I recently accompanied another teacher's pupil in his violin exam and was surprised to see that the examiner had come prepared with the music for the exam. (The pupil was playing pieces from the AB book for that grade so they were all there).

I was under the impression that examiners could be from any musical discipline and so not necessarily familiar with the instrument or material they were examining so they could give a completely objective crit of the performance and make for a more even playing-field for all candidates.

Seeing the music there make me think about the pros and cons of the examiner having the music in front of him, namely :-

- any musical expression or individual interpretation in the performance could seem to be non-compliance to the written music.

- any small slips might not be audibly noticable, but would caught out by seeing the music.

- any lack of expression or phrasing (as was the case with the candidate I was accompanying) could be subconsciously inferred by the examiner by seeing it in the printed music.

Obviously these issues would benefit some candidates and would disadvantage others, but I wondered if there was a standard procedure among examiners for this. Clearly they would not be able to bring every possible piece for every grade of exam, but it would be worth thinking about the pros and cons of playing some of the 'alternative' pieces in the piano/flute/clarinet/violin exams, and any others which have the main selection of pieces bundled into one book.

Any thoughts?

I would certainly expect them to have copies of every piece in front of them. It would be impossible for them to know every single piece from memory. In the piano syllabus, for example, there are 153 pieces (including alternatives) spread across 8 grades. In order for the examiners to make an accurate assessment they must have sight of the music.

Well, I've never come across examiners with copies of the music, except for Grade 8 singers where at one time, the Board said it would be useful to provide them with copies on the day. Very occasionally, the examiner comes over to glance at the music. To be honest, I'm not bothered either way. LCM examiners expect a copy of the music, but even then, not all examiners look at them. It's the performance they see and hear which matters in the end.

You underestimate the number of pieces they'd need. 153 for the piano syllabus, 147 for violin, 147 for viola, 147 for cello, 155 for double bass...there are 74 pieces in in the singing syllabus for Grade 1 alone... And there are another 19 instruments on the website. I don't know for sure, but I'd be surprised to learn they carry copies of every possible piece.

I would hope that examiners were sufficiently accomplished musicians to be able to know whether a performance was in a suitable style or not, I would also expect them to know when it was appropriate to use editorial markings as more than just a guidline.
Small slips which are quickly recovered from or which don't interfere with the flow of the music are part and parcel of any live performance.
I hope that examiners are musically aware enough to pick this up even without the printed copy in front of them



The only way to realistically do that would be to expect candidates to bring copies to the exam.
If they could physically bring all the music required to do this it would have to be in a neatly ordered filing cabinet in order for the examiner to have any chance of locating the pieces for each candidate. Could significantly reduce the number of exam in a day.
Or would they travel with a secretary?

I've been stwearding/accompanying for the last (what feels like) 500 years. Most examiners turn up with the selected pieces for examination books and very occasionally have asked to look at a piece.

Bx

That's my experience, too. I'd say a majority of them have the violin AB book, but not alternative pieces, and they don't tend to have Grade 8 pieces (the violin books go up to Grade 7), but probably know what things like Bach partitas and Schumann sonatas should sound like! I've seen them take a look at the music for alternative pieces on a few occassions, and when I took Grade 1 tuba the examiner had a look at one of them (to check a wrong note )

But if it's a piano examiner, why would they need copies of pieces for other instruments? I've always understood that they are given a schedule in advance, telling them which students are taking which grade on which day. So, for example, if they know on one particular day all their candidates are doing say grade 5, then that's all the music they need to take with them. I remember once trying to change the exam date of one of my grade 3 pupils as she would be having school exams on the same day and we both felt that it would be too much to do a piano exam after school. I contacted the office a few weeks before the exam and tried to change it to the following day. "Oh no", they said, "that day is for grades 4 and 5 only", so the exam had to be rescheduled to the following week. She didn't mind. It gave her a week's extra practice.

