I took on an adult learner back in January who is brand new to music. She started off having weekly lessons for half hour which were going well for the first four or five weeks. She then asked if she could have fortnightly lessons due to having small children and working leaving little time for her to practice. She found this arrangement easier, though still wasn't giving much time to piano in between the two weeks.

We had a lesson last night and she was really struggling. She hadn't touched the piano since last lesson, hadn't done the theory exercises set and admitted that she'd started a computer course that was taking up even more of her time. I asked her if piano was the right thing for her at the moment and she fled the room in tears!

When she came back, she said she was finding it harder than expected, and didn't realise that one had to move their hands on the keyboard. We're only on book two of the John Thompson course (books that she'd bought for her son who gave up lessons (with another teacher) after three weeks apparently).

This morning she sent a text asking if she could move to monthly lessons in the hope she will have more time to practice. My knee jerk reaction was to say no as instead of not practising for a fortnight it will now be a month. Maybe I should give her a chance for a month or two though? I've accommodated her changes before, and if I agree to this one, it will definitely be the last chance.

What would others do? Give her a chance or say that it might be best to finish lessons altogether?

Thanks.

Sounds like there is quite a lot going on here. There is sadly a fairly high drop out rate among adult learners who have either underestimated the work, effort and concentration that goes into learning an instrument or overestimated the time they will be able to commit to it - or, as in this case probably, both. In my experience the first signs are often reducing the frequency of lessons. Given the tears it could also be there are other issues affecting her well being. I think your professional advice should be No, you are not going to find more time just by spacing out lessons, you will only lose any sense of continuity between them. Weekly is best- pedagogically, not just for the convenience of you as the teacher! - but fortnightly may just work.

If you do both decide to carry on, you could try to get her improvising and playing by ear so she can in that way experience the freedom and expression that comes from using all the piano - as long as you are happy to teach these skills of course. But many people do not realise until they try for themselves that the casual-seeming ease and grace with which proficient pianists play, comes only through discipline and graft. Their reaction can then be (a) in that case I will work harder because I can see where it is leading or (b) actually I don't want that effortless grace if I have to work for it! Try to ascertain which of these reactions is your student's.

Good luck and bon courage

What a shame
I had an adult pupil last year who was a young teacher, she was a specialist in a few different subjects and was committed to other after school activities. She had recently got married and not long after she started lessons, she fell pregnant. She was so keen to play and had such a positive attitude, but in reality she just couldn't fit practice time into her already hectic life.
She went from weekly lessons, to fortnightly, then to monthly with me, but it didn't work, I went along with it as I really believed she wanted to achieve something. Eventually she came to realise herself that it was harder than she first thought, and she knew she couldn't give it the atention it needed.
She still texts me sometimes, and still says she'll do it one day, but right now the time isn't right!
I think your pupil will reach a decision in her own time, but it's whether you are happy to allow her that time.

Good luck!

The scenario she presents as an adult learner is very common, as I'm sure you're aware. My feeling is that first and foremost, the lessons should be fun and the emphasis should be on enjoying music. If I can achieve that, even if there's little or no work outside lessons, then to a certain extent, I've won half the battle and I'm reasonably satisfied. I tend to find that this runs in a cycle: the more they enjoy the lessons, the more they're likely to practise, the more they'll get out of lessons etc...but...it does take a long time to establish this and it can't be 'forced' on an adult, perhaps in the same way it can on a child.

I would be happy with lessons every other week, but I wouldn't accept it going down to monthly unless I knew there would be serious practice taking place between lessons.

Have you explored other books? I don't know the John Thompson course, but certainly my experience of the Hal Leonard is very positive. The fact that learners are playing tunes (either solo, with the CD or with the teacher) from day one brings a lovely smile to their face. It introduces concepts slowly and steadily with plenty of practice which is important for adults. The fact that they can listen to and play with the CD at home is a real bonus and it makes practice a much more positive affair.

How much work have you done on establishing what we mean by practice, how to do it, how long to spend on it etc.? I'm sure she could find time if she wanted to - even if you started on just 10 minutes a week. Maybe run through a 'dummy' practice session in the lesson? Part of the key with adults is to establish what sort of time they have available and only set things which can easily be achieved in that amount of time.

