I've played piano for three years now and in that time I have taken exams up to Grade 5, in which I got a merit, though I would say that I can comfortably play more difficult pieces such as the prelude from Bach's English Suite No. 2, Chopin's Eb major nocturne and Beethoven's G major sonata Op 49. Up until the summer of this year, I studied with a fantastic local teacher (I was actually very sad when I finally had to stop lessons with her! ) but since then she has passed me onto a more advanced musician, who isn't actually a teacher but did agree to teach me. He is an absolutely incredible pianist and has performed extremely difficult pieces of music such as Rachmaninoff's piano concerti, Chopin's 27 etudes etc.
The thing is, since moving to study with him instead of my previous teacher, everything I play seems so much more difficult. Even simple pieces such as the one mentioned here by MadTom:



Now, my new piano teacher (being half-Irish) has a tremendous love of Field's music, and when I first played the aforementioned Nocturne for him he made everything seem much more complicated and difficult, talking about how I had to listen to the decay of each note and consequently decide upon the exact amount of force with which I should hit the next note for example.

Also, when we went through Mozart's 'easy' sonata K545 (which many people describe as being of grade 5 level) there was so much to take in. He talked about the fact that there are three different voices to start with, not two, saying that the most important notes were the bass notes in the alberti bass and the melody notes in the right hand, and that the upper notes of the alberti bass were just there like 'stuffing' to fill the music out a bit. Similarly in bars 13-17 he mentioned that in the left hand semiquavers, the only important notes are the lower ones and the upper ones shouldn't be heard nearly as much. Phrasing and articulation based on things like harmony were other things he talked about and I was just completely baffled.

Can there really be this much to think about in performing a piece of music?? If so, then surely 'grade 5' pieces are much harder than 'grade 5'??

Does anyone else have any thoughts about this?

Regards,
Wurlz

I think that yes, there really IS that much to think about when performing even an "easy" piece of music. I started playing the piano again three years ago after stopping for 15 years, and doing a music degree (a non performance one) in between. I went back to some "simple" things that I played when I was about Grade 3-5 (eg. Bach 2 part inventions) and I find that there are layers and layers of detail about articulation, voicing, harmony that I simply missed at that time.

The grades are an artificial construct. The exam boards decide what skills they want candidates to be able to display for Grade N, and they decide how they want candidates to play certain pieces to demonstrate those abilities. That doesn't make a piece "Grade N"; it means that the piece can be used to demonstrate proficiency up to the level of "Grade N" as defined by some exam board. Sorry if this sounds like a great deal of waffle, it kind of is. The piece has always been whatever the piece is.

The more I think about it, the more I think that it's no bad thing as a student to just try everything regardless of grade. When I was a child learning piano I had a pile of music from when my aunt learnt piano and there was stuff in there well up to licentiate level - I had a go anyway, usually only managed a few bars, but just kept messing around. It was fun.

It sounds like you need a proper teacher. One who can pitch things to your level. There has to be a balance between pushing for the next level and enjoying some satisfaction from achievement.

Alicia Ocean makes a good point... wurlitzer, how do *you* feel about the way that your teacher teaches? If you are enthused by all of the levels of detail he is pointing out, and you can't wait to go and explore them, then this could be a good thing. However if you're feeling discouraged, then this is not such a good thing. I used to have a really perfectionistic detail oriented teacher for Grades 3-5 - she used to mark out everything and tell me loads of detail, but unfortunately I was 8 years old (12 at my oldest with her) and just couldn't take it all in so she used to shout at me. I think she would have been an excellent teacher for me now that I'm older than 8 I can actually understand what she was after.

I see what you mean Corenfa I am always one to try things beyond my level too - I've even been brave (foolish? ) enough to try parts of the cadenza from Rach three, but consequently I can about 20 seconds of it
http://youtu.be/FNTzTckD_NY (From the bit that starts about 1 minute in!)

I really love the way my teacher teaches - Its not that I dislike all the detail, I love it... its just very difficult to actually execute! Such as in the Mozart, I can distinguish different voices and shape the melody well when I play the hands seperately but its so difficult to put the hands together and remember to do everything, and manage to do everything! My piano teacher does say that the best way to learn a piece is to start playing it at a speed where you can sight read it, then add details in gradually and once you can play it perfectly at that speed, play it faster and once you can play it perfectly at that speed play it faster etc until its up to speed.

I really do love playing the piano and I want to be a professional pianist in the future so I am working very hard - and being worked very hard but I enjoy it. Some of the things he has asked me to practise daily I expected to be absolutely mind numbing such as 20 minutes of scales, 20 minutes of Hanon and 20 minutes of Pischna (concentrating only on one key each day) but actually I really enjoy doing them. Its very challenging to sit down and play every note of a scale or exercise absolutely perfectly and evenly, and being a perfectionist and I thrive on that challenge

I was simply so shocked when I moved teachers when I realised that there is SO much to think about. Despite this realisation, I still managed to mess up in my Cambridge interview for Music a few weeks ago when I told my interviewer (A performance specialist and one of the leading authorities in the world of Chopin who I actually already knew quite well) that "Performance wasn't as intellectually stimulating as other aspects of music" He soon pulled me up on it! I'm still sat in hope that I will get an offer from them, but I doubt it.