But for normal exams, all the examiners are generalists (they might be pianists, but that doesn't necessarily mean there'll be any piano candidates). The situation may be different for Standard/Special Visits. For my two entries this term, the Grade 1 singer was examined by a clarinettist, and the Grade 4 piano by an organist. This is pretty common.

Usually at an exam centre there is a mix of instruments and grades. I've never known them to be sorted according to either.

Really? Well, I never knew that. I've always thought that piano candidates were examined by specialist piano examiners, etc. Thanks for the enlightenment.

Brass candidates do not have a set book of pieces so It would be nigh on impossible for examiners to turn up with all the pieces for brass, and I think that it is the same for wind

Yes, clarinet up to grade 7 has a set book of pieces and sax doesn't have a book at all. It would be pretty expensive for an examiner to get all the books.

Was this definitely for the reason being assumed here? I could envisage it being for more mundane reasons, to do with the practicalities of different exam lengths.

I've never been explicitly told that 'this day is for XYZ only', but I've often been to a centre where the whole day seems to be Grade 3 and below.

My music teacher teaches recorder, flute, sax, clari and guitar. His wife teaches singing and piano - and she also accompanies the other exams as required. They are separate applicants but get put next to each other at the exam centre, so we are all on the same day which makes logistics easier from their point of view! The examiner can therefore get a fair bit of variation in instrumentation. (The last exam session was a flautist as examiner)

Standard/special visits are no different from general ones when it comes to examiners.

Yes, that's exactly what I was told. Methinks that as far as possible they arrange the candidates so that the examiner has only to deal with one grade, or a couple of grades, per day. Has anyone every known an examiner to have at least one candidate for each of the 8 grades in a single day? I suppose it could be possible but not very likely.

I've had Grade 8 candidates preceded and followed by Grade 1s and prep tests, not entered by me, so they certainly don't neccesarily separate them out.

Even if they try to, it's going to vary from centre to centre - some smaller ones might only have a handful of higher grades.

I would have thought it happens frequently on school visits. D2's school usually has an examiner come in for three days and they have all grades and most instruments. The pupils are put in an order that suits the accompanists, and they mix up the grades so that he doesn't get all the same in a row, partly because it would be unfair on the accompanist. The examiner would have to bring a huge pile of music for a 3 day visit like that. It is fairly common in my experience for the examiner to ask to see the music after the piece has been played, so they can check omething for their comments. I had an examiner ask me to explain the various guitar fingerings required for the scales on one occasion, so that he could understand what he was asking for! Slightly unnerving as I knew he would be watching my right hand.

Thanks - I'm getting muddled with TG where I think you can request a specialist for Special Visits

For the alternative pieces, you are obliged to bring a copy (i.e. play from music, or bring a copy even if you play from memory) so that the exmainer may have a look at it (see the ABRSM regs page).

I've never seen examiners with copes of the music. At the my Special visit there was everything from grade 1 piano to grade 4 cornet to grade 8 singing - the exmainer came without any books and didn't know in advance which pieces had been selected.

That equally applies to the 'non-alternative' pieces: if you were playing only one piece out of the ABRSM book, and chose to do it from memory, you should still bring the book.

Imagine the exams in other contries (like over here in germany). When I took my exam last year there where mainly piano exams in lower grades, followed by my grade 6 flute a grade 8 piano and a grade 8 singing.
But I think the examiner was in germany already for a while and there have been exams in different cities before.
It would be expensive not only to buy all the music but also to carry all of it on a plane.

Most of the sessions I do see Grades 1 - 8 each time, obviously on various instruments. Personally I loathe the blasted Selected Pieces for Examination books. Ghastly. VERY few teachers use tunes other than those in these books! This doesn't just come down to money - I think its laziness! I'm sure the AB examiners are delighted to have another year of Bah Bah Be Doo Boo Bah (or whatever its called on for G2 piano!) and THRILLED with the prospect of another THREE years of Greensleeves being murdered by G1 fluties...

Sorry, I appear to have fallen out of bed on the grumpy side today....

