Two of my students in particular are causing me some discontent. I'm typing this at 10:30pm on a Saturday night so that goes to show it's on my mind! Both are twelve year old boys who clearly attend lessons because their parents want them to, not through their own choice. Each week they come in and i'm sure their books haven't been opened once since the previous lesson. Scales haven't been learned, nor pieces showing any improvement from one week to the next. I feel like i'm teaching the same lesson over and over again each week. One sits and yawns all the time, the other looks at his watch constantly or takes his phone out of his pocket. I like to think of myself as being extremely patient and friendly, but have began to wonder if they see me as a soft touch for want of a better expression. One of the boys tells me he doesn't even have five minutes to practice as he's so busy with school work. I find this very hard to believe as he tells me about his new iPhone and iPad etc. He has no enthusiasm for anything in the lesson, or any of the pieces i give him and was a bit cheeky to me in the last lesson which i nipped in the bud. He told me last week that he wants to learn to play drums. I teach him piano. Enough said perhaps? The other boy who yawns frustrates me as he picks up things reasonably quickly in the lesson, but then the following week when he opens his book it's as if he's never seen the piece in his life before. When he yawns (which really is all the time) i ask him if he's tired and he replies yes. I guess i'm not asking a question here, i'm just venting my thoughts! All my other students are fine and are making steady progress, but i'm tearing my hair out with this pair. They both come to me on the same day, one after the other and and the end of the day i'm left feeling a bit deflated. Time to get rid of? I've been teaching both now for around six months and really feel it's time to call it a day. Any thoughts/ideas/funny stories would be very welcome please! Thanks.

I have just written a leaflet about practising and have handed it to all parents with the bill. I have also done another one for my pupils who are Gr 6 plus entitled "Success at higher grades". In these I have said that if you don't practise, then lessons just become a supervised practice session and very little progress will be made. I have explained that the minimal amount of practice is 3 times a week. I have explained how pupils should practice..... warm up exercises etc. I have said if they have time to watch TV/ be on facebook then they have time to practice. I have suggested ways parents can help- like reminding them to practice, testing scales, helping pupils make up scales boxes, getting granny to listen to pieces etc.
Having handed these out, I feel I have made every effort to explain to parents what is expected. If they don't get their kids to practice, then there isn't a lot I can do. I have explained that progress will be pretty non existent- or at least very slow. I feel I can't do a lot else.....

Lack of progress/lack of practice is one thing. Complete disinterest/rudeness in lessons is another. I wouldn't stand for it. What's the point ?

About once a term, I do a little mental game where I really pretend that each child has walked through the door and told me that they're giving up piano.

I then put each pupil into one of three groups - (a) I'm REALLY upset, cut up, miserable (b) it's a shame, I'll miss them but it's not the end of the world, and © although a little part of me is upset actually I'm quite relieved, in fact two minutes later I'm feeling positively happy, radiant.

The reasons that the pupil is in group © might be quite varied, it might be mainly the parents fault, it's just a gut overall feeling.
But if I've tried my best, everything I can think of to remedy the problem, and the pupil is still in group ©, I then say enough is enough and call it a day.

Your boys sound a complete drain on your energy and resources.

I would spell it out once and for all, to them and their parents, very firmly, what is expected, what you do and do not accept, no Mr. Nice Guy, just plain talking. And then sit back and see . . . and if it doesn't work, then certainly call a halt to things.

I agree, these two are just demoralising. If they continue to show such complete lack of interest, I would really not be inclined to continue. There is only so much you can do.

When you choose to teach music privately rather than make more money in the corporate world one of the big reasons is to spend your time more enjoyably.

So if, despite your best efforts, just a couple of students are making your life miserable, and spoiling the overall experience why would you continue to see them?

And there is no need to feel guilty, because to keep a student that you have a bad relationship with is doing them a dis-service as well as yourself. There may be another teacher out there with a different style that might make them behave better, and inspire them to work hard at their music and to enjoy it.

