I'm trying to organize a new passport for a very elderly relative. The first set of photos were turned down because he wore his glasses (mea culpa) but also, the Post Office official warned me, the replacment set would need endorsing because his appearance had changed since his last passport. Bit mystifying that: few more wrinkles maybe, marginally less hair - main change I could spot was that he looked cheerful in the old one... not allowed to do that now. Could be an ongoing problem then.

Nevertheless, presented myself with new photos, duly endorsed and appropriate bit of form filled in and signed by person of repute. To be sent back to square 1. He was leaning too much to the side this time (well he does, that's how he'll look to any border control official). And the countersigner had used a blue pen. I looked closely. It looked like black biro to me. But not black enough apparently.

So I have a new form, duly filled in by me this time with Croydon spelt correctly - HA nobody else spotted that - would someone have done eventually or are they all too busy checking vertical alignments and pen colours to bother? Now I am wondering how to break the news to the old chap that he needs to under go trial by photographer yet again. And then to persuade his countersigner to check the pantone quality of his pen.

Some of these restrictions are ridiculous. You're not allowed to smile. Well, I'd almost certainly be smiling at anyone who checked my passport. I wouldn't look like the miserable old cow who's staring out of the picture in it.

Oh dear. I'm just about to apply for two new family passports.

Heaven help me.

You have my sympathy. I have over the last 15 years jumped through all the hoops to get passports for the children. To my eyes it was obvious that child A was still child A only bigger, but no, we had to get all the signatures etc done again.

The things that I found hard were some of the questions about applicants/guardians and who was to sign where. (Of course that wouldn't apply to you) Then we had a mess where the dates didn't match/one part was signed before another.

Happily, they're both large enough now to fill in their own forms and can jump through the hoops themselves.

Best of luck with your continuing experience.

This is one of the kinds of reasons why countries go broke. They overload themselves with stupid administration and then collapse uner the weight of it. Listener, you have my sympathy too!!

Some while ago a French farmer took his shot gun and shot an inspector visiting his farm. I can't remember if it was a tax inspector or a hygiene inspector or what. Now I am not advocating the murder of civil servants but there was a lot of sympathy here for the farmer who acted out of unbearable and longstanding frustration.

Bit late now for me to give advice, but for anyone else going through the procedure: go to a professional photographer to get the photos done. If doing them for passports, they should know the rules about what size the head has to be, how much in the way of facial expression you can get away with, and all the stuff about ears, headgear, and precise angle of taking. I also have been known to pick up two of the forms, one to practise on, but it's a bit mean to ask a countersignatory to practise first too .

The other huge bugbear is the signatures - they must, must, must be within the box provided and may not even touch the edges. I'm so lucky to have had access to lots of potential countersignatories, but doctors have now been taken off the official list, and I would also point out that in my practice, we don't do passports because we have to put our own passport numbers on and don't feel comfortable doing so. I have in the past been asked to sign forms of which I was suspicious - it appeared to me they could have been used to get UK citizenship via Irish citizenship by folks from somewhere else entirely and I didn't want any part of that: I was glad to be able to say no.

Off topic (sorry), but I recently attempted to apply for a job in France. Before proceeding with the application and bothering my current employees for references, etc., I wanted some assurance that my qualifications were potentially sufficient. (They were looking for an anglophone teacher, so it was reasonable to assume they would get some UK applicants.) It didn't seem to make any difference how many times I asked, or how I phrased it, I could not get the administrator / HR person to stop repeating her mantra of "Bac + 5", no matter how often I told her that five-year degrees (at least in the arts) didn't exist in the UK. In the end I gave up.

Just because the Post Office doesn't like the photos doesn't necessarily mean the Passport Office will object. When I replaced one of my children's passports last year the lady checking it at the Post Office counter warned me the application might get rejected because of child's change in appearance. I elected to go ahead anyway, and sure enough the application went through with no further problem.

Bac + 5 is fairly new in France too. It is the result of a Lisbon agreement which is referred to in short-hand as 3/5/8.
3= an undergraduate degree
5 = a masters degree
8 = a PhD.

So for this particular job, what she was really asing for was if you had a masters.

Since January 1991, France has recognised UK degrees.

Hmm that doesn't bode well for my passport update next year. I showed my driving licence to a policeman a couple of weeks ago (no I hadn't been naughty it was to do with my car break in) and he commented how much I'd changed from the photo. Oh well as I looked like an axe murderer on the last one at least the grumpy expression will be the same!

I have a USA Green Card, on which I had to pin my hair back and pose in 3/4 profile to show my ear

Makes some sort of sense, the shape of ears are fairly unique to an individual, though the ear lobe does get longer with age.

