Ok, those of you who know me will know me enough to know that I am a little 'screwed up'

but I have had this thought since last night that I think I want AND 'need' to start learning the violin all over again

and what I mean by that is GO BACK TO THE BEGINNING! to the 'roots'

Not to go back to grade 4 or 5, but go back RIGHT TO THE START

Not so much with my violin hold/bow-hold and posture as I have done A LOT OF WORK on that in the last 12 months and I can honestly say I have 're-learnt' the violin from scratch in those areas, but I want to go back to the beginning with the 'repertoire' and the technique (ie the scales/theory etc side of things).

Are you all still there or have you fallen to the floor and trying to get your breath back?

there is ONE problem with the above: 'my teacher', I think teacher will tell me I have gone 'bonkers' (this word will probably be 'blanked out' LOL so should have said 'crazy' ) and will blankly refuse, quickly 'dismiss' my conversation and get on with the lesson by asking me to play the Bach sonata n.2

Ok, one would say 'why go back to pre grade one?' no need to go back that much surely? I feel I ought to start right from the start and leave no stone unturned, I feel that I have too many faults that I don't 'deserve' to play or try to play pieces at grade 8.

Ok, ok ok, one might say that if my teacher lets me it's because such an experienced person decided I 'can' and I have the basis to be able, so I should trust my teacher right? but I can't help to think I am making too many mistakes, my fingers are not reliable enough, if I go back to grade one and build a very strong solid reliable intonation then, only then, move up to the next level, then one day I will reach the pieces I play now with much better reliability no? I don't know, maybe it's because I can't compare to others, maybe it's because my teacher can compare to hundreds of other students he has had over the 60 years of teaching he has done and over his career as leader of famous orchestras he knows I can?

All I know is that 'I' think I am 'not worthy' or ready to be where I am and I need to go (and am ready to go) A LONG LONG WAY back

Well, it's not unheard of for first year music college students (with spectacular g8 distinctions, diplomas etc) to have to go back to bowing open strings to correct faults in their basic technique.
If you're really serious about being a top level player, maybe you have to do something similar?
Speaking as a listener, I would much, much rather hear a perfectly executed g4 piece than someone hacking their way through a Bach solo sonata. I think your teacher would probably have a great deal of respect for you if you explained to them what your goals were.

I can see where you are coming from but I don't think it would be a very efficient use of your time. Better to ask your teacher to set aside time to concentrate on specific areas causing you concern. For instance, there are good exercises by Simon Fischer on intonation. I also find that Sevcik op.8 on position changing is really good. I was taught to play the exercises slowly and accurately, using slides to learn the shift, and playing each one in a variety of keys so that the fingers have to learn different patterns. Boring but effective.

I know that if I went right back to the very beginning I would rush through too fast and not concentrate properly on what I should be doing. I prefer a combination of easier pieces (say grade 5-6) where I can pay attention to intonation and tone production without worrying about notes, with harder pieces to stretch me.

Do let us know what your teacher says.

'exactly' Discopants..
it's because wanting to 'do it really well' means so much to me that I have come to this decision in my head.
I will never be a professional player but I want to 'play well' never-the-less and achieve high standards one day.
I think I ought to go 'right back'
you see...I had 'terrible' tuition between picking up the violin from the very first day and grade 4 and a half... I would hardly call it 'tuition' looking back...



Hi mcm, I am already doing (when I do practice 'lately' erm, I have really 'slacked' with practice in last few months....due to working too much overtime) sevcik 8, the things you suggest are not new to me and I have already done the 'easier pieces' 'trick'.

I would like to totally 'drop' everything and start again from the beginning. Even forget I know how to shift, pretend I am pre-grade one! (quite a drop if you think I play regularly up to 6th-8th position at the moment).

Also I don't think my teacher will make me go right back to the beginning as I suggest, I will tell him when I see him friday but I think he will 'dismiss' me as he has already done before (though I have to say when I have mentioned it before it was in a hurry when I was having a 'little tantrum' during a lesson hehehehe )

I almost had a heart attack when I saw the title of your new thread, jojo! I opened it with great trepidation, fearing that you were chucking the violin and starting from scratch with something totally new... Phew!! Evidently you aren't THAT bonkers.

Actually I think there is some profound sense in all of this. At the beginning of last year I had had bit of a break because of bronchitis and "started again" with a method book my teacher hadn't used before... it was actually the second of two but takes you back to basics again with scale-arpeggio exercises and short related technical studies. It was really helpful but I felt that in some respects I had "gone backwards". My teacher said "not a it of it" and actually recommended picking up the same studies again in a couple of years. He thoroughly recommends going back to basics from time to time. It can also be quite a confidence booster because you will notice all the things that are so much easier the second time round and refine other aspects that were beyond you before...

