Hi i'm a late starter who started the violin at 12 and gave up after about one and a half year. I continued again at 17 and am now at grade 5. I'm intending to take about two or three years from now till i apply to college to study music. My only question is where should i study? I've heard that studying in the uk is pretty pricey for international students so i'm wondering whether there are cities in the uk where living expenses might be cheaper. Are there any good universities or conservatoires that are in the more affordable parts of uk? Btw just a side note, would they look down on musicians who have started late as we would not have all the orchestral experience and all the other things we've missed out?

Getting into conservatoires, especially on the violin, is very competitive - you need to be significantly beyond Grade 8 standard to have a decent chance of getting a place, and what they're looking for at audition is people who have a real chance of making it as professional performers.

University courses don't have that same specialisation in performance: while many do include performance as one element, they're a more all-round academic education, with an emphasis on research, historical awareness, analysis, composition, and so on. As a result, they're looking for evidence of academic ability as well as Grade 8-ish playing standard, and they'll give some indication on their website of expected standards in some foreign qualifications. You can always email them to ask, if they don't give the information you need.

As for costs: the biggest one will be the fees, which will be astronomic wherever you study! A basic rule of thumb for living costs is the further away from London, the cheaper it'll be to live. Cities with lower costs of living and good universities include Liverpool, Sheffield, Newcastle and Belfast.

I didn't start violin until i was 16, i auditioned for royal welsh coll when i was 18 and got an unconditional reserve and then the next year when i was 19 got into welsh coll and birmingham conservatoire (where im studying now) so i'd say they don't necessarily look down at lack of time playing, however at my Birmingham audition they seemed very concerned about it and said that i 'Can't know who i am as a violinist/musician after only playing for 3 years' I had however had previous experiences on other instruments since the age of 6, so

I overheard once that it's significantly cheaper for international students but i may have got that totally wrong

But keep in mind you have to be well past grade 8 and even then you're lucky to get a place. (goodness knows how i got in!!)

How old are you now (how long did it take you to get to grade5?)

Thanks for the replies! I'm now 19 and in a few months time, it'll be two years since I picked up the violin again. I'm intending to work first while concentrating on the violin for about 2 or 3 more years before applying to study music. Really hoping I'll be at the standard needed by then. I'm not too sure whether a university or a conservatoire would be better for me. I think I would have a higher change of getting into the universities than the conservatories because of my late start. Although I'm not extremely academic, maybe a B average student, so that's why I still can't decide.

That's absolutely extraordinary, well done!

PS I think you are wrong about overseas students: they pay more, not less.

Thanks Discopants!
And yes maybe i am - i remember overhearing it in a conversation but i probably heard wrong, seemed a bit odd!

Fees for overseas students will vary according to whether the student is from the EU or not. EU students pay the same as home students and if they're lucky their home country might pay them for them. Non EU students payed around ?18 000/year last time I looked. The very talented lucky few might get a scholarship but most don't.
Violingeek where are you from? It might be worth trying to get an advise lesson at some point from someone who teaches at conservatoire/university level to find out what they're looking for and what you'll need to do to achieve it.

Flliwt, it used to be true..back in my day when we still had grants..
It may still be the case for non-EU.

In my day the number of Royal Northern Rejects who were on the Grad Dip performance Course at Huddersfield was extremely high. I don't know if this still is the case, but like Birmingham, I would not dismiss it, there are plenty of performing opportunites. The quality of String teaching was certainly high when I was there, and the number of people who got into conservertoires at post grad level was high.

The course name has changed since it became a University.

I'm actually asian. I would really like to get into a conservatoire but i think my late start would put me at a disadvantage. I'm looking at unis outside of london because its more affordable. Huddersfield looks like a good choice, might research a little and find out. Are there any unis that are both academic and performing based, preferably with a decent strings dept?

I went to Napier University in Edinburgh which certainly had a very good reputation for its balance of performance and academic work when I was there. It was quite a small department though, so although it had a chamber orchestra predominantly for the strings there weren't enough numbers to stretch to a symphony orchestra!

Just thought - while outside London, Edinburgh doesn't necessarily fall under the 'more affordable' bracket Well, I suppose you can check it out just in case it's the uni for you!

I'm going to call a spade a spade here. If you are 19 and grade 5 on the violin then you have virtually no chance of getting into a conservatoire. Depending on your academic qualifications you may get onto a music degree at university but not for performance and certainly not at a sought after university.

