I have one student who is very dyslexic that I teach for theory and piano (30 mins each). I added the piano element as he was struggling to learn his notes theoretically, and it has helped somewhat. But he seems to struggle to sightread or sightsing. He can do it very slowly but often goes down instead of up etc. He also has problems reading the notes and often counts up or down with the letters backwards (ie counting up from C will try C B A etc instead of C D E)
I have another pupil who is a very slow reader for his age, at 8 he is still spelling out simple words - like the lyrics in the Alfreds books - and I wonder if he too is dyslexic. Parents haven't said anything but I think he may be. He seems to do the same mistakes.
Just wondering if there is a correlation or if they are just bad sight readers....anyone got any experience? All the other learners I have are quick to pick it up (Alfreds is great for that) and so I feel I need to take a different approach to help (and to give as much support as I can) if it's likely to be a from a underlying issue.
Thanks!
Dyslexia often shows itself as a difficulty in "holding on" to text long enough to make out what the words say, and is associated with right/left confusion too - thus what you describe, with up and down being muddled, and difficulty working out which note is what, would fit: certainly if the eight year old seems behind on what you might expect it'd at least be worth running past parents as an idea, because there is educational help which can make a difference at least for the reading problems. I have heard of coloured overlays helping too with music reading (apparently one needs to hunt around to find the right colour, but one of the dyslexia websites has its text on a pale yellow background as this is said to be the most likely to work). You're right though to imply that one can't necessarily assume that because dyslexia can show itself in difficulty with sightreading that the opposite is also true - those learning very readily by ear sometimes have difficulty with reading in the absence of dyslexia.
Dyslexic kids often do have problems with reading music (and also with some other aspects of processing information - they can have issues with aural work, coordination, organisation, the list goes on and on and is very variable)
I'd suggest you get hold of some books on the subject and read up on strategies to help.
Seehere
The ideas you get will help your other pupils too - you don't have to be dyslexic to benefit from them.
I've had one or two who behaved very much like dyslexics in as far as they had the sort of difficulties you describe with music, but were apparently fine with school work, so I think it can be quite music specific in some cases.
You could try photocopying music onto coloured paper as a first step - it helped one of mine quite a lot - reducing the contrast between the printed black score and the background was key. A lot of dyslexics use coloured overlays, and these work just as well for music - it is worth discussing what strategies your student uses with school work and seeing if you can apply these to music.
I'd suggest you get hold of some books on the subject and read up on strategies to help.
Seehere
The ideas you get will help your other pupils too - you don't have to be dyslexic to benefit from them.
I've had one or two who behaved very much like dyslexics in as far as they had the sort of difficulties you describe with music, but were apparently fine with school work, so I think it can be quite music specific in some cases.
You could try photocopying music onto coloured paper as a first step - it helped one of mine quite a lot - reducing the contrast between the printed black score and the background was key. A lot of dyslexics use coloured overlays, and these work just as well for music - it is worth discussing what strategies your student uses with school work and seeing if you can apply these to music.
Thanks. The 8 year old is in my son's class and there is a huge difference in their reading, this is what is making me wonder....I have 6 year old pupils that read far more fluently.
The older one is diagnosed dyslexic (got him through grade 2 theory last December
) and is working towards G3. I'll talk to him next week and see if they have tried overlays or anything else in school
Thanks...will do some research!
Dyslexia often shows itself as a difficulty in "holding on" to text long enough to make out what the words say, and is associated with right/left confusion too - thus what you describe, with up and down being muddled, and difficulty working out which note is what, would fit: certainly if the eight year old seems behind on what you might expect it'd at least be worth running past parents as an idea, because there is educational help which can make a difference at least for the reading problems. I have heard of coloured overlays helping too with music reading (apparently one needs to hunt around to find the right colour, but one of the dyslexia websites has its text on a pale yellow background as this is said to be the most likely to work). You're right though to imply that one can't necessarily assume that because dyslexia can show itself in difficulty with sightreading that the opposite is also true - those learning very readily by ear sometimes have difficulty with reading in the absence of dyslexia.
The younger one definately doesn't learn easily by ear. Older one yes - he's a singer firstly - and likes to mess around on the keyboard especially with chords. I think the singing obviously will have helped him with playing by ear.
The older one is diagnosed dyslexic (got him through grade 2 theory last December
) and is working towards G3. I'll talk to him next week and see if they have tried overlays or anything else in schoolThanks...will do some research!
QUOTE(anacrusis @ Feb 29 2012, 01:25 AM) 
Dyslexia often shows itself as a difficulty in "holding on" to text long enough to make out what the words say, and is associated with right/left confusion too - thus what you describe, with up and down being muddled, and difficulty working out which note is what, would fit: certainly if the eight year old seems behind on what you might expect it'd at least be worth running past parents as an idea, because there is educational help which can make a difference at least for the reading problems. I have heard of coloured overlays helping too with music reading (apparently one needs to hunt around to find the right colour, but one of the dyslexia websites has its text on a pale yellow background as this is said to be the most likely to work). You're right though to imply that one can't necessarily assume that because dyslexia can show itself in difficulty with sightreading that the opposite is also true - those learning very readily by ear sometimes have difficulty with reading in the absence of dyslexia.
The younger one definately doesn't learn easily by ear. Older one yes - he's a singer firstly - and likes to mess around on the keyboard especially with chords. I think the singing obviously will have helped him with playing by ear.
Both my daughters took some time to learn to sight-read; the elder one is dyslexic and the younger one is not. Their "non-sight-reading" stage was, however, very different. The dyslexic one wanted to read the music but couldn't fathom out how, the younger wasn't interested in the written music because she could play very well by ear and she didn't see the point in "wasting" time trying to read it. When the younger one finally decided that there might be some point in reading music, she seemed to learn to read almost over night without me, or her teacher, doing anything in particular. The elder one is now good at sight-reading but I taught her how to in a very systematic way.
Dyslexia does vary from one child to another so what I am going to say about my eldest is probably not true for everyone but what she finds hardest is naming the note. She plays the cello and can sight-read things in bass or tenor clef in all sorts of positions on the cello (and work out for herself which finger she is going to put down) but she is still hesitant if you ask her to simply read the note names out loud. In other words, I think she doesn't consciously name the note in her head but I don't know exactly what she does since she is capable of playing the same note in a variety of positions and on different strings so she is obviously not associating the dot on the page with a particular finger either.
She uses the French names (do, re, mi, fa ...) and has a lot of trouble saying this backwards. She doesn't confuse left and right but she does confuse up and down and visual gestures don't help her (she says, for example, that when a conductor is beating in 2, she can't tell which beat is which; in 3 or 4, she relies on the arm going out to the side to know where she is).
Coloured overlays do not help all dyslexic children they only help those with a specific syndrome (whose name I have forgotten) and my daughter is not one of them.
Sheila Oglethorpe's book is very good and I highly recommend it.
And finally, I think English schools are better at diagnosing things than French schools but I was convinced my daughter had a problem of some sort long before the school (who just put it down to her being bilingual) so even if there is no official diagnosis, it doesn't mean that the parents aren't aware of it.
Edit: 2childmum posted at the same time as me and I've just remembered that something else my daughter finds extremely hard to cope with is tails which go "the wrong way"; ie when you have quavers beamed together and some of the tails are the "wrong way" up so that they all go either up or down. This confuses her totally (although she is unable to say why). I had an oldfashioned book where the tails always go "the right way" (and so are joined by a diagonal line), I find this harder to read but my daughter loved it.
Dyslexia does vary from one child to another so what I am going to say about my eldest is probably not true for everyone but what she finds hardest is naming the note. She plays the cello and can sight-read things in bass or tenor clef in all sorts of positions on the cello (and work out for herself which finger she is going to put down) but she is still hesitant if you ask her to simply read the note names out loud. In other words, I think she doesn't consciously name the note in her head but I don't know exactly what she does since she is capable of playing the same note in a variety of positions and on different strings so she is obviously not associating the dot on the page with a particular finger either.
She uses the French names (do, re, mi, fa ...) and has a lot of trouble saying this backwards. She doesn't confuse left and right but she does confuse up and down and visual gestures don't help her (she says, for example, that when a conductor is beating in 2, she can't tell which beat is which; in 3 or 4, she relies on the arm going out to the side to know where she is).
Coloured overlays do not help all dyslexic children they only help those with a specific syndrome (whose name I have forgotten) and my daughter is not one of them.
