I'm just interested to know what everyone thinks about this whole topic of 'a better violin can be better for a player'. My Violin is a simple Antoni Debut, purchased from DJMusic - Having little experience of violins, I decided to purchase it because from the reviews, I thought that it was probably okay for its price (?50 + postage) - that was when I decided to give it a try... But I wish I hadn't rushed into a decision now. Its a bit cheap sounding and although it looks good, I'm not sure about the sound - especially after I saw a demonstration of it on youtube. My music teacher, (NOT specialised in violin area) says that with some decent (maybe dominates?) strings I could MAYBE go to grade 3/4 at a stretch - but I was kinda hoping that it'd take me to around grade 4/5 before I upgraded to a better violin so that I could really know where my violin preference lies. Also, with a new clarinet (and mouthpiece!) to purchase quite recently, I really can't buy two instrument at the same time! (It'll feel really cheeky to ask parents for them! )

However, on violinist.com (I think) it said that the tone from the violin comes from this points, in order of importance:
Player (Of course! Even a 'Orange box' will sound good in the hands of GIDOM KREMER!)
Set-up
Bow
(Last 10%, violin)

So what does everyone think? Surely a good violin aids the player, but is it crucial for a good player to have a good instrument to reach grade 8? I think not, but what is your opinion?

No.

W

In my opinion:
Player
violin
bow.

I don't really buy into the notion of "set-up" being independent of the violin. It certainly won't transform a bad violin into a good one.

I don't think you need a fancy violin to get to grade 8.

I agree, but an 'orange box' is definitely not enough. Also, Can anyone tell me where the Antoni is able to take me? Providing that I am an 'average' player - when would you suggest that I should upgrade?

Thanks in advance

A set of dominants will certainly help an Antoni, and perhaps an up-grade of bow at some stage? It doesn't have to be very expensive to make a difference.
I would maybe encourage a pupil to up-grade their instrument for gd5, where you will need the higher positions, good tone control and vibrato.
A good violin set up may make the violin a little easier to play but will cost you pretty much what you paid for it in the first place and will make no impact on it's re-sale value (about half of what you bought it for) if you want to sell or part exchange it in the future.
And yes, Kremer may be able to make a better sound on it, but he has the years of technical training behind him and can quite literally adapt better than you can at the moment so you would be unfair on yourself if you were to compare yourself to what he could play on your violin. At a student stage it IS part player, part instrument that makes the difference

A few years ago I took on a girl and we worked hard on changing her technique, then learning new ones. She worked VERY hard and was very musical but she just sounded awful. Always.?
I used to borrow her violin to show her stuff but didn't have a problem with it as such - I have been playing for many years and can pick most violins up and make them sound ok without much effort. But that was the key to it. It didn't occur to me how much it was the violin. Her parents had paid quite a lot for it (well and truly ripped off). I used to watch her play, carefully analyse everything she did to try and figure out what on earth I was missing. She was playing gd8 pieces, it all looked right..
I finally couldn't stand it any longer and asked her parents to get her a new violin. They did, and she literally came back the next lesson looking AND sounding like a gd8 distinction.
She's now at Conservatoire.

What sort of difference was there moneywise between the two violins?

Hmm... what sort of bows are good? I have heard their are things like Synthetic bows, 'real horse-hair' bows and... WOODEN bows!?! Does 'wooden' describe the 'body' (pardon my totally un-technical words ) of the bow, or the actual 'hair' part? Can someone please advice me on this...?


So basically, are you saying that a new violin may help some people, but may not help others? My last music teacher (That was before I moved from the north to London) was able to do much more on my Antoni - vibrato, spiccato and stacato - all with a decent sound, but then she did play the violin for about 25 years! Maybe I should try to get the best standard I can on this violin... (albeit with a new bow, better rosin and dominante strings,) and upgrade around Grade 4?



