My Violin is not tuning. I was wondering the reasons why a violin/viola/cello/bass won't tune, apart from slipping pegs (By not tuning I mean that it slips out of tone very easily). My teacher has checked it and said that the pegs aren't slipping, and he thinks its something to do with the tailpiece, however, I cannot find any information about violins not tuning because of tailpieces!

I took it to a violin shop and was told that it's probably the bridge that needs lowering - apparently the tension is too high and is stretching the strings - (I was quoted ?15 to have it shaped and lowered.) Besides this, what other (more serious) problems can leads to violin not tuning properly?

VCQ

I don't see how a too-high bridge could stop the strings from stabilising, as the different angle doesn't make the tension any greater (although it's probably a good idea to lower it anyway).

Things to check:

- That the strings really are wound on properly to the pegs: they should be lying in a neat spiral around the thicker (handle) end of the peg.

- The tailpiece wire, around the end pin. Check it's not stretching, and I've known the screws which hold it onto the tailpiece to work loose under tension, but you can't check these unless you're comfortable taking all the strings off and putting it back together afterwards.

- The end pin itself, that it's not working loose and that there's no cracks or open joints around it.

- The joint of the neck to the body, that it's completely solid and not gradually coming loose.

That's all I can think of right now!

Does it dislike the cold weather?

My violin is great most of the time, but doesn't stay in tune if it's cold

Good point! Lots of violins are temperamental in extremes of temperature, or rather, the accompanying extremes of humidity, and it can also cause slipping or sticking pegs.

Actually, that raises a good question for the OP: are the pegs slipping, or is it going out of tune with the pegs staying in place?

The pegs ARE staying in place... it might be the cold weather then, because it was fine at home, but at school where it is colder it won't tune.

My money is on the tailgut

Liz

Does anyone use gut to hold the tailpiece on a modern instrument? I can't think of any advantage in doing so, and you have the disadvantage of its lower stiffness than wire, so that the effect of tuning one string on the pitch of the others is greater.

It's still referred to as 'tailgut' even though it isn't. With old violins, it's possible to still encounter it, although rarely in reliable condition!

Sorry, but was IS a tailgut?

Click on the link. You should get a picture of the tailgut:

http://www.dov-music.com/proddetail.asp?prod=2493

Originally they were made from real Gut - not a lot wrong with using real Gut for the tail piece, it works!
Modern types are usually some type of plastic/Nylon but with threaded ends.
If the instrument is stable at home but not stable in another environment, then that would seem to suggest that it is Humidity/temperature related. Except that modern wound metallic/synthetic core strings are less susceptible to humidity changes. I would expect the strings to stabalise after an hour or so in the new environment.
I have come across very cheap unknown brand strings (not Violin though) that have been very poor at maintaining pitch.
Of course you have stated that it is stable at home, which again would suggest that the strings are fine.
Are all of the 4 strings losing pitch?
I think Owainsutton as covered all the other possibilities.

Oh! Thats what my teacher said!... I thought (or assumed!) that he meant tailPIECE though...


I have 30 minute lessons, but my violin tunes perfectly fine at home!


Yes all of them are untuning themselves!
Thanks for all the help, the violin is at Soundhearts violin shop and I'll collect it in the morning...
By the way, is there much point spend money on repair on an antoni debut? I could easily get a stentor violin for around ?65!

Just a thought ... have you just changed the strings?

I have found that it can take a couple of days for new strings to settle and stay in tune for more than a few minutes.

I would put quite a lot of money on the tailgut ... VERY easy to fix and will cost a couple of quid.

Liz

[quote]
Are all of the 4 strings losing pitch?
I think Owainsutton as covered all the other possibilities.[/quote]
Yes all of them are untuning themselves!
Thanks for all the help, the violin is at Soundhearts violin shop and I'll collect it in the morning...
By the way, is there much point spend money on repair on an antoni debut? I could easily get a stentor violin for around ?65!
[/quote]

Sorry but I'm not familiar with that end of the market. Clearly one should not be spending a lot of money on something that can be replaced for less though!
Any decent violin repairer should be able to tell the fit/condition of the Pegs and very quickly (ie. for free!) rule those in or out. The tailgut is more problematic (perhaps it reacts to temp/humidity more than the norm) but as Elida states it's hardly a major cost.

To be honest, I don't recommend anything less than the Stentor II, which is over 100 quid new nowadays. So unless you're talking about second-hand, don't buy that Stentor!

