Can some clever recorder / flute / clarinet / oboe person help me please?

My youngest daughter plays the sopranino recorder, which has the same fingering as the treble (both in F?).

The descant and tenor recorders also share the same fingering (I think).

But do some recorders have the same fingering as the flute? Or clarinet? Or oboe? Or are they all different?

My little girl wants to play the clarinet, but she's too small (only 8, and a small 8 at that). Someone told me today that it was a bad idea to let her play recorder as the fingering was different to other wind instruments and it would confuse her in the future.

It certainly confused me ~ and now I'm worried about it.

Good recorder players generally get to know both types of fingering - C-in-the-middle and C-top-and-bottom

As a gross simplification, the lower register of the clarinet has C in the middle and the upper register feels more like the descant/tenor recorder. Unlike most other woodwind, the clarinet overblows at the twelfth rather than the octave. But of course there are also more holes, more levers, more mechanism.

My husband switched from descant recorder to clarinet at the age of 11 and didn't find it difficult at all. I think you'll find a lot of woodwind players start on the recorder. Whoever told you it was a bad idea wasn't right, IMO: if it was about the position of C, it's not terribly confusing, and indeed if she only played "C-in-the-middle" recorders it would be right. If it's about the extra machinery involved, don't think confusing, think progressing.

She'll get some woodwindy skills from the recorder, and yes, she'd need to adapt them to another instrument, but in general that's not that difficult to do, and no, it'll not cause her any confusion: if anything, learning recorder first, then switching at some point to a clarinet, is going to be easier than it is to cope with than it is to adapt to an F recorder having started on a C one. The clarinet will feel different, it has keys, a thumb rest and an embouchure is needed, all things which help to underline that one is learning a different instrument. Certainly I had no difficulty switching from school recorders to the oboe, and then from the oboe back to recorders - and curiously enough, learning F recorder, which did take me some time, improved my tone on the oboe too...

I started playing the recorder when I was in year 3 or 4, I can't quite remember, but when I was 8 I really wanted to start the flute. I started lessons when I was 9, I found the fingering for a beginner flautist is very similar, (it is different higher up the instrument) I can't remember the exact differences. Since then I have moved on to oboe, and the flute and oboe are similar too, so I don't suppose that either of these will be too difficult to learn.

Despite this, I have never understood clarinet fingering but my twin sister who plays clarinet and sax can pick up the flute very easily, but I think the sax fingering is similar to that of the flute.

Even where there are fingering similarities it's better to think of each instrument separately because of the differences. Thinking of them as different instruments may sound more complicated where there are similarities but I think it can get pretty complicated trying to remember where the differences are if you are trying to make comparisons.

I'd agree with sbhoa - they are all different instruments with their own idiosyncrasies. But, the C recorders (descant and tenor) generally share the same fingering to the clarinets second register and the F recorders (sopranino and treble) share similar fingerings to the first register. One big fingering difference is that you take your fingers off in order (apart from Bb/F#) on the clarinet whereas on the recorder there are more notes that don't do that.

The main difference with the clarinet is the fact that it goes up a 12th rather than the octave like the recorder, I has keys and holes that need to be covered in a more 'secure' way and that the clarinet uses reeds.

If your daughter is small there is the option of starting on an Eb or C clarinet which some teachers will do, but many will tell you to wait a few years.

Lots of good stuff here already : I'll only add that a grounding in recorders of all types did me no harm at all, and I'm now a first study clarinettist

Thank you for all your replies - much appreciated, and they have put my mind at rest. I think I was worried that I was encouraging her to do something which may cause her difficulties later on. For some reason her little recorder has just hit the spot for her and she really enjoys it.

My daughter started clarinet aged 7. She looked very funny and sweet with what looked like an enormous instrument in the hands of a tiny little girl. Like most kids she'd done a bit of recorder playing prior to this. She started in a group lesson as part of a beginner wind band group. She has not had any problems at all, and is now aged 13 about to do her grade 5.
Good luck to your daughter!

Do remember that recorder is a respectable instrument in it's own right and not just a stepping stone to a 'real' instrument.

She could start playing on an Eb or Lyons C clarinet- I have very young pupils playing these.....I've had recorder players too take up the clarinet.... I don't think they've ever particularly had a problem......

