Hi everyone,

This piece is coming along quite nicely and it's basically there. But there's one bar that's driving me mad.
Here's the score:-
http://petrucci.mus.auth.gr/imglnks/usimg/...169_Romance.pdf

On the last page, the second to last bar there's these large spread chords. If you look closely there's a hidden melody, it's indicated by the staccato's and upward stems. The version I have says that for the proper affect, this inner melody must be lightly emphasized. However, this is very difficult considering the size of the chords, and the melody isn't at the top or the bottom of the chord. For example, if you play the first spread chord it's written to spread over G# - D# - G# - B, but most recordings seem to be playing G# - D# - B - G#, so that the inner melody is the last note played on the chords if that makes sense. Sorry if this sounds confusing, I hope I've explained it well enough. Also, do you play the LH spread chords before the RH ones, or are they spread simultaneously?

Thanks for your help!

It's not a piece which I'm familiar with, but obviously that inner melody needs to be brought out subtly, perhaps with a little extra weight on whichever finger is playing the required note. Granted, not the easiest of things to do. You could try playing the arpeggio first and then the staccato note a millisecond afterwards. Also, regarding the playing of the arpeggios, the left hand and right hand have to be spread simultaneously because each chord has it's own arpeggio marking. If they were to be spread one after the other (i.e left hand then right from bottom to top) then there would be an unbroken arpeggio wiggly line from bass to treble. As the marking here is broken between the two hands, it indicates that they are supposed to be played at the same time.

I remember grappling with this beautiful piece for some months last year and then dropping it because matters concerning speed (mostly), size of chords - as you say, and neat octaves prevented me from continuing.
I don't remember having to bring out an inner melody in the section you mention. However, the top B's should be made to sound against the background of the changing harmony to then end in the minor E chord. The 'inner melody' you speak about might be the
D# D# D# D# C# D# E (minor).
Porilo is right about the marking but I remember the arpeggios in the last bars should be played gently but not exactly simultaneously. The effect must be that of a "ripple" and by playing them a tiny fraction of a second apart this is achieved best, IMO.
The ABRSM recording might help though it is sometimes hard to distinguish exactly what effect they obtain.
Forgive my curiosity but this piece was a source of frustration when starting on Grade 7 syllabus after about 5 years' classes and I'd like to know how long it has taken you to learn the piece and how long you've been learning the piano ... so I understand if I can be comforted or if I'd better change instruments ...

Thanks for the replies! It's very much appreciated .


Ahh, I see! I think it might just be my edition, I'm using the Alfred publication "Liszt, 21 selected piano works", and this one has a realization at the end which suggest lightly emphasizing that inner melody. It says Liszt deliberately made them stems stem upwards to indicate a hidden melody. ABRSM suggests using the "Liszt Easy pieces and Dances" but it had no finger marks in or anything, and I like having them there as a guide line.

No worries! Well I've only been serious about Piano for about four years, but I had played casually singe I was about 10, so around eight years altogether. I took both my Grade 5 and Grade 6 practicals and I'm now planning on sitting my 7th. All in all, the piece has taken about a month to get going - it's still far from perfect as I need to work on the dynamics and articulation. IMO, the hardest part is the triplets against quarter notes on the 3rd page onward, purely because polyrythm is probably my biggest weakness on Piano. Haha, don't worry about it - you won't need to change instrument! The piece just takes A LOT of practice and patience. What are your other pieces for Grade 7? Your A and C pieces? You'll be absoloutley fine if you've had five years worth of lessons. Have you ever took an exam before?

Thanks for your help! Much appreciated!

Brahms Intermezzo Op. 117 No. 1 is a good piece for learning/practicing bringing out a melody in the inner notes of a larger chord.