I don't think there is anything either brave or foolish about trying things beyond one's current level so long as it's done with the right expectations and without damaging something. If we come to it thinking, this is a great piece and I'd love to see how far I can get, then I don't see how that is bad, as long as we don't go down the path of "I can't play this, therefore I am worthless". I'm *still* trying Chopin OP. 53 - despite the fact that I can't move my hands in the right way to play some of the passages at more than 40% of the correct speed.

I mention physical damage because I did once try to play something that was too difficult for me and exacerbated already existing tendinitis. It wasn't wrong to try and play it but it was wrong to try and force it.

Have fun!

If you can hear it, and can manage to reproduce it however slowly and carefully, then you WILL be able to do it at speed with work. Yes there's a lot to think about but remember it takes many words to describe a beautiful phrase which a good ear (and can I say soul) catches intuitively and instantly. It takes still more words to describe why it was beautiful and how mechanically to produce these sounds ... and again the words may well get in the way of things.



On the interview remember a good interviewer is trying chiefly to drag you away from your safely prepared territory until you say something you didn't expect to, and how you cope with thinking on your feet. I do hope you get the offer you are waiting for!

Yes!! I think to truly excel at something and to really understand anything at all (not just music) is much more difficult than anyone realises. The pursuit of perfection in any art/sport/subject is a matter of infinite scope and depth. Don't be disheartened by the impossible though. Just be excited by the fact that piano will never bore you and that you can spend your entire life exploring this instrument. Like Rachmaninov said "Music is enough for a lifetime but a lifetime is not enough for music".

Goodluck and happy music making!

Edit: ahahaha whenever I re-read an attempt by me to be deep it just sounds like a load of rubbish

Not the best thing to say in a Cambridge interview unless you can back it up!

Better to say how it challenges you and excites, but 20/20 hindsight is something we all wish we had at times.

Personally, and consider I majored in musicology, I find Performance both an intellectual and emotional challenge. Intellectual as I have to try to deconstruct the piece enough to understand the Composer's intent and the Zeitgeist of the world they were living in, plus the instrument they were writing for, and emotional as I am attempting to communicate this to an audience.

However, this is after the discipline of academic performance studies rather than before... The problem with these interviews to places like Cambridge is they want you to think like this ahead of the course so you can hit the ground running!

Even if you don't get in there. I'm certain you will be successful elsewhere.

Grade 5 in 3 years is a good rate of progress.

It is normal to hit a plateau.

It is not the piece that is Grade X, it is the pianist!! The better the pianist the better the piece will be played.

Of course there are pieces that cannot even be attempted until the pianist is Grade X. We say they are "Grade X" pieces but that is just short hand for "The minimum standard of PIANIST to attempt this piece is Grade 5"

As you get better pieces do not get easier overall. It becomes easier to play all the notes. Someone that is not very critical might be easily impressed. But because your understanding of music has improved you see new difficulties. It is no longer enough to play all the right notes at the right times. You have to make music out of it. So the Mozart Sonata that was do-able at Grade 5 (Although it is misleading to call it "Easy") is still challenging years later, when the Liszt Hungarian Rhapsody that you could not even attempt at grade 5 has become "easy"

Playing ANY instrument is as difficult or as easy as one would like to make it! Once they have mastered specific techniques, of course.

It sounds like you are learning lots at the moment. When your teacher believes you are ready to prepare for the next grade you should really benefit.

There is more to learning the piano than taking exams as if you were running a steeplechase and your new teacher appears to be taking this approach because you are able to take this in. Be flattered.

Learning at Uni level is going to be more like this and less like the grade preparation you have experienced before.

Make the most of the experience as you enjoy it. Go back and play the pieces you did a year ago and see how your mindset has changed and how much easier they feel.

Getting past the Grade 5 barrier and getting to those higher levels is harder than the initial stages but not impossible. Apply yourself and relish every challenge. You will get there with self discipline and determination, but it will take hard work.

There is playing the notes (which may or may not be relatively easy) and playing the music, which is always hard because however much you put into a piece of music there is always more to get out. It sounds as if your pianist/teacher is going beyond the mere notes and expecting you to reach a new level artistically. Provided you understand what it is you're being asked to do, and it's not too far beyond you technically (in other words you can actually play the notes) being pushed musically can only be a good thing.

really love the way my teacher teaches - Its not that I dislike all the detail, I love it... its just very difficult to actually execute! ..............

I had an experience with an excellent concert-player 2 years ago and although I admired him, loved all he had to say about the piece, about the arpeggios sounding like ripples of water and so on and so forth (all of which was really true and very interesting), I changed treachers because I felt he was teaching me as he would have taught an aspiring concert-player of very high standard and at that stage of learning (and at my current level) it all seemed more frustrating than productive. I then moved on to another teacher who gives me less detail or, better said, gives it more gradually as we go along but who is very good at gauging her teaching to my standard and to what I actually need.
However useful it may seem, you cannot tell as student all there is to take in in a piece of music. A piece is liable to improvement all the time ... forever, so there is a point at which the teacher should understand that although there would be much more to say and to perfect, the student has reached an acceptably good standard and that it is time to pass on to something different.
As a teacher of languages, if I demanded that my students should read a passage to perfection with the right phonemes, a suitable intonation and flawless fluency, they would probably learn 2 passages per year ... and that is not right.
Did I go off topic?

After yesterday's lesson, I think that playing the piano is definitely much more difficult than I thought

It's because I'm in between old and new techniques, so I have to think about everything, so it's much harder work. This too shall pass.