But mcm is probably right that it's probably worth your time going right back to plough through grade one again. And perhaps you could do it in parallel with working on a piece that is a challenge for your current level so that you aren't entirely back in your "comfort zone"...

Whatever you decide, all the best in your 2012 musical adventures...

aaaawwwww thanks Katica!

am not giving up the violin no....

the more I think about this the more I 'want' to go back to grade 1....teacher will not be happy with me on friday

Don't even think you should be thinking in terms of grades.

I changed my entire technique after my gd5 - EVERYTHING!
And it was the best thing I ever did.
My teacher was very clever in being able to strip me of what I was doing and replacing it with proper technique while still playing decent pieces carefully chosen to learn how to use each new part of my technique, they weren't gd1 pieces.
I have done the same for many pupils along the way, and the success depends on how much they want to do it..you obviously do.

no, but let's put it this way:
I think I 'ought' to go back to play just in 1st position until my intonation is EXTREMELY GOOD, I am not saying perfect as nobody's is, and I can play pieces in 1st position 'extremely' well ie:

-musically
-with good dynamics
-extremely good bow control with all types of bow technique

only and only then to incorporate the next position and then when the above is achieved move again to another position (or two whatever)

ie: go back to 1st and only step by step move ONLY when the very high standard is achieved by BOTH left and right hand.

Right now I am PANTS (not 'disco pants' ) in all positions, especially 1st!!! and my bow skills are HORRIBLE


I want to do it so much I am ready to play 'twinke twinkle little star'

and I don't care how long I have to play it for, I just want to play well wwwwhhaaaaaaaaaa :'(

PS to Discopants: when I told teacher once before 'maybe we should go back to grade 1' he said 'don't be silly we are not doing grades'

Reading this - I think we are in almost exact opposite positions, Jojo. I've been lucky to have an amazing teacher from the start who takes no prisoners when it comes to drawing out the best out of my playing. We decided early in 2011(during our 2011 goal setting chat) that we'd move away from grades and exams until such time as I might need or want to do them, so we've been free to play whatever pieces and techniques he or I decide on.

Despite the "not doing exams" thing a part of me still measures my progress by what's in which syllabus. Sometimes that makes me feel like I'm going soooooo slowly compared to others on the forum who have streaked through the grades (yes - I know - it's not a race), so much so that I heard my self muttering that I was going to "end up the best sounding grade three player in the world" because teacher won't let me rush forward and is such a stickler for spot on intonation I swear he has a tuner in his head! Two weeks ago he said I had the best left hand of all his pupils - last week he was correcting it as my wrist was slightly off. . . . Even with simple pieces there always seems to be something to improve - Sometimes I think I will never reach the levels you've achieved in the years you've been playing.

Despite all this I mostly manage to swallow my impatience and go with his advice, because I have a friend who spent an awful lot of money trying to correct a vibrato that had got her through RWCM but wasn't taking her any further. I don't want to have to go back in years to come and fix what has become ingrained.

So for what it is worth I would go with your instinct to go back over the basics. Maybe not as severely as you're suggesting, maybe, grade three or four - pieces you should be able to get your fingers around easily, without vibrato (and not shifting at first). If you have doubts now is the time to find out if they're real or in your imagination and having that conversation with your teacher on Friday sounds a good plan.

A part of me feels this might be a csse of new year blues or something to do with your lack of practice time recently, but whatever the cause I think you're right to speak to your teacher about your concerns. At worse he agrees and you start again from scratch - at best he says X is fine, but yeah Y needs some time and effort. Either way you KNOW what you need to so.

Good luck!

Why can't you play the easy stuff as well as the hard stuff? I try to include all levels of difficulty so I focus on musical quality for the easier pieces and just getting close to the right note for the tough stuff.

The harder pieces are not supposed to be played fabulously, they are there to stretch you. Eventually they become the easier pieces...

IMHO of course..