[quote name='Hils' date='Jun 1 2012, 09:44 AM' post='1151434']
[quote name='primrose.piano' post='1151428' date='Jun 1 2012, 09:10 AM']
There is sadly a fairly high drop out rate among adult learners who have either underestimated the work, effort and concentration that goes into learning an instrument or overestimated the time they will be able to commit to it - or, as in this case probably, both. In my experience the first signs are often reducing the frequency of lessons.
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I have experienced this with adult singers. I am often asked to do one off performance coaching for auditions etc, which can be ok, but other times I can see that what they are trying to achieve is not going to happen in one or two lessons. Then they disappear and come back next time they have an audition, and expect me to fix everything in an hour. I have recently had a new-ish student drop down to fortnightly lessons, and reading all of this, I now think that it could be because she feels she is not progressing fast enough. I thought it was just a singing issue - after all everyone can sing, can't they? It's only learning an instrument that takes years??? (And practice...)

Regarding the practice thing, if I turn up to my guitar lesson having not done much practice because it's been a hectic week, my teacher just smiles and says "Let's do an hour of practice now..."

I only have one adult pupil at the moment and she comes for a lesson every other week for 45 mins. Having read what others have said about adult learners, I realise how lucky I am, as she puts in lots of practice and is very keen. She's reached Grade 5 theory level in a couple of years, too. However, she's a young, single lady and has time for practising.
With regard to your lady, I don't think that lessons once a month are a good idea. Could you explain to her that even if she hasn't got time for much practising, she can learn a great deal in her lessons?
I'd be quite worried about her tears. Above all, we want our pupils to enjoy making music. Do you feel you can talk to her about the way she's feeling?
I used to teach an older lady who was so nervous (literally shaking every week) that she stopped coming for lessons, even though I constantly tried to reassure her. I'm a very patient teacher and really wanted her to conquer her nervousness, but nothing seemed to work.

The majority of my students are adults, so maybe a few thoughts:

In my experience, monthly is too little for someone wanting to learn an instrument from scratch. I can understand the notion of the student though, thinking they will have more time to practise if the intervals between lessons are longer, and the frustration of coming to lessons un(der)prepared. It's a fallacy to think though that stretching it out even further will make it better.

I tell adult beginners that it is usually not a good idea to attend less than fortnightly. I only make exceptions for singers who are already experienced and advanced enough - they can attend whenever they like, just to prepare for auditions etc. I also make exceptions for contemporary singers whose instruments are generally healthy, and who just want to work on specific performance issues etc: You don't need to fix what ain't broken, and pop isn't classical (that's no judgment, it just requires a completely different skillset).

So, in short: Less than fortnightly only for advanced classical singers, (semi)pros, and contemporary singers with healthy basic technique, no vocal issues and good musicianship.

All others need to accept that you can't learn an instrument without basic commitment. If they are okay with making no progress and just value the lesson as an escape from their daily routine, it might still work. Most will get frustrated with that approach though, and stretching the intervals out even further is usually just the last step before they drop out. Some just have unrealistic expectations about how time-consuming it is to really learn an instrument, and once they realise, they stop.

I think you should have an honest chat with your student (who doesn't sound like someone who falls into the "just attend for relaxation and fun, and don't care about progress"-camp, given the tears). Explain to her, very diplomatically, that stretching out the intervals even further won't solve the underlying problem. It is really up to her to judge whether she might be able to put in more practice, or whether it's just not for her at the moment.

Don't feel bad for being honest, it's not as if you are sacking her: She is a responsible adult who should hopefully understand, and sometimes, we just have to say it as it is and treat adults as adults.

Does she have unrealistic ideas of how much practice she 'should' be doing?
If you've not already done so you could try pointing out that even 10 minutes on five days a week can be productive if she practises with small targets in mind.

Sorry I did not want to tar all adult learnesr with the same brush!..I have some brilliant, hard working adult students who are a total delight to teach every week. But I have had several start (and unfortunately finish) in ways similar to those in the scenario the OP describes. One thing I would add is that both parties will feel better if the arrangements are arrived at in a conversation that is open and honest. One local lady drifted away, gradually reducing frequency of lessons, concelling a couple at the last moment and then finally just stopped calling. It's awkward and leaves both sides with a slightly unhappy feeling I think.

An adult learner rather than a teacher's perspective - as others have said I think you probably need to clarify what you mean by practice and the fact that 10 minutes a day would be ample for the moment. Where is her piano? My piano is in the room next to the kitchen so I often play while I'm waiting for water to boil for example. My daughter's practice is a bit more structured now, but for a long time she just used to play something every time she walked past the piano, so not a lot in one go but making around 20 to 30 minutes a day if put "end to end".