One thing I would suggest, if she keeps playing the recorder and then starts the clarinet, is that you don't play the clarinet music on the recorder and you don't play the recorder music on the clarinet. They'll sound different (clarinet is a Bb instrument) and the fingerings get confusing as some are the same and some are different but 'nearly the same' (and if she's like me, she might go on auto-pilot and play the 'wrong' fingerings).
I have two separate piles of music and I play the recorder one day and clarinet the next (I'm only a beginner recorder player so I'm in the opposite position to your daughter but I've found this to be easier - I can't play one and then the other straight after).

I haven't really explained that very well, have I?

Doubling is a skill in its self but I don't think that there would be to much of a problem playing recorder music on the clarinet. The biggest difference, as you say, would be the semitone down in pitch.

I have to say when I play C recorders I think of the saxophone, it I find F recorders have their own category....

I was also thinking about finger memory (muscle memory?).
I have a tendancy to kind of drift off so my fingers play for themselves (obviously not a problem if you pay attention I suppose!).
To me it's kind of like changing car - for some people (my OH) it takes minutes, for other people (me) it takes quite a while to get used to the new one.

Hi Bella drum, I'm Bill, I specialize in Medieval, Renaissance, and Baroque woodwinds, and I have some great news for you and your daughter.

First let me say picking a Recorder as a first was a GREAT idea, in fact, you've no idea how great it is, but I'm going to tell you.

The Recorder (Recordarium: Latin, to remember), was the Big Renaissance woodwind instrument. Before it, all woodwind instruments were NINERS! They lacked the over-blow octave and could only play 9 or 10 notes. The Recorder had a full 2+ octaves and gave the performer greater musical expression. Henry VIII owned 76 Recorders at the time of his death.

Best of all, every recorder used the same fingering, so rather than learn a new fingering system to play the other instruments (F or C), you only needed to transpose the music into your fingering.

The Recorder is a transition woodwind, it links the past (the Niners), and the modern woodwind families and so, is the basic fingering for almost every modern woodwind there is today.

If you compare the fingering for the Recorder with any other instrument, like the clarinet, concert flute, sax, oboe, bassoon etc., you'll note the first octave of that woodwind has the same fingering (or nearly so), as the Recorder does. The differences will be in the upper octave and on the sharps and flats, and valve useage. This means that it will be rather easy to transition to the modern instruments when your daughter is ready. This is true of the Bb Clarinet, which is actually a C Clarinet that uses the Gemshorn's left hand pinky fingering to get the Bb below middle C. That valve is only used to go down to that note, just like the Gemshorn.

There are three instruments that used the Recorders exact fingering, and good news for you, the Renaissance Clarinet (the Chalumeaux),is one of them. The other is the Glastonbury Pipe, and the Keklhorn, which you'll notice has the same fingering holes as the recorder as well. These are both capped, double-reed instruments.

The Kelhorn is a real interesting BASS instrument. It is small compared to other bass instruments. They actually play the octave below their names. The Soprano a Tenor, the Alto is a Bass, the Tenor is a Great Bass, the Bass is a Contra Bass, and the Great Bass is a Sub-Contra Bass, two octaves below middle C. At the Susato.com web site they show you a cut open kelhorn so you can see the long twisty air channel that allows the fingering holes to be so close together and the instrument to be so short and yet play the lower registers. Added bonus, it has the same fingering as the Recorder, including the double holes on fingers 6 and 7!

Since your daughter can play the Recorder here's some old instruments that use the same or very similar fingering:

Cornamuse, Crumhorn, Gemshorn, Kelhorn, Curtall (Renaisance Basssoone, also called a Declan. It only has three valves vs. the modern instruments 36. Two valves are only used to get the low notes), Baroque Bassoon, Baroque Oboe, Chalumeaux (Renaissance Clarinet), Loriman Pipe, Medieval Pipe, Glastonbury Pipe, Reichfief, Shawm, Bombard, and Mezmer.

Except for the Oboe and Curtall, these are all Niner instruments, as such they are much easier to learn how to play since you only need to learn the fingering for half as many notes.

If you go to "susao.com" you can find lots of period Niner music that still sounds wonderful for next to nothing.

If you'd like to pick up a Chalumeaux for your daughter, go to "lazarsearlymusic.com", they sell a handmade-to-order "C" instrument for $167, that's the best price on the web. You'll also find many of the other instruments I mention above at those two sites.

