Hi everyone!

I'm a new user here! I've been playing violin for almost year and I know it sounds crazy, but I want to go to Royals Academy of music when I graduate from High school in a little over 2 years! I'm testing for ABRSM grade 6 in August... I'm pretty sure I'm not good enough though, what are the requirements for entering. I think I can reach grade 8 by the time I graduate. But I mean what are your chances? Especially since I'm from the U.S. not the UK... Not trying to be arrogant, only having played for a year but... I love music! I play piano too. Thanks!

Having a son who's gone throught the process on cello the only thing I can say is that you'll have to be playing at a much higher level than grade 8 for the Royal Academy. Quite a few of his violin playing friends didn't get offers and they're good players. One of them plays in the NYO. They attract applicants from all over the world so they have a lot of good players to choose from.

You could always either take a couple of years out and work on your violin or study elsewhere and then try for a post graduate place. remember there are other good places to study.

I see, I don't know much about getting into conservatories. About how good do you have to be to get into that school. Are their transfers from community colleges in the U.S.? What's a way to measure a level higher than grade 8? What other good named school's that aren't as hard to get into than Royals?

The piano knowledge is a good thing.

The qualifications post grade 8 include the diploma system : the AB, Trinity-Guildhall (named after the two music colleges of the same names, in London) and London College (based in West London) all do diplomas at three levels, Associate, Licentiate and Fellowship, in order of difficulty. However, and not meaning to sound discouraging, the level of performance required even at Associate level is far beyond what is required for grade 8.

No - entrance is by audition, whatever stage you're at. They won't be particularly influenced by whether you're fresh out of high school or have a couple more years under your belt, and probably wouldn't really mind whether those extra years were at community college or simply waiting tables to pay for more violin lessons!


Many of the UK conservatoires expect to hear a concerto movement in the audition, which is something Grade 8 doesn't test. Implicit in this requirement is that it's a first movement from core repertoire - you aren't going to impress by playing the slow movement of the Bruch! They're looking for people who have the potential to become professional performers, after all.

All of the UK conservatoires* are highly competitive to get into, especially on violin, because they draw from a worldwide field of applicants. If your love of music is what's driving you, rather than an ambition to be a professional performer, then university courses are definitely worth looking into. They have a greater emphasis on the academic side, including historical awareness and research, analysis, and so forth, but most also give you the opportunity to develop your playing skills as well.

* Royal Academy of Music, Royal College of Music, Guildhall School of Music and Drama, Trinity College London, Birmingham Conservatoire, Royal Northern College of Music, Royal Conservatoire of Scotland (recently renamed from Royal Scottish Academy of Music and Drama).

And the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama

Would have to echo the previous posters on this one. The entry level for British and indeed most European conservatoires is extremely high and they draw students from all over the world. To be assurred of even being considered you will need to be at least Associate diploma level in your playing - doesn't mean you have to have the qualification but you need to be at that level. You also need the talent and potential to achieve fellowship level at the end of the 3-4 yr course and be a shining professional ambassador for their institution!

All UK conservatoires will interview and audition you, it's done by application and YOU pay THEM a fee for the privillege! There's no guaranteed way in other than the audition, they then choose the world's best for that year's intake.

From personal experience i can tell you the auditions are tough (i went for the Royal Academy, The Royal Northern and the Paris Conservatoire), I didn't get through and went to another top tier UK university to study music instead. It took me over 20 years to return to the performing diplomas though i'm now on track to tackle my fellowship some time in the next 2 years - life just twists and turns!

So - never give up, work hard, try and audition if you really want to, the experience will be good, but be prepared to study at another Uni first and go back to a conservatoire for post grad study.

Good Luck!

