be sharpened.
To test this, play a continuous note that you can sing on a keyboard (electronic is easier - pick something with a 'clean' continuous sine-wave type sound). Sing the note and gradually increase in pitch by sliding up. You will hear a 'lock' when you reach in tune intervals. If you play the note (the 3rd, 4th, 5th etc) that you have reached you will find that the note you are singing does not agree with the keyboard: you are in tune, the keyboard has been tempered and so it is not in tune.