I was struck by the damage on the lips of some of the brass players in the BBC YMOY competition. I feel very strongly that music should not cause physical injury. Yes there will always be repetitive strain injuries, and I'm not sure how I feel about that, but it seems contradictory that in order to entertain at the top levels, musicians face many physical discomforts. In order to produce something so beautiful they must endure much pain. Seems contradictory.

The message that I got, loud and clear, was not to allow my children to play such an instrument other than French horn as it's mouth piece seemed much smaller.

I think the red marks we saw are only temporary - they all look OK in their interviews, no? I've never heard of any permanent damage from playing a brass instrument. I'm just watching the final now - amazing tuba player, and some interesting effects from the horn player too.....

And I currently have a small red mark just below my bottom lip as I've just spent a little over an hour practising clarinet. It's not permanent nor is it damage.

How can you say it's not damage? That doesn't make logical sense. It may not be permanent but you have caused some damage, however minor, to your bottom lip!

whilst most of the brass players I know get some marks just after a long playing session they all recover pretty quickly.



Me too. Unless I play a truely ludicrous amount it is mild discomfort and worth it for the pleasure I get from playing.

Well, it doesn't hurt or even feel uncomfortable.
So if I lean on something for too long and get a temporary red mark or imprint or if my hand or foot 'goes to sleep' is that damage which should also be avoided at all cost?

My ex is a professional brass player and has no scars or permanent damage (well, not on his lip....). He says "black swimmers" are far more scary than a sore lip. Lip fatigue is a problem which is why people are employed as "bumpers" for the real tests of stamina in the orchestral repertoire.

After a day's teaching my ears hurt. I do hope this isn't permanent damage.

Raised-Eyebrow-Bag x

By this reasoning is there any instrument that doesn't cause damage at least by the time you are competent enough to need to practice for longer?

Black swimmers?

Apparently this is the name for a rather nasty-sounding experience....when playing for a while up the top end of the register the blood supply is cut off to the brain. When the player stops playing the blood goes WHOOSH and ex says it feels like you're hit on the back of the head really sharply...

Makes me glad to be a flautist...

Bx

I used to be a horn student, frequently was playing for hours with red marks on lips, and calluses on left hand. No longer a horn player or horn student, but have no marks on lips or calluses on left hand any more. I cannot physically tell that I used to be a horn player, except maybe my left hand is a bit more stretchy, but that's an advantage now as a pianist.

I wouldn't say that playing horn was painful - maybe uncomfortable but not painful, same as when I go for yoga class I can definitely feel the stretch and I might be a bit achy afterwards but not in a damaging way.

It's true that you do need a good teacher (whether of horn or yoga) in order to know what is a damaging sort of discomfort. I know my body quite well so I can tell in yoga class when to stop.

Have just been playing piano - left arm definitely more tired. But it's still the sort of tired that means I've had a good go at it and hopefully will see technical improvement in a couple of days. If I had ever used just discomfort (not pain) as any sort of indicator of when I should stop practising either horn or piano, I'd never have got anywhere.

Now that does sound rather dangerous!

Off-topic but chuffed to see Christopher Dunn in the finals. I taught him Kodaly at Guildhall between the ages of 4 and 11. He was a violinist in those days!!

I think Rosie91 was at school with him, too...

and like the ex used too much pressure when playing in the extreme register. No need for that to happen if good technique is applied (i.e. non pressure)

I you want to see real damage caused by brass playing, take a look at a close up photo of Louis Armstrong.

KixMusic - I will pass on your good advice.

Said ex is currently on tour with The English Baroque Soloists I believe.

Bows-Out-Gracefully-From-Thread-Bag x

For me, he was by far the most musical out of the group. He had a depth of appreciation of the music which I didn't find in any of the others. Overall I wasn't convinced his programme was in quite the right order and there were obviously some technique issues in the RVW which was a pity.

In which case said ex will be playing on period instruments which is a completely different ballgame.

