Following on from a discussion elsewhere on these boards I began to wonder what people reckon are the best cities, both in the UK (where most forum members seem to come from) and in the world, for music.

When I go on holiday I like to take in as much of the musical culture as my budget, my time, and my travelling companion will extend to. I found that Prague has a great amount of music, as summarised in this TripAdvisor article: Prague: Classical Music. In Budapest I found myself really spoiled for choice with a range of operas, orchestral concerts, chamber music, and solo recitals to choose from every day. In the end I opted for an opera, which was of somewhat sub-ENO standard with a good soprano, a very good concert in a church (part of a baroque music festival), and a piano recital which to this day stands out as one of the best I have ever heard. When I went to Lisbon quite recently, however, there was actually only one concert on in the city during the whole of the two weeks that I was visiting (and this was not even during the summer months when one expects it all to grind to a halt). The performance was of a good professional standard but did not stand out as anything special in my more than a quarter of a century of concert-going.

Looking at my own native London I think we could fairly say that we have some of the best opportunities in the world in terms of opera and dance (ROH, Coliseum (ENO/ENB), Sadler's Wells, The Place), concert venues (RFH, QEH, Purcell Room, Barbican Centre, Cadogan Hall, Wigmore Hall, St John's Smith Square, Kings Place, RAH, Fairfield Halls, St Martin-in-the-Fields), music festivals (Proms, London Handel, City of London, Lufthansa Baroque Music, Greenwich Early Music, Spitalfields Music Summer), music education (RAM, RCM, GSMD, Trinity Laban, LCM), and ensembles (LSO, PO, LPO, OAE, RPO, BBCSO, ASMF, CLS, ECO, LMP, London Sinfonietta, English Concert, Florilegium, Southbank Sinfonia, Nash Ensemble, Gabrieli Consort and Players, BBC Singers, Holst Singers, Bach Choir, Crouch End Festival Chorus -- and those are just the tip of the iceberg). Even during the coming rather miserable week we have some forty or so performances, including appearances by Bernarda Fink, Paul Lewis, Guy Johnston, and Daniel Barenboim with the Staatskapelle Berlin, with new works, Sweet Violets and Carbon Life, running at Covent Garden.

When I talk to friends who live outside London it always seems that they feel that they are missing out on so much of the culture that we take for granted here in the capital. I wonder how other people rate their own native, or adopted, cities. I often have it in mind that one day I might end up living in Poland, and from what I can tell some Polish cities, especially Warsaw, do have some very interesting (what has most intrigued me so far is three different productions of The Rite of Spring in one triple bill as well as a recent festival of 20th-century chamber opera) and high quality music, but that there simply isn't as much of it. It could be that nobody thinks that this is a very interesting topic, but it interests me enough to try to get the ball rolling!

When I talk to friends who live outside London it always seems that they feel that they are missing out on so much of the culture that we take for granted here in the capital

Beggin' yer pardon - I's sorry as us country folk is deprived of the pleasure of livin' in the great city.

I am usually very restrained in responding to posts - but this one takes the biscuit.

I would be one of those. There are great things all over the country, but for me, nothing beats the variety, scope and scale of what's on offer in London and the surrounding area.

Well, I certainly didn't intend any offence. I was, as the heading suggests, thinking specifically of cities rather than rural areas, though that provides an interesting slant on the topic. Actually it was Manchester that I had in mind. I have quiet a number of very musical friends who have lived for some time in Manchester. I remember one of them remarking that they had been to see The Car Man, the Matthew Bourne ballet. She said that much as they had in fact enjoyed it they had really gone because there were not so many ballet performances in Manchester that they could afford to miss this one. I also remember going up to Manchester just after I had seen Genius Within: The Inner Life of Glenn Gould, a brilliant film that was only shown at half a dozen cinemas in the whole of London. I was told, fairly reliably I think, that this film had not been screened at any cinema in Manchester. When I go to the Royal Opera House, in particular, I more often than not find myself talking to somebody who tells me that they have travelled from some other part of the country, perhaps even having to stay in a hotel overnight, in order to see the performance. I conclude that there is a reason why people invest great amounts of money and time in travelling to London for a single night at the opera or ballet.