Grump-Box-Bag x

Where does it say that? The syllabus says that candidates performing from memory should bring a copy for the examiner -
" i) Performing from memory is optional (except for singers, who must perform all items from memory, other than items from oratorios or other large-scale sacred works, or any other works specifically indicated in the lists). The examiner is at liberty to review a copy of the music before or after the performance of any piece; therefore, candidates performing from memory must ensure that a copy of the music is available for the examiner?s use."

Personally, I think examiners are going to be more strict marking pieces they have the music for than those they don't, putting some students at a disadvantage.

My examiner at my visit this term had one of every grade She said it made for a nice varied day. There were a few different instruments too- clarinet, piano, violin and flute. Examiners have said to me whole days of Grade 1's and 2's can be not so nice. Grade 8 was followed by a prep test as well!




My examiner last Christmas actually commented that it was so nice to hear the pupils play alternative pieces and that some of them were great pieces and Bagpuss- the woodwind syllabus goes on for ever.... I am a little fed up of Funeral March on the Gr 1 clarinet syllabus!- we still have 2012 and 2013 to get through before we get a new one.





Phew- I thought I'd missed something here. However, I did read that you have to take copies of non- Trinity published books to TG exams. Didn't realise that until AFTER my pupil's exam - but he didn't get asked for it!

That's exactly the rule being talked about - if you're playing from memory (alternative piece or not), still bring the music.

What an awful, boring piece! Easily the worst of all the grade 2 pieces. It's almost as bad as the one about the cat being bold. Thankfully none of my pupils have chosen it.

I am up to *here* with the grade 2 stuff after only a year. The C choice is particularly dire. Mind, a couple of mine have done well with Cat - I reckon anything makes a welcome change from the dreaded Bah bah.

With boring pieces (Caribbean Sunshine in Violin Grade 2 come to mind), I tend to get them started on these first of all, so it's often the pupil who realised that there's nothing of substance there, well enough in advance to learn another piece!

I'd like to think that examiners are more skilled than this. Otherwise, you could start arguing that examiners should only (or never) examine an instrument they play, or that they're going to be harsher on pieces with which they're very familiar compared to more obscure ones, or whatever.

My littlies have all loved this piece. I don't find any of the pieces they choose boring, how could I teach them properly if I did? I let them choose their own pieces and am as enthusiastic when teaching them as the pupils are learning them.

So far, my most popular grade 2 C piece has definitely been the Men's Dance. Great fun!! Closely followed by Cloudy Day, but personally I find that one a bit boring, although 3 of my pupils really love it and are doing very well with it.

Interestingly my LCM examiner teacher is telling me that this is very likely to be the case with playing something like Mozart at Dip level....

Mine seem to get better marks with alternative pieces and I enjoy the variety too!

My recent Special Visit was very weighted towards the Prep Test and Grade 1 end but I think that the examiners are getting paid very well to listen and mark and probably can cope with it

He's probably right. Especially with Mozart..

Some errors in pieces are glaringly obvious even without the music. I'm sure after a morning of G2 pianists even a trombonist is going to know how Bah Bah De Boo Bah is meant to go including every nuance of phrasing and dynamics, and if they are lucky they might even have heard it once!

The most any pupil of mine has been asked is to show the copy to the examiner. I would have hoped that by the time they are trained an examiner has sufficient aural skills to tell if a piece is a decent performance, differentiate intonation faults. discriminate between piano and forte, and pick out wrong notes even in the most complex of textures and, when things didn't sound quite right remember roughly where it was and check the score after the pieces have been played.

After all in the old London Board Performing Music A level the faults in performance aural test was done without a score. Even in the ABRSM tests changes in rhythm and pitch are tested from Grade 1. At grade 8, one is asked to name as simple chord progression approaching a cadence, and describe a modulation.

No doubt examiners have also done the equivalent of aural dictation tests too. They used to be quite common place.

Is it a rarity to hear something you like at a performance, like it, rush home recreate it and promptly write it down? I thought that was normal professional level musician behaviour. Don't composer's get ideas in their inner ear and scribble it down on manuscript paper anymore? Don't they hear chord sequences in their head and notate them any old how until they can realise them fully?