Sheila Oglethorpe's book is very good and I highly recommend it.
And finally, I think English schools are better at diagnosing things than French schools but I was convinced my daughter had a problem of some sort long before the school (who just put it down to her being bilingual) so even if there is no official diagnosis, it doesn't mean that the parents aren't aware of it.
Edit: 2childmum posted at the same time as me and I've just remembered that something else my daughter finds extremely hard to cope with is tails which go "the wrong way"; ie when you have quavers beamed together and some of the tails are the "wrong way" up so that they all go either up or down. This confuses her totally (although she is unable to say why). I had an oldfashioned book where the tails always go "the right way" (and so are joined by a diagonal line), I find this harder to read but my daughter loved it.
My daughter has dyslexia and her main difficulty is slow processing so sight reading can be a problem because the information doesn't go into her brain, get processed, and a response sorted out in time to keep up with the music (I hope that makes sense!) She finds orchestra hard sometimes because she can't keep up with the speed.
The other thing she has struggled with ( and still does sometimes) is if there is too much info on the page (eg lots of bow markings and dynamics) and also if the music is printed too close together. We have in the past covered all the lines of music except the one she is learning, and also I sometimes have to enlarge music which is too dense for her.
Coloured overlays make no difference to my daughter - I think they help something like 40% of people with dyslexia.
The other thing she has struggled with ( and still does sometimes) is if there is too much info on the page (eg lots of bow markings and dynamics) and also if the music is printed too close together. We have in the past covered all the lines of music except the one she is learning, and also I sometimes have to enlarge music which is too dense for her.
Coloured overlays make no difference to my daughter - I think they help something like 40% of people with dyslexia.
I think there can be isolated up/down left/right problems without there being any dyslexia. Think of the followin:
1. What we take for granted as being up/down/high/low might not be quite so obvious to some people: faster vibrations aren't further off the ground, so they may not immediately scream "higher" to some listeners
2. Music runs from left to right across the page regardless of whether the pitch is going up or down. I have certainly had at least two pupils who had that trouble at first
3. When we think of the note below F we know it's "obviously" E. If you read a list in alphabetical order, F words (pardon!) will come below E words.
There are probably several more of these (what happens to the sound when a cellist slides his finger DOWN the string? down as in towards the floor, that is) but I think they're all mundane matters which we might take for granted and assume everyone else does
1. What we take for granted as being up/down/high/low might not be quite so obvious to some people: faster vibrations aren't further off the ground, so they may not immediately scream "higher" to some listeners
2. Music runs from left to right across the page regardless of whether the pitch is going up or down. I have certainly had at least two pupils who had that trouble at first
3. When we think of the note below F we know it's "obviously" E. If you read a list in alphabetical order, F words (pardon!) will come below E words.
There are probably several more of these (what happens to the sound when a cellist slides his finger DOWN the string? down as in towards the floor, that is) but I think they're all mundane matters which we might take for granted and assume everyone else does
QUOTE(anacrusis @ Feb 29 2012, 12:25 AM)
Dyslexia often shows itself as a difficulty in "holding on" to text long enough to make out what the words say, and is associated with right/left confusion too - thus what you describe, with up and down being muddled, and difficulty working out which note is what, would fit: certainly if the eight year old seems behind on what you might expect it'd at least be worth running past parents as an idea, because there is educational help which can make a difference at least for the reading problems. I have heard of coloured overlays helping too with music reading (apparently one needs to hunt around to find the right colour, but one of the dyslexia websites has its text on a pale yellow background as this is said to be the most likely to work). You're right though to imply that one can't necessarily assume that because dyslexia can show itself in difficulty with sightreading that the opposite is also true - those learning very readily by ear sometimes have difficulty with reading in the absence of dyslexia.
There will be some dyslexics who will have found ways around their SLD in order to sight read, and others that will be completely unable to.
It is therefore very important to listen to everything they say.
It is extremely frustrating for a dyslexic child or adult, because when they do have a problem eg. Left/Right confusion this is 100% genuine and all of the standard tricks non dyslexics use won't work.
This can lead to disruptive behaviour. Overlays can work, but they have to be the right colour for that individual. Pale green is often the most successful. Type faces using serifs are a disaster.
As anacrusis has said, one of the dyslexia websites uses a pale yellow background. Everything is then printed using Blue ink and in Comic Sans. Devices such as Text Boxes, Bullet Points, anything that orders information and forces the brain rather than over-stimulating it is useful.
However, you have made one huge and vital step already, you have acknowledged the difficulty and are prepared to work with the child to find a solution. That acknowledgement, and the feeling of self-worth this will give to your pupil is worth so much.
You will master this together. Good luck.
QUOTE(linda.ff @ Feb 29 2012, 10:41 AM)
I think there can be isolated up/down left/right problems without there being any dyslexia. Think of the followin:
1. What we take for granted as being up/down/high/low might not be quite so obvious to some people: faster vibrations aren't further off the ground, so they may not immediately scream "higher" to some listeners
2. Music runs from left to right across the page regardless of whether the pitch is going up or down. I have certainly had at least two pupils who had that trouble at first
3. When we think of the note below F we know it's "obviously" E. If you read a list in alphabetical order, F words (pardon!) will come below E words.
There are probably several more of these (what happens to the sound when a cellist slides his finger DOWN the string? down as in towards the floor, that is) but I think they're all mundane matters which we might take for granted and assume everyone else does
This is going to sound terribly unclear because I am not sure how to explain it. Dyslexic people have up/down left/right problems in a different way to non-dyslexic people, I think because their brain doesn't process information "the same way". My younger daughter had almost all the problems that Linda has listed but was clearly not dyslexic. She verbalised her confusion about left/right, high/low very differently to her elder dyslexic sister.
I also think that until you have had close contact with someone who is dyslexic, it is very hard to understand what the term actually means.
As a trainee teacher, are there particular things which can help with note-reading and learning for dyslexics? Or might help people who have 'sheet music' dyslexia at least?
The suggestion about coloured paper was an excellent one, but wouldn't work for everyone. I know there are different types of dyslexia as my sister has it, but not the 'can't read the words because they 'move around'' thing so paper/colour isn't an issue for her. Her problem is to do with processing the written words into understandable ideas...
Would love to know what other people have found as things to try to help dyslexics?
The suggestion about coloured paper was an excellent one, but wouldn't work for everyone. I know there are different types of dyslexia as my sister has it, but not the 'can't read the words because they 'move around'' thing so paper/colour isn't an issue for her. Her problem is to do with processing the written words into understandable ideas...
Would love to know what other people have found as things to try to help dyslexics?
One pupil of mine was diagnosed dyslexic and she had some short term memory difficulties which were associated with it. I wasn't aware of this until I entered her for an exam and was able to look through the assessment that the school had. Whether this is something that is associated with the dyslexia I am not sure, but we used to do lots of work on naming notes and progress generally was rather slower than average.
I am dyslexic.
I have what is called higher functioning cross-lateral dyslexia and it is complicated by migraine.
Due to the 'higher functioning' I usually work around it unless put on the spot then it is as clear as mud.
There is also the visual hyper-stimulation that makes some things easier to see than others,
Having said that, my note-reading is generally very good, and I'm a good sight-reader (I think the higher funtioning takes care of that). What it does mean is I see things as other dyslexics see things, or at least can appreciate the visual confusion.
It does not matter I have found a method that appears obvious to me to sort it out. There are always things that some people find easy and other people find hard.
Having had to learn to walk more than once due to Sporadic Hemi-plagic migraine, I don't take basic tasks for granted anymore.
If I can appreciate the visual confusion and just remember that moment when I'd forgotton how to walk, that is how a dyslexic feels when somebody tells them this is obvious and asks them why they can't do such a simple task.
As with every teaching task it is a case of thinking laterally and trying a number of suggested solutions calmly and patiently until 'the penny drops'.
It is also essential to drop all preconceived perceptions over how each person thinks, sees and will behave. Listen and Observe. If you always do what you always did, you always get what what you always got. If something is not working it is important to try a variety of strategies guided by what you are being told and what you see and hear until you hit upon the right one.
I have what is called higher functioning cross-lateral dyslexia and it is complicated by migraine.
Due to the 'higher functioning' I usually work around it unless put on the spot then it is as clear as mud.