That very much depends when you decide to audition and attempt to get in.

I do not have enough information to be that dismissive. Huddersfield had mature students who went on and did Post-grad qualifications at conservertoires, this included string players.

Your spade, is now a glorified horticultural digging impliment. There is more than one way to start a musical career, and at the time I attended Huddersfield, it's music department was extremely well regarded.

Indeed, though being older does put you at a lower chance of being accepted, we have many mature students. I have someone on my BMus1 course in his 50s!

Firstly I didn't dismiss or even mention Huddersfield. I have no idea if it's a good university or not. I'm also not intending to be dismissive but honest with the OP. Violin is the most competitive instrument and as mentioned before musicians come with much more than grade 5 at 17/18 let alone 19. If he were to apply now then he wouldn't get in. If he applies in three years time I doubt he would get into a conservatoire but may get onto a music degree.

OP, what do you want to do with your music?

Indeed. I once jokingly mentioned to a prof at the RNCM that I would come for an audition once I reached the required standard. I was told, quite seriously, that providing I could pass the audition and, crucially, pay the fees, age would not be a bar. I may have left it just a little late though. I suspect once my pension comes through it won't cover the fees.

More seriously, I believe Manchester University has a decent music department.

My mum left school with no qualifications at 15, in the days when it wasn't necessary for a girl going into office work. She studied in the evenings when she was a young married woman and got O levels in English, Geography and History. I think she got a D in maths. Then she did A level English lit when my sister did it, again at a night school class. Much later when we had left home she decided to look into a degree. She phoned up one of her local universities and said she was very mature, and didn't look good on paper, was there any way she could do a degree. They invited her along for a chat. She wrote out what she wanted from a degree and why she wanted to do it, and handed it in like an essay when she went to meet them. She was accepted onto a full time course in English language and literature, and graduated three years later, a month before she turned 60. She then taught A level English for a number of years at a local 6th form college.

It's never too late, and for mature students they are more flexible on entrance requirements.

Indeed, and decent alumni, too

If you want to find out the importance placed on performance at different universities, take a look at how the course credits break down. Normally each year consists of 120 credits, so somewhere with 40 credits available for final-year performance is very different from somewhere offering 10!

Quite what options you'll have to take performance modules later in the course might depend on how well you achieve in the first two years, but can also depend on your qualifications on entry - for example, I think I'm right in saying that Leeds only takes people with Grade 8 distinction into its more performance-heavy course.

Usually grade 8 distinction is the level required for most music courses. If you audition for conservatoire you need to be playing at grade 8 distinction level or above, but you do not need to have taken the exam, just prove that you can play at that level at audition. Some people play grade 8 pieces at audition, but most play pieces from the diploma syllabus.

Not necessarily, not for university courses. I just look a look at three websites at random (Bristol, Sheffield and Glasgow) - one simply requires Grade 8 to have been passed, one requires a merit, and one doesn't say.

Yes I get the impression that the standard required by the conservatories is now well above Grade 8. The competiton is fierce especially since these days there is a worldwide pool of applicants many of who started playing before they could walk.

Just spotted you've changed your name My son has got into conservatoire and started playing when he was ten. I think it depends on the instrument!

Leeds, Manchester, Huddersfield, York all have decent departments.

Competition is high at 19.

Departments view mature students differently.

MNW is your point of view based on experience or hearsay?

I'm reporting what I saw at college, and where people are now.

Well if you can't beat 'em........

Oh I'm sure you don't need to have been weaned on music, but I think entry standards are pretty high these days. If I remember rightly, RNCM took 6 oboists this year.

Six is a lot! They usually take four saxophonists I think.

Rob Buckland says the standard of saxophonists at RNCM is "ridiculously high".


I stand corrected. I'm more used to conservatoire requirements, we didn't really look at universities.

Jod, I did say that he would not be at the required level for conservatoire but said he may get onto an academic course at a university. I never criticised any university although 3 A's are required at some and even so the musical standard is often higher than grade 5.

As for experience, well for a while now I have been involved with members of staff at conservatoires and specialist schools and the standard for violin is beyond grade 8 and beyond diploma. That is not to say one has to have passed such an exam. Conservatoires attract the best from all over the world who have the experience, have gone beyond all these exams, won prestigious competitions and have been involved in music for years. Maybe things were different when you were at university or the standard required was much less. If the latter is the case then I'm pleased an establishment exists for late starters, or those who are not as talented or have not had every advantage afforded to them.

