Following another thread...

I hardly ever tell kids they are good. I praise them for specific things, particularly when they work things out themselves or apply something they already learned in a new, appropriate situation. But I don't gush about the fact that they play the violin or that they sing or that they just got 139 for Grade X.

(I thought about this recently because I <did> gush to a Gd 2 violinist who got a Pass of 102. I told him that he could do something that 99.9% of people could not do and that he should feel enormously proud of his certificate because he worked so hard for it.)

But I have to admit I cringe if I hear kids telling others that they are 'On Grade X' (especially if they did Grade X-1 last month) and have been know to say 'Yes, but are you making a Grade X sound? With a Grade X bowhold?' Maybe I am just Mean.

Focusing what you tell is undoubtedly important, but withholding praise isn't great either: it is not always true that a child will make greater and greater effort to please someone apparently unwilling to be pleased - some will assume the worst and give up trying. Yes, liberal and diffuse praise probably doesn't do much good either, but well-aimed words will boost self-confidence. Thus research would suggest that the blanket, "aren't you clever?" is much less helpful than, "I like the way you have done this bit, or made that, the colours are pretty" or "that was nicely in tune". Mixing that with a bit of how could you do that better, not every time, but some of the time, allows a message to filter through of room for improvement.

I used to cringe when the kids of distant relatives made a biiiig song and dance about how clever they were (they weren't) or how musical (they're okay, but not spectacular), but they grew up in a different culture, where blowing one's trumpet is the thing to do. Here we prize a more modest (sometimes to almost stupid levels) presentation, but sadly a culture of using put-downs for kids wanting a bit of positive reassurance means that there are also many growing up feeling insecure and uncertain of their own merits.

In practice, I guess it means we need to think about what we're wanting to achieve. I want to be able to set my kids out in the world, independently thinking and well-enough liked by those they interact with that they have the best chance of being happy and confident in their own abilities. As a parent that means accepting shortcomings, trying to work with those, and building on the plus sides, be that of character or of achievements. As a pupil, the approach I have valued most has been that which has implied that I am capable, and demonstration of patience with my gremlins: I do need someone to pat my back to let me believe I can probably play okay, and if my teachers hadn't ever told me when I did a job well, I'd not have managed what I have to date.

Hmmmm. Interesting topic! Thinking about it, I never simply tell them that they're "good", but focus on specific points, as just about any published advice tends to rightly recommend.

The difference is between those where the specific point is something like "You remembered most of the B flats" or "You played the right rhythms", compared broader comments such as "You're a really reliable and sensitive player in ensembles" or "You respond very expressively to the changes of harmony".

Telling gifted players that they're "good" is probably unnecessary - they're generally well aware of it, or at least that they're very capable in comparison to their peers.

I know what you mean about the "on Grade X" cringe. Far worse when you hear it from (competitive) parents. Perhaps some of it is oneupmanship, but it's also maybe a terminology arising from the emphasis on testing (and on the preparation for it) in schools: "doing Sats this year", or "taking GCSEs" for two or three years. Either way, it's not mean to point out that the grades are only a single measurement of achievement on a specific date, not some continuing curriculum.

I don't think I tell any of my pupils they're 'good'; I might say something sounds good or they've worked hard, but at the end of the day, how does one define 'good'? It seems an entirely comparative term to me. I'm all for praise when it's due, in moderation.

I know one teacher who gives stickers, sweets, chocolates, presents, cakes etc. practically every time their pupils breathe. Of course, it is attractive to the pupils, but to me it does them no favours long term. It leads them (as I see so often in schools these days) into this mentality that there will be a material reward every time they 'achieve'. Of course, the reality of life is very different. Whilst they need to be praised and encouraged, when do they learn that some things are worth doing just for the sake of it?

I give the occasional sticker and I do praise (maybe not as much as I should), but the effects of this are much more realistic. Because they know I don't give out stickers very often, they know that when they do get one, they've really earned it.