There is also the visual hyper-stimulation that makes some things easier to see than others,
Having said that, my note-reading is generally very good, and I'm a good sight-reader (I think the higher funtioning takes care of that). What it does mean is I see things as other dyslexics see things, or at least can appreciate the visual confusion.
It does not matter I have found a method that appears obvious to me to sort it out. There are always things that some people find easy and other people find hard.
Having had to learn to walk more than once due to Sporadic Hemi-plagic migraine, I don't take basic tasks for granted anymore.
If I can appreciate the visual confusion and just remember that moment when I'd forgotton how to walk, that is how a dyslexic feels when somebody tells them this is obvious and asks them why they can't do such a simple task.
As with every teaching task it is a case of thinking laterally and trying a number of suggested solutions calmly and patiently until 'the penny drops'.
It is also essential to drop all preconceived perceptions over how each person thinks, sees and will behave. Listen and Observe. If you always do what you always did, you always get what what you always got. If something is not working it is important to try a variety of strategies guided by what you are being told and what you see and hear until you hit upon the right one.
Well I asked the younger one's Dad today, he has been tested for Dyslexia but doesn't have it. Apparently he just doesn't see the worth in reading.... 
so I shall make a point of reading the lyrics "for rhythm practice" but with an ulterior motive!! 
so I shall make a point of reading the lyrics "for rhythm practice" but with an ulterior motive!!
QUOTE(Sunrise @ Mar 2 2012, 08:42 PM)
Well I asked the younger one's Dad today, he has been tested for Dyslexia but doesn't have it. Apparently he just doesn't see the worth in reading....
so I shall make a point of reading the lyrics "for rhythm practice" but with an ulterior motive!! That's worth knowing. Believe me for all of your sakes it better that way around ( the kid will see the point eventually)
QUOTE(Sunrise @ Feb 29 2012, 12:00 AM)
I have another pupil who is a very slow reader for his age, at 8 he is still spelling out simple words - like the lyrics in the Alfreds books - and I wonder if he too is dyslexic. Parents haven't said anything but I think he may be. He seems to do the same mistakes.
I know I'm putting the cat amongst the pigeons here
but given the run of recent threads on special needs of various kinds, I do wonder whether so often, we've simply lost the ability to accept that all children are different, learn in different ways and learn at different speeds? Don't get me wrong, of course these special needs exist, I'm not saying they don't. Maybe I'm just out of touch, but when I get a pupil who struggles with a particular area (sight-reading, note-reading etc.), my immediate reaction isn't "I wonder if they've got dyslexia?" (substitute as required). My immediate thoughts are probably more centred around what can I do, as the teacher, to help them improve in these areas (in other words, I look at myself and my teaching first, not the pupil's inability). In the end, everyone learns in different ways, and inevitably, some will be better at some things than other things - it is this rich diversity which, to me, makes educational communities so exciting.
In my 11 years teaching, I haven't taught any pupils who've knowingly had special needs (or at least, I've not be told if they have). Given recent threads, that seems to me to be highly unusual. In the end, I'm a music teacher - I'm not an educational psychologist and I'm not a medical professional trained to recognise and respond to special needs. Obviously, if I'm made aware that a pupil has special needs, then that's a different kettle of fish entirely, and adjustments can be made to respond to those.
I really do question where you draw the line as a teacher (especially one outside of the school scenario) - I see my job as to respond to the individual needs of each and every of my pupils, whatever those needs might be - to get into a situation of suggesting to parents that because a child is struggling with a particular thing they might have special needs is another ball game entirely, and one in which I'd be extremely cautious (I've seen several threads recently in which some members have been effectively 'diagnosing' special needs in pupils of other teachers!). I know this is probably an unpopular view, but to my mind, it has become far too easy to label these days. This isn't in any way 'getting' at the OP, but merely offering a different, albeit probably unpopular, viewpoint.
Seems to me that 's an excellent post, and a refreshing viewpoint, SG.
Well said.
Well said.
QUOTE(Susie @ Mar 2 2012, 07:16 PM)
One pupil of mine was diagnosed dyslexic and she had some short term memory difficulties which were associated with it. I wasn't aware of this until I entered her for an exam and was able to look through the assessment that the school had. Whether this is something that is associated with the dyslexia I am not sure, but we used to do lots of work on naming notes and progress generally was rather slower than average.
Very short term memory (sometimes called "processing memory" is often a problem). If this is the case, it is usually helpful to repeat instructions using exactly the same words rather than trying to explain them in a different way.
QUOTE(Seer_Green @ Mar 2 2012, 10:22 PM)
I know I'm putting the cat amongst the pigeons here
but given the run of recent threads on special needs of various kinds, I do wonder whether so often, we've simply lost the ability to accept that all children are different, learn in different ways and learn at different speeds? Don't get me wrong, of course these special needs exist, I'm not saying they don't. Maybe I'm just out of touch, but when I get a pupil who struggles with a particular area (sight-reading, note-reading etc.), my immediate reaction isn't "I wonder if they've got dyslexia?" (substitute as required). My immediate thoughts are probably more centred around what can I do, as the teacher, to help them improve in these areas (in other words, I look at myself and my teaching first, not the pupil's inability). In the end, everyone learns in different ways, and inevitably, some will be better at some things than other things - it is this rich diversity which, to me, makes educational communities so exciting.
I think you are partially right. A "label" is helpful in a classroom situation where everyone is expected to follow the same path. In individual lessons, it ought to be possible to adapt the teaching to the pupil but it does depend on the teacher. I have never told my daughter's cello teacher that she is dyslexic because neither I nor my daughter have ever felt the need to. I have, on the other hand, told her trombone teacher (and given him a precise list of what she finds difficult) because he accuses her of "not trying" and my daughter was finding the lessons quite stressful. However, telling him hasn't changed his teaching methods - he still thinks she is the "problem" and that it is up to her to adapt to him.
I agree with Seer Green; I have a very similar experience and view and have been pretty horrified by some of the things written in this forum on this subject.
Absolutely well said, SG. Particularly relevant when teaching one to one out of a school context where you're much more able to cater to individual needs - be they diagnosed SEN or just differing needs for whatever reason. Your second paragraph in particular sums it up perfectly. Your post makes an awful lot of sense!
QUOTE(Maria @ Mar 2 2012, 09:41 PM)
Absolutely well said, SG. Particularly relevant when teaching one to one out of a school context where you're much more able to cater to individual needs - be they diagnosed SEN or just differing needs for whatever reason. Your second paragraph in particular sums it up perfectly. Your post makes an awful lot of sense!
When you have the luxury of teaching one to one, EVERYONE is "special needs".
QUOTE(maggiemay @ Mar 2 2012, 09:26 PM)
Seems to me that 's an excellent post, and a refreshing viewpoint, SG.
Well said.
QUOTE(ma non troppo @ Mar 2 2012, 09:38 PM)
I agree with Seer Green; I have a very similar experience and view and have been pretty horrified by some of the things written in this forum on this subject.
QUOTE(ma non troppo @ Mar 2 2012, 09:48 PM)
When you have the luxury of teaching one to one, EVERYONE is "special needs".
(except that I think this holds true in class/group situations as well.)
QUOTE(Seer_Green @ Mar 2 2012, 09:22 PM)
QUOTE(Sunrise @ Feb 29 2012, 12:00 AM)
I have another pupil who is a very slow reader for his age, at 8 he is still spelling out simple words - like the lyrics in the Alfreds books - and I wonder if he too is dyslexic. Parents haven't said anything but I think he may be. He seems to do the same mistakes.
I know I'm putting the cat amongst the pigeons here
but given the run of recent threads on special needs of various kinds, I do wonder whether so often, we've simply lost the ability to accept that all children are different, learn in different ways and learn at different speeds? Don't get me wrong, of course these special needs exist, I'm not saying they don't. Maybe I'm just out of touch, but when I get a pupil who struggles with a particular area (sight-reading, note-reading etc.), my immediate reaction isn't "I wonder if they've got dyslexia?" (substitute as required). My immediate thoughts are probably more centred around what can I do, as the teacher, to help them improve in these areas (in other words, I look at myself and my teaching first, not the pupil's inability). In the end, everyone learns in different ways, and inevitably, some will be better at some things than other things - it is this rich diversity which, to me, makes educational communities so exciting.