It's worth noting that the a 3 A's requirement is all about supply and demand, and it indicates the popularity of the department and the university as a whole, which doesn't always correspond to the quality of teaching on offer. There's some popular universities where I wouldn't rate the music course as highly as the entrance requirements would suggest, and vice versa with some less fashionable destinations.

I think things have probably changed. One of my schoolfriends went to Huddersfield thirty years ago. She got a merit at her grade 8 on her main instrument when she was in the upper sixth.

I think we can all agree one wouldn't get into a conservatoire to study violin with grade 5. However, Violingeek talked about applying in 2 or 3 years. None of us know how much progress will have been made in that time, but I think grade 8 or more should be perfectly manageable for someone who is dedicated enough to put in the necessary amount of practice. That still might not be enough for a conservatoire, of course, especially on the violin, but it's not an impossibility.

I have also heard good things about Manchester's music department and I imagine it would be a comparatively cheap place to live.

Manchester is one of the top unis for music and you need AAA or AAB to get in.

Another thing the OP might find helpful is googling 'uk university music rankings'. There's numerous leagues tables, in particular ones by newspapers such as the Guardian and the Times, which attempt to quantify the quality of individual departments through formulas including things such as student satisfaction, research profile, graduate employment prospects and so forth. They vary widely, depending on exactly how they're put together, but do help provide some kind of picture of which are worth considering.

Yes, I do know that at Grade 5, I have a lot more to work on before I get to study music and I do know how competitive it is to get into a conservatoire. Hopefully in 2 years time, I would have finished my grade 8, leaving me an extra year to work on other repertoire and also to prepare for auditions. I know the top conservatoires are out of the picture so am looking at either Birmingham Conservatoire or Leeds College of Music. I will also be applying to a few unis as well and just wanted to know what the academic requirements are like. I'm currently doing a diploma with a GPA of about 3.0 out of 4.0, basically a B average student. I think universities like Manchester are probably out for me, so am just looking for a place who's ok with taking in mature students and has a decent reputation. In terms of what I would like to do, I would probably end up teaching music but I do hope to do a little performing on the side. I love classical music but I would also like to be able to perform jazz or pop music as well, so that's why I'm quite interested in Leeds. I do have to say a thank you to everyone who has posted here though, I really appreciate all the help you've given me since I don't know much about studying in uk. Oh and btw, I'm a girl.

For information on typical requirements for foreign qualifications, get in touch with universities directly. You'll normally find there's a member of staff within the music department responsible for undergraduate admissions, so email them directly to ask, giving full details of exactly what diploma you're studying.

By the way, on digging around for information that might be of help, I noticed that Leeds University has expanded its Music Performance course, including a year studying abroad. Definitely worth taking a look at.

That is what it says 'for the average candidate'. Of course once a senior lecturer has heard you play, and has given you and interview, your offer may be lower. It all depends how much they want you.

Manchester has an excellent reputation, as does Leeds. Each course varies, and they suit different students.

It is worth shopping around and visiting open days. The advantages of the ones along the M62 corridor is that they do draw their teaching staff from the Orchestras and other departments along that corridor too. Hence there'll be staff teaching at the RNCM, Hudds, Manchester and Leeds who also play in the BBC Phil or the Halle or Opera North. It is great to have that level of performance experience in your main instrumental teacher even if it does mean lessons miss the odd week. Some staff are institution specific, some also teach at Chets some teach at one or two, but not the others (I'm talking about the part-time staff not the full time staff) Sometimes they can make arrangements to visit each other for specific tutors.

I've not known conservertoire staff expect anything less of uni students studying performance as a major subject area, and they don't tend to give 1st study second subject performers much slack either when they are acting as an external examiner. They have exacting standards. Yhey need to

Do you think this really happens at Manchester Jod? I'd be interested to know because I've known kids to be offered organ/choral scholarships at Oxbridge but when they've not obtained the minimum level they have not been able to enter. It would be good to think some uni's were more open-minded.

