Should you only sit grade 8 when you know there is a very high chance that a distinction will be achieved? There will be musicians for whom this would be a mammoth task but if a child was capable of getting a comfortable pass, would it be better to wait up to two years until they were beyond distinction level? How are resits viewed by conservatoires if a child wishes to gain a distinction at a later date?

If that were the case, then the pass mark should be set at distinction level, and we would scrap the ordinary pass and merit grades. There is no correct answer. It all depends on the student, their musical ambitions, and their reason for takling the exam.

I know that those few instrumentalists hoping to make careers as professional performers are entering a very competitive arena, but does competition in musical performance ("X got a distinction, Y "" only" achieved a pass") really have to be introduced so early, for everyone??

Conservatoires will judge a performer on what they do in audition as a general rule, not whether they have grade 8 distinction. Indeed, many entrants nowadays will be perfoming beyond this standard.

I find this 'get grade 8 distinction at all costs' attitude that is getting more prevalent terribly sad. Whatever level of grade 8 pass you get, it's still a fine, fine achievement. And it's interesting that it tends to be only the graded exams that suffer from this (music wise), not the diplomas...

Sorry, I don't quite understand what you mean. My question is not relating to comparing other students - I have no interest in the grade or result of other performers. My son does want to go to music college though and as we are not exam focused I just want to know if it's always better to wait for a distinction. I'm not quite sure how it would work though. Would he continue to play the same pieces for years until they were distinction level? This would bore him.

It all depends.....

Is there any pressing need to do the exam yet?

If I thought my child was capable of a distinction, I'd probably wait, unless they wanted to do the exam now. DD has 3x 8s, no distinctions, but she's happy and moving on with her music. Not interested in conservatoire and happily getting plenty of gigs. No-one ever asks about exams....

If your child is planning to apply to conservatoire etc, then no harm in aiming for D but the audition and the ability to play consistently at that standard, or beyond, will be more important. Not knocking a pass at any level, but selective processes will tend to favour higher marks over higher grades eg distinction at grade 6 arguably shows more promise than a pass at grade 8, if you see what I mean. That said, exams greatly over-rated as a benchmark of true achievement/ potential IMHO!

The sensible thing to do might be to continue exploring lots of different repertoire until he is ready to do the exam. Surely no one would suggest banging on at the same exam pieces for several years? Highly unlikely to achieve he desired result, anyway.

My take on this is that if a teacher knows that a child has great potential they shouldn't be pushing them through exams when they are only capable of playing the notes; they should be nurturing that potential and getting the very best out of the student. So, if I had a very bright pupil who could clearly get the notes under their belt and was rushing through more advanced pieces, but I suspected they were going to be REALLY REALLY good in a couple of years, I would not just push them in for an exam because they were learning the pieces - I would work on technique and musicality, and then enter them for the exam when they had developed their potential sufficiently so that they would get the mark that reflects their true ability.

No one ever needs to know about a resit; but I can't imagine any child putting up with having to do one when they passed the first time!



No teacher would do that, surely? They would ensure that the all round playing ability was at distinction level - then the pieces would be too! I suppose I spent about 9 months maturing my G8 pieces then changed my mind in the summer hols and went for two different ones, which I got to distinction standard in a term.

As an example, DS1's piano teacher chooses pieces to work on technical aspects, then moves on when the aims have been achieved. DS might still get them out and play them, and he's often amazed at the fact that they are better even when they've had a rest, because his all round skills have improved.

Yes that would be very boring and very counter productive I think. If he wanted to wait then I would hope his teacher would put the exam pieces aside and work on different reportoire to raise the general standard of his playing. The only importance of a distinction at Grade 8 is the value you personally place on it. Conservatoires are uninterested in your exam results and base their decision on auditions. After all does a Grade 8 distinction at age 16 mean that you are a better player than someone who had a good solid pass at age 14? No of course not, and neither of them predicts how good a player you will be at age 18 and the Consevartoires are fully aware of that (many of them being ABRSM examiners themselves!).

S/he doesn't have to stick to Grade 8 level pieces until he takes Grade 8. You said s/he's not exam focused so hopefully has a teacher with a similar attitude. S/he can work on technique and improving playing - studies and more difficult pieces, set suitable goals, whole concertos and so on - and take the exam when it suits him/her - or not at all. Explore the repetopire, look for performance opps. Sound more fun than whacking through grades apart from anything else!