Oh my goodness, thank you for all the advice and encouragement! Yes, it looks like I'm going to need a lot more time before I can go to a place like Royals to play. Anyways based on playing for roughly a year, am I doing good? Does it look like I have the potential/talent to enter an academy like that early enough? I don't want to be super old by the time I get there! XD I'm only grade 6 now! What should I do now? Does the college or where I go to now matter at all? Do they care if you have other educational backgrounds when you audition? Because I mean there is an interview. I wonder if I should just go to an average college here and go full out into music because that carries tremendous risks. How long does it take to receive this associates..thing? XDXD So you can go whenever you feel ready? It doesn't matter if you haven't graduated Highschool? Or you could go smack in the middle of college? That's intense. I wonder what I should do now... Are musicians easily able to earn at least a living in the UK because it's very difficult here in the U.S. and I'm willing to take off anytime because I'd just love to study abroad. I am driven by both my love for music and the idea of being a performer. But I think it's more of my love for music because I want to BE a performer because the art that they perform is absolute beauty~ I get stage fright often so I doubt I want to be a musician because I want to show off or something. How I wish I started at 4 years old~~~

If you get a good pass in August after playing for 1 1/2 years then I think you are doing well. Our very own ffliwt on this forum took up the violin in her teens, raced through the grades and is now at the Birmingham Conservatoire. This is unusual but shows it can be done. Maybe you should pm her.

I'm an amateur so can't answer the rest of your questions. However I think everyone will agree that it is very difficult to earn a living as a performer in the UK. And even if you get into a British conservatory, once you are no longer a student there are likely to be problems with work permits as you will be a foreigner.

If you don't try you will never find out - just be prepared to have an alternative plan.

How do I pm her? I'd love to. Is it difficult to get a job as a foreigner for some reason? Because in the U.S. it's not a problem and makes no difference specifically because of where your from.

How do I pm her? I'd love to. Is it difficult to get a job as a foreigner for some reason? Because in the U.S. it's not a problem and makes no difference specifically because of where your from.

It does if you don't have a green card! Or at least some other official permission to work in the USA. It works the same both ways, because the shrill politics of "Those Mexicans/Pakistanisis/Poles/[insert current target] coming here and taking our jobs" occurs everywhere.

I'm fairly sure that if you got a place in an orchestra, you'd be able to get a work permit, as the orchestra can argue that you were better than anybody who already had the right to work in this country. Getting permission to live here on a self-employed basis, which is what you'd need to do if following the typical route after college of freelance playing supplemented by teaching, is harder - I'm not sure exactly what the rules are, and they're bound to have changed by the time you reach that age, anyway!

Let me get this straight are most of the people on this forum UK people or not?! XD Anyways, I'm getting really jittery regarding this whole orchestra thing. I have a long way to go and no idea what's going to happen! I'm so excited and yet scared... I just want to be good~ <3 The violin is elegant from every angle. Piano is nice too, but it's just not as sophisticated. It's shiny in that narrow show off like way. The violin is like...divine. OK, NOW I'M RAMBLING.

Um yeah, I will get a green card thingy..... @_@ My parents are bother foreigners and nothing ever happened! Are UK people very different that Americans in in what way? They look more cultured, which I like. There's too many airheads here. We Musicians, are not air-headed~ ^^

But getting a full time permenant job in an orchestra is not easy. There are very few vacancies each year and due to funding issues it's not unusual for orchestras to fill the gaps with freelance players for which I doubt you'd get a work visa. As well as all the British applicants the orchestras can also emply players from the EU without having to worry about work permits. There could be potentially hundreds of suitable qualified applicants for any job advertised job. Many of them will have had years of orchestral experience playing in youth orchestras or amateur orchestras and will have been playing at a high level for many years. Each year the conservatoire and univerities will add hundreds more players to the existing talent pool. It's a very competitve business.

Have you considered working towards going to Eastman College, Rochester, New York. I gather it has an excellent reputation and would remove problems like Visas and you would be better suited to working in the USA without having the additional problems of getting work permits. Then after Eastman you could audition for Juliard.