Hi BadStrad, thank you
though I have taken the Grade 1 and 5 exams and was planning on taking the Advanced Certificate in November (grade 8 and I now have doubts as of these latest thoughts in my head, maybe 'pre-grade 8 nerves'? but also yes, am very busy at work and practice is getting less and less), I also play a lot of non syllabus staff with my teacher, I just don't go through the 'grades mill' but I often if not always talk of grades so that 'everyone' knows what level I am talking about, especially here on the forums where some people may not straight away know how beginner or advanced a piece may be if I just mention the music I play rather than what 'grade it is'....

not sure it is a 'new year's blues' as I have questioned whether I am 'worthy' to be where I am for now almost a year to be honest, I have only just started thinking of 'I should be going back to roots' in the last maybe 'three months' and it really 'hit home' in the last 2 days! (I first came out with it in my lesson in September I think then instead took the approach of: ok I'll prepare for an exam instead that will make me feel better! but it's not working).


Cestrian, very true what you are saying, but my intonation and bow skills still leave a lot to desire even with easier pieces I feel.....

Maybe it is because my teacher is EXTREMELY STRICT but he is 'still' telling me I am 'off' on my intonation virtually at every other note I play this happens a lot more in first position than any other position.... though all positions he goes 'no no fix it fix it, it's sharp it's flat' and on and on and on and then 'it's a major third, it's a minor third, it's a fourth/a fifth, it's next to this and that, check it check it'!!! I dream of him sometimes

I really can't get it right :'( I think I have 'too much' on my plate contending with all the notes over 8 positions that is why I feel I ought to leave it all 'out of the window' and go back to 1st position only until I 'master it' and only then start slowly adding more on top of it whilst slowly working on the bow skills too.

I feel I have to do too much: jack of all trades but master of none you see?

Good luck with Friday Jojo! I hope you can work something out.

I don't really feel qualified to offer any other comment but I find it comforting to go back to easier pieces sometimes just as a reminder of how far I have come. But I'm fairly laid back about my playing and consider myself just gently moseying along without the pressure of great ambition so I'm not sure what would help for you about going back to the beginning.

Hope you find a solution

Jojo you're making unusually fast/good progress, i really think youre on the right path with what youre doing Youre a natural at violin and the huge progress youve made in a short space of time shows that whatever youre doing, is working! If I were you i'd pick a specific thing and go 'back to basics' with it but dont cut out everything else youre doing. I'm learning the Bruch concerto and Bach sonata no.1 at the same time as doing basic baby 'nee nah' vibrato exercises every day because my vibrato is so bad i think i need to take it back to basics - but that doesnt mean i need to start over i can carry on where i am. then when that is sorted, maybe i'll take something else and take that to basics and build it back up again etc. If youre feeling that things need to be overhauled (i genuinelly dont think they do with you but its up to you ) then i'd do one thing at a time rather than cut everything back to basics. You're an advanced player - you'd be bored silly!!

I agree with what others have said about rebuilding your technique without going back to square one - go back to basics and back to open strings by all means (and it sounds like you do these already) but don't abandon all the great music you're playing unless the frustration is making you hate it.

Here are some quotes from some articles by Simon Fischer I've just been reading that seem relevant:


source: http://www.simonfischeruk.com/Musicians...d%20chapter.pdf

So it's absolutely true that the basics are extremely important at all times, but since you are already able to play so much wonderful music, I think it would be more motivating to stick with that wonderful music. It's still possible to isolate techniques, e.g. by practising a passage with difficult string crossings on open strings and by practising the left hand without the bow - sorry if all that seems very obvious!



The need to use many different techniques simultaneously, as Fischer describes in the first quotation, is what makes difficult pieces time-consuming to learn. The fact it's so time-consuming is hugely frustrating if you're an amateur without much time. The music you (and I) are trying to learn is played by international professional soloists in concerts, but we aren't able to have a professional's practice schedule - or at least, the schedule the professionals followed for a decade or several decades of their lives - so it's bound to seem impossible at times, if not most of the time - see the bold part in the quotation below, which gives a potential solution:



source for quotations 2 and 3: http://www.simonfischeruk.com/Thoughts%20on%20practice.pdf

I think a mixed approach with pieces at a variety of levels, as Cestrian describes, would be the best way forward. It's true that there's plenty of music that has been labelled with low grades that's beautiful and worth playing (just yesterday I discovered the Meditation by Bridge and the Romance from the concertino by Bacewicz, both of which somebody has decided to call 'grade 4', and I'm tempted to get the music for both of them and learn them), but don't play any 'easy' stuff that really isn't worth it, or bore yourself, just for the sake of going back to basics - you can do that without losing the music!

Sorry if that ramble didn't bring up anything you hadn't already thought of, and good luck!

Dear Jojo,

I am sorry to read about your doubts.
I can't add something to Rosies post, only one question: "Do you think it's possible to forget everything past grade one standard you've already learned?"

I usually split my practice time one half working on basics and the other half working on pieces. Until now it seems to make perfectly sense.