The only things to beware: (i) that 'Grade 8' doesn't become a larger and larger issue because of a perception that the mark should be higher and higher the longer s/he leaves it, (ii) the perception of other students if/when s/he finally gets to do it ("Grade 8? How sweet!"). Of course s/he could get it out of the way, not worry about the result, and use the diploma system to advance his/her playing; once you have a diploma no one is very worried about a grade results (unless you've done spectacularly in which case you keep it in your CV for ever!), but if s/he's not exam oriented that wouldn't be ideal.

[Oops, lots of good advice posted while typing this]

All I can say is that, of the children we know, none has taken grade 8 until they are comfortably past the necessary standard so that a distinction is a given and requires little effort because they are already way past the standard.

I think - I could be wrong - that grade 8 is the exam that has the highest proportion of distinctions?

Even when I was at school many years ago, people tended to wait for several years before doing grade 8. I remember our music scholars didn't take it until they were in the sixth form.

Whether it is important to get a distinction, I would say not for the reasons already discussed above. But people like to get a distinction at grade 8.

It would bore anyone! I think that this misses the point though. Whether someone plays at distinction level isn't necessarily because they spend a long time and put a lof of effort into learning the exam pieces. It's surely dependent on the work and prep which has gone in before that on a whole host of other things - pieces, scales, technique, musicianship etc. There's a subtle difference between someone having to learn the exam pieces because they're not quite at that standard, and someone learning them who's already reached that standard. The latter may have spent longer on other things, but there's likely to have been more variety; the former is likely to have to spend more time on the exam pieces, hence, boredom sets in.

I'm pretty sure that this 'quest' for distinctions is a relatively new thing. When I was at school, we were all sufficiently pleased to pass - after all, the past mark is considerably higher than most exams these days (often 40%) - if the average mark is still around 117, that's 78% and to my mind, that's a superb result in itself. I didn't get a merit until Grade 5, and I only passed Grade 8. I always worked to do the best I could, but I never set out to 'try' and get a merit or a distinction. We always considered these to be a bonus, particularly at the higher grades. There are a lot of things which make someone a 'distinction candidate', and a good proportion of these are not related to playing the pieces.

I agree with others that for music college entry, whether he's got a piece of paper which says 'Grade 8 with distinction' will be largely irrelevant. Successful entry to music college is about a lot more than just performing excellence on one instrument.

Lots of very good responses, thank you.

We are currently facing some teacher issues. Not with a teacher but trying to organise a regular one over the next 1/2 years - long story. If he continues to work and practice in the way he is doing then he could be grade 8 pass level by the summer of next year and if we still haven't got a regular teacher by then I wondered if he should sit it or leave it. He really isn't exam oriented but without a goal, other than local music groups, he may lose focus.

He could always sit the exam and see how it went. It would be useful experience and good to have a relatively short term goal.

If your son is aiming for conservatoire application, then I would say that you need to be looking for a good teacher with whom he can build a good relationship and who can support him in his aim.

I would say leave it but find him other goals such as performances, festivals, auditions. Or go back and do the grade below if he hasn't done it yet but aim for a really high mark in the 140s. The teacher will advise in any case when you find one.

The term "better" is what confused me. It is a relative term, not an absoute. Better FOR what or better THAN what.

But now it is clear. What you are asking is, does a distinction at Grade 8 improve your son's chances of geting into music college? Well it is unlikely to do any harm!

Whether it will really improve his chances of getting into a music college or conservatoire depends on the policy of the colleges that he intends to apply to. The few conservatoires that I know well do not require you to have passed ANY grade exam. They go entirely on the audition and interview. Others may differ.

I would leave it. My daughter got a high merit in her grade 8 on her first instrument, and distinctions in grade 8 on her other two instruments. Every time she applies for something that asks for grade 8 distinction or equivalent she has to get a letter of support from her teacher to prove that she is this level.

Looking at your queries I would say if the application to a conservatoire is the goal, then you should be focussing your energy on finding a teacher who will prepare him for a successsful audition to same. the question that you should ask the potential teacher, "can you assist with preparing my son for successful entry to a conservatoire?"

However taking a Grade 8 exam can be quite a good experience and gaining a distinction is very good for moral. No one wants to be playing the same pieces over a lengthy period of time, so I am not in favor of delaying entry just to et the distinition. In my case the girls got the distictions in G8, but they practised like mad in the last month knowing thats what they wanted.

But do remember the conservatoire auditions ask for Grade 8 standard not a Grace 8 distintion on paper.

I'm sorry to hear you're having teacher trouble at the moment, but I think that getting the right teacher now is probably more important than any considerations about standards, exams, distinctions etc. My experience is that these days, most conservatoire entrants are playing easily beyond Grade 8 distinction standard anyway.

Sadly, and however much we wish it were otherwise, the answer today seems to be 'yes'.