Maybe I'm just mean too

I remember reading a study a while ago, with pre-school children, which showed how problematic this is. I can't remember the details, but it was to do with spontaneous drawing for pleasure, as opposed to requested drawing with or without the promise of a reward. Those who were routinely told they would be rewarded at the end of the task were found, later on, to be less inclined to draw for pleasure.

Quite separately, I have once singled out a pupil for a shower of superlative-laden general praise, but this was when saying goodbye due to me moving away, and she did (and still does) stand out as an exceptionally promising young musician

My pupils only get a sticker or an 'excellent' against a piece if it was played almost perfectly first time; for beginners, this means that the notes and rhythm were all correct, and for the more advanced, that the piece was performed fluently and with all the appropriate musical detail. In these instances, which do not occur very often, I do gush!

Kemp's book "The Musical Temperament" has a couple of paragraphs on teachers and praise. I can't now remember the details but it was quite complex and rather paradoxical along the lines that teachers who were most likely to give lots of praise in their role as teachers were the least receptive to praise when they were learning and that those who had found praise gratifying when they were learning were the least likely to praise their own pupils.

It also has a lot on which sorts of pupils need praise - for some it is a vital part of the learning process, others are almost impervious to it. So I suppose the real question ought to be not "how" do you tell your students they're good but "how do you know which students need to be told their good." (And so, in the end, to how well do you know your pupils).

I'd be very interested to know the details of this. If a teacher was very aware of undeserved praise when learning (easily misinterpreted as unreceptive), amd as a result ensures that they always give regular, specific and deserved praise to pupils, it doesn't sound problematic to me!


So true. The boundary between praise and reassurance is a very blurred one.

As a parent I just want teachers to be honest. When daughter does well or improves I want them to tell her so. Most of all I want them to give her direction on how to improve, to talk to her about where progress can be made. If she makes steps along the progress path then it's nice to know but it should always be kept in context. I would rather have no praise than false praise

does anyone really deserve no praise, ever?

No, I don't think so. Although I don't go OTT in praise I do make a point of saying 'Hurray! You're here with your violin AND your music AND your fingers and you are ON TIME!' to some of my most chaotic students on the occasions when it is deserved. And often they are the least accomplished because they don't get organised at home by themselves or their parents to practise so progress is limited.

In Group lessons I get the kids to tell each other one thing that they can see is good, although one time one kid came out with 'You handled all the mistakes pretty well'

On a daily/weekly basis, I only talk about specific things - yes, this was better, yes, that was good, yes (occasionally) that is great and spot-on and, no, that was not right, you can do better . . .

But, occasionally, I've had more of a heart-to-heart chat where I've told a child that they're very good, that they've got a lot of talent, have something whihc very few others have etc. etc.
But this is a 'big-picture' chat which is usually part of a 'you-could-do-so-much-better-if-only-you-pulled-your-finger-out' sort of chat.

An examiner in the making!

Especially when approaching exams, I like to get them to comment on one another's performanes, asking in advance for "one thing that's really good, and one thing that could be improved". It really gets them thinking

I like to be very honest with pupils. I specifically praise the things they do well, but am blunt about the things which need work. They don't seem to mind at all - I'm giving them the keys to improving their playing. I often ask them what they thought of something they just played and it's surprising how even the littlest will say "too many pauses" "no dynamics" etc. Which makes me realise that they would quickly spot undeserved praise.

If they've worked hard in the lesson I always say "well done" at the end.

If I have nothing good to say, because no practise has happened or they messed about in the lesson, then I say so. I hope they feel that effort on their part will be noticed and that real achievement will be praised.

Like dolce@piano - I have said "you're good" when having a straight talk about a lack of practise with a pupil who could do well.

As usual though, I've picked up a lot of new tips from this thread!

That's interesting, I am quite forgiving about the odd occasions when not much practise has happened and usually say something about 'Let's get you back into the swing again' because often, it's not their fault they have not had time and I know it's not a good feeling to not progress with manageable stuff.