All the best for friday to you.

Thank you so much Rosie for taking the time to write such wonderful post, it was very inspiring

I just wanted to say: 'I can't play 'any' wonderful music actually....that is why I have come up with this latest thought of going back to basics. It's true! there isn't ONE piece of music I can play decently enough, NOT ONE! And I am not talking about playing it at really high standard at all! you want the proof? I will upload myself on youtube and you can listen, but then you will come back and tell me I sound ok just to make me happy and I appreciate that, who in their right mind would tell me I sound 'not ok' and slash my dreams and risk to make me put the violin down forever? Not any of you I know
But I have ears and I know what I should sound like and when I record myself and watch my videos I KNOW if I am out of tune, I KNOW if I have played a passage well or not and believe me, I DON'T play anything well enough end of story, not even grade 5 pieces so why should I be doing grade 7 and 8 pieces?
I think I have to go back at least to grade 2 I am NOT JOKING HERE!



Hi Schraeubchen No, one cannot 'forget' what one has learnt, but I think I never learnt properly to begin with

I think you should continue to do what your teacher asks you and work on the more difficult music but dedicate some time each day to relearning all your repertoire (starting from your beginner book). Set a fixed length of time to do this - say 15 minutes or half an hour. Then start at the beginning again. Apply the techniques your teacher is teaching you to the beginner pieces. When you are happy with a piece, then move on to the next one and so on up. I think you will be surprised at how well you can play pre-grade 1 pieces!

Jojo - right now I can name two pieces that I've heard you play that you can play "decently enough", although I would say that you are playing them more than decently enough - how about GREAT. The theme from Schindler's List and Meditation by Thais. I'm not saying this to make you feel good although if it does it's a bonus. I am saying this because.....IT IS THE TRUTH!

There's nothing wrong with wanting to go back a step and consolidate but there comes a point that the more we want perfection, the more it will elude us and then we get trapped in a vicious cycle. My teacher tells me that how a piece sounds to my ears will sound completely different to someone else because we are too hard on ourselves and our perception is sometimes different. If I remember rightly, you passed your G5 pieces with very high merits/distinction marks so an examiner obviously thinks that your playing is above standard.

Before you see your teacher, could you make a list of all your strengths in your violin playing (and you have an abundance of them) and a list of the areas that you feel need stripping back and consolidating? I personally don't feel you need to go right back to the start, but perhaps use this as an opportunity for reflection and appraisal.

Then - keep going forwards and don't look back

Hi Jojo. Ok, we know you have the basics (a decent violin, a good teacher, and the aptitude and dedication to have reached an advanced level of playing). What you wrote above indicates that you also have:
1. A good ear.
2. The judgement skills to know when you have not executed a passage correctly.
3. The judgement skills to know when you have not played a passage as well as you could have done (subtly different from above).
4. The patience, drive and commitment to go as far back as necessary to work on whatever techniques need improving.

What do you need in order to improve further? Well, all of the above. You already have all the right ingredients. Just add time.

Anyone who is interested in improving their skills (at anything, not just music) is probably guilty of beating themselves up. It is normal and commonplace, both in amateurs and professionals. However, Jojo, I do think you give yourself a harder time than most. Wanting to improve is one thing, but I would hate for you to make yourself ill over it. Please be as kind to yourself as you would be to anyone else!

With regard to your 'back to basics' proposal, I'd say go for it. I hope you start to see results soon.

Sometimes the problem with 'seeming' to progress very fast in the first few years is that you suddenly turn round and realise that none of these techniques are as sound as you thought. Maybe rather than 'starting again' as such, it would be a good time to consolidate?

Exactly When i got to music college i found myself suddenly in comparison to 10 people who have been playing 3 times longer than me... i realised that whilst i'm the same 'level' as them, maybe some things aren't quite as secure or developed so i've devoted a lot of time to sorting out individual things bringing them up.

My teacher said i'm in a good position in that any 'bad' or 'wrong' habits are easy to re-learn/correct because i havent had them engrained in my brain for the last 12+ years like everyone else! You're in the same position There are many negatives to 'fast progress' but some positives too

Yes, now you know how to play the techniques, take the time to master them

You may not know me Jojo, as I hardly ever post anything (but read the forum a lot), but have you tried reading the Inner Game of Music by Barry Green? It might just help. I have found it very useful and from reading your posts I am not dissimilar to you, in the sense of being an expert in telling myself how terrible I am! I even re-read it from time to time, as a reminder to not beat myself up all the time.
One of the other problems I find is that whilst you are playing twinkle twinkle, in the early days, you are not comparing yourself to anyone else. You are just glad to be making a sound. Once you get a bit further on most of the pieces you are playing have been recorded by the good and the great, or you hear them performed live, and that is the sound you are aiming for. Sadly, even if one were to start all over again a hundred times, you and I are never going to achieve that sound in this lifetime. I find it a hard thing to get to grips with, but it is the truth we have to live with. Either live with it or give up altogether and miss out on all the fun of making music. So on balance I think living with the frustration is the better option by far.