If you are lucky enough to have a child who is oblivious to grades, results, ranking and peer competition, cherish them. If you're like the rest of us, get ready to catch them when they occasionally slip off the high wire.

I'm with Baz here - conservatoires aren't interested particularly in the route in, they will just judge on what they hear on the day of the audition. More universities are now asking for Grade 8 as a prerequisite but the conservatoires will expect performance far beyond that.

The majority of pieces set for the higher grades are bog-standard repertoire tunes so why not learn the lot then take your pick when it is TIME for Grade 8? To the OP - get the teacher thing sorted soon because with them onside it will help give your offspring structure and focus.

Good luck.

Bagpuss x

Absolutely. I certainly learnt a lot of repertoire on my way to G8 and carried on learning more as I went past it!

Is it not perfectly possible to pass a high grade, without ever having reached a distinction level at a lower one first? I think so...

I've always thought of distinction as carrying a something extra, maybe something that some candidates might never achieve even if sitting the exam two levels down, to do with stagecraft, presentation, and a meticulousness which is not necessarily everyone's forte. Sure, a good teacher might well get more candidates performing in that particular way, but it's not the only thing marking out a good teacher, or indeed a good candidate.....nor is it always the thing which will necessarily make such a good musician, either. I've seen some distinction level performances put out by what might politely be called little automatons - all very precise and neat and tidy, and just_not_there, somehow, not inspiring. Likewise I know musicians who have never done grades, because the format of music exams has not suited their style of learning and playing, and who are amazingly musical and alive and fun to hear despite never having put their performances through that particular hoop.

In terms though of ambitious parent seeking a particular path for a child - there are pros and cons to either approach, do the exam early and one learns from the processs, though the risk is a knock to confidence if it's too early: or do the exam late, and one gets the boost of a better result (unless of course one has set one's heart on a distinction which doesn't arise despite that), but at the risk of boredom. Ultimately it's one I think the candidate ought to have a say in, as long as it's an informed choice.

On answer to first part even being distinction standard won't gaurantee it on the day. Youngest got Merit for Grade 8 Recorder because the examiner wanted a wide dynamic range (he was a singer) and obviously didn't realise that recorders don't do dynamics to that extent. Now a different examiner..... the point is that on the day you never know how it will go. With AB she only played Treble so we waited and she took a different board only on Descant. The mark sheet of the first exam tells it's own story so I wouldn't hesitate to submit it for funding. There is so much water under the bridge now that it doesn't really matter.

My advice would be to wait and take the exam when the child was as well prepared or as comfortable as possible without delaying too long that they are bored.

I can tell you that Junior Conservatoire students are probably more likely to resit an exam to get a higher result than any other type of student. I don't think it would matter one way or the other and there is nothing ot say you have to tell them.




Very true! Daughter got Distinction for Grade 6 Flute, pass for Grade 7 (all candidates on special visit got passes) and Distinction at Grade 8.



This is what we've been assured is the case and many auditionees will be beyond Grade 8 it won't mean an automatic place either.




Looking back I certainly view things differently. I wouldn't rush Grade 8 if there was no need and you weren't in a competitive environment. Nor would I start working on exam pieces and we have encountered a similar mindset over audition pieces where keeping them too long could make them stale. What I would do explore as much repertoire as possible, perfecting resting and then working on again as technical skills develop.

Get a really good teacher whatever the cost and trust them particularly as auditions approach.

Now how do I stop my horror playing a piece for audition that's far too hard..........

Any typos are down to the awful high notes coming from a saxophone, waiting for neighbours to complain

Ooooo, please, is that fair? I don't read it in the OP's question - she said her CHILD wanted to go to music college. One of mine at that age announced she wanted to go to the Royal Ballet School; they get these ideas. All a parent wants to do - given it's not an idea that's completely unrealistic - is make sure the door isn't locked before opens. (In a long and otherwise helpful post, maybe people will missed the above quote and I am doing a disservice by highlighting it... if so, sorry...)

Mine wanted to be a musician aged 10 and we've always kept that door open without any pressure for it to actually happen. She would have been completely free to change her mind at any point - even now. That's the reason why I joined this forum in the first place as I had no idea how to deal with that desire and I learnt what was needed for Conservatoire or Uni.

I do understand why people assume it's the parent but that doesn't make it always the case. I can remember lots of time in the past that threads were started by people not having the right qualifications to study music and expressing disappointment. I encouraged daughter to get the right qualifications, that I won't deny, but we had 8 years to do it in.