But, remember she was a flautist already - so all the grunt work of learning to read the clef, count the rhythms, musicality etc was already under her belt, so she could concentrate purely on playing.
Gotta say - despite that prior knowledge - impressive progress, Ffliwt.

Yes, but the OP also plays the piano, and I assume for longer than the violin. If she is really sitting grade 6 in August then presumably she has sorted the basic grunt work already.

By the way, it's the Royal Academy of Music...

All this pressure already makes me want to give up this dream right here! DDD; *sighhh*
I was going to head over to the UK because your pretty much guaranteeing you will be in a financial crisis here or at least your talent won't get the appreciation it deserves. I like what I've seen of European life a lot too.... I also adore the idea of studying abroad and I don't want to go through the stress of studying under a different language so I thought the UK. Of course I don't know much either though... Anyone know of good music schools in China?

My Big Simple Answer (trademark) is: stop worrying.

You seem to be planning a LONG way into the future, but maybe also put into place a few 'what if?' get-outs. If you decide that you're applying for conservatoires, be prepared for competitive attitudes at every stage from there on!! If you don't want to have to deal with all that, then maybe an alternative route would be more suitable?

While it's good to plan ahead for your musical career and education it's also good to try different things. I say this because I was once in your position where music was the only thing I wanted to do. I did a double degree in computers and music and spent all my time practising and trying to avoid my other degree. I was considering applying to music school after my undergraduate work (which I did in the US). More than ten years on, I am glad that I did not go into music because I have friends who did, and it is a hard life - I do not have enough drive in that field to succeed at it. My friends do, because it is all they want to do.

I say this not to discourage you from going into music because you may be one of those people who is 100% sure that that is what you want to do, but to suggest that it is a good thing to try different things. If you do try different things you give yourself the chance to enjoy and be good at them - as other people have suggested, it's always good to have a backup plan. And if you do try them and you decide that music is still for you, you will have a better idea.

I don't equate trying different things with giving up your dream - I see it as allowing yourself to consider the possibility of other dreams.

One final note on the immigration issues - don't discount them. It's not easy to get a working visa.

All the best with whatever you decide!

Thank you. Yes, I have it all planned out and one of the more likely routes is double majoring in music and something else (probably get a CPA) first than going for grad school somewhere else, I may also do this undergrad double major thing abroad because I just really want to. I'm planning so far ahead because music is something that takes so much time to get good at gradually I don't want to find out I missed something when it's too late. I need to make a few decisions and be wary of the future. I'm not like...aggressive enough regarding the intense competition that you'll have to face when going for music. At least for now, maybe I'll change though. I should focus on everyday things more though. I'm so lazy! I'll never get anywhere like this!

You are right that it takes a long time to prepare for a career in music so it is worth thinking about it now.

It's also a good thing to focus on everyday things I did enjoy my time in high school so I am glad that I did not focus on the future so much that I forgot to enjoy the present.

Yeah and you know what's the worst part is I think about the future a lot and I don't get anywhere because I don't DO anything. To scared to make a move possibilities hold me back. So the way I see it, I'm going to loose the what a great experience most seem to have in High school and I'm not going to get anything that was worth doing it for.

Hi

I can't offer advice on applying to conservatoires but I would advocate enjoying where you are now with your music and building your experience. Join orchestras/ensembles, find people to play with. Not only will you enjoy this, but it will broaden your experience and help with shaping your thoughts about where you want to go.

It's very easy to focus on a single thread of thought (and for some people, such singlemindedness is appropriate, but it's unusual) and lose sight of the wider picture (at 16 I wanted to be an astronomer... not even close!).

If your dream is to come over to the UK and study music, then why not? It might be worth looking at some of the universities that have strong reputations for music rather than the conservatoires (I'm not an expert on this - advice anyone?).

I wouldn't overly worry at this stage about employment directions as that is a long way off and it will evolve probably in direcitons you cannot even imagine now - you never know who you will meet and how that will influence you.

