Pupil arrived for her second lesson today, having already had two piano teachers before me (but that's another story). I had given her 3 pieces to practise from the brand new Piano Time 1 book I'd started her on last week.
I opened the book at the right page and was confronted with all 3 pieces marked with fingering and note names - and all IN PEN! She could see how shocked I was and I tried to calmly explain why she didn't need to write in any finger numbers or note names and that she should never use pen to write in her book. (To make it even worse, some of the markings were incorrect.) She told me that her previous teacher had told her to do this.
Why, why, why?? She even had one bar with just 3 repeated notes for the left hand little finger and she'd marked every one with a 5.
I'm the most patient of teachers, but this really got to me.

I feel your pain, Jenny!

Nowadays, I make a point of telling every new student that under no circumstances are they ever to write in note names or finger numbers. I can't understand why any teacher would take this approach - in no way does it actually simplify the learning of a piece, and it seems to be making a statement that the received system of notation is somehow woefully inadequate, in that it fails to communicate such basic things as pitch. Writing in finger numbers, I can understand, even if I don't approve, but writing in note names? That's just stupid.

I don't even let my pupils write in their theory books in pen!

Sometimes I wonder about other music 'teachers'. Speaking from experience, as a teacher of inherited pupils, not only do some teachers not help the child progress; they actually hinder.

Of course,you've only got the girl's word that the previous teacher told her to do that. But it seems to be an ingrained behaviour.

Totally share your frustration Jenny, but I cannot agree with moondad's statement above. Why on earth do you consider it 'stupid' to write these things in? Evidently, it's no good writing every single thing in and it's not the way to teach reading music, but surely, a note or fingering mark here or there is extremely useful. It takes a while to learn and recognise the note names; I would rather they wrote the odd one in so that at least momentum in the piece was maintained; that way, the more confident they get, albeit, to a certain extent subconciously, the brain begins to recognise the correlation between symbol, name and location (or fingering for non-piano instruments).

I use Piano Adventures with younger pupils and, quite rightly in my opinion, it reinforces these concepts in every piece; for example, first note is C with finger 1, so underneath it reads '1 on _' with a blank for the pupil to write in the letter name.

Or, have I totally misunderstood why you think this is 'stupid'?

I take the line - as with so many aspects of life in general! - that if you always do it, NOW you mustn't do it at all. If you never do it, NOW you can do it sometimes.

In other words, if you keep making one particular mistake and need a gentle reminder, not just a circle round a note (you'll just be extra careful to do what you were doing before! ) then a letter or a finger, or an interval will help. I've even been known to draw little diagrams consisting of circles one above the other to show whether your hand is finding black or white notes - but not as a method of reading in the first place.

This is a different scenario from what I'm talking about. What I refer to as 'stupid' is the practice of the teacher writing the note name and/or finger number under every single note in every single piece. It is alarming how often you see this in transfer students, and I stand by my assertion that it is a stupid thing to do.

Yes, well I'd agree with that wholeheartidly...I'm just not convinced that's how your post reads

At the piano time 1 level, we work through the piece in the lesson and once we have worked out what the notes are without recourse to finger numbers/written in names, I will write in a few numbers to iron out the odd corner. However, at this stage, pupils are not encouraged to write anything in their own books during the week. If a problem occurs we can sort it out next week.

But later on, by grade 3 or 4 then I say to them that they may write in a number if it helps them to remember which finger to use in a particular place, or if there's a tricky section. I always use pencil, and I expect them to use pencil, because we sometimes change our minds. Actually, even at this later stage, having waited for me to sort out fingers, they tend to wait til the next week. But that's another story, - they then need to be given a push to think for themselves.

Yeah, I can see how it could be taken like that - thanks for giving me the opportunity to clarify

I absolutely agree. I sometimes pencil in finger numbers for the occasional note where needed. I might even pencil in a note name if there's a change of position that's difficult to recognise until the pupil has become more familiar with the piece. But this was so extreme - I felt as though the brand new book had been spoiled. The girl must have been quite taken aback by my shocked reaction! I spoke to her grandparents when they collected her and I made it clear how much I disapproved. I told them that ideally we shouldn't need to have any markings other than the ones printed and that if we do put in a few, it must always be with a light pencil that can be erased later. Think they got the message okay!