And I meant to say earlier but the phone went that (without turning this into a lovefest!) your post above (as is this) is thoughtful and honest, and the kind of reply that helps people like FullOfWind, a new forumite starting on the journey. .

Questions on the forum usually encompass more than simply the one contained within an OP, as threads evolve, surely? If the OP is not ambitiously minded, there are certainly parents posting on here who are, and my reply was a general comment, intended to allow for the pro-elitist amongst them too.

Youngest son took Gd 7 flute and Gd 7 violin when he was 12 and (I think) got high merits for both, he's now 14. There is no way on earth he is taking Gd 8 on either for at least 3 years! What's the point? He can play beautiful music for all that time and grow up enough to want to be able to play all his scales well, learn loads of interesting things about context and composition that make his beautiful pieces 'work' and generally have a happy musical time!
If he wants a musical career then he can do that whenever he takes Gd 8, at the moment he does not. If he changes his mind then all the things he has learned during this non-exam time are of enormous value.

I suppose one could argue, that if you don't see the point in him sitting grade 8 then what was the point in him sitting grade 7? Did you realise by grade 7 that exams were a waste of time?

Where has anyone said they're a waste of time?

As a musician and teacher yourself you will have more understanding of how these things work. Those of us who are not need to be guided by teachers and the guidance we get will be very different.

In an ideal world getting to be one exam away from where you needed to be, at 12, if you wanted a musical career is very impressive. You have done exactly what I did, you have looked at his best options and guided him along the way. You've kept the door open in case your son changes his mind.

I don't blame you waiting until he matures to take grade 8 and having all that time for musical development is wonderful. I guess you also have piano in the mx which is often the bit people play catch up on. It's about the only thing I've ever had to nag daughter over

We did this before. For some the exam is a goal to aim for. Some children actually do like taking the exams Some children only do the higher grades eg. 6, 7 and 8. In particular if they are multi instrumentalist. They dont want to waste time (and money) taking three or four of the earlier grades.

My youngest did Grade 1, and 2 Descant recorder, Grade 1 to 4 Piano, Grade 1, 3 and 5 Violin plus Grade 6,7 and 8 Viola. Grade 6, 7 and 8 Alto Sax. The distinctions were in the latter two instruments.

It's all very well saying that a grade 8 distinction it doesn't matter, but doesn't that depend on what you want to do with your music? If you want to be in the NCO, NYO, selected summer music courses, other orchestras, JDs? (perhaps, I don't know much about those), then it can be very useful! - for the NYO application they ask for a copy of your exam mark sheet. If you are more interested in using grades as something to work for and as a record of your personal achievement, then I agree, distinction chasing doesn't matter.

Only once has my daughter got funding/a place without having been required to present a G8 distinction mark sheet. The one occasion was at an audition for an American Scholarship and I did send in the G8 mark sheet anyway with full a Music CV. The panell actually had the copy in front of them during her audition and one remarked to her,... "this would help weed out the time-wasters, shame we dont have this in the States".

Has this changed? Last year they were asking for a copy of the grade 8 certificate (rather than mark sheet, I think) OR a letter from teacher confirming the auditionee was grade 8 distinction standard (which is what we provided). My impression is that these orchestras usually make a big point of saying that you don't actually have to have taken any exams.

It's nice not to have to put the teacher to trouble though, and to feel you really can prove the point independently of those who might be prejudiced!

P.S. I don't suppose lack of the grade 8 certificate, by itself, explains why she didn't get in!

Yes this year they are asking for an upload of the mark sheet - still a letter from the teacher will suffice also, so that's not changed..

The whole process is quite different this year Halka.

I would have been very much in the camp that grade 8 has to be Distinction before Grade 8. Looking back I think it's less important and I'm probaly more convinced that one Distinction will not be absolutly equal to another. I don't just mean in the marking but for all sorts of factors.

I have never thought that it does not matter. I think it is a shame that it does matter, and that the exam boards have developed a system of three levels of pass in the Grade exams.

If there was only pass or fail, what do you think should be the pass mark? What about other exams with a range of pass grades - GCSEs, A levels, degrees?

Oh that's so frustrating! One of my pupils is going for it this year, and got 134 for grade 8 last year. Ok it's a decent mark but about 5-10 marks below what he deserved, not only that but many of the comments are both rude and untrue, a shockingly scathing report for a grade 8 distinction. I didn't complain formally because I didn't really think I had much of a case complaining about a pupil not getting as high a distinction as I wanted. However so many other teachers did complain about him that that session that I heard from the steward that there was an inquest and it looked like he might lose his job, so that reassured me that I was right in my view of the result. Still we had just happily moved on, celebrating that he got his grade 8 distinction and that nobody was likely to read this insulting report. Hopefully it won't influence their view too much and as soon as they hear him play they will revise their opinion!