I think as others have suggested it might be worth considering a first degree in music and a post-grad at conservatoire

By the way, to PM someone, click on "new messages" at the top right of your screen and go from there.

Good luck.

The courses at Universities seem to me to vary hugely. Some concentrate on the academic side, Southampton seems to have a lot of performance options, and is quite flexible, you can take courses from any faculty as part of your course, Bristol seems to have a large element of composition, Surrey you can do a year working in the middle of the course, Manchester you can do a combined course with the RNCM. And those are just a few of them that spring to mind instantly.

I don't think you will find getting into a conservatoire or finding work in the music field any easier in the UK than in the USA, and if you think we are more civilised over here then I think you are in for a big shock! I think before making such a big decision you need to do some very thorough research (which asking question on a forum like this is part of ) and if you have never visited the UK then I would suggest that is essential too.

Just to give you a rough idea of the life of one graduate of the Royal Academy - my son left last summer, won a lot of prizes and has a first class degree. He has a lot of performing under his belt and has a pretty full diary for the next year or so, debut album just out with excellent reviews. BUT he still can't afford to live in London where he really needs to stay for now at least - so is based between us some 120 miles away and on a siblings sofa (at university) in London when he has concerts there. He's caught between the pillar and the post at the moment as he needs a regular teaching job to enable him to move back to London, but can't commit to that time-wise (and there aren't many about!) due to concerts/rehearsals and being 100% committed to getting his performing career off the ground. His father and I went the other way and mainly teach with the occasional concert to keep us going!

As others have said, just enjoy where you are with your music now, but please don't think that life as a musician would be easier here than the USA.

My advice is: put the goal to the back of your mind for a bit, keep playing - play to improve as much as possible and cause you love it, not specifically to get into that college.
I think it maybe possible btw, but be prepared a) to take some years out and b) to apply to different colleges, and c) work your butt off, if you want to get into a music college i think it's possible but difficult, but if you want to get into Academy, you'll have to glue your violin to your neck for the next 2 years Also you need to be prepared for possible rejections and to try again the next year. I auditioned for royal welsh after 2 years of playing, fully prepared for a rejection. I got a reserve which was better than expected and took that as a positive, practised for the next year then got in. If I didn't get in, I would have applied again the next year!

I think I did my grade 6 in a year too then did grade 8 the year after so you're at the same rate as i was. I got into royal welsh and birmingham, but there's absolutely no chance I would have gotten into Academy! However don't let anyone say it's silly or impossible, I got told I was being silly or unrealistic all the time but it didnt phase me! I knew what I could and couldnt achieve (ie. music college I thought may be possible, Royal Academy i knew wasnt possible so I just aimed for what seemed feasible)
Just aim to do what you want to do, you know what you could be capable of, and you'll know your chances closer to the time

Final piece of advice: don't try racing through the grades and difficult repertoire etc... Go at a sensible pace or you'll be regretting it! People are often impressed when I tell them i've only been playing 4 or 5 years but I wish wish WISH I could say to them 'I've been playing since I was 5.' I don't see the fast progress as a positive really, obviously I'm glad it happened or I wouldnt be here! But I have a lot to prove - lots of gossiping about me around college 'have you heard shes only been playing 4 years she must be so rubbish 'etc.etc. there's a dark side to college! (but i love it!)

NOOOO! I'm very patriotic but i must say, many parts of the UK are just, absolutely awful i will PM you more about the culture (there are goods and bads to every country of course, and I like being British, however... the UK i must say is NOTHING like the way America portrays it. No afternoon tea and crumpets, more chavs and bad language

However I do like tea.
And crumpets.

They're jealous of you ffliwt, and scared that you will end up being better than them. Take it as a compliment.

I'll have you know I've been known to serve afternoon tea!

Thanks!! I'm terrible at dealing with comments like that but I need to if I want to be in this business!