I took about 1 and a half months to get the first and a half pages quite fluent and the whole piece took me about 3 months and still it was far from perfect in my case, too, which is why I dropped it in spite of being so keen on it. Of course, doing as I was about another 6 pieces at the same time + scales/arpeggios and so on, I gave only 15 minutes' attention to the piece almost every day but not more as I find it hard to keep concnetration longer than about 20 minutes on one single piece at a sitting.
The polyrhytm thing is the one thing I have no problems with (being a mature student of 55 rhythm is well imprinted in my mind ... we adults must have some advantage! )
My pieces are
List A Haendel's Allemande
List B. Viniendo de la Fuente
List C Black Coffee
I've just resumed playing them in preparation for June (I take them up and drop them a few times throughout the year).
yes, I took Grade 6 in 2010 and got a Merit but the jump to Grade 7, plus the fact I moved house and my work is time-consuming etc etc etc ... made progress a little after that.

Yes, it is a very tricky piece! Even the first couple of pages were quite baffling at times. I also found the distribution between hands tricky, for example it sometimes seemed illogical to take a certain note with the LH but it felt comfortable for me. My teacher said the piece should be more like Grade 8 because of those tricky polyrhythms, and those finger breaking spread chords on the last page! It's defiantly worth the effort, it just takes a lot! Yeah, a lot of adults seem to be able to get the 2 against 3 thing, no matter how much I try it still sounds slightly off. You've chosen a nice selection there for your exam pieces! I really wanted to do the Allemande but I took one look at the score and decided against it lol! I have found that with the ABRSM, some of the graded pieces seem way more difficult than others! I'm doing the Mozart Presto from the F major Sonata for my List A, and that Allemande looks way more difficult. Same applies with the Liszt Romance I guess, it seems quite a fraction more difficult than the other List B pieces.

Just keep going with it! Sometimes it's hard to make time especially if you've got a lot going on, it'll be worth it though! And even though you're not doing the Liszt Romance for your exam, keep it up because it's a marvelous piece! I suppose you're at an advantage with that because you've no longer got the pressure of the exam,you can just learn the Liszt piece at a leisurely pace. Best of Luck .

I also think this piece is more Grade 8 than 7. To practise the hidden melody, with right hand only begin by leaving out the note(s) above each melody note, so first chord stops on the upper G sharp, fifth chord stops on the C sharp. That way it's easier to put more weight on these notes. Next stage, stop on the melody notes then lightly add the top B ( or F sharp/G and B for the last three chords). Eventually you should be able to bring out the melody while still rolling past it. Finally add the left hand. There are two ritenutos before the end of the piece, so you can be moving quite slowly by the time you get to the final chords !

This piece has a couple of difficult bits, but it is nowhere near Grade 8 standard, and if not for that final bar, it would not be Grade 7 either. Just compare it with some other pieces that have been set for Grade 8, like the last movement of Beethoven's Pathetique sonata, or the Fugue from Ravel's Tombeau de Couperin both of which are at an altogether higher level of difficulty.

I also think there is some over-complicating going on here regarding the technique of playing that last bar.

The first step is have a clear sound-image of the sound you want to project. Then to achieve it simply put a little extra firmness in the finger that takes the melody note as you take each chord, and release that finger whilst still holding the rest of the chord. This can be perfected with slow practice.

You can also learn to roll each the chord in such a way that the greatest weight falls on the melody note.

If you cannot already play a simple block chord of 3, 4 or 5 notes, and bring out any note at will, then it is worth practicing that skill before trying it with a rolled chord. The Brahms piece I suggested in an earlier post in this thread would be a useful piece for practicing that skill.

A 'couple of difficult bits' ? What about managing all those LH arpeggios at the speed required which depart from the usual fingering (E minor) most of the time and making them sound fluent, light and secure at the same time, while still playing octaves comfortably and some of them with a mordent at the top note? Section 1 of the piece is manageable but I think section B is above Grade 7 (and maybe slightly below Grade 8).
I think speed is an issue with this piece. Arpeggios for Grade 7 are set at minim = 56; which means crotchet = 112 (two notes per beat) while Liszt's Romance requires triplets at about the same speed and not just a few bars but for the whole of the second section.
I would like to know what teachers think (or other teachers if you, VH2, are a teacher).