Other instruments can be found manufactured in Britain at "earlymusicshop.com" or in Spain at "renwks.com". These are more pricy, but you're stuck with them. Hunt around on the web for bargains, they are out there you can pick up a Bombard for only $49 in a couple places, and a trio of Mezmers for the same price.

One closing note, you really should take up the Soprano recorder and learn to play with your daughter. The 30 minutes you two spend playing and learning each day will be the most wonderful time you two spend together. Once you learn the notes, you can really start to sound good. You'll both be very proud. When she's bigger she can statrt on the Alto recorder. You might want to get an Alto with valves on the F anad G keys. Even I like it better than the open fingering. Likewise if you go for a Tenor, you'll be happier with extra comfort valves on the 3rd and 4th finger.

I strongly suggest you go to amazon.com and buy these two books: THE BEGINNERS METHOD FOR SOPRANO AND ALTO RECORDER, Books I, and II, by Sonya & Gerald Burakoff. From the very first page you and your daughter will be playing duets!!! It is a wonderful series. They are only $6.95, and $7.95 a real bargain. She can play the Alto (F) parts and you the Soprano © parts.
Best
Bill

Daughter plays recorders, which she started on,oboe ,flute, sax and more recently clarinet. She has always thought of them as seperate instruments and that has worked very well for her. Clarinet was the hardest one for her to get the fingerings but that was probably because she was experienced on all the others.




Recorder is a really good instrument and not as easy as many people think. The difficulty is finding specialist recorder teaching as there aren't as many around as for other instruments.

If you to my website you will find lots of it for absolutely nothing:

http://www.campin.me.uk/Music/Chalumeau.abc

It uses ABC notation, look at my homepage for hints if you don't know about that already.

There is also a lot for free at the German gemshorn association's site:

http://www.gemshornkreis.de/component/opti...cman/Itemid,33/

I think the best maker of chalumeaus at the moment is the German firm Tupian - they offer lots of options. I have a chalumeau made by SANS in Catalonia. It fingers a bit like a German-fingering recorder. It has no split holes, which means playing accidentals in tune is difficult.

Another "niner" instrument is the Italian ocarina (actually its range is an octave and a fourth). I have a page about that with links to a lot of resources:

http://www.campin.me.uk/Music/Ocarina/

I find the more different woodwinds I learn the easier they all get. The only family I haven't tried is the oboe and bassoon.

The recorder has recorder fingerings, flute has flute fingerings and so on. Its as black and white as that. There are similarities for the first 4 or 5 notes but not in proper playing.

Thank you Jack for the heads up on the Gemshorn site I downloaded mucho musica.

When I first started learning the flute (around 10-11) I had already been playing the descant and treble recorders for a few years (started descant at 6ish, albeit not very seriously). I used to switch the music around between all three quite freely, with no major issues.

When I upgraded my first flute however, I discovered that for years in some of those pieces I'd been slipping in "descant recorder-like" fingerings when playing them on the flute. My new instrument was not as tolerant as the older one for these unconvential and alternative fingerings, and the notes just would not sound!

This was the only time I ever had any issues. I imagine if your daughter can cope with understanding the difference between descant and treble, she won't have any issues learning a third set of fingerings for any other instrument she might care to take up.

Hi Misty,
I never actually learned the fingienrg for the F instruments, nor for the base line. I hate to admit it, but I'm a fearful cheat.

I transpose the F notes to C. And when I play base, I actually use white-out to take out the top A line on the bass staff, and draw in the E line below it!

I play oboe, bassoon, recorder and know the fingerings for flute and clarinet. The recorder fingering is different from those on the other woodwinds, because recorder is keyless while the others are keyed. But I think learning the recorder will be a good stepping stone for your daughter, should she play another woodwind later. Hope this helps!

Sincerely,
Wai Kit Leung

Ooh, I had to draw this out to work out what you're doing. So you're taking something written in a bass clef for a recorder whose lowest note is F, moving the lines one, and playing it as though it were treble clef using fingerings as though the instrument had lowest note C???

Honestly, have a go at learning the F fingerings! You won't regret it. It'll open up all that music written on treble clef for treble/alto recorder (which is probably the largest part of the recorder's repertoire). It's a few months' work (which can be done in secret!) for a lifetime's enjoyment. And it will save you on tippex/white stuff.

My duaghter often uses recorder fingerings as transposiiton cheats on sax when transposing Bb to Eb. You never know who you might impress by doing that It's well worth learning several sets of fingerings it's probably easier when you are younger.