And I've realised I always say Well Done! at the end of a lesson, as well as often saying thanks for coming - which sounded really affected when I began doing it but one of my son's teachers says it and I liked it!

I think it is important to praise at the appropriate times. Unfortunately none of my children's teachers praise them and tend to only criticse, even if done in a pleasant and constructive way. Because of this my children do not have as much confidence in their abilities eventhough they are good. When they achieve a high exam mark or pass an audition they still assume they are not that good as they never hear praise. A less talented child is no more deserving of praise than a talented child. In fact if a less talented child is praised more then a love of music is inculcated. It is terrible to think that we don't do this to our most talented musicians and often the reverse is true.

That sounds rather like teachers who don't like teaching or just don't get it.....

I often say "well done!" too at the end, because I want them to leave feeling that they have achieved something (and usually they have, even if at times it's not very much). But I don't say it if it really isn't deserved. I wouldn't say "thanks for coming" though, because it sounds as though they have done you a favour, when if fact you are charging them for it!

I give praise when praise is due. Having said that, a child who is very timid or needs more encouragement is likely to get a little more praise. Usually it is very specific, but occasionally it is a "general chat" kind of praise, as one wee girl in particular needs to keep being reassured that she is doing alright.

Even as an adult, I appreciate praise in my flute lesson - although if I get it, I know I have done something really well.

Ouch. I'm afraid, if I were said chaotic individual, and that's entirely feasible, I'd simply take that for the veiled reprimand it actually is. Now I can see that less sensitive snowflakes than I clearly am would be saying fft and tsk and oh goodness me stop being so precious - but the point is, we rarely make original comments: the personality hearing that will almost certainly be hearing that sort of thing over and over from others too, and with time, that sets and makes us think of ourselves in a certain way. True, meaningful praise, is the bit which acknowledges valuable achievement properly. I'm not saying, don't mention it at all, but it's worth considering saying ooh, I'm pleased you're organised today, we can make more of the lesson that way...and then moving on. We tend to value organisational ability but it doesn't come naturally to everyone, and those to whom it does see it as a virtue, which leaves the rest of us feeling a bit undervalued.....

My current piano teacher gives effusive praise, in (almost) every lesson. She is quite specific in her praise, and only gives it when deserved. She then moves on to help me in the areas which require work. It makes me want to be magnificent for her.

It is a very different relationship to that with another teacher who this week told me "Very Good" after playing a piece. I had worked very hard, it was my first two part composition. I knew that it was good, I also knew that her praise was not heartfelt, so it felt more like condemnation than praise.

I think that even some young students can tell the different between various types of praise.


Edit: I've just looked up effusive in the dictionary. I meant the "overflowing" definition, not "unduly demonstrative".

Being one of those terribly British types who find gushing praise deeply embarrassing, I have read this topic with interest.

Praising specific achievements is relatively straightforward, but gauging the level of praise to bestow on some children is really difficult.

I teach one little girl who shuts up like a clam if I offer her praise for her playing, but then she is a unique individual.

I have found that boys often respond well to marks out of ten, and are quite keen to improve their result.

However, if you ask them to score themselves, they will often score low in an attempt to elicit a higher score from me.

Does anyone still use the silver and gold stars that I remember being so keen on when I was a child?

I usually see those 'ouch!' comments a thoroughly deserved though they are always about my playing.
They don't cone often and I'm pretty sure that mostly that was not the intended effect.
I sometimes frustrate my teacher as she says I'm much better at accepting instruction about what I need to improve than I am at accepting praise.

Guilty as charged .

Sticker-Queen

I hope this isn't too long

In response to the quote

There was a study on the subject not too long ago, and as you said they showed there were better results when children were given praise, and not material rewards.