I quoted the bit above because it might also be worth clarifying your own expectations to her - although she is an adult, she no doubt has memories of what happened at school when she (or other pupils) turned up not having done their homework. I am often surprised (alarmed) by the way I sometimes seem to regress to being about 12 again in my lessons - a sort of pavlovian response to things if you like. I do practise regularly but one week my teacher had given me a piece that I felt I had got nowhere with since the previous week and I was very reluctant to play it to him - he sensed my reluctance and asked what the problem was and when I said I couldn't play it very well he burst out laughing and then asked if I really thought he was expecting me to come back and play it perfectly after just one week

I think a beginner with a weekly lesson with no practise in between can make more progress than someone with less frequent lessons. After all, at least there's 30 minutes a week of playing time!

I did a couple of years teaching quite a number of adult beginners classical guitar. I found alot of them liked the idea of being able to play, but just didnt' practice in between lessons enough to progress, so they were in effect paying me to listen to them practice. For most of them, they were happy with this, becuase it was what they wanted from me: guided practice. If they didnt' come to a weekly lesson they might not have picked up their instrument at all. There's the same thing going on in my samba band, it's "what they do on a wednesday evening". They don't get better because they only do it once a week, but really enjoy what little they do do amd have a good time doing it.
Pupil tinkerers like that are boring and frustrating to teach, but if they are willing to pay, enjoy their lesson time, and a teacher is willing to give them their support and encouragement, then why not?
OP's dilemma reminds me of in my work as a practice nurse, I support patients in their efforts to lose weight. Usually I suggest to these patients they see me weekly for support. The ones who say they want to leave it to fortnightly or monthly are invariably the ones who know deep down they are not going to make any changes immediately, but have convinced themselves that somehow next week/month they will do better. They are usually the ones that dont' come back.
OP, if she's a busy working mum she may see her piano lessons as "me" time so just want to enjoy a bit of relaxed tinkering about in a ring fenced bit of time away from everything else. I wouldn't let her muck you about with irregular lessons though, your time is valuable.

I have an adult piano pupil who has been with me for about three years. In that time both of us have had two children so continuity of lessons has been a slight issue! She now comes for lessons once a fortnight and really values her lesson as her 'me time' even though she hasn't always managed to fit in a great deal of practice. She understands that at the moment, we will not really be progressing through the curriculum; rather we will focus on consolidating and broadening her musical understanding and skill.

But for a beginner pupil this would not work; I feel they need weekly lessons for a whole range of reasons, and lack of practice will soon take its toll.

However, I agree with other posters that perhaps you could agree to the monthly lessons (if it's not inconvenient) and let her come to the realisation herself that it's not working.

Personally, I love teaching adults: 82% of my pupils are adults. You do however need the patience of a saint! The thing is that adults have very different aims and goals, and they also have very different commitments and obligations 'outside'. It took me several years of teaching them before I finally accepted this!

For adults, learning an instrument is often a huge investment emotionally, and I think it's important to recognise that this is often as, if not more important than the music itself. Because I've seen this 'in action' so much over the past 11 years, I've grown far less concerned about the non-practisers. A lot of what they get from the lessons isn't 'visible'.

Let me make this very clear that this isn't a criticism of anyone who's posted here, but I think, as teachers, we have to be very honest with ourselves about whether we have the necessary skills to work with adult learners. Not all teachers have this, in the same way I'm clear that I have little experience or expertise in teaching young children. When I started teaching, a lot of adult learners presented the familiar story of uninteresting lessons as a child. Sadly, I'm finding an increasing number who are coming from teachers now who simply aren't equipped to provide the sort of teaching which is required.

We also have to realistically accept that we will never win them all, whatever age they are. Making that decision is very hard for everyone involved.

I wouldn't have given her the theory stuff to do. It adds extra pressure and as an absolute beginner is it really helping her playing?

Giving her something she can succeed at - simple tunes, with repeated structure, that she can sing along to - might help.

It does sound like an exit strategy of someone who has over committed themselves, but doesn't like to ask to leave. If you mainly aim for improvement on the instrument, I'd say "No, but please feel free to get back in touch when life gets easier." If you are happy to involve the student in music making somehow, involving no preparation on their part (easy duets/ CD listening and music history/ bit of theory in lessons/ guided composition in lessons, (and let's be honest a bit of social chat with adults) etc.) on what may become a very ad hoc basis, then it could work. I had a student in a similar position once, and took the broad approach. It worked for a while but involved alot of lesson prep, energy and ideas on my part, as I was providing all the drive, and ultimately she gave up anyway. But every student is different and has different needs so it may be worth a try - good luck!

Yes, but if they're only coming once a month a lot of the regular payment won't be visible either!