I think I would tend to agree with both those comments.

Hi Misty,

Actually as base is concerned it is easier than you think. I draw in the C conversion notes in RED ink so that they stand out from the black F notes (I can do it really fast now, lots of practice ).

While I have a plastic base recorder (purchased as part of a set from Yamaha), I primarily play my great bass recorder (Moeck Flauto Rondo, got it used for $1500), when I'm down there. It can't get to CC below middle C, so I"m planning, eventually to purchase a used Paetzold Sub-Great Bass one day. THEN I can do a good Walking Bass line

The problem with learning the F fingering, is, I'm afraid it will confuse me, and since I can simplify things by converting F to C, I'll probably go the easy route.

Besides I want to learn Coronett next, augh!!! a D instrument. That's why I don't learn the bagpipes, and I'm Scottish!

Maybe I'll learn the 7 string Bass Viol da Gamba, or maybe the Tenor Rebec instead. I've been putting off leaning the strings to long. I've been watching some video lessons on YOUTUBE.COM, it seems simple enough and, I've noticed they have a lot of cheap Chines violins on Amazon. They sell a Violin for Dummies kit, sounds right for me Maybe?

Thanks for your comments Best, Happy Holidays.

"The problem with learning the F fingering, is, I'm afraid it will confuse me, and since I can simplify things by converting F to C, I'll probably go the easy route. "


BillM - I have to say I'm baffled as to how this time-consuming F-to-C conversion method of yours is easier, in the long run, than just learning F fingerings. Apart from anything else, it would mean that you could never play an F instrument when making music with others (and using someone else's music) unless the rest of the ensemble didn't mind waiting while you did the conversion (and the person whose music it was didn't mind you covering it in Tippex and various coloured inks!)

Allegra

What's more it's a darn sight easier than learning a different instrument.

Hi Allegra,

When I get together with friends to play I usually play my strong instrument. As you noted, it takes time for me to transpose, so I can't just play F instrument music, nor the base line. Usually the music we play we've pre-selected, so I've had time to add my little touches, so I'm ready when they are.

As to the time I spend transposing. It is like cleaning the pool for me, it is a kind of relaxing down time, I enjoy doing it. I also get to know the music well by doing it too. After all I don't just transpose F-C. I go though all my music and highlite Key changes and sharps, and flats, and any different fingering for the specific instrument I may be playing.

Since I have to look closley at the music and think it out, I think it actually gives me a familiarity with the notes other people lack until much later in playing the music.

I spend time with every piece before I even touch my instrument. Most players don't, I think that time benefits me as an instrumentalist. I'm not doing something by rote, I'm thinking it through.
Familiarity breeds contempt, but not with music.

Toodles
Merry Christmas everyone!

Wouldn't it just be easier to listen to it and get to know the music that way?

I'm stunned you haven't learnt the F fingerings as you seemed to suggest that it made you a better musician by learning other instruments, especially if they are already in the family of an instrument you play, in another thread...

And as other people have said, it really isn't that difficult and opens up the almost the whole of the Baroque recorder repertoire.

BillM, if you ever change your mind, can I recommend the Dolmetsch online method, with this link. With your background you don't need more than some exercises to introduce each F note in turn, which is what this method offers. It has versions for treble and for bass (I assume the only real difference is the clef). The exercises won't be musically challenging for someone with your previous knowledge.

Incidentally, if you don't want to get confused, you can try to think about F instruments as something quite different, or if you're like me, you can try to think of the scale as though it were in a different colour. I have in my head a dark navy-blue scale on my treble recorder, and a sort of orangy-tan-brown scale for descant/tenor. Both contain "C", but navy-blue C is half way up the octave and involves three fingers of left hand, while orangy-tan C happens at either end of the octave and is all-fingers-down or 1,3 on left... if that makes any sense??? Any trick you can come up with for separating the two and not getting confused is worth trying! We are all different...

As someone else pointed out, a side-effect of learning the new fingering is that when it's firm in your head, you have an instant method of transposition. In fact if you get happy reading bass clef, you will have another method (by reading treble clef as though it were bass; this is helpful because an awful lot of music is about a third too low for a treble recorder). I struggle with the latter, and it's perhaps too confusing to recommend, but it's a possibility for those whose heads work that way. It's also identical to being able to read a French violin clef.