I would probably ask the parents if they think the boys actually want to go on (many parents lie, or fool themselves, and say yes even when it's not). If I have a non-practising pupil whom I get on with, I just tell the parents, who, after all are paying, that "without practice, progress is very expensive" and in some cases they do realise this but are happy to pay for just 30 minutes' "exposure to music".

In the case of these two, though, I think an interim report on their attitudes may be necessary.

Do you think your material may not be terribly appetising to these two? A littl of what you fancy does you good - have you already tried looking at what they're getting out of it? Scales, for instance, some people can't get enough of them, but for others they are the BIG turn-off.

I have found it's often useful to ask questions about practising. I used simply to ask what kind of instrument they have at home. Nowadays I ask where it is in the house, particularly in relation to other things like the television or other people's conversations or meals; how it is organised that they practise - do they have a fixed time, are they told to do it, etc; and quite importantly, what are other people doing when they practise. One girls I taught - doing GCSE - said it wasn't easy to practise at home becasue the piano was in the same room as the television and her brother didn't like having the TV off - well of course this was hopeless and I told her so. The best circumstances are probably quite rare - it's when you deciding to play the piano does not impinge on anyone else's activities in the slightest (our piano was in a room which wasn't much used, and although it could be heard, it wasn't enough to distract others)

Some children are self-conscious when practising because they don't feel they want their families to hear them playing badly so they only play the things they can already play! Others resent being told it's time to practise just when they're really interested in something else - but it would seem in this case that if these boys say they don't have the time, they are being left to find the time themselves.

If you think it's worth a last attempt, you really have to involve the parent, after all (I assume) they're paying. First they need to know that the practice isn't happening and it must, so if they want their boys to continue, at lest for a while they need to be firm about practice times. Children who don't make progress don't enjoy it and so they don't practise, it's a vicious circle. So this decision has to be made for them, at least long enough to get them out if this rut. For a few weeks, give the parents themselves an ultimatum - three times a week, documented, and a short but concise list of things to practise and what they need to try to improve in them, to be verified. Maybe two, three weeks, may just do the trick

I do appreciate that there are some parents who mistakenly believe that progress is entirely down to the teacher and not the pupil, like we were vending machines. If your boys' parents fall into this category, fling them back at them!

Substitute "boys" for "girls" and you have a couple of girls I was teaching until last March or thereabouts. To a certain extent I think it depends what you feel like doing.

With one of my pupils, I had provided all sorts of interesting, appealing music which she declared she enjoyed and in fact she made progress with it initially. With the other one, no music was interesting. Arrrgggh!

As we approached the end of term (about this sort of time (Feb/Mar) actually) I dropped into the conversation that I was "concerned" about their lack of practice and that I thought they needed to go home and discuss with parent where their priorities lay. After a few weeks, (I thought my comments had fallen on stony ground ), I had one very agitated mother on the phone. She basically needed me to give her permission for her daughter to give up piano. Naturally, I assured her that it was probably for the best. The second mother simply phoned and said that she felt that X had come to the end of the road, and sport and other things were taking over.

The other thought is that one of your pupils wants to learn drums. I had a 13 year old boy for whom playing the piano was no longer cool and so he went off and learnt guitar which was much better for his street cred. It sounds as though you will need to either sow a seed in the boys' minds to get them to initiate discussions with their parents, or, if you think that won't happen (and boys can be very different from girls in this respect) approach the parents yourself.

Whatever you do, I think you should do something. Thinking about pupils at 10.44pm on Saturday is beyond the call of duty.

I completely agree - the parents need to be involved. For confirmed non-practisers, there are several stages I go through. The first is to give the child a six-week practice diary, with boxes for each day of the week in which to enter the time practised. Each day has a box for a parent to initial, and I give notes at the bottom about how many sessions to aim for per week, and how long to practise for in each session. (Okay, I know it's quality, not quantity that matters, but without any quantity there is not going to be any quality!) The next stage is a phone call or chat in person to the parents and, finally, if things are still not picking up, they get an ultimatum. Thankfully, I have only rarely needed to do this.