In my 11 years teaching, I haven't taught any pupils who've knowingly had special needs (or at least, I've not be told if they have). Given recent threads, that seems to me to be highly unusual. In the end, I'm a music teacher - I'm not an educational psychologist and I'm not a medical professional trained to recognise and respond to special needs. Obviously, if I'm made aware that a pupil has special needs, then that's a different kettle of fish entirely, and adjustments can be made to respond to those.
I really do question where you draw the line as a teacher (especially one outside of the school scenario) - I see my job as to respond to the individual needs of each and every of my pupils, whatever those needs might be - to get into a situation of suggesting to parents that because a child is struggling with a particular thing they might have special needs is another ball game entirely, and one in which I'd be extremely cautious (I've seen several threads recently in which some members have been effectively 'diagnosing' special needs in pupils of other teachers!). I know this is probably an unpopular view, but to my mind, it has become far too easy to label these days. This isn't in any way 'getting' at the OP, but merely offering a different, albeit probably unpopular, viewpoint.
Thanks for this Seer Green. Sums up my thoughts exactly.
On many occasions a simple question on the forum develops somehow into a complex discussion of 'special needs'
(not necessarily this thread by the way)
QUOTE(ma non troppo @ Mar 2 2012, 09:48 PM)
QUOTE(Maria @ Mar 2 2012, 09:41 PM)
Absolutely well said, SG. Particularly relevant when teaching one to one out of a school context where you're much more able to cater to individual needs - be they diagnosed SEN or just differing needs for whatever reason. Your second paragraph in particular sums it up perfectly. Your post makes an awful lot of sense!
When you have the luxury of teaching one to one, EVERYONE is "special needs".
I agree with Seer Green. I have been approached by 2 different families who each told me their child had dyslexia. I simply said we would see how things went and in fact neither pupil had difficulties reading music so clearly their particular dyslexia didn't relate to reading music.
In addition, yes - everyone has their own individual needs, and time was, I believe, when SEN also incorporated those who were exceptionally academically able too. And isn't it a privilege (on the whole) to be able to teach one to one and tailor everything to the individual.
Teaching one to one gives us the insight into one aspect of a pupil for 30 minutes a week, and over a period of time it can highlight a point that needs to be raised with a parent, but only after considerable thought.
I think that Seer Green's viewpoint is the only responsible one for a non-SEN teacher....most of what we can do as non-SEN teachers falls under good teaching practice rather than needs-specific intervention or accommodation. That said, good teaching practice can do a lot (and it helps ALL our students), and I for one can't assume that my day-to-day teaching really IS good teaching practice, and that I don't need to change!
I don't worry too much when people say "I wonder if s/he is dyslexic", because I assume it's mostly shorthand for "I wonder if dyslexia-oriented stategies would help this person", rather than an amateur diagnosis. And since such strategies help a wide range of students, bring 'em on, I say.
That said, things like coloured overlays/coloured sheets always seem to be the first thing mentioned, maybe because it is "different" enough to be memorable, yet requires little work from teachers!
More boring strategies such as checking horizontal/vertical space have been more useful for my students (reading, not music). Reading fluently requires a "ribbon" of text that moves clearly from left to right. Simply enlarging text or music can create a kind of "grid", making it hard to tell whether the "next" item is horizontal or vertical. The letters (and notes) should be big enough to see clearly, but the space between grand staves must be clear and much bigger than the space between treble and bass staff.
You may not even need to enlarge music - try copying it and cutting between each each line of grand staff music and sticking them (more widely separated) onto a piece of cartridge paper, maybe experimenting with a lightly colored or grey background.
If the space between staff lines and the horizontal space between notes looks a bit grid-like, a colored highlighter running through the A or C space on each staff may help. (Lyrics written between staves can create a kind of text/ledger line visual soup, so you could try running the highlighter through the lyrics if need be, or whiting them out if they are not needed)...it did help my son, who may or may not be dyslexic, but who certainly had some trouble reading music fluently. Learning to recognize intervals clearly, and diligent sightsinging before playing, were the biggest help in the end, though.
Also...if you take a look at children's books, you will see that most early chapter books are small, so a whole line of text is half the length of a typical line of music. Kids who don't read chapter books are probably seeing text in even smaller chunks. Even if they are reading music, it will take their eyes/brains a while to learn to scan a full line of music smoothly, and track back to the left without skipping a line! Nothing but putting in the hours will get them there though, so "spot the difference" homework may be useful? (That is, 3-6 identical lines of music, with one or more differences in one of the lines...). With notation software, it should be easy to use pieces they are currently playing, too.
There is also a Whurr book on Dyslexia and Music, forget the exact title sorry. Again, a lot of the advice in that is useful for all students, especially younger students.
I don't worry too much when people say "I wonder if s/he is dyslexic", because I assume it's mostly shorthand for "I wonder if dyslexia-oriented stategies would help this person", rather than an amateur diagnosis. And since such strategies help a wide range of students, bring 'em on, I say.
That said, things like coloured overlays/coloured sheets always seem to be the first thing mentioned, maybe because it is "different" enough to be memorable, yet requires little work from teachers!
More boring strategies such as checking horizontal/vertical space have been more useful for my students (reading, not music). Reading fluently requires a "ribbon" of text that moves clearly from left to right. Simply enlarging text or music can create a kind of "grid", making it hard to tell whether the "next" item is horizontal or vertical. The letters (and notes) should be big enough to see clearly, but the space between grand staves must be clear and much bigger than the space between treble and bass staff.
You may not even need to enlarge music - try copying it and cutting between each each line of grand staff music and sticking them (more widely separated) onto a piece of cartridge paper, maybe experimenting with a lightly colored or grey background.
If the space between staff lines and the horizontal space between notes looks a bit grid-like, a colored highlighter running through the A or C space on each staff may help. (Lyrics written between staves can create a kind of text/ledger line visual soup, so you could try running the highlighter through the lyrics if need be, or whiting them out if they are not needed)...it did help my son, who may or may not be dyslexic, but who certainly had some trouble reading music fluently. Learning to recognize intervals clearly, and diligent sightsinging before playing, were the biggest help in the end, though.
Also...if you take a look at children's books, you will see that most early chapter books are small, so a whole line of text is half the length of a typical line of music. Kids who don't read chapter books are probably seeing text in even smaller chunks. Even if they are reading music, it will take their eyes/brains a while to learn to scan a full line of music smoothly, and track back to the left without skipping a line! Nothing but putting in the hours will get them there though, so "spot the difference" homework may be useful? (That is, 3-6 identical lines of music, with one or more differences in one of the lines...). With notation software, it should be easy to use pieces they are currently playing, too.
There is also a Whurr book on Dyslexia and Music, forget the exact title sorry. Again, a lot of the advice in that is useful for all students, especially younger students.
I agree to a point....but the fact that he has been tested at least shows I wasn't wrong in realising that he is struggling with reading....I felt like I could approach his parents lightheartedly as he is a good friend of my sons, in his class, lives where we live, and not just a pupil. His dad didn't mind me asking either - his elder brother IS dyslexic (hence why they had him checked when he was struggling).
But I do agree that all 1-2-1 teaching is effectively special needs teaching. Tailored to the individual and supporting them in exactly what they need to succeed. And in that vein, yes, it doesn't matter.
What I would say is that if a pupil is struggling that much, (and he is reading at about 2 years under his age) then surely it is better to gently broach a subject that, if no one has spotted it, could really help them for the rest of their schooldays? Of course, depending on your relationship with the child and the parent?
But I do agree that all 1-2-1 teaching is effectively special needs teaching. Tailored to the individual and supporting them in exactly what they need to succeed. And in that vein, yes, it doesn't matter.
What I would say is that if a pupil is struggling that much, (and he is reading at about 2 years under his age) then surely it is better to gently broach a subject that, if no one has spotted it, could really help them for the rest of their schooldays? Of course, depending on your relationship with the child and the parent?
QUOTE(Sunrise @ Mar 3 2012, 09:02 AM)
What I would say is that if a pupil is struggling that much, (and he is reading at about 2 years under his age) then surely it is better to gently broach a subject that, if no one has spotted it, could really help them for the rest of their schooldays? Of course, depending on your relationship with the child and the parent?
I would have thought it highly unlikely that parents wouldn't have noticed their child has a problem of some sort - after all they live with the child every day (and have done for some years
) and those children who have music lessons are those children whose parents are interested in what their children are doing, otherwise they wouldn't be paying for music lessons.I also don't think that just knowing that your pupil is dyslexic (or whatever) is any use at all - it varies too much from one individual to another - what would be useful to know is what particular strategies help that particular child. As I have already said, coloured overlays, for example, do not automatically help all dyslexics.