I agree that it takes different skills to teach adults,
and 1. I don't scare them with theory until about the tenth lesson,
and 2. I wouldn't necessarily use the John Thompson books just because her son didn't need them anymore (although I have used books 1 and 2 with adults, in conjunction with other material)

BUT if she's not touching the piano from one lesson to the next you have to wonder where her priorities lie; fourteen days and she didn't have a spare ten minutes? THe longer she has between lessons, the less inclined she'll be to try.

True, but this is another place where I've had to adapt my approach. Not all adults are able, for many reasons, to commit to regular lessons. If I insisted that everyone had to come every week, I'd lose a lot of pupils and a lot of goodwill which helps nobody.

Thanks for all your responses. In regards to a few points raised:

The piano is in a room that the lady referred to as the 'hobby room'. There's a large dining table covered in sewing material, the computer and the piano. This is a separate room from the main lounge/TV room so there are no distractions. An ideal room for playing and practising I would say...

When I first went to her, I was loaded with alternative tutorial books for her to have a look through, including books for adult learners. She asked to use the JT books to save paying out on anything else as she hadn't long bought them for her son. I've also taken in some very simple duets for us to play together. She got very flustered and asked not to do any more.

The theory work was some worksheets that I had printed out for her to help with naming notes. They are very simple worksheets using letter names of notes to answer clues to a crossword etc. She asked for something like this especially for the bass notes to help with recognition. The fact that she asked for them made it doubly frustrating that she hadn't completed them. I also left her a set of flash cards to go through to help name notes and to find them on the piano. I wouldn't touch more formal theory so early in lessons.

In the very first lesson, I explained that ten minutes practice at least five times a week is all that's required at this stage. She managed this at first, but as time has gone on, the practice time has virtually disappeared.

As an aside, the lady was referred to me by friends of hers who's children I have been teaching for a couple of years. Originally I was going to teach mother and daughter. The daughter decided she didn't want to learn before we'd even started. I was warned that they have no staying power, tending to start things and then lose interest very quickly. Maybe this is what's happening now?

I'll go to her next booked lesson after the half term holiday, and have a friendly chat about how we can proceed in a way that's beneficial to both of us.

I wouldn't necessarily push fluent note reading as such with an adult.
I may start with an overview of how note on the staves 'work'. As long as they understand and have the tools to find the starting note many quickly manage to read effectively by interval once they've cracked the code.
It depends on their wants and needs.

It might be useful to discuss strategies for making those 5-10 minute practice sessions into a habit.
Sometimes suggesting that other family members respect this time helps. Another one is that few minutes while something is cooking. Maybe not actually using the word practice at all but calling it 10 minutes playing? Having small targets (play bars 1 and 2 three times right in a row) which can be expanded if quickly reached rather than thinking about a time limit. All these have worked for me in different situations.

Primrose, it sounds as if you have gone to alot of trouble to help her. People don't always know what they want, which leaves us completely helpless! I'd definitely suggest a break (then she doesn't have to ask to leave) and you can fill the slot with someone keen. Good luck!

I don't think monthly lessons would make any difference to this student. She'll probably only do the same or less practice as she does now! If she can't manage regular practice, she isn't going to make any progress no matter how often she has lessons. If this were my student, I'd say I didn't do monthly lessons, especially for beginners and suggest she finds another teacher. What does she think she'll learn in 12 lessons a year?

The problem with monthly is that it leaves too much time for forgetting to happen, and provides too little time for adequate support: adult learners usually do have very many commitments though, especially mums, and this means that weekly can seem daunting.

First thing which strikes me is that this mum probably has high expectations of herself (hence stress on attempt at duets), and needs reassurance on that, the second I suspect is that she'll be thinking that unless she does everything she's got on her list she's not doing a reasonable job of preparation for then next lesson, and therefore is asking for longer time so as not to "fall short". I'd be pointing out that ten minutes a day five days a week is something to try for, but not to regard it as a minimum, and in the early days sometimes the best way to get into a habit of doing this is to have more frequent lessons. I happen to know from personal experience that even playing at a fairly high level for very short bursts can bring benefits and improvements. Giving a big list of homework can be counterproductive in this - she'll feel overwhelmed. Keeping theory to a minimum would also be my advice - and sometimes it's better to tailor materials to what she actually needs to learn - my beef with much theory material is that it doesn't reflect what a music student is needing to learn for their playing. Thus, flash cards seem a good idea, worksheets less so, and if you are able to put together some simple exercises on manuscript to enhance bass clef reading, so much the better. (starting with a simple and short section of scale, then the thirds, for instance). I really do think though that to keep any sort of momentum, fortnightly is likely to be needed, and finding out where her anxieties lie and alleviating them if possible, would be useful.