May I ask did they buy it in a shop or over the internet? And what model did she have? What model did she buy for an upgrade?

Ok - this girl/violin is an extreme case, remember, which is why I used it to highlight the fact that the player should not always blame themselves, especially when they hear a more experienced player on the violin.
ViolinQueen, yes, personally I would upgrade at or after gd4, but put on some decent strings straight away and maybe a bow at some point. It won't turn you into Vengerov overnight, but it makes the journey a little more pleasant

The violin in question - I really can't remember the make now, but it was one of the expensive Chinese new 'handmade/finished' ones and a carbon fibre bow, cost her ?800, must have been about 8 or 9 years ago. The one she bought to replace it was ?1,000 old French with modern German bow (not expensive) about 4 years ago.
The dealer she bought the Chinese one from had a good reputation apparently (she got it before she came to me) and I *think* used to re-brand the violins or add her company name to them..can't quite remember accurately, sorry.

*MUM! I NEED NEW VIOLIN STRINGS!*

I was talking to my teacher about this recently. I got a DVD of Perlman playing (for Christmas). His left hand seemed to do nothing - but his right hand was amazing and obviously his bow was superb. Teacher said the bulk of violin playing is in the right hand - and the bow - but of course a nice violin helps.

I posted a year or so back about whether to buy a really nice violin as a learner. Lots of people said no. I now disagree. If you are always fighting the instrument the uphill battle that is learning the violin is so much harder. You don't need a great violin to get to grade eight but you'll have to work harder. Conversely if you have a good instrument you need a teacher who won't let you be lazy and let the violin play itself - you have to push for the best sound whatever level of instrument you have.

As for Dominants they're bog standard strings they last for ages but they might not suit your violin. I like Aricores because they have a mellower sound that I prefer over Dominants, which are very strident on my violin, which is a Guinari model (though sadly not an original and has a big voice without Dominants).

^Unfortunately, that's what happens when your daughter gets attached to music...

Apparently, on the internet it says that dominant strings are 'bright' sounding. I have preferences for a deeper, mellower sound, are there any cheap strings (similar price as dominants) that are like this?

-Thanks

I prefer Pirastro Aricores - I find them much mellower than Dominants, but they are a little more expensive, maybe up to a tenner more. Gorgeous sound on my violin though. I have Zyex on at the moment (economy drive when I got them they were a good deal). They're a bit too bright for my violin - she shouts as it is!

Here's a link to some strings info http://www.violinist.com/wiki/violin-strings/

The player is vastly more important than the violin. The time when you need to change violins is when the violin you have is causing you constant difficulties. As a retailer I spend far more time talking adult learners down in price than up!

Liz

It's already causing me difficulties, but I suspect that its down to my technique

PS: The difficulty for me is that (in first position) when I am switching from D on the A string (third finger) to G on the D string - especially if they're in a slur
PPS: Vibrato is not compulsory till grade 5... right? Coz I've not been practicing it

In that situation I might place my finger on the "invisible" string that lies between the D and G - so kind of a double stop - to get a smoother sound over the slur.

Out of interest - how long have you been playing violin?

1. is technique, and the answer to 2 is, right.

liz

I started around Easter, practised for 3 month... and then dedicated all of my time to the Grade 4 exam - so I took a break of maybe 2/3 month?

I'd say I played it for half a year, but I played for 3 serious months.
(So proud of myself since I'm edging into the Grade 2 syllabus! )

Sorry to intrude, but this thread relates to something that I'm thinking about at the moment.

I have been pondering taking up violin again. The last time I played purposefully was in 2007 when I did my grade 6 exam. Not coming from a background where I could provide a 'decent' instrument for myself, I played the exam on a Sparkly Green Stentor Student 2 and much to my surprise came out with a distinction. This is the violin I have at the moment and after abandoning it for so long it has become unplayable which leaves me in need of a violin. My intention would be to sit my grade 8 exam at some point, so I need a violin which would get me through that venture. However, I am a student and a student budget wouldn't accomodate some of the suggestions that I have received. It may sound shocking, but I literally couldn't go over ?200, and that is for violin, bow and case. I've looked at some of the higher level Stentor models but I am unsure as to what is worth the splurge.