Why expect an examiner, a musician with a great deal of experience and training to function as if they have just passed their first year undergraduate exams? They are better than that.

Is it just me then ? I really LIKE the ba-ba-do-bah/whatever and find it quite a good teaching piece - nice detached left-hand beat crotchets while the right hand does the funky stuff. I far prefer it to the 'jazz' pieces in grade 1.

That said, I've never tried the Men's Dance so I might look it out - many thanks Porillo.

And I've been won round to the Cloudy day piece - my son played it for G2 about 12 years ago and it didn't do much for me then, but I've had a girl playing it this term who did a lovely job with it and got a good mark - it was very musical and atmospheric.

On the whole I think examiners should be competent enough to know when a piece has been played musically and with stylistic awareness, as well as be able to judge the player's level of technical proficiency, whether or not there is a copy of the music in front of them - after all, I think the ABRSM are paid enough per exam candidate for us to expect this! But there are times when I see an examiner's comment on the mark sheet which makes me think they weren't aware of something in the printed score, and that perhaps a look at the music would have told them the candidate was actually following the composer's wishes.

A good example of this.... a recent Grade 5 candidate played the Spanish composer Mompou's 'Pajaro Triste' from the alternative pieces in list C. She was awarded 25 marks out of 30 with mostly positive comments about it being "immediately engaging" and having "appreciation of the musical textures", with a "musical conclusion". But one comment annoyed me, i.e. "in spite of some tentative pulse". Well anyone who's looked at this piece or quite a lot of other piano pieces by Mompou, will know that he often inserted tenuto marks not just over/under notes, but also between notes within the phrase, etc. To my mind this shows he surely wanted a particular rhythmic effect, for it to be played almost in a faltering manner, and this is how I'd aimed to teach my pupil to play this piece. So I wonder if following the composer's wishes here has actually gone against my pupil in this instance, and whether this would have happened if the examiner had seen the music?

To bend time it still must have a sense of pulse. The idea that a piece can have lots of rubato loads of tenuto should not detract from the fact the piece still needs to have the perpetual motion of a heart-beat. The examiners comment makes perfect sense. How does the examiner know whether this was a deliberate rubato or nerves is there is no continual thread?

Personally I get pupils to learn pieces in strict metronomical time before any rubato, be it tenuto, rits and ralls, or accells, piu mossi or stretti are added. If it has no line, no heart beat no thread, then there is nothing to mold.

Tricky. It's hard to say anything conclusive without having heard the performance in question, but at Grade 5 it's probably worth erring on the side of caution, to prevent 'almost faltering' becoming 'hesitant' under pressure. Listening to the piece in question, it sounds damn difficult to pull off!

I'm reminded of the Korngold Gartenscene, Grade 7 violin, where there's the opportunity for quite dramatic tenutos in the final section. I had my pupils really milk these for all they're worth, using the metaphor of ballet dancers seeming to suspend themselves mid-leap for what seems like an impossible length of time. This involved more than simply changing speed, with phrasing being integral to pulling it off effectively.

Actually I do agree with both the above replies. I had started teaching this piece with a regular pulse before trying to convey the effect of the tenutos, which do in themselves occur quite regularly throughout, as well as having additional accels and rits marked in. But being thematically quite repetitive, I'd have said the second half could perhaps benefit from a little more being made of the suggested flexibility in rhythmic shaping. I'm not saying it should lose sense of phrasing or overall direction - quite the reverse - but at the same time it shouldn't sound metronomic or else it sounds dull (the overall character is slow and reflective, in accordance with the title 'Sad Bird' - as opposed to 'Sick Parrot', which one of my past pupils once suggested!).

But yes I think in this particular piece it is a difficult rhythmic effect for a pupil to pull off successfully. It really requires the performer to have a natural feel for how much to hold back or push ahead, and exam nerves may have had some bearing on my pupil's performance on the day.