In the meantime, like most of the others, I would not advocate starting all over again, but rather spending a good part of your daily practice time on bowing open strings, simple bowing and finger exercises, slow scales in various bowing patterns, and in 3rds and 6ths etc for intonation.

Finally, do you play in an orchestra or with others in a chamber group? Such a good opportunity to have fun making music and not be completely focused every second on your own sound. Just being part of a symphony gives such a sense of fulfillment! With any luck the brass behind you will drown out any dodgy intonation.

Hope some of this might help.

All good thoughts from Immy - Jojo, I have the book Immy recommends if you want it?
It's all to easy to get into the 'oh, I sound rubbish' trap and hard to get out of, and for other people to convince you otherwise. I know when you are feeling this way probably the worst thing I could suggest is recording yourself, but you could try it with a resolve to ONLY hear/see the good parts (however small!), even make a list of the things you CAN do. You may surprise yourself..

Jo-Jo, what do I know about string playing, I'm only a singer, except when I went to college I had to rebuild my technique due to placing problems, and I was made to do this on Grade 8 + repertoire and not Nursery rhymes.

It would have been better and easier to have done so using easier songs, so I could have worked on the passagi better and furthermore had my singing teacher at college not put a false ceiling on my voice, I would have had a better feeling for where the passagi actually were.

So from this lesson, my suggestion is if you feel it is necessary to rebuild your bowing technique by going back to bowing patterns on open strings, then do it. I've just no2son do a term of that and add 1st finger 1st position towards the end.

If you want to correct your intonation by going back to 1st position and honing into your listening skills with no vib and no changes of position, then go for it. Secure that intonation and fingering at the fundamental stage.

You will know when you are happy and with a teacher with a good ear, they can reassure you. Then add 2nd add scales where you are using 1st position 4th finger instead of the open string. Once happy with 1st and 2nd position add 3rd, only add the next step when you are completely happy. Learn new pieces rather than revising old, but learn new pieces at the correct level.

You will soon be back playing the Bach Sonata. However you will be playing the Bach Sonata knowing you have consolidated your technique. I've had to do similar things with my oboe and with the piano as well as my singing so know it is worthwhile.

You are not the first musician who has felt this way or even done this. I admire you for working this out for yourself rather than needing to be told.

You have been flattered by those who have heard you play, and if their faith in you is justified (I think it just might) you will be the better player as a result.

Good luck.

However, remember, I am not a string player so what do I know!

I would like to hear these grade 5 pieces that JoJo plays so badly.

Sorry everyone, been busy at work and off the forum



Thank you violinlove, this may be an option, do half practice on 'grade one' half on what I am doing now....maybe...still have to talk to teacher tomorrow (aaarrrggghhh )


Thank you BlackBird, I'll have to say thank you to what you said about my two performances....how could I not? if you think I played well enough that is all that matters really!
I actually have recorded those performances and maybe when I listen to them I listen to them with an overcritical ear (the one of a teacher?), that can be very good of course as otherwise we would never improve but I think I also use my overcritical ear a little too much the negative way ie: I should indeed use it to 'acknowledge' in order to know what to change/improve next time but not to 'bash myself'


Absolutely viola-mad! you are SO right and as in my reply to BlackBird I probably have a very good tool indeed: my ear! should stop using it to 'bash myself' and use it more to practice those passages!



Yup Miffy 'consolidate' is what I've been trying to do, but I think I 'miss' some basic building blocks as I keep falling onto the floor too often, otherwise why is my teacher telling me off just too much all of the time? I would have hoped his telling off would slow down just a tiny bit by now? noooooooo it's not! that is why I am still making all the silly mistakes I was making 2 and a half years ago! that's why! I need to go back I think! I'll tell him tomorrow