I'm sure you have already tried all the usual tricks with these two - asking them what piece / style they would like to play, giving them a lesson off scales for good behaviour, asking them to bring you a lesson plan for the next lesson (these can be quite telling), maybe doing some simple improvisation with them. But I think you do need to find out what is happening at home. Are they reminded (or nagged) about practice? Do the parents take an interest? Do they forget? Is school work really so onerous? If one of them cannot even manage 5 minutes to practise, there is something seriously wrong with the amount of homework he is getting!

At the moment, I have two confirmees: one, a dyslexic teenager who consistently forgets about practice (and everything else!), the other, an almost-retired woman who has issues with organisation and other demands on her time, but who "might" manage 10 minutes before the 10 0'clock news. With both of them, I am trying the same tactic, suggesting that they set their mobile phones to remind them about practise. But for your two, I would definitely put a time limit on it. I did this once for the mother of a young child, and it transformed almost overnight what was happening at home.

Keyboard has a certain amount of street cred, though. That would be easy for me, as I have a 5-octave Yamaha next to my piano that can go pm-chcka-pm-chcka-pm and give you chords at the touch of one button and one key at a time. So in my case I could suggest that they add the accompaniment to what I'm playing, and gradualy filter back into something which takes a little more musical effort.

I've found that parents sometimes need it pointing out that one thing that they need to to do help practice is to allow time for it. I suggest a designated practice time when not only does the child know it's time do do so but the rest of the family know that this time is not to be interrupted.
I't's not awfully helpful if parents are going to start demanding their children tidy their room/ put out the rubbish or whatever in the middle of practice time.

I'm not totally happy with this approach myself.
To me it sort of suggests that there is an end somewhere to learning an instrument when what I really know is that if you are really interested the 'end' just keeps on moving further away.

Oh yes, I've got a Yamaha keyboard too, and we have great fun with it and some of the Hal Leonard material and floppy discs - it's kept a few pupils quite happy over a sticky patch.

Unfortunately it wasn't the sort of thing my particular 13 year old wanted to do.

My pupils all have practice notebooks in which I write simple but clear instructions and I actually tell them what I expect to be achieved by the next lesson. Sometimes, if it's something I know is going to take longer or a less confident child I say something like "this will probably take us two or three weeks."

I do try to make it very plain to the less regualr practisers that I expect to see evidence of work at the next lesson. If they show evidence but haven't yet achieved what I have asked for I write something on the lines of "Evidence of work but not yet mastered. To continue." Other types of comments I have used are

Little evidence of work.
No evidence of work.
Bars 8 to 16 not yet mastered.
This was started three weeks ago and is still not mastered.

I only use this type of commentary when I feel it is necessary and I usually email parents and ask them to be sure to look at the notebook. I also occasionally give practice records - usually a single A4 sheet for the week (I've got several versions pre-printed) and if it doesn't come back signed the next week, again I email.

I don't have a lot of problems with non practising pupils but I know how demoralising it is when it happens in spite of all one has tried to do to motivate. And there are some it is better tosend of to another instrument or to just let go.

I don't quite see how that follows - did you mean the fact that they need to know progress is expensive, or the idea that just by spending 30 minutes in a lesson they're still soaking up music, and interacting with it?

I sympathise completely with the OP. I have one pupil at the moment with whom I've tried everything - emails to mum, pieces he knows and wants to play - even getting him to fill in a practice chart. He's managed this I think once in about nine months, and on one memorable occasion his father had falsified the entries to make it look as if he'd done more than he had! (Easy to be misled on this I know, but I do think this was the case.) If he wasn't such a "nice" lad he'd be the first pupil I've sacked in twenty years of teaching! He may still be!

i think it is a shame and not the children"s faults at all.