I just watched Alan Chan's tutorial on this on Youtube.
Alan Chan's tutorial- link

I skipped forward a bit and then noticed him playing those final LH spread chord. 'Great, some advice on those chords', I thought, and skipped to that section of the clip. Then I heard "try the large arpeggios at the end, hands seperately. If it feels very uncomfortable, choose another piece for the exam".

He recommends not playing the piece if you have a span of less than a tenth. My span is an octave, an eighth if I hook my fingers around the end of the keys...

It's definitely possible to play this piece perfectly well without a large handspan. I think my hand span is the same as yours (I'm assuming you mean that you can just reach a ninth around the ends of the keys, since an "eighth" would be the same as an octave) and it's really not a big deal. Sure, those chords might be more difficult than they would be with larger hands, but we medium to small handed folk have other advantages Unless you want to seriously restrict the amount of repertoire that will be available to you in the future, it makes sense to learn how to roll 10ths now, because the lots of pieces have the occasional 10th and it's not worth giving up on a whole piece for it. For the very last chord in the LH, I would roll 1-2-5 and then cross over the 2 for the top E. It helps that you can virtually do it as slow as you want.

Sorry, I meant a ninth. I am self-taught and only used to thinking 'an octave and one' etc. This is good news though, a tenth isn't as large an interval as I previously thought. I do play scales in tenths, so I should know though, I can play all these things but I can't talk about them. Best crack open the theory book...

But what I don't understand is this: how can any women be playing much more than an octave? I think my hands are on the large side for a woman so I can't believe that many woman are getting bigger chords than I can. I can strech my hands completely flat to 180 degrees on the table so stretching is not the issue.

At the moment I am just skimming through a version of this piece that I downloaded. Can anyone let me know which edition has the most complete fingering so that I don't buy an edition without fingering?

[/quote] I really wanted to do the Allemande but I took one look at the score and decided against it lol! I have found that with the ABRSM, some of the graded pieces seem way more difficult than others! I'm doing the Mozart Presto from the F major Sonata for my List A, and that Allemande looks way more difficult. Same applies with the Liszt Romance I guess, it seems quite a fraction more difficult than the other List B pieces. Just keep going with it! Sometimes it's hard to make time especially if you've got a lot going on, it'll be worth it though! And even though you're not doing the Liszt Romance for your exam, keep it up because it's a marvelous piece! I suppose you're at an advantage with that because you've no longer got the pressure of the exam,you can just learn the Liszt piece at a leisurely pace. Best of Luck .
[/quote]
Nice encouraging words ... mmm ... I might resume doing the Liszt ... (I agree with Ansatz496 that the hand stretch is not indispensable ... Alicia de la Rocha might never have played so beautifully with her 'tiny' hands if this were a decisive factor).
However, I have more trouble getting the Presto up to tempo with all the demands the piece poses (superb neatness, delicate touch, very musical phrasing, dexterity, etc) than getting the Allemande to sound nice and musical. This may be partly due to the fact that I like the Allemande lots better than the Presto or because I find slower pieces usually easier than others. Also, in my humble opinion, the Presto is one of those pieces which can sound very flat if not played in that special sort of way.
Though looking at the Allemande makes your head spin, once you start playing it bit by bit HS very slowly and then HT, you find it isn't as hard as it looks (which is exactly the opposite of what happens with Liszt's Romance, which might look uncomplicated at first sight - at least to the layman - and which gives so much trouble almost everywhere, as far as I can judge).
If you like the Haendel Allemande from the popint of view of melody and atmosphere, then give it a try, say, for a week, then you'll have more realistic elements to be able to decide.

Completely off subject. I often want to reply to bits of post and have difficulty getting them quoted (in a box with the blue background, I mean) in my reply. Just look at this message I've just posted and you can see my quotation is not neatly arranged as others. Am I doing anything wrong? The funny thing is that it sometimes works and sometimes not (??!!)