I don't think I have progressed that fast...I have been playing 5 years and I don't know what 'grade' I am to be honest maybe 6? I can't say I am grade 7 as I can play grade 7 pieces if they are 'slow' but give me a fast one and I'll make a mess of it!!! and grade 8 pieces slow yeah maybe fast? FORGET IT!
so no, it's not that fast my progress, I'd say average and if you actually stop and listen to how I play I don't play that well at all, quite below average so you take that into view as well, if you want me to play 'well' maybe I can only play grade 3 to 4 pieces adequately, anything more difficult I can't play well so no, I have not progressed fast after all...but thank you for having such high view of me



Hi Immy, no have not read that book, I don't have much spare time at all in my day to day life...I work many many long hours 6 days a week I find it hard to find to play my violin
I have to go back to listen to my hypnotherapy CD though re: my low confidence, that did help me....
At one point I was going to 3 orchestras but have left it all behind, I was NOT enjoying it but rather found it got in the way, I did not have time to practice the orchestral stuff as all I want to/like to practice is my solo stuff from my lesson and when I go there I feel lost not knowing how to 'keep up' as I have not practiced. I find I cannot socialise as there is only a 15 mins tea break so what is the point? and no, I don't find that the more you go the more you learn to 'catch up and play more' as I went for a year and I still could not 'catch up' I got tired of it! I will go back when I reach licentiate, until then I felt I was more tired then actually enjoying it (I do work nearly 60 hours a week though)....



AH! Miffy...I record myself very often! I actually 'video' myself a lot (you know this actually!!!) and I think it is a 'torture' more than anything else as I ALWAYS watch my videos like an 'hawk' ready to PICK at any mistake....going THERE THERE IT'S AWFUL, I KNEW I WAS GOING TO SOUND AWFUL LISTEN LISTEN I MUCKED IT UP AGAIN!! NO IT'S NOT RIGHT, NO NO IT'S SHARP IT'S FLAT, NO NO I GOT THAT WRONG, I WILL NEVER PLAY IT RIGHT THROUGHOUT



That is how I feel Jod.... but I think my teacher will say no

Any, either, both. Doesn't really matter.

Ok, this is jojo playing recently (on my birthday, last november) but I am playing a grade 7 to 8 piece (Playera by Sarasate)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McDKOiXP7cI

the following is me 2 years ago practicing a grade 5 piece a month before my exam
YOU ARE WARNED TO TURN YOUR VOLUME DOWN IT IS A LOUD VIDEO!!!
(my goodness it was a bit bad!!! and I still hadn't learnt vibrato LOL )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bj02pAjhnDM

and one last video which was taken during my practice last september (don't have a clue on difficulty of piece, sorry, it's the 'Dance of the Blessed Spirits' by Gluck transcription by Heifetz):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzqf-8qwGZ8

I've only been playing for a few months, so I'm in no position to give specific comments. However, I admire you for what you wish to accomplish, and wish you the best of luck.

I hope one day I can play as well as you do in your videos!

thank you Zecic that's extremely nice of you, I wish for you to achieve everything you want and that one day you can play MUCH MUCH better than me I mean it with all my heart

A few thoughts from a non-string player:





A few years ago my teacher organised a master class, in which I played. The masterclass teacher gave a recital at the end of the day and he was a very good player. At the end of the recital, he came to see me to tell me how impressed he was by my playing We had a long (and very interesting) talk and one of the things he said (which I have thought about a lot since and which has helped me through difficult times) was that he admired my patience. He said the biggest obstacle for adults who start a new instrument is patience. We know what the instrument is meant to sound like and are only too aware of the gap between our playing and our ideal but there is no short cut; you need to put in those thousands of hours. He said adults give up not because they have reached their limits but because they are too impatient.


My impression is that the better you become the more critical teachers become. When I first started I could play a whole piece (all right often only a couple of lines but still a whole piece) before my teacher said anything. Now, I rarely manage more than a couple of bars and sometimes he stops me after just one note I have made friends with an adult who is learning the flute and she was shocked once when a very good (ie diploma standard pupil) had a lesson after her. My friend admires this pupil's playing and she was very surprised that the teacher stopped the pupil every couple of notes, pointing out all the things that were "wrong".

A couple of years after I started, I had my lesson right after a young beginner. My teacher was always telling her how good she was and praising her for things like remembering how long a minim lasted for. One week, after she'd gone, he said to me "I never tell you anything you do is good, do I?" He went on to apologise saying that it wasn't because he didn't think I was good (because he assumed I knew I was) but also that for him it made a nice change to be able to spend a whole lesson teaching and not having to try and make sure the pupil stayed motivated by complimenting them every five minutes.