What to do about it is another thing. You either leave it as it is and carry on and then when the parent(s) ask why are they not improving or why have you not entered them in for the exam? ----- you can tell them.

OR talk with the parents and explain the situation and take it from there.

..... very sad!

I'm ok with flagging up not practising as an issue.
It's the possible suggestion of a rate of progress I wouldn't want to stress, though admittedly you didn't actually say that. Progress can be very expensive anyway and putting in the practice doesn't always equate to a steady progress.
I've had my share on none practisers and those who do very little. Also experience of students in those categories who parents (and child) decide that they are actually still getting value from the lessons.

Yes, but, that given, without practice, progress is still going to be more expensive than it would have been otherwise. And often, any progress at all is expensive. This only doesn't matter to parents who aren't interested in there being some progress. And as I said, some are perfectly happy to pay for the "musical osmosis" without any measurable progress. But whichever way you look at it, they pay, and you need to consider what they think they're paying for.

True.

Perhaps it is more for the parent(s) to consider what they think they're paying for, as a teacher already knows.

With a 12 year old, I think it is OK to be honest with them and say something along the lines of "this really isn't working is it? Do you really want to learn the piano or have you done enough for now? Is there something you would really like to play (in which case, give it a go) or are you really not bothered?" You can dress it up a bit, but basically have a sensible adult style discussion with them and ask them to think about it all and take some responsibility for the situation. Follow this with a similar conversation with the parents and hopefully you can get a resolution. We all have these stagnant pupils from time to time and they are indeed very draining and dispiriting. Huge relief once they can move on...

Can you find some music these boys really want to learn: I find 12 year old boys like: James Bond, Harry Potter, the Chariots of Fire theme, Coldplay ..... etc. If you're doing exclusively scales and stuff from a tutor book they will probably be bored stiff. OK if they've only been playing 6 months they mght only be able to play a few bars, one-handed, taught aurally: you can accompany it with chords. Do the other stuff alongside, and hopefully you'll find they show interest. If not, then ditch them, I would!

Yes- when pupils drain you like this it is time to move them on.

From the description of their behaviour (yawning etc.) communication seems to be at a basic level and an 'adult' talk with the boys might be difficult.

The situation has to be brought to a head somehow however,and a clean break seems like the best option
(both for you and them).

Thanks for all the great suggestions/comments so far folks. Much appreciated

Have you challenged these young men about their attitude towards the piano directly.

They are at an awkward age. Real teen brain, and this might not be what they are thinking just how they are coming across. You never know they may really want to learn the piano and they're just at the 'I think I can get away with doing as little as possible' stage.

If that is the case. You need to pursuade them that does not work, and work with them to find some music they want to learn.

I've seen this before with boys, gentle herding with a stick behind them, they need a bit of a 'shove' in the right direction. They actually want to do things, it is all hormonal and a good teacher engages them and pushes them forward. (Not only to I teach this I parent this too!)

Can we assume their music reading skills are up to the level of their playing? The one who picks things up quickly in lessons but then returns like he's never seen the music before makes me wonder if he is struggling to read the music. Some students cover that extremely effectively with their aural skills in the lesson, or with the combination of the demo and the music in front on them they get it, but when they get home they cannot remember how it goes at all! They either then don't practice as they aren't sure what to do, or they practice making mistakes.

I'm afraid mine don't always get a demo, at least not in the first lesson of a new piece. Then I like to see what comes back next week.

Sorry. Off topic.

Mine almost never get a demo.

<Please imagine a chad drawing> Wot no demo?

Seriously demonstration is an important part of teaching. Unless I've staggered downstairs dosed to the nines and am "attempting to soldier on" complete with a migraine or in the post-drone stage, I can always demonstrate what I want, and will always demonstrate what I want.

This is another one of those 'professional qualities' where we can justify our fees, and that differentiate muisc teachers from Child minders.

Childminders are regulated by OFSTED and many have qualifications at NVQ levels 2, 3 and 4.