Oh that sounds really unpleasant! Especially if you have to use the comment sheet and therein lies the rude remarks. I can understand the request for the mark sheet as it gives the detailed information that the certificate just doesnt. But if the remarks are unkind at that level, i personally feel thats just mean. Why would any examiner want to record such negative comments

That is very unfair, and perhaps you should write a covering letter for your pupil. I think it is awful that an examiner would write negative comments like that for a distinction.

Well he really is an exceptional pupil - already principal flute with his county orchestra by the age of 14 and always gets amazing feedback in competitions which made the report all the more shocking, and as I accompanied his exam I know he played his best. I hope NYO ask for a teacher reference, I will just write a really good one to balance it out, and might possibly refer to the comments on the mark form not reflecting his standard. As I said once they hear him they should realise!

If it were pass/fail there'd be no need for a mark.

You would receive a written report on the performance, which would show you where you needed to improve, and a PASS or FAIL categorization for each component of the exam. You would also be required to pass all components to get an overall pass (as is now the case with the Diploma exams, but not in the Grade exams, where well played pieces can compensate for inferior oral skills and dodgy scales (or vice versa).

I have no opinion on other kinds of exam as I do not teach GCSE/A-level/degree subjects, and I am unlikely ever to take such exams again myself.

*is heartily glad you don't have to pass all components of graded exams, and thinks it's probably better than this is so*

....largely because this is a restrictive way of assessing musical ability. There are many more hoops one could add to the basic mix in order fully to assess musicianship, which would be just as valid as the ones the various boards choose to give candidates to jump through - if you were to add them in as mandatory, and demand passes for each, you'd soon see a dropping off in pass rate, for the simple reason that we all have different strengths and weaknesses. Question is how we get round these, and I think the word "round" is significant here: heads down and through isn't always the best way to a given goal.

I can't see what the objection is to pass/merit/distinction - I have far more issues with the somewhat daft idea that only one of the three is worth having.

It would be better to make the exams more specific. So a performance exam would be just that and aural tests would be quite separate (and a great deal less trivial). Incidentally the aural tests don't even test the aural skills that are of most use to a pianist like, for example, hearing the balance of tones in a chord or slight differences in dynamics, or the difference between a clean legato and a smudged one.


I completely agree, and I don't think the aural tests have any place in a test of competence in performing on an instrument. All that should matter is how well you play, irrespective of the skill set you used to achieve your level of performance. Probably sight-reading and performance should be separated too. You can be a brilliant performer, yet be quite a slow sight reader. Some of the best pianists cannot even read music. (Errol Garner, Art Tatum and George Shearing, were all magnificent pianists, yet Garner never learned to read music and Tatum and Shearing were both blind!!)


We just continue to teach both specific instrumental skills AND all round musicianship to the best of our ability, use the flawed system of Grade exams as we think appropriate, and keep telling parents and teachers of other subjects the limitations of what the exams assess and how they assess it. And continue to rail against the misuse of the system by college admissions departments and others.


But I think they are two sides of the same issue. If we did not have pass/merit/distinction then we would not have the present situation where the superb achievement of passing Grade 8 is looked down on by many who think that only a Distinction is worth having (and do not understand that passing grade 8 piano is a far more difficult achievement than, for example, getting an A grade in an A level).

Look though at what is happening to all the universities trying to select their students at the moment: the political correctness of not letting kids feel bad about any given level of achievement has led to the system ironing out much of the sense of graded levels in exams - so many are getting top grades now, that working out who is actually suited to a course has become more difficult. The same would happen if there were simply a single hurdle of pass/fail at each exam level - and you'd have establishments trying to work out who actually was the scraped fail and who the comfortable one. Okay, so the way that the exams are set up now don't necessarily tell them all they need to know: I for one think that auditioning would have to be a part of selection of career musicians too, not simply a mark sheet from a music exam.

Having said that - I know fine well that had the university I eventually went to actually interviewed me as a raw eighteen year old, they'd have turned me down, as did the one which did interview me. And, had my university turned me down, then they'd also have lost someone who was actually pretty capable, and makes a competent and compassionate doctor, so no system of selection, in whatever career is perfect.

I'm taking about the minimum score required to get a pass. Would you still use 100/150?





So having said you should have to get a pass in each section, you would actually only have one section, performing?

I think this is making everyone the same and there is enough of that around already. People who are genuinely good should be identified as such what does it matter if some people get higher marks than others. Distinction is something to aim for even if it's not always achieved.