Feel free to continue to take offence should you so wish, but I assure you that none whatsoever was intended. I was merely curious to know what people's views were on the opportunities for enjoying music around the UK and around the world, a topic that would be of interest to many, I should imagine, and even of use to some. I was merely engaging in observation of facts, not trying to insult the rest of the United Kingdom.

The issue is a simple one. The vast majority of funding available to the arts is spent on London to the detriment of everywhere else.

I accept that as the capital a significant percentage of "premier" organisations will be based there. This does not excuse the narrow minded funding policy that runs from the funding bodies, which themselves are usually London based.

As a serious amateur musician I speak with some bitter experience of dealing with the Arts Council. I won't bore you with the details but in essence if you are not metropolitan based (by which I mean large city) you are going to struggle to receive funding. One organisation I am associated with is so annoyed with the disdain (to the point of being offensive) with which they were recently treated that they've asked to see senior regional management for a meeting.

The ridiculous funding policies and strategies mean that regional opera companies for example are constrained to which towns they can perform in.

Many companies (orchestras, ensembles etc) rarely travel much beyond London or the SE.

The only option to see them is therefore to travel to London.

The slight problem with that is that the last useable trains from London are usually too early to manage an evening performance (latest typically c.22.00). Which then brings us to the cost. A standard return from Crewe for example to Euston is GBP227; an off-peak return is about GBP70. To this, given last train issues, you need to add an overnight stop and all that costs. So to attend a performance and let's say pay GBP70 for a ticket, you need to add probably another GBP200+ plus two days off work if it's mid-week. You're looking at about GBP300 to attend one event. For ROH obviously more.

My complaint is that ALL taxpayers pay towards the provision of these facilities but the benefit is almost exlcusively felt by the inhabitants of one region.

Two things would ameliorate my irritation: better funding and support of regional arts groups; more regional tours by major London-based groups - we can't all travel to London or afford to. Neither of which is going to happen anytime soon.

I would love to attend BBC Prom concerts. I've been listening to them since the early 1970s. I've been to two: one I sang in, the other I worked in around a business trip to London which had an overnight stay.

I'm not expecting the LSO, ASMF, or ENO to come to a small market town in north Shropshire: I do expect them to come to say Liverpool or Manchester (my nearest large cities) or Chester and Shrewsbury from time-to-time and not as a token gesture once every 10 years or so (or not at all in some cases).

If you are fortunate enough to live within commuting distance of central London venues then you are in a very very privileged postion.

I think you will be surprised to find that I agree absolutely that there is something very wrong with culture in the UK insofar as most of it (scarcely an exaggeration, if at all) takes place in the capital city. There is, I think, one important historical explanation, which is the unification of England in the tenth century, then of England and Wales in the sixteenth, of Great Britain in the eighteenth, and finally of the United Kingdom in the nineteenth (followed by the independence of Ireland with its great cultural centre of Dublin in the twentieth). Contrast this with Germany, where Munich was until 1918 the capital city of the Kingdom of Bavaria, the second largest constituent state of the German Empire. I should think that this goes some way towards explaining how Munich became, and is still, a cultural centre almost as important as Berlin itself. Dresden and Stuttgart, the capital cities of the former kingdoms of Saxony and W?rttemberg, as well as other important German cities, such as the Free Hanseatic City of Hamburg, also continue to flourish as cultural centres much more important than cities of similar size in the UK (Dresden is somewhat smaller than Sheffield). In Italy, which has a similar history, the most famous opera house is of course not in the capital but in Milan, and in fact almost every Italian city seems to boast one of the world's finest opera houses.