The photo booths are quite good too; last time I needed a new passport, I had the photos taken by a professional photographer. I had further photos taken in a booth because I needed a visa too. The booth showed which of the photos taken were acceptable for a passport - and they were better photos too (ie looked more like me).

Hope it gets sorted soon, Listener


I always maintain that if you look like your passport photo, you definitely need the holiday!


A friend of mine provided a copy of his gun licence as proof of ID. The original wasn't particularly flattering, and the copy was downright scary

I had to renew my passport earlier this year and I hate the photo restrictions. I would love to know why you are not allowed to smile. I got warned my application might get rejected because of my change in appearance (about several stone heavier) but I had the photo booth shouting instructions at me not to smile, not to wear glasses, not to have hair on my face etc. In the end, it took just over a week for them to process my passport renewal - they probably thought I looked so miserable I was in need of a holiday!

That's interesting; thanks. I did say that I had a Master's, but that still didn't seem to elicit a conclusive answer.


That would probably not be my idea of a "better" photo!

I'm puzzled to hear the bit about not wearing glasses - I'd be so handicapped without mine that I'd not be able to operate any sort of photobooth with them off, and anyway, glasses are part of what I look like. I thought it was just that the frames were not allowed to overlap the eyes in any way? The other advantage of my photographer was that he showed me the "proofs" for approval before printing, so I got to choose which shot to use.
The reason for not smiling is that any facial expression at all changes the biometrics and makes the photographs harder for electronic recognition software to process and recognise - since we'd all ideally like to spend as little time as possible being processed through security, I guess it might be thought reasonable to give us this rather complicated hoop to jump through well away from the airport, especially as we only have to do so every five or ten years?

Thank you everyone for your support and suggestions. Anacrusis, thanks especially for yours and for explanations that make the otherwise ludicrous-seeming regulations understandable. Dear partner came through the speed-check (whatever they call it) at Heathrow Terminal 5 at the weekend when the normal queue was horrendous (I thought Terminal 5 was OK eek, horror) and he got through in 10 minutes so maybe all this trauma is going to be worth it. Well, for frequent flyers anyway.

Glasses - me too, bats laugh at me. I'm sure my passport has me in glasses and it's not very old. Maybe it's something to do with the eye recognition stuff, so maybe the ?no glasses? is new? I should get out the instructions and look what they say but as the P Office said ?no glasses? if it doesn?t say that in the booklet I shall get cross, so best left.

My guess is that this is probably to prevent light reflections covering the eyes, although I do agree this is madness - I'm fairly sure one of my old passports has a photo of me with light reflection on the edge of one lens, and I travelled on that without problems several times before it expired!

Glasses are part of me too - I never wear contacts so if places are likely to be fussed about a change of appearance then technically I should be allowed to wear glasses on my photo. Even if I were able to travel on my passport the same day as the photo was taken, I should theoretically still class as having had a 'change of appearance'!!

Well you may have bad eyesight, but you must have pretty good hearing if you can hear bats' laughter!

For what it's worth I managed to use ordinary passport photos from a photo booth last time I renewed my passport. Perhaps I was just lucky.

But they only give you a limited number of previews all of which were said to be unacceptable.
Ours were accepted without any bother though but it does seem odd that they actually want the photo in your passport not to look like you....

I went to a local photographer for my new passport photographs. The lady there was very helpful and professional, and the photograph cost me less than a photo booth!

I suspect the idea of not smiling on passport photographs is so that they match your expression at the Passport Control desk; after two hours on a Cryanair flight, having been herded off the plane with an electric cattle prod, and having lost the luggage that cost so much to take on the plane with you.





A farmer not far from here sprayed council offices and a branch of HSBC bank with manure in protest at unnecessary bureaucracy. Sadly, I think he too later shot a council employee out of sheer frustration with 'the system'.

I use my passport frequently, so I had to pay to make an appointment as the Passport Office to get it renewed, which I think cost me GBP 135 or so. (You would think they would give them to people who are exporting British goods and services.)

However, my experience of the Passport Office was stereotypical of the kind of bureaucracy and overstaffing that we hear about in government offices:

Firstly, there were two very large ladies operating an airport style security check point which customers had to pass through to enter the building. We are constantly told by government to reduce our energy consumption, (and are taxed to do so), yet the temperature in the security office was positively tropical, and the blow heater above the door nearly burnt the remaining hair from my head.

Next, having found the passport department I had to produce my paperwork to be given a raffle ticket, and was told to wait my turn in the waiting area. (There were no other customers at this time.)