My post was to highlight that such an experience on a bog-standard brass instrument in general IS dangerous and not necessary if good technique is applied. "Black swimmers" (not that I've ever heard it called that down here) are NOT par for the course if you are a brass player they could be detrimental to a player's long term health - much more so than the red mark that most players get after playing for a prolonged period of time.

I do agree with the op though that it did look quite unsightly on the BBC YM programme - in particular the tuba player seemed to be in a bit of discomfort but given this was filmed some weeks ago when the weather was cold and windy the lad could simply have been suffering from chapped lips perhaps? When I suffer from chapped lips I get quite a strong red mark from the mouthpiece that I don't get much at other times and because of my pale complexion it can look like I am damaging my lip. The tuba player seemed to be quite pale too.

My son's oboist friend tells me that when she started playing as a junior it was quite common for her to faint in lessons! It didn't put her off though.

I was sorry that the French Horn player didn't win. I love French horn and would love to see a horn player win the whole competition. It's such a difficult instrument to master.

It is, but totally avoidable.

I think Louis had a bad technique however, such as puffing the cheeks whilst playing

Or at least go light headed. Very common until you sort out the breathing, but then shouldn't be a problem.


Yes. Much to the detriment of his career.

Playing like that made Louis' voice go all gravelly

I wonder if he trained his high register by lifting weights?

You would not allow your children to play certain musical instruments because of fear of injury? This seems to be something of an extreme response. Might I suggest that you seriously consider banning them from playing the violin and viola? Many, perhaps most, of my peers who played the violin and/or viola had permanent red marks on their necks (permanent until they took a long break from playing, which they would of course never do). To ban children from playing violin/viola would seem ridiculous to me, but if you are worried about physical injury then I would suggest that these instruments must be ruled out too. Andr?s Schiff used to practise the piano until his fingers bled. One must begin to wonder whether the piano has to be added to the list of instruments that your children cannot play. The harp is certainly hard on the fingers, as can be the guitar.

I wonder how you feel about sport? I can't think of any sports that carry no risk at all of physical injury. I was a rower at Oxford, and if you saw the state of many rowers' hands I think you'd forbid your children from taking up rowing too.

A lot of activities that are worth doing come at a price to one's physical or mental comfort, but provided one is not actually incapacitated by something then I see no reason to prevent a child from taking it up (and musical instruments generally need to be taken up in childhood if one is ever going to reach a really high standard). I would not allow a child of mine to take up boxing. After all, representative bodies of the medical profession in the UK, the USA, Canada, and Australia have all recommended that it be banned, and indeed several countries have banned it. It is a sport in which the aim is to cause injury. But if a child wants to take up the tuba or rowing I would just let them give it a go, and if they don't like it they can always give up. I think it would just be ridiculous to draw up a list of musical instruments which children should not be allowed to play.

I know someone who had a stroke whilst at a music college, when he was 20, caused by playing the oboe. dangerous instrument....He's now a composer.... but not an oboist....He lost the use of one side of his body.

Ahem. All sorts of physical and mental conditions have been "caused" by the oboe. Are you sure there wasn't a stroke waiting to happen? Some underlying medical condition perhaps?

Apparently wrong technique came into it and there was an underlying undiagnosed condition that made it worse... but apparently if he'd played the violin he'd have been fine........I've known the boy and family for years.... The incorrect technique thing was something his mother alluded to- I have no evidence of this!

I spoke to a friend yesterday whose husband is a professional brass player and her daughter is at a specialist music school playing brass. Her husband has had to have two operations on his lip and mouth because of the damage caused by brass playing.