But I am sure, too, that London continues to be dominant in British culture largely for reasons of funding as outlined about. This certainly is not a situation which makes me happy. Consider the gulf between London and even the UK's traditional second city, Birmingham, which has the Birmingham Royal Ballet and Royal Ballet Sinfonia, the City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra, and Symphony Hall, a world-class concert hall which I have visited. Early and contemporary music interests are served by Ex Cathedra, Birmingham Contemporary Music Group, and Birmingham Opera Company. There is the UCE Birmingham Conservatoire. All of this is good, of course, but it nonetheless suggests that the UK as a whole has something of a lack of ambition for what we somewhat pejoratively call our provincial cities. Munich, by contrast, has half a dozen professional orchestras, including the Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra, one of the finest in the world. No British city other than London comes close to that. I am certainly not enjoying this fact; rather, I am asking why it is so. As you quite sensibly admit, Pl?cido Domingo is not going to be singing in Telford, but why do Manchester and Liverpool not boast opera houses equal to La Fenice and the Teatro San Carlo?

I certainly agree that there is something wrong with the distribution of funding for the arts in the UK. I was merely stating the facts, not meaning to suggest that I approve of them.

Very true. But despite the undoubted cultural opportunities to be found in the Capital, wild horses couldn't drag me there. I prefer the wild. woolly cultural desert that is the North.

We do get some good music in Manchester and we have recently had visits from Orchestre de Toulouse, St Petersburg Phil, Anne-Sophie Mutter and the New London Consort. It would be nice if a few more could be attracted here but the downside for a visiting outfit is that they may not fill a hall (neither St Petersburg or NLC attracted what I would consider to be reasonable audience in the Bridgewater Hall). My own, non scientific, untested approach would be to try to attract smaller ensembles to smaller venues.

Of course what we do have up here is fantastic countryside all around us.

I agree about the wild horses There is a very serious risk I may have to move to London for the job and I am not happy at the idea.

As you say both Liverpool and Manchester have very good concert halls in the Philharmonic Hall and the Bridgewater Hall and there are very good orchestras in the BBC Phil, RLPO and Halle, as well as smaller groups such as Manchester Camerata. The Empire theatre in Liverpool has one of the largest stages in the country and I remember going to see Parsifal there (WNO, Reginald Goodall, Donald McIntyre).

I agree that there is a shortage of the intermediate sized venues. Liverpool has the stunning Rodewald suite at St. George's Hall for chamber music which has grown in use in recent years. Liverpool's two cathedrals provide venues for big concerts (e.g. Mahler 8) but the long reverb times (both around 10 seconds) aren't helpful. Manchester has the RNCM which adds resources.

Manchester's attitude to motorists doesn't help - public transport doesn't work for me getting to/from Manchester but at typically GBP8 - GBP11 to park it's very off-putting (when you add 100 mile round trip and GBP15 diesel costs into the equation).

Anyway, I've probably said enough on the subject . Maybe the move of significant BBC resources to Salford will have a long-term impact on attitudes?

... and you are probably also privileged to make that same sardine-packed journey every day of your working life for 40 years. It's a question of choices and balance. We'd all like everything of everything. To re-visit the OP, is there a city anywhere (world, not only UK) that has both [say] Manchester or Glasgow's setting in terms of access to real countryside and London's culture?

I have visited Salzburg on business - I suspect that fits the bill?

I think I get the best of both world's where I live (not a city!). We quite often go to London to visit OH's sister in West London. In the time it takes to get from her flat in West London to, for example, the O2 arena I can get from my house to Leeds, Manchester, Liverpool, Sheffield, Bradford or York. All of which have great theatres not to mention a few mid/ small theatres in between - Lawrence Batley in Huddersfield, The Met in Bury, Parr Hall in Warrington to name just 3. which all have interesting professional productions coming through. We go to a lot of pop/ rock gigs and I actually think we have a better deal than London as quite often the bands we like will do just one, at most two, London gigs wheras we will often have 5 or even 6 gigs within easy reach of us. So we can pick and choose the date that suits us best or go and see them a couple of times.

Would there be more choice in London? Probably
Are there more concerts/ events within reach, that I'd like to go to, than I am able to get to? Yes, I could probably go to something I was interested to see maybe 3 or 4 times a week, if not everyday if I had the inclination.
So would I actually go to more things if I did live in London? Probably not!