After a wait of a few minutes I was called to one of the 12 Passport Officers' desks, all of which were staffed. My documents were checked, stamped, stamped again, and stamped once more for luck. I was told to go back to the waiting area to be called to the cashiers.

There were two cashiers on duty, one of which took my card payment. They told me to go back to the waiting area and await a call back to one of the Passport Officers' desks.

After a few minutes wait I was called back to the Passport Officer to provide my proof of payment. (Why don't the Passport Officers' desks have card terminals? Would any private enterprise operate this way?)

I was then told that my passport would be sent out by post that day, but I could not collect it myself.

Meanwhile, air travellers face delays of two hours of more at Passport Control because of "staff shortages".

SB

*sigh*

If that private enterprise were in Hungary, then it would most certainly operate that way. I have no idea how they manage to keep the costs so low.

Just renewed mine. The photo was dreadful but was acceptable to the passport office, as I got my new passport in 10 days! I can go abroad until May 2022!

I think it's far more likely that you'll have no problems rather than a load of difficulties, but sympathies to those of you who have had problems.

It is much the same in Turkey, and simply reflects the low wages paid in such countries.

By contrst, it seems to me that the whole raison d'?tre of the UK Passport Office is to employ as many staff as possible. Serving British citizens is a long way down their list of priorities. Inefficiency is a given

The Passport Office was clearly far from busy when I renewed, (although I accept they may be busier at other times). Yet, when I telephoned for an appointment at 9 O'clock in the morning there was no way they could offer me a same-day appointment. The 'system' just would not allow it, and the 'Appointments Officer' could not, or would not override this.

Right now I could book a flight to almost anywhere in the world departing this morning. (I think the usual limit is two and a half hours.) Yet, the local Passport Office needs a minimum of 24 hours notice to renew a passport.

(On a related note, I realised only recently that I need to renew my UK driving licence in September this year; even though it is valid until 2026 or whenever when I reach 70 years of age. The reason is that the photograph must be renewed, even if your appearance is unchanged.)

SB

That's really good news SB. I thought I was stuck looking like something that escaped from the monkey house at the zoo until my 70th birthday!

I'm fortunate to have my paper driving licence still. It is looking a little worn round the edges but is all in one piece when unfolded. I regard it as a challenge to make it last until I'm 70 without having one of these new fangled 2 piece jobs where, it seems to me, it's so easy to lose the paper bit! I didn't realise that you had to have the photo renewed on the picture ones. Is this a money making enterprise?

Never had any such problems at the passport office itself, and I am smiling on my passport photo. I think you have some over-enthusiastic staff (or jobsworths) at the Post Office you are using.

But it is quite reasonable of the passport authorities to require a photo without spectacles. They are not part of you, and they do alter your appearance in several ways, for example enlarging or reducing the apparent size of your eyes.

It is true; Passport Officers routinely ask passengers to remove glasses and hats at Passport Control. I think the electronic thingumies do too, but I have not seen them working at any UK airport I have passed through since I got my new passport last year.

SB

Ah well, 'tis three years since I got my biometric passport, with specs firmly in situ, correcting serious shortsightedness (-8 dioptres of it): yes, the lenses will make eyes appear smaller, but they don't change the distance between pupils, which is what the biometrics thingies measure, so I'm still confused. Maybe it has to do with the heaviness of frames - mine are rimless - or maybe it's a rule-change.

Oddly enough, the only place you will ever need the paper licence is in the UK. Car hire companies routinely ask for it to check how many points you have.

I don't know whether the paper licence is valid abroad, but I have only ever had to show my photo card licence when outside of the UK.

SB

It isn't a rule change. See here

It's merely a recommendation. The only rules are that the photo must :

"- be taken with your eyes open and clearly visible
(no sunglasses or tinted glasses and no hair across
your eyes)
- be free from reflection or glare on your glasses,
and frames must not cover your eyes. We
recommend that if possible, you remove glasses
for your photo"

My passport was renewed in 2008 with glasses and with quite a poor definition photo, to boot.

If I had to take my glasses off for a photo, I would be unable to operate a photo booth or to focus on a photographer (have a feeling one of the numbers on my prescription is over -10!). My focal distance is about 2.5 inches from the end of my nose.

Maybe that's why - to make it more difficult for people attempting to flee the country, or just to leave in general. If they make it so incredibly awkward and irritating to leave then more people will stay in the country, perhaps they're also the people making all these "go on holiday in the UK" adverts. Part of the economic recovery strategy, along with creating more and more jobs until all the 2.63 million unemployed people can work in the Passport Office.


Same with my mum, I don't know what her focal length is because she's lost the bit of paper since she last went to the opticians but last time she did ask if it was just time to give up and get a white stick and a labrador. They said "not quite."