Can I have some

Of course - I bake decent cakes too! Victoria sponge, Lemon sponge or chocolate fudge? I can do a decent version of each

All of the above please! Especially the latter

LilyAskar you will also need to consider tuition fees, living expenses and air fares. Fees for the year 2012 -2013 for non uk/EU students are set at ?18 600 with them estimating living costs of ?11 000 so it could easily cost in excess of ?30 000 a year to study in London.

You also mention you want to study in the UK because of the financial crisis where you are and because your talent won't be appreciated where you are.

1) The financial crisis effected and still effects Europe. Greece for example has had to be bailed out on several occasions during the last couple of years to prevent it going bankrupt. It is still in a mess financially and several other European countries are still in a poor financial situation.

2) I doubt that classical music is supported any better in the UK than in the USA.

As Ffliwt wisely said some parts of the UK and some of the culture are awful. Yes we have some beautiful scenery, a long and interesting history, some amazing buildings and even some good food and drink in places but we also have areas of high deprivation, racial tension, gang warfare and last summer days of riots in some of the major cities including London. No country is perfect all have their good and bad points. For most people most of the time life is fine.

There's nothing wrong with studying abroad but do it because you want to experience a different culture or learn with a particular teacher not because you think work will be easier to find or will be appreciated as a classical musician more. You could end up very disappointed.

Also look into other consevatoire and universities. There are lots of good teachers teaching all over the world in other excellent institutions. By being open to other conservatoire and univerisities you will increase you chance of actually being able to study the violin and make a living from it.

Speaking up for London - I don't know whether it is because London is so cosmopolitan that nobody fits in anyway, but I have lived here for ten years and have only encountered things like that very late at night in the drunker parts of town (which is about normal for any big city I think). I normally feel quite safe as long as I exercise reasonable precautions, and I enjoy the diversity of things happening.

London *is* expensive though.

Are there any summer exchange programmes you could do, come to the UK for a short while and get some experience of it? I've no idea what the rules and regulations are, or even if that kind of thing exists, but it would give you a clue as to whether you really do want to spend more time here.

A friend of mine came from Athens to do her degree and had the biggest culture shock - she stuck it out but was unhappy and went back to Greece as soon as she could. Another chap also from Athens is now teaching in Wales so it worked out for him, so it's each to their own.

I have also had men stop their car when I've been waiting to cross a road, to wave me across (when there was nothing behind them, and no other reason for them to stop - this wasn't on a crossing) - more than once - which made me furious. I'll cross when I want to cross, not when you tell me to .

Are you kidding about getting furious?

I would have thought that if you were waiting to cross the road then the driver who waits is just being polite. I've often stopped to let people cross when no one's behind me, because I think it's rude when drivers leave you standing there waiting for ages, especially in the rain.

Oh, not in the normal sense of pausing if it's foul weather, busy, or cars are going slowly anyway, but when there is literally nothing else on the road and they have deliberately slowed from 30mph to stop, when there is absolutely no need to. And even after I declined to cross, for the sake of making a point, they too decided to make a point of it, which wound me up further. Maybe I should chillout more!

The discussion *is* somewhat relevant to the original thread because the OP has mentioned culture as one of the reasons to study abroad. It must be a good thing for her (assuming that the forum username is indicative) to know about these issues?

Also, having been in the same situation before in another country (I am a woman and was the target of catcalls, whistles, leers, etc. casually by men whom I didn't know- on the street, in my apartment building, everywhere pretty much), it is a hard thing to go through. It is very frightening. My experience was that a majority of the behaviour directed towards me was by men of a certain race, different from mine (which race, I am not going to mention here). When incidents like this happen I think it is disingenuous to sugarcoat it and not make the observation that it seemed to happen along racial lines. It is simply descriptive. I have friends and colleagues of this race and I am perfectly capable of telling the difference between them and the chaps who chose to target me in such a manner (for all I know, they might do it to all women - I've no idea - but I know I was a minority in that community and i stuck out visually).