It's akin to a story about a jewish man who owned a shop in Germany in the late 1930's. The SS praised young boys to go round stoning jewish shop windows. So one day one of the shop owners went out and gave each of the boys some money (say a pound). They were all shocked and ran off. The next week when they did the same, he paid them a bit less (say 80p), with them running off again but a bit dissapointed. He gradually decreased the amount he was paying them until it was only penny's worth. At which point the leading boy said: "we're not going to come round and smash your windows any more because you don't pay us enough!"

The morale being: if you give someone verbal praise, they will do it for free and the joy of it. If you give them a gold star, they will do it for a reward. And once that stops coming, they won't want to do it again.



In response to the thread

Anyway I have a bit more to add as I feel strongly on this subject. I'm not a teacher though so take what I say with a pinch of salt. I just enjoy psychology.

Skinner showed when he was doing experiments on behaviour that animals respond dramatically better to positive reinforcement (praise and material reward) than to negative reinforcement (punishment). This is largely reinforced throughout behavioural psychology and is also seen in a lot of parenting books around. The point is essentially: encouragement and praise gives a person a positive experience. This makes them want to replicate and continue it. Whereas negativity will make them do it to avoid punishment, not for the enjoyment of it.

I know a lot of you talk about making sure young children enjoy instruments by not forcing it and encouraging them. But that is exactly what praise is for, whilst negative comments, especially at a young/tender age, might make a younger child feel like they can't do it and not want to try again. (Ideally comments like: that was really nice, but could you practice this more at home because I want you to be even better. or something along those lines).


That's the basics, but as with everything it is a ###### of a lot more complicated.


Different children will always react differently to certain situations. Some may prefer constructive criticism so as to know how to improve, some will like praise so that they will want to improve. Ideally they would get both. You can imagine though, if a pupil had just learnt a piece, whether difficult or easy, and had played relatively competently, then being berated with ways on how they can improve slightly, without any praise about how well they had done, might be a bit put off.

The effect is much stronger if they are new to music though. You'll find anyone who has been doing anything for a long period of time (sport, music, artistry) will be much more able to deal with negative comments and move on without minding, than someone new to the subject. I don't think I knew anyone who enjoyed taking their report card from school home, so that their parents could get at them for all the 'could do better' comments but ignore the A+ grades they had got. But they probably wouldn't mind if the comments were balanced. (you did this really well, but you need to improve on this).


From what I'm hearing from most people is that people need to give a spectacular performance to get some praise, but only give a mildly poor performance for negative comments. I mean, do you think that when you give positive praise you will always balance it with some ways to improve. But when you talk more negatively about a performance you will always praise parts of it as well?


I haven't been taught for a while so I'm taking this from what I've read and friends experiences (as well as some older memories) so please feel free to completely disagree with me.

All I'm trying to say is that:

Constructive criticism is great for telling someone how to improve.

But praise is a great way to make someone want to improve.


You probably need both to get the best out of the student right?


That's my two cents anyway.


Edit:
Forgot to add:

Adults should probably be able to take a lot more criticism than a child, although they often are much more self-critical so they probably need to be encouraged as much as a young child anyway!!!

Also:

a lot of people have mentioned getting pupils to criticise each other. Has anyone tried getting pupils to criticise themselves? I would be interested to know how it went! (If children then learnt how to know intuitively what to improve by reflecting on their own pieces).



And lastly (I need to stop editing this post) going back on what I said at the top. A more recent study showed that it is a much better idea not to tell kids: 'Oh you are very good at that'. But instead say: 'Wow, you must have worked really hard on that because it looks/sounds/is really good!'

When tested in a classroom with abstract puzzles, the former helped the children a bit, and made them feel good. But for fear of losing the reputation of being 'good' didn't want to risk doing anything too hard.

The children who had a reputation of 'hard worker = good' persevered with harder tasks until they were completed, even if it took ages.

My daughters' piano teacher and the younger one's cello teacher both do this (not so much when they're first learning a piece, but when they're trying to polish it). When asked "how did you think that went?" They usually know pretty well how well they played it, and might mention a particular section of the piece that wasn't so secure, or a lack of dynamics or trouble with a tricky shift or whatever. I like the girls thinking for themselves what went well and what less well. The teacher usually agrees, adds something (good or bad) that wasn't mentioned, and then goes on to work with them over the bits that weren't so good.