Music teachers are not regulated at all.

Childminders charge a pittance

Music teachers expect a professional fee.

When it comes to motivating lads of a certain age, understanding their psyche, lateral thinking and demonstration, to deserve that Professional fee, it is up to us to earn it.

Excuse me ? not earning my fee? I hope I am misreading this.

Yes, jod, but it's possible that these two teachers mean that they expect thier pupils to learn from sight, to first order, rather than by ear. I almost always demonstrate, and probably will even if I want them to sight-read first, because there's too much chance they'll learn something incorrectly and practise it. That's why I also video most of what I teach (or use YouTube videos) I'll soon know if they're just parroting, but often it's the ones who have tried to read, and don't watch the videos to check, who have difficulty learning the pieces properly.

Is the question of a teacher demo even relevant in the context of note-learning, considering the average pupil can find recordings or videos on YT of whatever they want? I don't think I've ever learned anything without listening to it first...

I think this may be straying off-topic by now...

However, maggiemay, mine don't usually get a "demo" either. Does that mean the likes of us are not worth our vast fees? Methinks not. We just teach in a different way. There is no "right" way... Thank goodness we are all different just as all our pupes are...

Bx

Indeed we teach in different ways. The ability to demonstrate is a prerequisite skill for instrumental teaching. There is nothing quite like seeing it done, particularly in these days where 'thou shalt not touch'

Virtual reality isn't quite the same thing.

Admittedly one may choose to let a pupil sight read first, but at some point, aa teacher will be required to demonstrate. It is one of the reasons I do not teach strings... I don't play them.

I rarely hear things before I'm well on the way with learning.


Mine don't regularly get a demo either. Depends on the student and the circumstances.
For those who are capable but would rather be spoon fed I make them have a go themselves first.



I don't think it's always necessary to demonstrate and not necessarily whole pieces though you may well mean that. I do think that some sort of demonstration is going to be a good idea at some point for most students but not as a matter of course.

I might play the odd snippet of a piece if we're working on a particular technique etc. (e.g. a place with tricky fingering), but very very rarely do I give a demo of the whole piece. To my mind it's not necessary - when the pupil's learnt the piece, they'll hear how it goes. The only real exceptions might be when we're choosing exam pieces where they might like to hear a selection before choosing. Another occasion might be a well-known piece which they've sight-read so badly they haven't recognised it I can think of quite a few pupils in the past who picked things up quickly by ear - if they'd got a demo of each piece it would simply have added to this reliance on the ear, rather the developing reading skills alongside.

Let's be clear that choosing not to give a 'demo' of a piece does not mean the teacher is incapable of playing/singing it.

Let's be clear about this.

I do demonstrate later on. But when a pupil has a new piece to learn, we rarely do more than a couple of lines (grade 1 - 3 standard), simply because they will have other work to do, and I like to give them a taste of the new piece. They will have played it through slowly, accurately and having clapped and discussed it first. If they come back having made a mess of it, then it is only a matter of 2 lines, usually hands separately that we have to rectify.

This doesn't apply to all pupils - some that I am aware of who need to see what my hands are doing get that treatment as well in the first lesson, but they will have read the music first themselves.

Apologies to OP for having started this off-topicness.

...which seems perfectly reasonable to me

The piece I am currently learning is approx 12 minutes long on a CD. I would have been very miffed if my teacher decided to take up 12 minutes of my lesson time to give me a demo of the whole piece. I know he can play the piece because he told me that he had won a competition playing it but I don't think he played any of it at all to me until I had been working on it for a couple of weeks and even then he played alongside me rather than to me.

A teacher wouldn't necessarily play the whole lot (unless there was time) and the amount the play depends on the level of the student. However the odd bar or two, or to inspire a pupil. Now that's different.

There must always be a purpose. It isn't spoon feeding, it is encouraging and inspiring.