I think it goes further than just being offended (which is indeed subjective); it is awful when you are constantly scared because the incidents happen day in day out and you have no idea what you did to trigger them, or you are just behaving "normally" and it triggers them, and you have no idea if they are one day going to escalate beyond mere words. In my case, the incidents happened in winter too, while I was dressed appropriately for winter, so I couldn't even have said I was dressed provocatively. I know that it "wasn't just me" because now I live in London, and I have not been through such incidents except when in the middle of town very late at night when lots of people were drunk. So I don't think I was looking for things that weren't there; there were too many incidents too evenly distributed.

After a year of this, I moved away to get away from the problem. I moved to the UK - so, I am an immigrant here. I don't feel offended or slighted by British people who wish to discuss the issues surrounding the loss of their culture.

But anyway, these incidents are not common- a couple of people's descriptions of their own unpleasant experiences shouldn't be indicative that one shouldn't go abroad to study. I did go abroad to study and got a lot out of it. Perhaps the lesson is that going abroad to study will bring you many different things - usually mostly good, occasionally bad, and you try to deal with the negative stuff as best as you can by removing yourself from the bad situation. And you do your research about the place that you heard about - to try and tell whether that person's experience is indicative, or isolated. And you realise that places may change with time; that town that I used to live in is now quite different, I am told by people who live there currently. It was more than ten years ago.

Any new readers of this thread would think that I am over-reacting or hypersensitive. It is because some of the posts have been edited after I had posted my comments. Even ffliwt has edited her post a little.

I am not going to regurgitate what was being said.

I am also not condoning men (of any ethnicity/nationality) who behave in the way you have described. I have three sisters and I know what you mean (and is not limited to UK). I myself have experienced public abuses. And you have my sympathies.

I don't mind people discussing racial issues but what I do mind is generalizing the issue or people and use of certain phrases and words. I have listed a few already (including "Chav").

I would have posted a comment even if it was about any other ethnicity/nationality not just my own. I often correct people if they use the words "White" or "Europeans" loosely.

And my OH is Caucasian.

I think I have said enough on this topic and saying anymore would be as useful as re-arranging deck chairs on the Titanic. Hence, this will my last post on this thread.

You can PM me if you want to discuss further.

Excellent post, corenfa. Well said!

I think you made some very good points.

Not sure whether anybody is still interested in views on London, but...

In my 30 years, more or less, living in London I have had a knife pressed up against my wrist on a busy train in broad daylight (nobody did anything to intervene), I have been beaten unconscious with a length of metal tubing -- again on a train, broad daylight, plenty of people, nobody intervened -- I have been hit over the head with a heavy plastic bin, I have, on separate occasions, been robbed of a clarinet and a wallet (note robbed, as distinct from simple theft, which I have also experienced), I have been kicked so hard that I can't walk, I have had somebody reach into his pocket and ask whether he is going to have to "shank" me (i.e. stab me), I have had to open my front door to give refuge to a young black boy (it is relevant that he was black) who had been beaten about the head with a baseball bat by members of a local black postcode gang, I have been interviewed by the police in connection with a gang stabbing that took place opposite my house (one of a string of murders to happen on the same road), and earlier in my life I was sexually assaulted (among other things) by three different men in both systematic and opportunistic attacks.

HOWEVER, despite all this, London is the only city in the UK where I would choose to live. I did spend three years in Oxford to go to one of the universities there (the more famous one) and I hated almost every moment of it. The cultural opportunities in London are simply unrivalled almost anywhere in the world, and certainly anywhere in this country. I go to a concert, an opera, or a ballet at one of the roughly ten main venues in London once, twice, sometimes three times in a week and over the years I have heard perhaps most of the world's greatest musicians at least once, some of them many times. My friends who live in Manchester never miss a performance by the Mariinsky on tour, but here in London I can afford just not to go -- I mean, it would be nice to go, but I go to so much as it is that it's not a necessity. Just the other day I was weighing up whether I wanted to see Les Troyens at the ROH. Well, it would be nice, but it's long and it's expensive and I already have tickets for Salome, Otello, The Prince of the Pagodas, and the Operalia winners' concert, not to mention Cape Town Opera on tour at ENO, as well as ENO's own Billy Budd, and some Handel operas at the Barbican, oh yes, and Zurich Opera on tour at some point too, and that's just the tip of the iceberg, so I decided to give it a miss. It is quite possible that this is the greatest city in the world. If it's not then its rivals are few.