Ah well - there you go everyone - that settles it.
Nothing like one isolated episode to prove a theory

Two different things going on here:

Pressure of the mouthpiece on the face - that is avoidable to a degree (though the 'non-pressure' is a misnomer, as you need a certain amount of pressure to avoid air leakage between the lips and the mouthpiece)

Air pressure inside the player - totally unavoidable - one of the prerequisites of playing a brass instrument, especially the trumpet in the high register. That's not to say that some players might overdo it, but it is necessary. If Wikpedia is to be believed, the typical air pressure a normal person can exert is 1.4psi, and a trumpet player playing high staccato notes is 1.9psi. Then imagine doing that for a long extended high fortissimo passage, and you're asking your body to do something that it wasn't designed for. And in some people, at certain times, that can have unintended consequences. Even in experienced brass players with good technique. Even ones who play period instruments.

I wonder if some people are just better suited to different instruments and so would have to work less hard to get good on them? That isn't a "fact" couched as a question, it's a real one. So maybe people who weren't naturally made to play certain things might have to work very much harder to the point of damage, to get to the same level as others more naturally gifted.

For what it's worth, I've got quite a few professional musician brass player friends who have never had to have any sort of operation or medical treatment for injuries resulting from brass playing. Another anecdote to even out the balance?

Edit - the only brass player friend I know who had surgery to do with brass playing had it to repair a muscle tear in the lip that happened for some other reason.

1 person that you know has had damage but thousands of brass players don't as with good technique pressure to the lip is minimised. Your friend's husband may well have had an underlying condition or poor technique or anything, and presumably they don't see brass playing as a danger as they have allowed their daughter to attend a specialist music school playing brass

You could be right corenfa. I mean, if you look in the world of sports, you can see that some sports better suit certain physiques than others. A jockey is not likely suited to power lifting, for example.
To an extent, characteristics can be developed. If you are a short and small person, that doesn't mean you can't lift weights - you can learn to lift weights, but you will probably never lift weights like Arnie. while Mr Schwarznegger possibly could have lost weight (rather than gained muscle) to go all lithe and ride in horse races, but his height and build would probably put him at a disadvantage to an average jockey.

As different musical instruments make different physical demands, then people could easily be suited more to one than another. The differences may not be as extreme as the example I've given, and it would be an extreme case to say 'you will never be able to paly instrument X due to a physical limitation', but I don't see why you can't be suited to one thing more than another. If you have a smaller lung capacity, for example, perhaps brass and woodwind won't suit you so well...

I'll never be a great pianist, because I have small hands and can't reach an octave. My wind playing and singing aren't so great either, due to combination of asthma and snotty-nose inducing allergies (what breathing points are required changes every day!). The RSI in my right write probably rules out strings, and I found playing the guitar just too uncomfortable - I don't like mutilating my fingertips if I can help it!

Clearly, I am just not cut out to be a musician!

More to the point in question, boyfriend-one used to use lip salve for chapping which came as a result of prolonged brass playing. Frankly, though, I did much more damage to his poor lips when we first started going out, and we discovered how much fun kissing was!

Obviously bad technique. You should have tried the non-pressure method.

I was a teenager! What did I care about technique?

Absolutely. Not to mention the massive self-inflicted damage done by thousands of people each year in the name of the London Marathon.


I had such a mark for several years when at high school, and thought it to be a badge of honour. After a few months with a new teacher at university, and a complete technique overhaul, it disappeared, despite doing more playing than ever and still having the same violin and chinrest. The same happened to several of my peers, which led me to suspect that a lot of these marks are not inevitable results of playing the instrument.

Regarding the tuba player's lips, I suspect the multiphonics he was playing would cause all sorts of strains on the lips that normal playing would not.

My uncle is a professional brass player (LSO, London Philharmonic, tutor at the RAM...) and has reached his early 80s without ever having a problem with his mouth at all. My father played a lot of brass up to the age of about 40 and the only operation he ever had to have on his lip was when he got hit in the mouth with a cricket ball.

They both have/had, as far as I can remember, well-shaped mouths but thin-lipped rather than thicker-lipped. I have no idea whether that has anything to do with it, but it might.

Come to think of it, my father was also rather thick-skinned - perhaps this applied to his lips as well