Well, a specialist shop ought to know what is wrong but I really cannot see how it can possibly be the bridge. Get on google, buy yourself a tailgut and replace it!

liz

Had my reply back for the violin repairs... turns out its ?45 to have it fixed!
The problems are:
Violin Bridge needs adjusting
Tailnylon too long/thread gone
Pegs head holed repositioning, bow: horrible.

The shop recommended the following violins...
-Soundpost Concertante ?250 w/ upgrade strings
-Stentor Messina ?250-350 w/ upgrade strings
-Andreas Zeller ?225 outfit

However... I spent sometime researching and found three violins that sound promising:
Gliga Gem
Stentor Conservatoire
Antoni Premier
^ What grade would they be okay up to?

Depends on the individual Violin and the set up. Given decent strings and a well set up Violin I fail to see why such an instrument can't be used for Grade 8. There is always variation in any particular brand or 'model' of Violin, simply by the virtue of wood not being an homogenous material.
At near ?350 you are into the realm of old German trade instruments. Makes your choice far greater but also confuses matters (nothings easy).

Even the antoni premier?!

I don't know the model, but anybody going into a Grade 8 with a 150-quid violin (no matter how well set up) would concern me. I wouldn't want anyone on a sub-?300 factory violin attempting to use it beyond Grade 7.

I'm sure there are individuals out there with such instruments that will indeed provide what is needed, but finding them is a matter of trying individual violins, just as finding a suitable antique instrument in a higher price range is.

I don't know the Antoni Premier, Would be happy to recommend the Gliga Gems up to at least Grade 6, it would go higher, I did Grade 8 on a Poller (equivalent to Zeller), but I did have some high level set up work done and a different bow. The Stentor? Perhaps Grade 5 but I am not expert on Stentors. At the end of the day it is the player who is examined, not the instrument and I have heard of Grade 8 distinction achieved using a Stentor students cello from the school cupboard. What you need to do is to set yourself a budget and within that budget get the one you like best.

Bear in mind, though, that the shop may well have been out to persuade you to buy a better instrument, you could still make that isntrument playable for a couple of quid.

Liz

Any views on Hidersine violins? I have seen two or three recently and liked them a lot more than the equivalent Stentors...

W

It's the musical performance which is examined: if this in inhibited by the instrument, allowances aren't made which assume that it could have been better (in the same way as a singer with a cold doesn't get a free pass). I'm not doubting that people have achieved such performances on Stentors, but there's far more people who would not, but given a more suitable instrument would do so.

Maybe I should consider a yitamusic violin for now, and upgrade when I am Grade 5...? If I take get a good luthier to set it up for me, it should be good enough, since there are lot of good reviews (except about set up).
Or it'll be useful to have a look at the second hand violins in this price range :3

What you need to realise is that ANY violin you take to a shop that aims to sell violins, is going to get as much found wrong with it as possible, in most shops. The shop wants to sell you a violin, they don't really want to spend time setting up internet violins. There is certainly a lot of room in the market for independent luthiers who only want to set up and repair and not sell, but at present there are few if any such people in the market.

The most extreme case I saw, though to be fair this was not a specialist shop, was where a shop completely "wrote off" as beyond repair a violin that at the time retailed for about ?400, on the grounds that the tailgut was slipping. This repair took me something like 5 minutes and cost about ?1.50 in materials. I am not in the habit of charing ?400 for 5 minutes of my time The shop did offer to take the said violin as a trade-in against one they sold ...

Liz

Actually there are lots of trained independent Luthiers/repairers, it's just that they drop out because it's so difficult to make any sort of living from it. Over the years I personally have known three people who have gone through the 3 year course at Newark and three who did the course at Leeds. Out of those six only one is still doing repairs and even he is part time - mostly because his other work pays much better. There's not a lot of money in setting up/repairing Violins at the cheap end of the market, it's hard enough at the mid price range - which is probably why so few who trained actually end up doing it for a living.

It's unfortunate that the shops for whom this is not the case get tarred with the same brush.

It's rather like mechanics...everyone distrusts everything they're told about their car, which makes it really unpleasant for the honest guys. However, they're the ones who tend to stay in business through good times and bad, and I'd suggest that's the same with violin shops...

I couldn't agree more. There are some (lots of) very honest and excellent luthiers and violin shops put there that woulnt dream of finding things wrong for the sake of it. The one I use has done many kindnesses to my pupils, fixing bits on their violins for next to nothing (or nothing) and would never dream of running their violins down or recommending one of his instead as he understands how precious your own instrument is. He has also sold some amazing violins to those who can afford them. He stays in business because people trust him, not because he rips them off.
I am sure he is not the only one.