Sometimes I think we are not quite on the same wave length. At the end of the last academic year, I spent weeks struggling with one particular technical point, seemingly making no progress at all and with him repeating the same thing every week. Eventually, in dispair in one lesson, I said to him "this is hard," to which he replied "of course it is, I didn't ever tell you it was easy" When I objected that it was "too hard" because he was having to repeat himself every week, he claimed he could hear a difference from one week to the next and that I was actually mastering it faster than he had expected, I just needed to be more patient. Occasionally he will preface his criticism by saying "You might say I'm splitting hairs but I think you could..."

The other thing I have found helpful to put my own playing into perspective is when I have seen my teacher teach other pupils. I found it reassuring that some of the things he always repeats to me, he also always repeats to every other pupil which made me realise that these things are hard for everyone and it is not because I'm hopeless.

In other words, I would take your teacher's constant criticisms as a positive sign of the improvement in your playing.

And finally (and slightly tongue in cheek), what are the basics? I have discovered that the "basics" vary from one country to another. As I posted recently, my younger daughter had a few violin lessons when she was five and the beginner's book she was given started with 3rd position (and no open strings). 1st position was only introduced in volume 2.

Well here are my thoughts for what they are worth. I must from the outset state that I have 'effectively' (long story, returning Violin beginner) been playing for a few months. However I have played the Guitar for many years and being a maker I have heard many, many Violinists of all abilities.
Your intonation issues are apparent. I'm not going to pretend otherwise, that would be both foolish and unhelpful. So their lies the obvious weakness that needs addressing. Not that unusual in itself, pretty much every musician has areas of strengths and weaknesses. I doubt that this requires a wholesale move back to the beginning, just specific and targeted practice.
The bowing in the last Video (Birthday one) seems to be under better control and smoother.
BTW I knew an ex RCM Grad (ex Mordkovitch student) who told me he practiced long, slow bows on open strings for a few minutes each day. He had even done Post performance. There you go, a very advanced Violinist doing something that seems very basic on a regular basis.

Right here's my tuppence worth.

The placing of your web cam allowed me to watch what you were doing with your fingers and your bow, so I could observe the nice and the not so nice.

How much rosin have you got on your bow? Your bowing its self looks good. There are times however that it looks as if it is bouncing on the strings as if there is not enough rosin on the bow. There has clearly been an improvement since your grade 5, so your desire to go back to the beginning is un-necessary, especially when you read what I say next.

Your intonation, as far as finding each position is extremely accurate. Your position of your fingers within each position however is more dubious.

It might be worthwhile practicing the intonation changes extremely slowly or even without pulse listening to each one until they are bang on. Also keep vib consistent. There are times you produce a very dry sound as there is no vib, then put a huge wobble in. If you are playing with vib its gentle vib then warm up the note gradually not all or nothing - this applies to all musicians who are varying vibrato rates.

As long as you can play the rhythm in time concentrating on pitch without rhythm to sort out tuning is OK. Keep it to short sections without any positional changes. really listen to the tuning allow no errors. Be very strict and disciplined with yourself.

The Gluck/Heifitz was better than the first piece. I also think your bowing would improve if you tried singing phrases through at which ever pitch is comfortable and running with the phrasing. Give the music some air.

However, I am only being this critical as you are wanting to improve so terribly much and that otherwise there is so much to commend about your playing.

Have faith in yourself Jo-Jo. You are definitely heading in the right direction.

I do hope that a constructive pair of eyes and ears have proven helpful

JoD.

Thank you very much. I also hope you achieve everything you want.

Jod - re intonation in positions, I have just spent all morning saying to pupils "it's one thing getting to the position, but do you know exactly what happens next?'. It's very common, the plan has to continue beyond the actual shift so you are spot on there. Also with the singing of phrases, (even the saying of phrases if they won't sing), out loud or silently. It makes a HUGE difference to the music. Vibrato, yes, it should be an integral part of the development of the phrase/musical line, not just there for individual notes for the sake of it.

JoJo, I have also struggled for years (as an adult learner) with intonation. As well as the Sevcik op.8 I mentioned earlier I was taught this helpful drill. Put the first finger on Bb on the A string. As you play it s-l-o-w-l-y slide it up to B natural, then back. Then with second finger on C slide up to C# and back, and so on with all the fingers on all the strings in first position. You can also slide over a whole tone, if you like, so that your third finger covers D-Db-D-D# and your fourth Eb-E-F.

I'm not sure why it works but I found it made a big difference. Perhaps because it emphasises the different finger positions - contracted, square and extended - and also gets the fingers used to making adjustments on the string as you play. I notice that often you don't correct the intonation even when there is plenty of time to do so, as if once you play the note your finger is stuck there. Or maybe you need to train your ear a bit more.