My point in relation to the OP was whether the examiner was aware of what the composer had marked in the score, as tenutos between notes are not exactly standard.

I suppose you can turn this question on its head, and ask whether or not the performance conveyed the intended effect indicated by this notation successfully, because a performance (exam or not) shouldn't presuppose any knowledge of the piece by the audience.

Reading what both Owain and FingerTwisted have written they both make sense. Even once I've taught a pupil a piece at a rigid speed I would not advocate performing a piece intended to be played with a flexible tempo rigidly, you are quite right, this will sound as dull as ditchwater!

However the problem is something that sounds hesitant rather than convincing. Every time change needs to sound purposeful.

I'm certain we're all familiar with the pupil who picnics at the bar line and has a full banquet at the end of every line, or the pupil who rushes through the easy bits only to come to a crashing halt when the music gets hard.

I like this. It should certainly be the case, but then I'm reminded of numerous occasions at concerts where the audience has been left bewildered by what they've just heard, and obversely a couple of occasions at music festivals, where an audience has shown thorough appreciation of a musical performance while the adjudicator has evidently not heard it in the same light.

I begin to wonder though, if taken a step further, how much an exam candidate could 'get away with' when it comes to actual content of a prescribed piece where the examiner does not have access to the score, so long as he or she gives a technically proficient and musical performance? Would the examiner necessarily know if things were being changed (not just dynamics etc, but perhaps thematically) in this respect, if they were not that familiar with the piece in question?

I think examiners are much wiser than we sometimes give them credit, and they certainly have quite a broad knowledge of repertoire.

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I begin to wonder though, if taken a step further, how much an exam candidate could 'get away with' when it comes to actual content of a prescribed piece where the examiner does not have access to the score, so long as he or she gives a technically proficient and musical performance? Would the examiner necessarily know if things were being changed (not just dynamics etc, but perhaps thematically) in this respect, if they were not that familiar with the piece in question?
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I had a viola candidate get 30 for one of his pieces - a very unusual one from the C list. This amused me because he was wildly inventive with the rhythm in the exam room and missed out about 10 bars in the middle! Clearly he conveyed musical confidence to the examiner though

I agree, Jod. Music is their business, and examining a part of what they do in that business. They are also performers, teachers, accompanists, choir masters, etc. Their repertoire knowledge is huge, as is their general music knowledge - the interpretation or technical aspects of a piece will be pretty obvious to any experienced musician, regardless of how well they know a specific piece or have it in front of them. I'm sure they know the repertoire on the syllabus for most instruments like the back of their hands, it certainly only takes me a week or so for both piano and upper strings, it's not as though they change every year. They'll get to know the other instruments just as quickly as they are being exposed to them. Generally these examiners are pretty bright sparks

That's wonderful! Unless the 30 meant "A true violist..."

I've been wondering about the klezmer piece in the new violin Grade 4 book - I can't help but be 'creative' with it, far more than the little bits of baroque ornamentation they sometimes encourage in footnotes to List A pieces, and wonder how far this could be taken in an exam.

i] (Quote) I had a viola candidate get 30 for one of his pieces - a very unusual one from the C list. This amused me because he was wildly inventive with the rhythm in the exam room and missed out about 10 bars in the middle! Clearly he conveyed musical confidence to the examiner though [/i]

This is exactly the point I was making with this thread.

Performing pieces (for exam or recital or just in an empty room with an imaginary audience) should be about more than just hitting the right notes at the right time. As early as possible I try to get my pupils thinking about style and expression (The "Clarinet Basics" tutor book is an excellent tool for this), however exams can be about second-guessing what the examiner will like. Too much "expression" (eg. rubato) can seem like either non-compliance or accidental.
Also, if playing an unusual piece with erratic changing of time signature (as in some James Rae saxophone studies), I tell my pupils to emphasize the first beat of every bar (or sub-division) and to make it sound as "deliberate" as possible or there may be a chance that, without the music, the examiner might think the rhythm is incorrect.