In addition, I have wonderful countryside within easy reach, a house with a drive and garden in a nice area without a crippling mortgage. The important thing is to make sure all the Londoners THINK they live in the best part of the country so that they don't all decide to move up here. No honestly, it's grim up North....

Oh absolutely. Don't move up here anyone. You won't like it.

Nowhere else comes close to Vienna

Having lived in central London and other, much smaller cities and towns in the UK one thing is really clear to me: there are undoubtedly far more musical and cultural events in London. Another thing that is equally clear - the amount of time I'm able to spare to go to these events is no different regardless of where I live. Just because the opportunities to see concerts in and around London exist doesn't mean I am actually able to take advantage of them. In fact, I suspect my current location means I have less free time and a lower quality of life being jammed into the tube at the crack of dawn every day!

*giggle*
mortgages in my bit of "up 'ere" are not quite as hefty as those in London, but not that far off, either...

yes, London cadges the absolute lion's share of everyfink, but we have reasonable music in Glasgow, Edinburgh, Manchester, Liverpool, Newcastle, Birmingham....I could wish for better baroque music in Edinburgh, but that's just me. There are also music festivals all over the place - York and Chichester, Edinburgh of course too, and the various musical education establishments through the country as well. Apologies to Wales and Northern Ireland - my knowledge is limited.

In Germany, I've lived in Cologne and Munich, both of which are well served for music, and have family in Berlin, where there is oodles of music also going on.

I'm not sure really that there is such thing as best though. Depends what you want, in what sort of dosage, and what other up and downsides there are - London may have lots but it's huge, expensive and overwhelming: Edinburgh is much smaller, still expensive, and only has lots for about three or four weeks in the year, and I'm sure similar can be compiled for everywhere else...

For opera, ballet, orchestras, chamber music, choirs, early music, contemporary music, concert venues, festivals, free events, overall quality of life? How does the rest of Austria compare?

How does Bristol rate? Seeing as I have previously tempted fate by declaring that's where I'd rather be.
Older thread

Ah well in Bristol we are lucky as we have St Georges which is a very wonderful classical/world music venue, being small with excellent acoustics, and often completely full which is nice for the performers... And the colston hall ain't bad either - we had Nigel Kennedy recently. There is a local professional musician's collective, the Bristol Ensemble who playa to a high standard, and the Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra play regularly at the colson hall. Lots of stuff going on for musical kids too.

Also relatively easy to get to London for those mega-concerts, though sometimes a tight squeeze to get the last train back again!

For me it has to be Manchester. Although several other towns and cities in the NW offer good venues, services, education and variety. It also has a Royal College. The cost of living is cheaper than London and the people in general are less pretentious and a bit harder. (Less susceptable to jessyness) Only joking there. For young people it is easier to access as the travel systems are less congested and there is more of a safe feeling, but that maybe me.
Opportunities for young players I feel is better up here, there is less competition for places although competition is stiff. Variety exists to the same extent as it does in the capital, just on a smaller scale.

When I read a comment such as this I wonder how much experience the person making it has of London's public transport system. I have spent more time in Manchester than I have in any other part of the UK apart from my native London and Oxford, where I went to university, and my experience suggested that London's public transportation system was very much superior. Public transportation in London comprises 357 railway stations, 270 underground stations (and at 250 miles in length the second longest in the world, beaten by the Shanghai Metro at 264 miles), 45 light railway stations, 39 tramlink stations, 5 river bus services, more than 700 bus routes serving some 19,500 bus stops and stations, and 8,300 bicycles serving 15,000 docking points, with Crossrail currently under construction. Only once have I wimped out and taken a minicab. I had to get to East Croydon station in the middle of the night to catch a train to Gatwick Airport for an early flight. Even then I was just being lazy and didn't actually need to use a minicab. In fact, the journey would have taken less than 90 minutes by two night buses. Yes, at certain times of the day and on certain days of the week public transportation in London gets very busy, but public transportation in London is just on a different scale compared with other cities in the UK. Admitted that this is somewhat off-topic, but I feel that people often criticise London's public transportation system without fully appreciating what an amazing thing it is.

What about Cambridge? Does it deserve its reputation for being the UK's early music capital?