Menuhin wrote somewhere that he didn't expect the young players arriving at his school to play in tune with all the notes at their fingertips, but that they were taught to adjust the finger very quickly. Soon they made the corrections before they actually played the note and landed first time in the right place.

Honestly, there is no point in going right back to grade 1. Explain to your teacher how frustrated you are and see if he can give you some specific exercises. And maybe you need to do some more ear training. I can't make any suggestions there as I have been blessed with a very good ear. By itself that doesn't make my fingers fall in the right place, though, and I have had to work very hard to train them.

Your playing is very promising - don't lose heart.

To add to mcm's exercises, the first page of the Ysaye exercises are really good for intonation and long notes/string crossing/bow control. An all-in-one package!
Slowly though..

Jojo, Just been watching your videos and I might have got this wrong, but I noticed that you seem to be looking at your fingers quite a lot. I probably only picked up on it as I got told off for it a week or two back. In fact only yesterday I was murdering a G major arpeggio - I know embarrassing, but my excuse was I felt a bit under the weather (not that that flies with teacher ), Anyway I had to play the arpeggio while watching teacher pick up objects of the table and wave them around. Once I stopped "thinking" about where my fingers were and couldn't watch them, surprise, surprise everything snapped into place.

So maybe that's something you could try - not looking at your hand?

Aha- the singer does know something. I used these things erm... ears and watched the video clip with my erm... eyes and just put two and two together.

Ah..ears..must tell my pupils about those..

mmm... I know exactly what you mean...

Especially when a lousy singer can spot things about you esoteric string types!

Hi Jojo, I agree with what Jod and Miffy have said...I have similar intonation issues (especially when nervous), and this is how my teacher addresses them...

He gets me to play it one note at a time. Place that finger quickly (as if playing at speed), pause, play. FEEL the sensation in the fingertip and your hand, listen for the ring of the note saying it's perfectly in tune. Correct if the intonation is not absolutely perfect. Take the finger off again. Repeat ad nauseum, a few mins on each problem note or to be really thorough, work through the piece note by note. It does work...in fact I need to do some tomorrow!

You can also think of you bow hand at the same time. The pause gives you time to make each bow the best bow you can.

My teacher tells me off for being impatient and says this is what needs to be done to secure intonation and the piece completely with LH and RH.

Best of luck tomorrow xx

Good advice from your teacher, Sunrise. Also very slowly slurring two notes together, listening and feeling, then repeat the last note and slurring it into the next, and so on. Good for intonation, tone and continuity of sound.

Jojo, you say you have a problem playing fast...something that is helping me is to play the notes in pairs - quickly but pausing between pairs to prepare - and the secret of playing fast (again from my oh-so-wise-one) is to take your fingers OFF quickly. So practice slowly, but treat your fingerboard as if it was redhot. Pause between notes at the start...then put 2 together, in all the different ways you can think of, sep bows, or slur, then 4 together. All the time play that group as fas as you can and pause between the groups.

Jojo, looking at those videos should tell you how far you've come in 2 years! I was really struck with how good your hand position was in the first video, and then watching the second your placing was nothing like so secure. Your left hand is soooo much better now, and so is your bowing. The Gluck was definitely the best performance, but the Sarasate is about ten times more difficult, so not surprising. I think that Jod is right - the shifts are accurate but you seem not to be adjusting the finger SPACING in different positions with absolute certainty. That's certainly something that you can cover with Sevcik and the like - but also, you need to address it when you are first LEARNING a piece - probably why your teacher constantly corrects, to make sure you get the right sound into your head and the right feel into your muscles.

One thing that should cheer you up - starting to play as an adult, at least you don't have to get used to a bigger violin every couple of years!!!

(ps I was a pretty rotten violinist and while I could play in tune most of the time, never in a thousand years could I make the sound that you do! You look RIGHT when you play and that shows that you're DOING most of it right!)

(pps I am very picky and can't lie to save my life)

Another way of practising playing fast is to play a section one note to a bow, but for each note play four notes a quarter of the value, when you get to the end go back to the start and play three notes a third of the value, two notes a half and the notes themselves etc. Each time going back to the start to repeat but do not stop the bow or slow down the bow speed!

This might be similar to previous suggestion...

It's the opposite, and the two would work well together!!

If your problem is intonation, surely it is better to start with the slow work before the fast work. You need time to listen and adjust the tuning and gradually adjust/relearn the motor memory. (at least if motor memory as applied to the violin is at all similar to motor memory as applied to the piano and organ is concerned)