I try to do it in a similar way, but also trying to get them to identify things that did go well, or which have improved. With the more self-critical characters, reinforcing how a tricky passage is now flowing really well, for instance, can emphasise the medium-term progress they've made over a couple of months rather than simply what has improved from seven days ago.

I used to use them until I heard about The Sticker Factory - thanks, Cyrilla! - and now I use custom made stickers. My pupils love them!!

Quote from Yoshifuma:-

Adults should probably be able to take a lot more criticism than a child, although they often are much more self-critical so they probably need to be encouraged as much as a young child anyway!!!

Also:

a lot of people have mentioned getting pupils to criticise each other. Has anyone tried getting pupils to criticise themselves? I would be interested to know how it went! (If children then learnt how to know intuitively what to improve by reflecting on their own pieces).

----------------------

I am an adult returner (violin)(of mature years even if not mature temperament) and find this thread very interesting.

My teacher is very ready with praise ("well done",) whether in a group class or my individual class. I don't always agree with her, but I feel she says it more as encouragement than actual praise.

With regard to asking pupils to critique themselves---I must be a nightmare to teach, because as soon as a piece is finished I leap in with my take on how it went---which bars / phases worked, or which were raggy, etc. My teacher usually plays along with me (my preference from the beginning) and that tells me as we go along about the accuracy (or often otherwise) of my rhythm and intonation.
I am sure for adult learners self-analysis must the be norm---then the teacher can advise on how we can work towards the result we expect from ourselves !

Over the whole of my learning life I have been one of the ones who "needs" positive reinforcement, but it is difficult when praise seems too forthcoming. Having said that, I --like all adults ---know perfectly well if I am making progress or not---just going back to play the pieces I "finished" a couple of months ago tells me that.

This reminds me of when I was a teenager and used to attend a group singing class.
When we had each finished our piece, the teacher always said something like "there was a great deal of good in that performance. Perhaps you might like to improve upon the following ..........."
It did wonders for the students' morale and I never forgotten this when I am teaching . Everyone wants to be praised and in my experience it has always spurred my students on to do even better, no matter what standard they are.

When I played poorly, my viola teacher for many years would always start his comments with "There's a lot of good things to it, but..." even there wasn't much good at all. I appreciated that he was trying to be positive, but I'm afraid that it didn't make much of a difference, because I knew he would say it regardless of how I played and it became synonymous with "that was terrible" for me. I realize it was more my problem than his though.

Similarly, if you ask "What did you think?" after a pupil has played, ask it after good performances as well as dodgy ones! Otherwise it becomes synonymous in the pupil's head (or at least in my head!) with "I can't think of anything good to say."

This is why it's important to be specific about what the good things are - even if you have to think hard to find one!

I once played at a festival and the adjudicator said that I had "....good melodic projection and had really captured the perfumed orientalism" of Satie's music.

I honestly think these are some of the nicest things anyone's ever said to me!

..."good melodic projection and had really captured the orientalism" would have been nice, but would have sounded a bit like a stock phrase.

I was, however, overjoyed to be told that I had captured the "perfumed orientalism" - a lesson there somewhere!

I got 102 for my Gd 2 violin. Then I got a barage of criticism and didn't play again for 45 years. If my teacher had said what you did just maybe I would have stuck with it.

Can we poll this?

I'm not sure if there's more support for positive vs. negative vs. gushing either way.

I'll set one up if needs be.

Gushing praise is pointless as is deliberate negativity. Teachers can give pointers to improve without being negative. I suppose sometimes it depends on the mindset of the student and the family as to how they take constructive criticism.

I think a lot of people have explained very well how they point out weaknesses in a positive way. Not giving pupils things to improve or explaining to them how to get better, can be negative and equally lead to frustration.