QUOTE(Roseau @ Mar 3 2012, 08:50 AM)
QUOTE(Sunrise @ Mar 3 2012, 09:02 AM)
What I would say is that if a pupil is struggling that much, (and he is reading at about 2 years under his age) then surely it is better to gently broach a subject that, if no one has spotted it, could really help them for the rest of their schooldays? Of course, depending on your relationship with the child and the parent?
I would have thought it highly unlikely that parents wouldn't have noticed their child has a problem of some sort - after all they live with the child every day (and have done for some years
) and those children who have music lessons are those children whose parents are interested in what their children are doing, otherwise they wouldn't be paying for music lessons.I also don't think that just knowing that your pupil is dyslexic (or whatever) is any use at all - it varies too much from one individual to another - what would be useful to know is what particular strategies help that particular child. As I have already said, coloured overlays, for example, do not automatically help all dyslexics.
It's likely that it would have already been spotted, though. His parents may already be aware or he may be being looked at by teachers at school. As you say, depending on your relationship with the parents it may be worth a chat, but I'd say it's unlikely that it hasn't been broached already if he is so significantly performing below expectation. I don't think you were wrong at all, though, to pick up on it.
We have a wide range of strategies for dyslexic students at school. We are fortunate to have an excellent SEN dept who give us details of all SEN pupils in school and personally tailored strategies to help them. But, as you say Roseau, these strategies vary from pupil to pupil, even when they have the same SEN. So while it's useful, as a private teacher, to know if a child has dyslexia, I agree with Roseau that it's more helpful to know what strategies work with the individual child - which, again, goes back to SG's point about working with the individual anyway.
QUOTE(Roseau @ Mar 3 2012, 09:50 AM)
I also don't think that just knowing that your pupil is dyslexic (or whatever) is any use at all - it varies too much from one individual to another - what would be useful to know is what particular strategies help that particular child. As I have already said, coloured overlays, for example, do not automatically help all dyslexics.
Except that they can get extra time in ABRSM theory exams, which helps alot if their processing time is slow?
QUOTE(Sunrise @ Mar 3 2012, 10:08 AM)
QUOTE(Roseau @ Mar 3 2012, 09:50 AM)
I also don't think that just knowing that your pupil is dyslexic (or whatever) is any use at all - it varies too much from one individual to another - what would be useful to know is what particular strategies help that particular child. As I have already said, coloured overlays, for example, do not automatically help all dyslexics.
Except that they can get extra time in ABRSM theory exams, which helps alot if their processing time is slow?
Yes but apart from the "blanket" extra time (which applies to all students with a handicap, including, for example, blind students), depending on their statement they may or may not be entitled to other things as well. And just having extra time in itself is not that helpful - they need to be taught strategies for dealing with the task in hand as it is these strategies (once they have been mastered) which take up the extra time. Paradoxically some dyslexic pupils are so worried about running out of time that they always finish before everyone else but do so having misread all the questions.
And the "extra time" in a theory exam is not really relevant to weekly lessons.
QUOTE(Sunrise @ Mar 3 2012, 08:02 AM)
But I do agree that all 1-2-1 teaching is effectively special needs teaching. Tailored to the individual and supporting them in exactly what they need to succeed.
I think we need to be quite careful of this: certainly, everyone has their own individual needs (including adult pupils too), but the term 'special needs' is used (possibly quite wrongly) to describe somone who has a 'condition' for want of a better term (i.e. they have something 'wrong' with them). Personally, I would not want to be describing my teaching as 'special needs teaching' because of the connotations that term now has. My teaching philosophy states that 'Being aware of their [the pupils] capabilities, their needs and their past experiences, teaching builds on their interests in a collaborative and mutually supportive way' - I would be happy to leave it at that.
There have been a number of threads where pupils have been described as 'dead wood' or behaving so badly that the teacher wants to sack them.
The possibilty of SEN or hormones does not appear to cross the OPs mind.
As a teacher who takes other teachers rejects, many of whom have statements of SEN, I will draw this possibity to the attention of teachers who may not have asked that question. That is all.
The possibilty of SEN or hormones does not appear to cross the OPs mind.
As a teacher who takes other teachers rejects, many of whom have statements of SEN, I will draw this possibity to the attention of teachers who may not have asked that question. That is all.
QUOTE(Seer_Green @ Mar 3 2012, 11:00 AM)
QUOTE(Sunrise @ Mar 3 2012, 08:02 AM)
But I do agree that all 1-2-1 teaching is effectively special needs teaching. Tailored to the individual and supporting them in exactly what they need to succeed.
I think we need to be quite careful of this: certainly, everyone has their own individual needs (including adult pupils too), but the term 'special needs' is used (possibly quite wrongly) to describe somone who has a 'condition' for want of a better term (i.e. they have something 'wrong' with them). Personally, I would not want to be describing my teaching as 'special needs teaching' because of the connotations that term now has. My teaching philosophy states that 'Being aware of their [the pupils] capabilities, their needs and their past experiences, teaching builds on their interests in a collaborative and mutually supportive way' - I would be happy to leave it at that.
Agreed - I used the wrong term...every one is different, and yes, it's teaching to an individual's strengths and weaknesses.
QUOTE(jod @ Mar 3 2012, 10:08 AM)
There have been a number of threads where pupils have been described as 'dead wood' or behaving so badly that the teacher wants to sack them.
The possibilty of SEN or hormones does not appear to cross the OPs mind.
As a teacher who takes other teachers rejects, many of whom have statements of SEN, I will draw this possibity to the attention of teachers who may not have asked that question. That is all.
The OP here said nothing derogatory about her pupil whatsoever. She's simply asked for a bit of advice which has prompted a healthy discussion.
Re-read the posts. No-one is suggesting that they don't want to teach pupils with SEN. Many are simply expressing a concern that there is a tendency on here to jump to the conclusion that anyone who is struggling a bit with lessons - which could be for a variety of reasons - has SEN.
QUOTE(Maria @ Mar 3 2012, 10:29 AM)
Re-read the posts. No-one is suggesting that they don't want to teach pupils with SEN. Many are simply expressing a concern that there is a tendency on here to jump to the conclusion that anyone who is struggling a bit with lessons - which could be for a variety of reasons - has SEN.
It is quite wrong to get into a situation where every time there is a glimmer of a pupil finding something tricky, we immediately start shouting SEN, SEN, SEN... If you're a teacher who is an SEN specialist in another area, then that's possibly a different scenario, but for most of us that isn't the case. I'm engaged to teach an instrument, not to diagnose SEN problems.
QUOTE(Seer_Green @ Mar 3 2012, 10:36 AM)
QUOTE(Maria @ Mar 3 2012, 10:29 AM)
Re-read the posts. No-one is suggesting that they don't want to teach pupils with SEN. Many are simply expressing a concern that there is a tendency on here to jump to the conclusion that anyone who is struggling a bit with lessons - which could be for a variety of reasons - has SEN.
It is quite wrong to get into a situation where every time there is a glimmer of a pupil finding something tricky, we immediately start shouting SEN, SEN, SEN... If you're a teacher who is an SEN specialist in another area, then that's possibly a different scenario, but for most of us that isn't the case. I'm engaged to teach an instrument, not to diagnose SEN problems.
I agree too. Some pupils will find a particular aspect of learning difficult and it's the teacher's role to try different ways of helping them work through whatever it is and find different ways to approach it. People think differently and work/learn in different ways - it's important to find the key or several different keys to helping them break through.
QUOTE(Louise H @ Mar 3 2012, 12:00 PM)
QUOTE(Seer_Green @ Mar 3 2012, 10:36 AM)
QUOTE(Maria @ Mar 3 2012, 10:29 AM)
Re-read the posts. No-one is suggesting that they don't want to teach pupils with SEN. Many are simply expressing a concern that there is a tendency on here to jump to the conclusion that anyone who is struggling a bit with lessons - which could be for a variety of reasons - has SEN.
It is quite wrong to get into a situation where every time there is a glimmer of a pupil finding something tricky, we immediately start shouting SEN, SEN, SEN... If you're a teacher who is an SEN specialist in another area, then that's possibly a different scenario, but for most of us that isn't the case. I'm engaged to teach an instrument, not to diagnose SEN problems.