Another good point, made to me by one of the trustworthy shop owners, is that if somebody is looking for antique violins but has a budget of a thousand quid or so, we know they're going to be quite limited in their options, but it's bad for business if you tell them that without a great deal of tact. It's easy to forget, when you're used to dealing with instruments worth thousands, that for many people, after house and car, that's the single most expensive thing they might ever buy.

This is very true, I have had pupils in the past who were very fixated on an older violin with a limited budget for upgrading. The good places seem to put in just as much effort in selling something under ?1000, which to them might be small change.

Luckily I have a good shop not too far away. The last time I had a pupil wanting only an antique violin on a somewhat optimistic budget we went and tried what they had, but there was only one which the pupil could afford and the sound was not quite what they were looking for. At this point one of the luthiers came out to talk to us, discussed what we were looking for and told us he would go through violins waiting to be restored and get back to us.
A month later he called and had 3 violins in the pupils price range restored. They reserved these for us until we could make it in to try them (which was another few weeks). The end result was a sale for them and a happy pupil for me, and the violin has just got better with playing.

At the time we bought it, the most expensive violin in the shop was around 50 times what my pupil spent but the way we were treated showed that they were interested in finding an instrument which was right for the pupil and within their budget, not just about the money

But on the other hand, a violin workshop told me that it took ?80 to set up a bridge for the antoni debut! In another, it was ?15!
By the way, has anyone had any experience with this shop? Violin Shop Online

If the shop is really suggesting that you should spend more in repair costs than what the violin itself costs, that is totally ridiculous. It seems the Antoni Debut sells for between ?50-60 with case and bow. I don't think any reputable shop would advise you to spend more than the instrument is worth on repairs, unless it had some huge sentimental value to you (which a new Chinese violin clearly will not).

A good bridge could indeed cost ?80, but it is not appropriate to fit one to a beginners instrument. Are you sure this shop actually has a workshop? The price may be high because they have to send the violin to someone else as they are not capable of the work themselves.

Why not try going to a local shop to try out some new violins which have already been set up? If you keep looking at internet/ebay purchases you will never know what sort of playability it will have until it arrives, and you could easily be faced with the situation where making it playable becomes an additional cost you could do without.

Maybe I should go and try as many violins as I can within my budget, and get a couple on approval...

That's the difference between a good-quality bridge, properly fitted. The blank alone could be over half the cost, with up to an hour's work involved.

15 quid would be the cost of an 'adjustable' bridge, the ones with the feet that twist. These need minimal work to fit them, but are no good on decent violins.

It's a shame neither shop explained this difference!

Good plan

Sorry, double posted...

Exactly... I'm not even going to say how much my bridge cost, but the blank had been stored for 25 years to age it... The sound difference with this bridge in compared to a previous bridge (which cost 50 pounds) is incredible.

For the OP, yes go and try out violins so that you can compare the sounds. You don't have to commit yourself to buying anything, just experiment and see what they are like.

Perhaps as impressive is the bridge on mine, which was new when I got the instrument, around 1994. It's still rock solid, the back is straight as an arrow....a solid blank turned into a well-fitted bridge, with the feet virtually welded to the belly of the instrument, doesn't let any of the force from the strings go anywhere except into the belly.

I have a Yitamusic T20 and am expecting it to take me up to grade 8 if not beyond. I am currently around grade 6 standard and am nowhere near the limits of the instrument. I bought my violin directly from Yita, not from Ebay, and had quite a long email discussion with them about the sound I wanted (clear, bright and sweet). This was a risky approach to take, but the violin did exactly match what I'd wanted. After I got her, I replaced her strings, had the nutt lowered slightly and had a new bridge made. I also bought a new bow, but the one she came with would have been okay for a while (probably to around grade 5). If you do buy online, you need to budget for having the instrument set up properly after you get it.

I wouldn't honestly recommend buying an instrument online as it is important to try them first. I know that I didn't do this, but I wouldn't honestly recommend the approach I took (even though it has worked very well for me). I wanted to go straight to an intermediate instrument because I'd learnt cello up to around grade 6 at school and therefore expected that I'd outgrow a real beginners instrument quite quickly. I didn't like the Westbury violin which was the intermediate model stocked by my local luthier and by the nearest music shop. The Westbury is a perfectly good violin, but just wasn't what I wanted (it didn't feel or sound how I wanted it to). This left me with a choice of paying in advance for an instrument to be ordered in or buying online. I was given a lot of help from forum members (particularly Rosfrog, who sadly no longer posts on here) and luckily was very happy with the violin I got. That said, I would strongly recommend trying violins out somewhere if you possibly can...