Did the poster mean telling people they have done well at something in particular or are more generally "good" as in talented, hard working, able to do this professionally etc?

I know that DD gets praise at almost all her lessons. She always practices and makes progress though and prefers to get advice on difficult areas than hear praise at regular lessons. Suggestions for improvements take up much more of the lessons of course. The more demanding teacher gets better results.

I asked her what the best piece of praise she had ever had was and she recalled 2. Both from highly accomplished professionals at masterclasses. One was that she had transported all the audience to another world and the other that she had had a rare gift of being able to listen intensely to herself as she played. I remember other very nice more mundane comments at this sort of class which she did not - like you have excellent internal rhythm, beautiful even technique and tone etc. I think for her the more unusual the praise the more it memorable and inspirational it is. And it depends who it came from as well as to the impact.

I once saw a masterclass from a world famous player who absolutely annihilated a teen. I really blame the teacher as this child should never have been put up there. Didnt know the notes or the meaning of any terms in the music even. Really badly prepared. But the teacher was ungracious and bad tempered and although I had sympathy that her time was being wasted there were ways of dealing with this better. She could have played it herself and commented, she could have moved to the next pupil immediately..... I doubt that child will play again in public. The kid that followed looked pretty concerned at first but they had a good lesson.

For beginners with a less well developed internal appreciation of how good something really is - praise is absolutely vital and the difference between continuing and not. And limiting the areas of criticism to something achievable in near future helps too in these situations.

One of my most memorable moments of praise in a lesson was when my teacher forgot to turn the page for me because he was 'Too busy listening to the music'.

I remember my first flute teacher once turning around to me and saying "you haven't been practising so you're wasting my time and your parents' money. I can ignore this fact and tell you that you're playing well and spend lessons doing what you should be doing in practise if you want, but this lesson your playing was abysmal and I'm telling you this because I know you're a better player than this."

I was about 12 at the time, and to be honest it gave me a huge kick and the fact she said "I know you're better than this" prevented any sort of "I should just give up then" reaction.

Personally if I feel the need to be that ^ harsh, I will do it. I don't make a living out of teaching, I do it because I enjoy it and the point of a teacher is to help the student. Particularly when exams are concerned there's no point in being delicate because let's be honest there's nothing delicate about the word "fail". There are plenty of other listeners, even in a concert setting, who are there to hear the lovely music and be forgiving of shabby work, but that's really not a teacher's job and even the day before the exam of a distinction level candidate, a teacher who gets swept up in the lovely performance is a bit rubbish because there's always room for improvement, even if we're only talking holding the last note a little longer. In my view anyway.

That being said, they need to know what they're doing right! So you can't do nothing but criticise. Equally if they reallly are doing nothing more than getting the majority of the notes in some sort of order so you can vaguely tell what they're meant to be playing, then any form of praise is totally empty and genuine praise will come to mean less to them.

I just have to say that's lovely I think that will be my goal for my next lesson!

But didn't you also just say that your teacher told you how abysmal your playing was one day, but still managed to put in that you could do better. And that it may have been that which stopped you from giving up then and there?

I think some form of praise, even if it is 'you have it in you' type praise, can always be worked in can't it? Even if it just to dampen the torrent of things they need to improve on.

I agree with most of what you say, but I think the day (or even the last lesson) before the exam of a well-prepared candidate is different. For me at least, getting lots of minor criticisms rather than praise from my teacher on a basically good performance right before an exam would unnerve me rather than help me perform better, since at that point there's not much time to incorporate changes. That close to an exam I would mostly just want reassurance from my teacher - you could argue that in that case the teacher wouldn't be teaching much music and the lesson would be useless, but I think it's worth it, for my personality at least One of my friends has a very strict (in the East European style) and renowned music teacher who never skimps on criticisms and is sparing in praise, but the day before a major competition or audition she always helps her students choose what they're going to wear rather than giving them a proper lesson




I would actually be flattered if my teachers told me I could do much better.