But MNW, the standard Oxford and Cambridge offer is 2 Es, which was the minimum criterion way back when, and if you don't get those two Es you really aren't capable of doing a degree!!*

*talking about ppl who go straight from school to university - I am sure there are lots of people who don't have two A levels who are capable of doing a degree but if you've spent 7 years at secondary school and don't succeed in passing A levels you probably shouldn't be looking at further academic study...

And Oxford and Cambridge (hate the Oxbridge thing) are not conservatoires, they are academic institutions, and certainly in my day it was accepted that you couldn't be an organ scholar or choral scholar if you were reading medicine (and possibly science as well) as it would interfere too much with your studies. While there are some very proficient performers who study music as an academic discipline, and some truly outstanding ones too, there is certainly not a 1:1 correlation.

The applicants were turned down for music though even though they'd been offered scholarships because they failed to get the acceptable grades. Maybe they had to turn them down because it would have looked like nepotism if they'd been allowed to enter without the standard requirement.

I certainly do think it happens at Manchester. I know it happens at Cambridge as I know people who interview at Cambridge.

I have known people who interview at Cambridge all my life.

As a Manchester graduate, I fully endorse what you say about the quality of teachers, but cannot agree that the standard of performance is anything like conservatoire level. Three years of study where performance is worth at most about 30% of your degree comparable to four years of almost complete performance focus? No way.

Anecdote time: One student at the university, who was getting too big-headed due to the fact she was performing the Sibelius concerto, sought my teacher's advice about what her post-graduation plans should be in order to pursue a performing career. The answer was "Go to college, like everyone else". On questioning this, she was told "You do realise every fourth-year violinist could play the Sibelius standing on their head?"...ouch...

Ouch indeed.

The people who went on to study post-grad performance at the RCM and RNCM certainly had an initial shock! They had to work. There were people who were better than them. I remember one soprano whose nose was decidedly out of joint because she was no longer Queen B in the department, and a Mezzo who ended up doing very nicely as she had a good work ethic and got on with everyone. The Mezzo is enjoying a good career, and still gets on with everyone.

I think it makes perfect sense, as I said. If you can't pass two a levels, then university isn't the place for you! The choral/organ scholarships are only based on that one element (and they're worth three parts of ****all anyway, it's only a prestige thing) which is a long way from the most important!



Manchester used (I'm talking a LONG time ago now, more than 30 years) to offer a combined course between the University and the RNCM which would give you at the end of it a BMus AND a conservertoire output. I don't think anyone ever got accepted onto it... you'd probably have had to have given up eating and sleeping!! That really puts in perspective the difference between a university education and the role of the conservatoire. If they were much the same thing, that joint course wouldn't have been considered necessary.

I think they still do.
My clarinet teacher was on that not THAT many years ago.

Just to be clear though, it wasn't two E's but three A's that was required.

It still exists and is very hard to get into. I know someone who didn't even get an audition (candidates have to send in a video with their application) for the joint course but got an audition/interview and was then offered a place at both Manchester and Oxford Universities.

Look, Maths tripos, friend of the family who interviewed for one of the colleges would give a low offer for the students he really wanted.

Divinity Tripos, Standard offer 3 As. Again family friend, If he wanted someone would give an offer of 2 Es.

Music Tripos , Friend of my School Music Teacher conditional Offer: 2 Es.

All Cambridge University. All Genuine Offers. If they really want you, they give you a low offer. If they think you'll fit in, but your as good as the rest, you'll get a standard offer.

I think you are out of date. Nowadays Oxford and Cambridge make conditional offers based on A level grades like everywhere else, and they are much much higher than 2 "E"s. It might have been 2 "E"s once upon a time when applicants were assessed and accepted on the basis of performance in the universities' own entrance exams.

But they wouldn't accept 2E's nowadays. Maybe a lower mark but not two E's. That's lower than GCSE!

I have heard rumours of occasional offers of 2 "E" grades from certain Cambridge colleges where they really want someone. But it is certainly not "standard" as Dulcet suggested.

The music offer was 3 years ago. It is not lower than GCSE that would be U for Ungraded. I have worked for an examination board, I do know how school examinations work. N for GCSE equivalent U for Ungraded.

The Maths and Divinty grades, granted were from 15 years ago, the practice is still going on. The interview counts for far more than you think.

Someone I know has just got an unconditional offer from Cambridge (not music), whereas someone else didn't get a place even though they got 5 A*s at A level as he mucked up one of the entrance exams. They still put a lot more value on their own entrance papers and student suitability.