I don't intend on becoming the next Perlman! Possibly use it in a teaching role within a school environment (I am training to be a Primary School teacher), but hardly destined for Carnegie!

Suggestions would be great!

Antonpiano - unplayable in what sense? Does it maybe just need a good set of strings or a set up and some playing in again. If you can get it back to how you remember it, perhaps just spend some money on a better bow.
I'm sure your future primary school students would love to see their teacher with a bright green violin!

That would probably cost more than the violin is worth.

Depends where you go. There are some horrendous over-chargers out there. A basic set up should only cost the strings and a bit, and if this violin (and player!) was once good enough to get a distinction at gd6 it's worth looking into how to keep it going. I can't see you'd get much better in a new one for ?200.

I'd thought the same! Hahaha!

It's the pegs that are the main issue - they are quite slack so the strings aren't staying at correct pitch. Plus there's a crack in the back of the violin. The bow is in a laughable state, but I don't think I used that bow for the exam..

I replaced the strings a couple of years ago but with the pegs as they are it was a pointless venture.

In that case I think a new one might be in order. A Stentor Conservatoire II might be a good idea....see if you can get a second hand one on ebay. One of my students has one and it sounds quite alright.

Yup! Sounds like a new one is the only way!
The cheapest person I know would repair the crack for ?100 but then there's new pegs, bow, strings..not really viable! Be careful you ask lots of questions from the vendor before you buy on e-bay. A pupil of mine recently was assured by the seller that the violin was all set up and ready to just 'pick up and play'. She trusted them because it was an actual shop, but when the violin came the bridge didn't fit and it didn't even have a soundpost in it. The vendor is denying everything.

Distance selling regulations. This is a shop and they are bound by those regulations. The buyer has the right in law to return the violin for any reason at all within 7 working days (assuming it was a fixed price sale and not an auction). Unsuitability for the purpose does not have to be proven. In fatc, contrary to popular belief, you are actually safer in law buying at a distance, assuming you are buying from a business and not a private individual.

Liz

Thanks Liz. The trouble is they bought it before Christmas as a present for their daughter and therefore none of this was discovered until a couple of weeks later. It's a slightly more complicated story since too involving another rip off shop along the way but I won't put it up on the thread for obvious reasons

Not only that but under EU distance selling rules they are also liable for postage costs both ways. As an instrument maker I was caught out with this just recently. It ended up costing me ?80 with shipping/insurance costs. Now I ask for a ?1 deposit as proof of a direct commission, a way of getting around the rules that were probably not intended for craft workers.
Given the nature of the problems with that Violin I'd be returning it, it's irrelevant if it was before Christmas. It's not fit for purpose.

Thanks Sunrise..
Purchased a Stentor Conservatoire today! So very excited to get my teeth into this Grade 8 syllabus
Thanks for all your help guys!

There are a few inaccuracies in your post. Not wanting to go off topic but if you are selling on online you might want to familiarise yourself with those regulations. Without going into detail:

1. the regulations do not apply to custom made items and you don't need to take a deposit to prove it
2. you can, if your Terms and conditions specify, require the buyer to pay return postage (although this is going to change in a few years time) so it is worth incorporating this into your T&C
3. the cancellation rights only apply within 7 working days of receipt and cancellation must be in writing
4. make sure your T&C state that English law applies (if you are in England)

If an item is damaged, the buyer has additional rights under the Sale of Goods Act as you quite rightly say.

Seems I have a chance of passing grade 5 on an Antonio with some decent strings, afterall
... Is this bow worth looking at? The ebay seller does seem to have quite a lot of decent reviews... Ebay Violin Bow