I agree too. Some pupils will find a particular aspect of learning difficult and it's the teacher's role to try different ways of helping them work through whatever it is and find different ways to approach it. People think differently and work/learn in different ways - it's important to find the key or several different keys to helping them break through.
Absolutely! I just knew that he was having similar problems to my dyslexic pupil and wondered if they were possibly linked. I know the child very well, he often comes to play at our house so I know there isn't anything behavioural there (he often behaves better than my one!!)...that is not what I asked.
QUOTE(Sunrise @ Mar 3 2012, 11:56 AM)
QUOTE(Louise H @ Mar 3 2012, 12:00 PM)
QUOTE(Seer_Green @ Mar 3 2012, 10:36 AM)
QUOTE(Maria @ Mar 3 2012, 10:29 AM)
Re-read the posts. No-one is suggesting that they don't want to teach pupils with SEN. Many are simply expressing a concern that there is a tendency on here to jump to the conclusion that anyone who is struggling a bit with lessons - which could be for a variety of reasons - has SEN.
It is quite wrong to get into a situation where every time there is a glimmer of a pupil finding something tricky, we immediately start shouting SEN, SEN, SEN... If you're a teacher who is an SEN specialist in another area, then that's possibly a different scenario, but for most of us that isn't the case. I'm engaged to teach an instrument, not to diagnose SEN problems.
I agree too. Some pupils will find a particular aspect of learning difficult and it's the teacher's role to try different ways of helping them work through whatever it is and find different ways to approach it. People think differently and work/learn in different ways - it's important to find the key or several different keys to helping them break through.
Absolutely! I just knew that he was having similar problems to my dyslexic pupil and wondered if they were possibly linked. I know the child very well, he often comes to play at our house so I know there isn't anything behavioural there (he often behaves better than my one!!)...that is not what I asked.
I know you didn't. I'm glad you have things sorted.
There was nothing wrong in asking the question, and I'm sure the father would have had no problems with you asking given your role.
I have asked parents about the last time they had their children's sight checked based on how they were behaving in a music lesson only to find the pupil sporting a brand new pair of spectacles by the next lesson.
It isn't a case of being obsessed it is a case of illiminated causes of behaviour and difficulties that are outside routine obtuse behaviour.
There is nothing more frustrating as a child than having a real problem and being accused of 'just being naughty' or worse, where the correct intervention would make your life so much easier.
As adults we do need to be aware of that, be aware of the emotional impact that negative labelling has, and treat children with the respect they deserve. Especially if we are in the education business.
Also do remember the Gifted and Talented child is also a Special Educational Need, it is not all about Specific Learning Difficulties.
I suppose being a teacher who deals with children from the spectrum, being in the spectrum myself and being a mother to children in the spectrum I am acutely aware about what happens when things go wrong as I do hear the horror stories. I am there with the tissues when somebody labels another mother's child as 'unteachable' and I have to pick up the pieces of the heartache, then the question comes, can you teach him/her? The answer is always yes. I always find a way. I don't give up on people because I keep thinking that at the end of the day, that child could be mine, and I remember the tears.
I do teach children and adults who count as mainstream too. However, as I don't turn people away because they might be awkward customers. If they are a challenge it is my job to find the route in. I'll loose some. There will be some who really can't be bothered. The can't be bothered set are in the minority. My job is to inspire and enthuse. To pass on the skills those who set that seed of inspiration in me and gave me that opportunity to another set of people. Put like that it is very humbling, but so worthwhile.
I would agree with Seer_Green about his first long post, as it happens - though the point of mentioning SEN at all comes when a teacher is struggling to find the right strategy for a pupil. I must admit, when a teacher, especially one saying they have experience but don't know what to do with this case, comes to the forum with a problem, I'm generally assuming they've covered the obvious and the basics already, and found they can't get round the difficulty with this particular pupil. Perhaps that is a wrong assumption, I don't know.
So what is the point of mentioning SEN at all, if it's wrong to jump to it as a first conclusion? It's because the SEN teaching situation requires extraordinary approaches, quite possibly in addition to, but sometimes instead of, standard ones which should be in most teachers' repertoires already. In the case of a previously-mentioned bit of poor behaviour from a child, a teacher was asking for advice, and by and large the contributions covered standard stuff: I'd spotted two clues in the original story which set off warning bells in my mind, and chose to think a bit beyond that standard stuff.
Why do I care? You'll probably have guessed there'll be a reason for this being closer to my heart than just a pure professional interest: I've had permission from my son to talk about it, indeed he wants his story to be heard, and he's just about to hit eighteen years of age. He's always been a lateral thinker, very bright, very articulate, but struggled to write things down, and over the years his difficulty became more and more marked. His big skill is computing, but he's also musical: at eleven he developed diabetes, and for years we were putting his concentration difficulties down to blood sugar levels being all over the shop, as often happens in teenagers with the condition. He's also like his father, a bit ditsy: in conversation both of them would jump from topic to topic, and holding a thread with them is not easy.
At fifteen, he dropped out of school, started refusing to go, and the problem got worse and worse til he stopped. Every strategy suggested was tried - be nice to him, be nasty, take away the computer, remove privileges, reward the good behaviours, all the stuff everyone suggests for bad behaviour on here too - none of it worked, and for a year and a half we wore ourselves ragged, getting up earlier and earlier to start the job of trying to get him to school. If he did go, he didn't write anything down - mostly he sat and doodled, but would get bolshie if teachers got heavy on him, and instead of leaving him alone, some of them began to humiliate him in various ways. Eventually he left school, that year early, and went to college, where, treated as an adult, he completed a years' course with flying colours, then embarked on an HNC one...where there were written assignments, and failed. At this point a tutor said, get him assessed, there's a problem: and there is: he has the inattention form of Attention Deficit Disorder. At this point I can see all the traditionalists curling their upper lips and going fffft.... but note, it's a learning disorder, there's a treatment, it needs different management from standard strategies, and this lad's education landed up in tatters because it wasn't spotted. I didn't spot it because I lived with it every day, and anyway, his dad's like that, so it's normal, isn't it? School didn't spot it because they were focused on the problem of an Inconvenient Child. My extended family on both sides was on at me about my parenting skills, or apparent lack of them, unable to see that the other child is jumping through all the educational hoops "correctly".
My son has probably in large part educated himself, and benefited most from the approach I had of opportunistic learning at home, with my two - if they asked a question, we'd investigate together: we made things together too. He's built his own computer, is exceedingly skilled with computer graphics, and at sixteen joined a group of other likeminded souls met over the internet, developing a video editing programme together. He's been to a couple of expenses-paid conferences in the US on the back of that too. The consultant assessing him says that had it not been for his intelligence, and for the support he got from home, his outlook and general situation would have been pretty poor - he's managed to compensate for his difficulties, but it's not been straightforward for any of us.
So - okay, maybe don't jump to SEN as the first port of call, but actually, that doesn't exonerate any of us from a need to keep it in mind. It's not that rare, it's often missed, and above all, it needs different approaches to get things right for that child: besides which, as someone has already said, individualisation of approach is a luxury the one-to-one teacher enjoys: or should enjoy. Otherwise, in my mind, it's questionable as to whether they should be teaching.
So what is the point of mentioning SEN at all, if it's wrong to jump to it as a first conclusion? It's because the SEN teaching situation requires extraordinary approaches, quite possibly in addition to, but sometimes instead of, standard ones which should be in most teachers' repertoires already. In the case of a previously-mentioned bit of poor behaviour from a child, a teacher was asking for advice, and by and large the contributions covered standard stuff: I'd spotted two clues in the original story which set off warning bells in my mind, and chose to think a bit beyond that standard stuff.
Why do I care? You'll probably have guessed there'll be a reason for this being closer to my heart than just a pure professional interest: I've had permission from my son to talk about it, indeed he wants his story to be heard, and he's just about to hit eighteen years of age. He's always been a lateral thinker, very bright, very articulate, but struggled to write things down, and over the years his difficulty became more and more marked. His big skill is computing, but he's also musical: at eleven he developed diabetes, and for years we were putting his concentration difficulties down to blood sugar levels being all over the shop, as often happens in teenagers with the condition. He's also like his father, a bit ditsy: in conversation both of them would jump from topic to topic, and holding a thread with them is not easy.