Rather than formal duets, one way round would be when learning hands separately, offer on the second playing to fit round the bass or the treble for her?

This is something I do regularly to help out Son No.2 with piano practice, and it works well. It might also help (as I think others have said) to be very clear that you don't (and she oughtn't to) have any expectation that she will be zooming along in terms of progress. Piano is not an easy instrument! But if she sticks at it and does try to do small amounts of practice regularly, she will make progress, and she will get to a level where she can play pieces which are more rewarding than the average "beginner" stuff.

Like others, I wouldn't recommend monthly lessons. As an adult learner, I have fortnightly lessons (on each instrument), and from my perspective it's about right: weekly lessons don't give enough of an interval for me to feel that I have made any progress, but monthly lessons would be much too long: I would get stale and/or stuck on problems where I really needed outside input, long before my next lesson was due.

I completely agree with one of my forespeakers who said, that once a week a lesson is at least once a week practice time.

I do have a student, although a little one, who urgently wants to learn the flute. However, I don't know exactly what is going on in her life but she won't do more than every fortnight. She even practices. Obvioulsy even a lot. But she is such a slow learner that when I come to her, she isn't much farther then the lesson I had left a fortnight ago. So I have to start exactly with what we did in the last lesson and it comes more to practice with her something specific rather than learning something anew. Progress is extremely slow!

What I did find out, however, was that my expectations and hers vary significantly. I wanted her to be able to do things while she was perfectly content with what she did. So, as a teacher, one thing I really had to learn myself was, to respond to the expectations of my student rather than my own.

If she is adult and if she wants to learn the backing off to once a month might be just a result of misunderstood expectations. In this case I would rather decide to get her to do once a week again, to heighten the frequency of "practice time", and see it as such as well. Pick something which really will improve her skills when doing it a lesson under supervision, and than do just that. You might even have to start your next lesson working on that again before you can do another topic. But you might be surprised that it is very likely that she will see the lesson more and more as "me" time than before and is less likely to give up. Luckily, in my case, I had a couple of months of frustration before I finally found out what my student wanted. But now, I have the feeling that both of us are quite happy with the achievements within lesson time.

What you have to take into account is that not everyone wants to make a profession out of it. And not everyone needs music like the air one breathes (the way I feel). For some, it is just what they do, like reading a book or playing a boardgame with a friend. They might even get there where you are. But instead of 10 years, it might take them 30, which for them doen't matter. And when it matters, they will put in the time needed to get there faster.

One more thought: have you explored, in a lesson, the best approaches to practice, the ones which will work for her? Sometimes being able to demonstrate the effectiveness of a structured approach is another boost to both confidence and motivation - it's hard to keep going if repetition and re-repetition isn't achieving any advances, and it's also not the best use of time. Frustrated with my inability to get double tonguing working on recorders, I asked my teacher and he worked through the intial stages of practice with me as part of a lesson - the way he did it wasn't what I'd been trying out, and his way was much much better (of course!). He knows more strategies for learning than I do, and just found the right one for me: everybody being different, it may be that this lady simply hasn't found the best for her yet. The advantage of having an adult pupil is that they're more likely to be able to understand this than a child will: the disadvantage only comes if they've lost a willingness to try things out.

The other thing my teacher did for me was always always to show confidence in my ability to learn: if I got stressed trying things out in lessons, he'd say, "you'll get this, it's okay, but I'm going to let you work on that at home" if the mistakes weren't the same all the time, and if they were, he'd very patiently go back to the drawing board and look for another approach.

Just a thought or two to add to those of others:

I have an adult pupil who comes usually weekly. She rarely practises, mainly because she is of rather a nervous disposition, shall we say. About a year ago, I suggested she might like to give up but have come to realise that it is the lesson she enjoys, socially as well as musically and I realise that, while I am not a social worker, perhaps what we do together is just as important to her as making great progress musically. She enjoys playing WITH me, but doesn't have the confidence to join any kind of group.

I think it was Seer Green who said something to the effect that it's important to understand what adults want out of their lessons. I suspect I'm not the only teacher who a pupil like this! Obviously, if I didn't have the space to teach her (she comes early morning) it might be different, but I have no doubt that she values her lessons.

Well, I went to this lady this afternoon, and she was a different person! She had practised well since I last saw her, is motivated and is keen to carry on with lessons! She's still saying she only wants half hour a month but she may review things again later.

She's even asked about grade one, but I think I've convinced her to hold out on that for a while yet.

Thanks for your thoughts and ideas everyone.