You may be in a different part of London to me, but that does sound like you've been particularly unlucky. I've never been a victim of any knife-related incidents, have never had an instrument thieved, forcibly or otherwise, and certainly have never been beaten unconscious...

Hope though that you never have to suffer such things again.

Oh my goodness! You have been exceedingly unlucky. In 33 years in Central London have never had such bad experiences and do wonder which part of London you live in! I did have someone pressed themselves up against me on the underground in a very ***!! way and I borrowed a few loud choice words from the street which were incredibly effective and he got off the next stop. I have had my purse stolen at least five times and each time bar once when it was physically snatched from me by a kid on a bike, it was because I had left my bag unlatched. My son was attacked on Hampstead Heath once, and once he saved a cylist who was drunk and about to be mugged as he wobbled down the road. I do live opposite some short term housing that has a lot of incidents and regular police visits but I smile at the tenants and try to make sure they know I am friendly in an effort not to be one of their targets..so far it seems to work. I have also taken a self-defence course and walk with a personal alarm. However, I absolutely love London and my OH will have to drag me kicking and screaming to move out of this vibrant lively happening city. I do hope you dont have any more bad experiences here.

This post was on my mind last night and may well have saved me from being mugged, or perhaps I was being sensitive. I was walking home and felt the person behind me was just a bit too close as there was plenty of space for her to overtake me. I slowed down for her to overtake me and was almost standing still at one point but she still stayed behind me. I turned round and looked at her again at which point she looked at me, apologised and crossed the road and hastily disappeared.

I too wonder where you live in London, jonathanquinn, and am sorry to read that you have been extremely unfortunate. It is good to see your experience has not put you off living in London. I very much enjoy living in London despite it being less attractive than where I was brought up.

The only incident I have been involved in was when a boy tried to grab my handbag in a busy tube station. I did the one thing I thought I would never ever do and grabbed it back. He then put his arm around me and said he was only joking and then walked off with his friend.

You did that absolutely correctly, PianoNotes.

Blimey, jonathanquinn, that is a terrible lot of things to have gone through. I am really sorry to hear about that and I hope you never have to live through anything like that again.

I guess because I grew up in a somewhat disreputable South-East Asian city, I developed a core of slightly paranoid behaviour that I never lost. I am always watchful and I wonder how many situations like that of PianoNotes I have avoided simply because something's not quite right so I hang back, or take a longer better lit route, etc. I never let go of my bag so have never had problems with pickpockets (again ingrained behaviour because of growing up where I did).

I feel more unsafe in that disreputable South-East Asian city than in London, truth be told. I have never felt unsafe in London BUT I think that may be because I consciously avoid the areas that I perceive to be such, and I am also very boring and don't get out much. I also tend to carry several random canvas shopping bags with things like newspapers and gym kit poking out, which makes me look a bit disorganised and not worth robbing.

I guess these are things to note for anyone not from a city moving to a city. It may even apply to people who are coming from cities which are safe- I have friends from Singapore, which is known for being quite a safe city, who unfortunately got pickpocketed or mugged because of not being aware of some things.

Not that I am saying in any way that people who get mugged are "asking for it"- sometimes things are unavoidable BUT sometimes I think also that we can also decrease the probability of such things happening to us.

You can't be that far from me then! Just to reiterate - South East London is a pretty safe place on the whole - none of the above has ever happened to me...

As my old flat mate in London used to say - "You've been living here X weeks now, and you haven't been murdered once!"