At fifteen, he dropped out of school, started refusing to go, and the problem got worse and worse til he stopped. Every strategy suggested was tried - be nice to him, be nasty, take away the computer, remove privileges, reward the good behaviours, all the stuff everyone suggests for bad behaviour on here too - none of it worked, and for a year and a half we wore ourselves ragged, getting up earlier and earlier to start the job of trying to get him to school. If he did go, he didn't write anything down - mostly he sat and doodled, but would get bolshie if teachers got heavy on him, and instead of leaving him alone, some of them began to humiliate him in various ways. Eventually he left school, that year early, and went to college, where, treated as an adult, he completed a years' course with flying colours, then embarked on an HNC one...where there were written assignments, and failed. At this point a tutor said, get him assessed, there's a problem: and there is: he has the inattention form of Attention Deficit Disorder. At this point I can see all the traditionalists curling their upper lips and going fffft.... but note, it's a learning disorder, there's a treatment, it needs different management from standard strategies, and this lad's education landed up in tatters because it wasn't spotted. I didn't spot it because I lived with it every day, and anyway, his dad's like that, so it's normal, isn't it? School didn't spot it because they were focused on the problem of an Inconvenient Child. My extended family on both sides was on at me about my parenting skills, or apparent lack of them, unable to see that the other child is jumping through all the educational hoops "correctly".
My son has probably in large part educated himself, and benefited most from the approach I had of opportunistic learning at home, with my two - if they asked a question, we'd investigate together: we made things together too. He's built his own computer, is exceedingly skilled with computer graphics, and at sixteen joined a group of other likeminded souls met over the internet, developing a video editing programme together. He's been to a couple of expenses-paid conferences in the US on the back of that too. The consultant assessing him says that had it not been for his intelligence, and for the support he got from home, his outlook and general situation would have been pretty poor - he's managed to compensate for his difficulties, but it's not been straightforward for any of us.
So - okay, maybe don't jump to SEN as the first port of call, but actually, that doesn't exonerate any of us from a need to keep it in mind. It's not that rare, it's often missed, and above all, it needs different approaches to get things right for that child: besides which, as someone has already said, individualisation of approach is a luxury the one-to-one teacher enjoys: or should enjoy. Otherwise, in my mind, it's questionable as to whether they should be teaching.
Thank you for sharing your son's story Anacrusis, it was courageous of both of you.
It does sound so familiar with the stories I have heard from the parents of kids I have taught, and of my own experiences.
The term 'Special Educational Needs' says it all. These will be people at the extremes, the vast majority of pupils one comes accross will not be, whether they have a specific learning difficulty or are Gifted and Talented.
When my kids were tiny the number of parents who liked to tell me how smart their 'little Johnny' was. However they looked they did not look like that they had been run ragged by their off-spring who needed constant stimulation and high level tasks.
Being unkind I could have said, '...and pigs might fly!', especially as I watched them play.
Other parents whose children were slow were desparate to have a dyslexic kid, then I saw the one or two kid who genuinly was dyslexic, and realised that kid is being held back due to a SLD, the other one is just thick or lazy.
The same is true when dealing with pupils. Some won't be bothered, yet just sometimes, there is a reason. That is why the question is worth asking. Knowing the frustration from being there (remember by being higher functioning dyslexic which was not picked up until I was 18 I count as SLD and G&T) and watching my own children deal with how other children and adults have dealt with my own children (Matthew in particular), not spotting Special Educational Needs and assuming that a person is plain awkward is heart breaking.
As teachers we need to be sympathetic to the needs of our pupils and then act accordingly. After all teaching is as much a vocation as it is a job.
It does sound so familiar with the stories I have heard from the parents of kids I have taught, and of my own experiences.
The term 'Special Educational Needs' says it all. These will be people at the extremes, the vast majority of pupils one comes accross will not be, whether they have a specific learning difficulty or are Gifted and Talented.
When my kids were tiny the number of parents who liked to tell me how smart their 'little Johnny' was. However they looked they did not look like that they had been run ragged by their off-spring who needed constant stimulation and high level tasks.
Being unkind I could have said, '...and pigs might fly!', especially as I watched them play.
Other parents whose children were slow were desparate to have a dyslexic kid, then I saw the one or two kid who genuinly was dyslexic, and realised that kid is being held back due to a SLD, the other one is just thick or lazy.
The same is true when dealing with pupils. Some won't be bothered, yet just sometimes, there is a reason. That is why the question is worth asking. Knowing the frustration from being there (remember by being higher functioning dyslexic which was not picked up until I was 18 I count as SLD and G&T) and watching my own children deal with how other children and adults have dealt with my own children (Matthew in particular), not spotting Special Educational Needs and assuming that a person is plain awkward is heart breaking.
As teachers we need to be sympathetic to the needs of our pupils and then act accordingly. After all teaching is as much a vocation as it is a job.
Surely EVERY single pupe has "Special Educational Needs" - as each one is different?! Once you start attaching labels then that's when the rot sets in. I've had a couple of "Gifted and Talented" pupils who, sadly, were neither but had been "labelled" by their respective schools. This resulted in an over-inflated opinion of their own abilities - it was a dreadful situation for me as the parents' expectations got off on the wrong foot.
I was chatting to one of my Year 13s this week - who is dyslexic. The pupe mentioned that when her (academic) performance isn't where expected (her own expectation) she tends to "blame" it on her dyslexia and went on to say that had she never been diagnosed would she have just got on with it with a different attitude? A mature comment I thought with no right answer. Coincidentally her dyslexia has never caused her problems with reading music.
I've never had two dyslexic pupes who have the SAME problems musically anymore than the "normal" ones. I have a delightful Year 3 pupe who has been labelled recently with goodness' knows how many different difficulties....but, hey, said pupe is the only one in the class who can play the flute....
And well said, S_G, for articulating the thoughts of many of us so early on in this thread.
Bx
I was chatting to one of my Year 13s this week - who is dyslexic. The pupe mentioned that when her (academic) performance isn't where expected (her own expectation) she tends to "blame" it on her dyslexia and went on to say that had she never been diagnosed would she have just got on with it with a different attitude? A mature comment I thought with no right answer. Coincidentally her dyslexia has never caused her problems with reading music.
I've never had two dyslexic pupes who have the SAME problems musically anymore than the "normal" ones. I have a delightful Year 3 pupe who has been labelled recently with goodness' knows how many different difficulties....but, hey, said pupe is the only one in the class who can play the flute....
And well said, S_G, for articulating the thoughts of many of us so early on in this thread.
Bx
Bagpuss, my husband is dyslexic and wasn't diagnosed til 21, when he was at the end of his music degree. He subsequently went on to do an MMus and a PGCE. It would, no doubt, have been beneficial for him to be diagnosed earlier but the flip side is that he found a range of strategies himself to overcome the difficulties he faced.
I agree that, while everyone has individual needs, there are certainly those with greater needs who would fall under the category of SEN. These students absolutely need additional support. As I've probably said already, our school has a great SEN department with attached Dyslexia Support Unit, which deals with pupils from our school and from surrounding schools. This allows many pupils with significant SEN - varying degrees of ASD, dyslexia, dyspraxia, ADD, visual and hearing impairments, Downs Syndrome - to succeed in a mainstream school. This is vital to our school, to those pupils and their parents and to the teachers who would find it very difficult to cope with these pupils unsupported in a class of 30.
Anacruis, your story about this is awful and I'm pleased it's worked out so well for your son. The objection I have is not to asking questions about SEN, but the tendency over recent posts to jump to a conclusion about SEN with very little information. (I'm not referring to OP of this particular thread here who simply raised a question.) For every child with dyslexia, there will be three who are just slow readers. For every child with ADD, there will be three who are just poorly behaved. For every child who has ASD... You get the gist. It is crucial to diagnose the kids who do have SEN and who do need help, but I am concerned that any child who doesn't exactly fit the mould is now touted to have SEN. Sometimes they don't and we are not in a position, on a forum, to diagnose or suggest diagnosis.
I do agree with Bagpuss, especially in the context of one to one learning, that every child has individual needs, whether they're recognised SEN or simply 'regular' needs. It's more necessary in a school context, where there are 30 kids in a room, to be aware of those with particular needs. When you see each child individually then surely you're much more able to cater to those needs on an individual basis.
From my own observations, I worry for the kids in the middle - not SEN of any kind, no learning difficulties or perceived G&T traits - who seem to fall through the gaps a little bit. I sometimes wish there was more time to spend with these kids who appear to 'fit the mould' but who will no doubt have particular needs of their own.