I think when you're at the level of playing 12-minute pieces, it's a whole different ball-game. You should be able to decipher it yourself, even if you're stopping every bar or two and your teacher needs to help you just on that shrt section. But given that sight-reading tests in the lower grades are reckned to be about two grades lower thanj the pieces themselves, there must inevitable be many young pupils at grade 1-2 who do need to use demonstration as well as reading. Many children would never be able to learn a piece accurately by reading alone.

True but where possible I lean towards teaching them to decode what's on the page by breaking it down with only small amounts of demonstration. There are always exceptions to the rule of course and the fact that every student's need is different is what makes teaching interesting and keeps us on our toes.

(quote)
Many children would never be able to learn a piece accurately by reading alone.

I'm not sure. I want my pupils to be able to hear in their head what they want their fingers to play. Most of them, even at the early grades, learn by reading, with a bit of tweaking / patterning where reading doesn't quite work.

So do those who rarely demonstrate necessarily fall to inspire?

Picture this: You have a teacher who you view as a role model, and you want to learn a piece so badly that it hurts.

You bring the music to the lesson.

Your teacher performs it to you in your lesson and your view of your teacher is enhanced by their performance and they say,
" Sure, I think you are ready for that!".

That is inspirational. That makes you want to learn.

If your teacher dishes up a dogs dinner and clearly has no interest in the things you have, that is when you end up with dead wood.

This is why the ability to demonstrate and play and perform is important.

Not every teacher needs to be a Grade VIII + pianist, but they should at least be able to perform the pieces they are teaching, and willing to demonstrate.

I think you're arguing about two different things here.

You're suggesting the pupil does need to have the piece played to them in the lesson, but you seem to think that those who don't do so are not doing so because they can't. They're not.

They are saying they could show off their skill very well in the lesson but for various reasons - length of time if it's a long piece, wanting the pupil to try to work out at least some of it if it's a short piece.

I'm inclined to agree that apart from short pieces, the lesson is not the time for the whole piece to be demonstrated. I do often play about one or two lines fo a small selection of pieces if we're looking to choose an exam piece. Otherwise they just look to see how black the page is (ie, semiquavers) and choose the one that "looks" easiest. Sadly too many pupils when faced with grade X are really hoping you're going to give them the pieces in the ist that are really at a level of grade X-1 (or lower). They don't exist. So what did you like the sound of?

Ah, but Linda, do give the flavour you need to be able to play the piece and, unless I have the odd five minutes to fill (as a lesson has just panned out that way) the first 16-32 bars will normally suffice.

Of course you need to be able to, I don't think that's at issue, but rather whether or not it's desirable, sensible or indeed even good teaching, taken case by case.

I would sincerely hope that it is not only my performance skills that inspire pupils, but rather the way that I teach. Certainly that is what inspires me in my own lessons. If you have a teacher whom you view as a role model, you probably already have a good idea of their performance skills, and the fact that they play you a piece you desperately want to learn isn't likely to change your view. There has to be far more to a good teacher than performance.


I absolutely agree. To take just one case, my son's flute teacher very quickly picked up on his excellent ability to learn by ear having only heard a piece once. He was a lazy note-reader - able to do it but preferring not to bother - and so his teacher made a point of not playing a new piece through because it would stop him decoding it for himself.

Apologies for taking the thread even more off-topic but I have actually found it far more helpful when my teacher hasn't been able to instantly sight-read the unknown piece that I have produced in my lesson without warning him.

First of all, it is interesting to see where he has a problem (ie what sort of things are difficult for any oboist) but even more interesting is how he goes about overcoming the difficulty - he has always used a practice technique that he has already suggested I try in another context but I find it very instructive to watch him using it. It always works with him almost instantly (whereas I'll still be struggling weeks later) and it is a bit like one of those accelerated Blue Peter models:
"Here we have a problem"
"To solve it, you have to do X several times a day for the next month"
"This is what it sounds like now I've done all that practice"

I've witnessed my piano teacher doing that too...... you can go off some people.....