I suppose it depends on which type of music you enjoy. London certainly has the lion's share, but it is also incredibly expensive! I would agree that the public transport system is amazing, but it is also ridiculously expensive for an occasional visitor who doesn't have an Oyster Card. Indeed, it cost us almost as much to cross London by tube as it had cost us to travel 250 miles from the north east! Doesn't this defeat the object of a 'public' transport system?

I am off topic now, but for me, Newcastle and Durham provide nearly all of the music that I enjoy, and all of exceptional calibre. Edinburgh, Glasgow, Manchester and Liverpool are also within easy reach, and are much easier to access than London.

SB

I'm reminded of an interesting letter to the Grauniad's Private Lives column, in which one of the respondents talked up Devon's cultural merits:


Link

That is an interesting viewpoint. I am sure it would be true to say that many more artists and composers of all genres have been inspired by seascapes and the countryside than by any city.

I would never want to move to London as the quality of life is so much better here in the open spaces of Co. Durham, whilst the cost of living is also much lower. London is only two and a half hours away by train, so we can easily get there if we really want to. (I have to say that the sight of Kings Cross station slipping away from my carriage window is one of my favourite views of London. )

However, I do sometimes think it would be good to live closer to a regional city like Newcastle so we didn't have to travel quite so far to do what we enjoy. Village life is very pleasant in most respects, but it can also be very limiting.

SB

Hmm. They might be inspired by Devon (and I can understand why) but that doesn't mean anyone actually performs there. Well not on the scale of London anyway.

St George's is indeed a wonderful venue, I've performed there several times as my school held (probably still hold) their Easter concert there. Bristol Cathedral has free lunchtime recitals once a week as well as other concerts and most of the major venues are in the city centre so they're fairly straightforward to get to on public transport. London and Birmingham are an hour and a half away by train and you can get to Cardiff in 40 minutes. The last train back from London (Paddington) is 11.30pm so it might be a push depending where you are but is at least feasible, as long as you're not wanting a bus at the other end!

The first time I've read the words "cultural stimulation" and "Chris Martin" in the same paragraph!

I'd say Oxford, Cambridge, York, and perhaps Birmingham, all have something of a claim, as does London. What criteria would one be applying? I suppose ensembles based in the city, concerts taking place, festivals, and emphasis on early music in university departments and conservatoires. Just because an ensemble might be based in a particular city I wonder to what extent that really impacts on that city. The Sixteen, for example, are based in Oxford, but most of their concerts take place elsewhere, fairly evenly spread across the country. Do they really contribute much to early music in Oxford? I suspect not much. Oxford and Cambridge will always be major hubs for choral music as they are the training grounds for most of the best choral singers in the country, and this naturally impacts on early music. I suppose early music has a bit of a donnish image, which perhaps explains at least in part why it has major bases in university cities. Also, early music ensembles tend to be quite small, so they can realistically be based in small cities. I would guess that the largest amount of early music in terms of number of performances per year must take place in London, but that is not quite the same as defining an early music capital for the country. If there is such a capital outside of the actual capital then I'd think that the best contenders would be those suggested at the beginning of this post.

Newcastle (although the Sage is ,geographically speaking, in Gateshead) is fantastic and improving all the time.

Unfortunately the popularity of the Sage has meant that the City Hall is rarely used for classical music events nowadays, but it has a splendid H & H pipe organ, which is in need of a major overhaul. Hopefully the money will be found at some point.

We were last there in September 2010 for the Heritage Open Day, which was probably the last time the organ will be heard in public until it is restored.

SB

yes the City Hall does seem to have been forgotten. The acoustics are far superior in the Sage but hopefully if the Organ is restored it could be used for a bit more classical music as The Sage doesn't have one.

I believe the Sage was designed with space for a large pipe organ, but the funds have never been available to install one. Let's just hope they don't install a 'toaster' instead.

I did hear that somebody from Japan wanted to buy the City Hall organ for a large sum of money, but a preservation order was slapped on it in the nick of time. Overhaul is likely to cost at least half a million pounds, so I fear we will have a long wait.

SB