I agree that, while everyone has individual needs, there are certainly those with greater needs who would fall under the category of SEN. These students absolutely need additional support. As I've probably said already, our school has a great SEN department with attached Dyslexia Support Unit, which deals with pupils from our school and from surrounding schools. This allows many pupils with significant SEN - varying degrees of ASD, dyslexia, dyspraxia, ADD, visual and hearing impairments, Downs Syndrome - to succeed in a mainstream school. This is vital to our school, to those pupils and their parents and to the teachers who would find it very difficult to cope with these pupils unsupported in a class of 30.
Anacruis, your story about this is awful and I'm pleased it's worked out so well for your son. The objection I have is not to asking questions about SEN, but the tendency over recent posts to jump to a conclusion about SEN with very little information. (I'm not referring to OP of this particular thread here who simply raised a question.) For every child with dyslexia, there will be three who are just slow readers. For every child with ADD, there will be three who are just poorly behaved. For every child who has ASD... You get the gist. It is crucial to diagnose the kids who do have SEN and who do need help, but I am concerned that any child who doesn't exactly fit the mould is now touted to have SEN. Sometimes they don't and we are not in a position, on a forum, to diagnose or suggest diagnosis.
I do agree with Bagpuss, especially in the context of one to one learning, that every child has individual needs, whether they're recognised SEN or simply 'regular' needs. It's more necessary in a school context, where there are 30 kids in a room, to be aware of those with particular needs. When you see each child individually then surely you're much more able to cater to those needs on an individual basis.
From my own observations, I worry for the kids in the middle - not SEN of any kind, no learning difficulties or perceived G&T traits - who seem to fall through the gaps a little bit. I sometimes wish there was more time to spend with these kids who appear to 'fit the mould' but who will no doubt have particular needs of their own.
Maria you summed it up well.
Every child is special. Just ask their parents.
Every child has individual learning needs.
The term Special Educational Needs however is a specific term applied to those with Specific Learning Difficulties or those who are Gifted and Talented.
Thinking about my own kids they do not have an over-inflated opinion of themselves, they have had problems relating to their peers as thing they believe are very obvious are not to children who do not share their abilities. This does cause resentment, but neither of them understand that (this particularly was the case when they were younger).
As for the kids in the middle. I know lots of those, and they are great. There is not any need to feel sorry for them as the world is largly geared up for them. As long as you remember they are somebodies son or daughter and therefore important and special as a person, as a teacher you'll be fine, and so will they.
Every child is special. Just ask their parents.
Every child has individual learning needs.
The term Special Educational Needs however is a specific term applied to those with Specific Learning Difficulties or those who are Gifted and Talented.
Thinking about my own kids they do not have an over-inflated opinion of themselves, they have had problems relating to their peers as thing they believe are very obvious are not to children who do not share their abilities. This does cause resentment, but neither of them understand that (this particularly was the case when they were younger).
As for the kids in the middle. I know lots of those, and they are great. There is not any need to feel sorry for them as the world is largly geared up for them. As long as you remember they are somebodies son or daughter and therefore important and special as a person, as a teacher you'll be fine, and so will they.
QUOTE(Maria @ Mar 3 2012, 06:14 PM)
Bagpuss, my husband is dyslexic and wasn't diagnosed til 21, when he was at the end of his music degree.
About two weeks before I did my music degree in 1969 I was finally diagnosed with keratoconus - not a mental thing, but physical: it's a progressive malformed cornea and the most obvious symptom for me was that, unless I was squinting, I saw a six-line stave and melodies were a row of thirds. One of my tutors refused to believe there was something genuinely wrong and said I wanted not to be able to see as an excuse for failing to reach my potential. He did have the very good grace to say afterwards "Please don't take this the wrong way, but I'm glad to hear there's something wrong with your eyes, because everything seemed to point to the fact that you were just putting it on, or at least it was something psychosomatic"
I think what all of these recent posts demonstrate from first hand experience is that although the vast majority of pupils will be in the so called 'normal spectrum', when you are actually outside it can be quite distressing, and being written off is not pleasant.
This is why as soon as a teacher claims somebody is 'unteachable', I suggest it as a possibilty worth considering. (Particularly given the type of behaviour being reported).
This is why as soon as a teacher claims somebody is 'unteachable', I suggest it as a possibilty worth considering. (Particularly given the type of behaviour being reported).
QUOTE(jod @ Mar 4 2012, 12:29 PM)
I think what all of these recent posts demonstrate from first hand experience is that although the vast majority of pupils will be in the so called 'normal spectrum', when you are actually outside it can be quite distressing, and being written off is not pleasant.
But I can't see where anyone has suggested they be written off - in fact, the OP was suggesting something quite different. Even in the other thread about the 'dead wood' (which was sadly closed) they weren't being written off.
QUOTE(Seer_Green @ Mar 4 2012, 12:44 PM)
QUOTE(jod @ Mar 4 2012, 12:29 PM)
I think what all of these recent posts demonstrate from first hand experience is that although the vast majority of pupils will be in the so called 'normal spectrum', when you are actually outside it can be quite distressing, and being written off is not pleasant.
But I can't see where anyone has suggested they be written off - in fact, the OP was suggesting something quite different. Even in the other thread about the 'dead wood' (which was sadly closed) they weren't being written off.
Happily, I've never seen anyone on this forum, nor in my teaching career, suggest a student is "unteachable" and I hope that no-one has interpreted any of MY requests for help and support as implying such.
QUOTE(ExpressYourself @ Mar 4 2012, 12:54 PM)
QUOTE(Seer_Green @ Mar 4 2012, 12:44 PM)
QUOTE(jod @ Mar 4 2012, 12:29 PM)
I think what all of these recent posts demonstrate from first hand experience is that although the vast majority of pupils will be in the so called 'normal spectrum', when you are actually outside it can be quite distressing, and being written off is not pleasant.
But I can't see where anyone has suggested they be written off - in fact, the OP was suggesting something quite different. Even in the other thread about the 'dead wood' (which was sadly closed) they weren't being written off.
Happily, I've never seen anyone on this forum, nor in my teaching career, suggest a student is "unteachable" and I hope that no-one has interpreted any of MY requests for help and support as implying such.
No, I don't remember anyone suggesting on this forum that they have a student who is 'unteachable'. I have, however, read of children being described as 'thick or lazy' if they DON'T have a diagnosed SEN.
FWIW, a while ago I taught a boy who was very immature for his age but very musical - he was quite quiet in lessons but when asked to do something he could do it well. He was then diagnosed with dyslexia - and became completely WILD. I have never seen such a sudden change in a child - it was really quite distressing. It was almost like he now had permission to behave however he liked and that there would be no consequences.
Could say more but I have to go and plan my class for this afternoon!
I have bright kids who are lazy (my own).
Even within the normal spectrum there are bright kids and there are thick kids.
I also will admit to having daft moments, and doing dimwitted things.
Now maybe, just maybe my 'this is a spade' approach does not wash well with everyone who posts on this forum. However it does have an integrity about it.
I do feel at times that there is a crowd of cronies that are having a separate conversation via PM where my posts are being scrutinised and then a mass complaint session starts. Of course I could be wrong about this, and it is just paranoia. However my sixth sense does not normally have a habit of being wrong.
Even within the normal spectrum there are bright kids and there are thick kids.
I also will admit to having daft moments, and doing dimwitted things.
Now maybe, just maybe my 'this is a spade' approach does not wash well with everyone who posts on this forum. However it does have an integrity about it.
I do feel at times that there is a crowd of cronies that are having a separate conversation via PM where my posts are being scrutinised and then a mass complaint session starts. Of course I could be wrong about this, and it is just paranoia. However my sixth sense does not normally have a habit of being wrong.
So you're saying that when a few people disagree with your point of view it's not going to be coincidence???
QUOTE(jod @ Mar 4 2012, 05:02 PM)
I do feel at times that there is a crowd of cronies that are having a separate conversation via PM where my posts are being scrutinised and then a mass complaint session starts. Of course I could be wrong about this, and it is just paranoia. However my sixth sense does not normally have a habit of being wrong.
If people are (I have no idea if this is the case), then to be quite frank, I don't blame them. People (a) Don't like to be made out to be saying things they haven't, and (b) Are fed up with this ongoing stance that you are right and the rest of us are wrong - why is it so hard to understand that actually it's a difference of opinion - neither is right nor wrong
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