That is the ideal scenario. The more you can try (and directly compare) the better. Preferably from somewhere that has a large number of Violins in your price range. Going by your answers it seems as though you aren't Grade 5 yet. Unless you are very confident that your tone is both pretty good and consistent, it might be a good idea to get some input from a more experienced player.

Flossie. I've looked at the T20 Violin. Their site lists it as being a Baroque Violin - as in having the Baroque set up, so it may have come with a slightly flatter bridge and pure Gut strings. Perfectly fine for playing that style (and folk) although I don't know any who would use such a Violin for Romantic and post Romantic work.

No it isn't a baroque violin. It has a standard fingerboard, not a baroque one, and came with metal strings and a standard (albeit slightly flimsy) bridge. I might 'only' be grade 6-ish standard - and therefore completely inept by your standards - but I'm not totally stupid.

They do also do baroque versions, but mine is a normal violin - as are most of their instruments.

Wonderful. Nothing better than a great bridge. Bridge love

Well I'm Grade 3 ish, so I'm in no position to call anyone inept! (not that I did).
I've now found the T20 listed as a modern.

As for Bridges. The better ones are selected from finer wood and usually have some type of treatment that makes them harder. Although it is possible to pay a lot for a Bridge blank perfectly adequate blanks can be had for well under ?10. The price is in the fitting - which should be very exact on the feet contact area. Given that and the rest of the work put into the Bridge it's understandable why ?50 - ?60 isn't unreasonable. Just don't expect a great Bridge or fitting from one at ?15!!

Wondering where I could go and try one of their instruments...
Today, my teacher changed my tail gut/piece AND gave me a new bow! I did get a go on his ?20,000 German violin... which I am STILL scared of! The plan is either to stick with my current violin or get a few on approval and ask my teacher to 'rate' them and tell me which he thinks is the best violin shopping is exciting...!

[quote name='ViolinClarinetQueen' date='Feb 6 2012, 06:06 PM' post='1127479'] [quote name='Flossie' post='1127359' date='Feb 5 2012, 11:27 PM']
[quote name='ViolinClarinetQueen' post='1127049' date='Feb 4 2012, 10:08 AM']
Maybe I should consider a yitamusic violin for now, and upgrade when I am Grade 5...? If I take get a good luthier to set it up for me, it should be good enough, since there are lot of good reviews (except about set up).
Or it'll be useful to have a look at the second hand violins in this price range :3
[/quote]
I have a Yitamusic T20 and am expecting it to take me up to grade 8 if not beyond. I am currently around grade 6 standard and am nowhere near the limits of the instrument.
[/quote]

I have a Yita viola, which I bought on ebay despite feeling that it was a bit of a risk. It's fine, not outstanding, but more than ok. I showed it to the luthier I normally go to and they thought it was an excellent student instrument, and that the price was very low for the materials and standard of workmanship. It's not the prettiest of instruments, but beauty is only skin deep after all

The only thing they recommended changing was the strings which I would have done in any case, and I had already bought a bow (also Yita, also more than ok, also unbelievably cheap - checking back I see that I paid 21GBP for it and it was a huge improvement from the 120GBP carbon bow I had before). I'm sure the resale value will be poor, but I didn't buy it to resell so no worries.

I think they make good instruments generally if you go above their basic student level, and the above poster has obviously got something really nice by going to them directly, rather than taking a chance on ebay. (I was just being cheap because it's not my main instrument!) Also, I notice that although it has improved over the months since I bought it, the tone always attracts positive comments from anyone listening. Have fun in your search!



(It just occurred to me that it might be helpful to add the actual cost; I won the viola for 87GBP )

I'm leaning towards the yita violins.... although I found yet ANOTHER very 'appealing' violin... the back is absolutely GORGEOUS, with the LOVELY antiqued varnish (just learnt about don't-judge-a-book-by-its-cover at school as well!) and it's got free approval, including postage. The were 3 positive reviews: The link is here Violin It comes with a case and a bow... (I decided to ignore the 'suitable for players of up to Grade 8 and beyond' bit!)
Its either that, an yitamusic violin, or a troll around the violin shops for violin browsing (I dont have to buy one, right?! )
EDIT: maybe I should start a new thread about 'Choosing my new beginner's violin'!