I sympathise. I inherited a post-G5 pupe and in the first lesson with Ms Bag asked to hear something the pupe knew - maybe a G5 exam piece. Imagine my HORROR when EVERY SINGLE note had a big, fat letter name over the top. EVERY ONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I teased the pupe about being "naughty" for writing in all the letter names only to be met with the protest "it wasn't me, it was my teacher!!" If I had previous teacher here now.... well. I'm not usually a violent cat but my hackles were a tad raised....

It took about 3 seconds to realise said pupe couldn't read one single note....or rhythm...and a few terms on the parents are giving me grief over why said pupe hasn't taken Grade 6 yet....

Doom.

I despair!

Baggle x

Jenny - My experience has taught me to be cautious when parents ring to enquire about lessons, and I always ask if the child has had any lessons before, and if so, why they are changing teachers at this stage.

In the past I had a child come to me who had taken, and passed, a grade 1 exam (Trinity I think, it's a few years back now). Every piece of music in the book had finger numbers, letters, sharps and flats marked in, including the scales, and she still could not play one of her pieces to me to demonstrate her progress. She did not last long, as my insistence that she learn to read the notes did not go down too well.

As your other respondents have said, I don't mind the odd finger number marked in pencil, but at my suggestion only, and only if a persistent error makes it unavoidable.

I once turned pages during an organ recital given by a very distinguished organist, and was surprised to see that he had pencilled in the letters for one or two of the highest notes.

I'd suggest not showing your sense of shock to quite the degree expressed here, though, folks: after all, it's just paper and print - why not just move on to another piece and suggest that this be left unmarked - or if you really want to teach on the marked one, the sticky part of postits could cover up the offending writing? Making a fuss is unlikely to enamour you with a pupil if they had a soft spot for your predecessor, and calmly showing them how they can still make progress in playing, and also now progress in reading, would be the way to go.

One parallel is that when we're learning to read words, we don't usually have the pictures drawn in above . I'm with Seer Green on the issue of pencilling in some fingerings though, and for 'orrible ledger lines in music played on the instruments I'm less good at, I also write in note names . At dip. level...

I sometimes pencil letters in for notes with ledger lines. My eye-sight is changing and in poor light the lines merge together and I can't always tell where the stave ends and where the ledger lines start without peering closely at the music, which obviously I can't do while I'm playing.

I teach a little girl aged 6 who came in to her lesson a few months ago with all sorts of numbers and note names written above notes, and the few finger numbers i had written in crossed out and replaced with wrong finger numbers. Turns out "grandma" had been down on holiday visiting, listened to the child playing and informed her that thumbs were not numbered and finger number two (index finger as older people refer to it as) was number one. This led to all sorts of confusion and the child telling me "grandma said you are wrong". I spoke to the child's mother about it and sorted it out, but how infuriating!! It set us back a good few lessons as i had to try and undo everything the grandma had told my student! If only i'd met "grandma".....

I inherited a grade 5 piano pupil, who had scraped a pass (on the pass mark) at grade 3, skipped grade 4 and was working towards the grade 5. Most of the letter names were written in and ALL of the finger numbers - it was extremely difficult to read the music amongst all the pencil markings. These were done by the previous teacher. It turns out, that even at this grade the child was only getting 15 minutes of tuition a week and shared her 30 minute lesson with another pupil.

Suffice to say, she wasn't a grade 5 student at all, and she didn't last long with me on the piano when she realised I wouldn't do all the work for her. She's still with me for singing though 2 years later

Grandma had obviously either learnt a string instrument previously or had been taught by a very old-fashioned method indeed - my brother first learnt from a book which was VERY ancient when he started, and this was in the 50s. It was described as "English fingering" as ooposed to "continental fingering" and the thumb was marked with a +, with the fingers numbered as they would be on a string instrument. But O've never seen this for piano music since that time.

OTOH I've taught lots of people who also do violin and not one of them has got the fingering mixed up, which I find surprising.

Actually, when I've inherited a pupil, I've found that one of the best things to do is to 'start afresh' on a new piece, sometimes even a new book so that it creates a boundary and we feel there's a new beginning.

Sorry, off topic a bit.

I was taught like this when I learned to play piano - a + for the thumb, then 1 for the index finger, and so on. I had to relearn fingering when it went out of fashion.
I've been playing the piano for 59 years and I still sometimes write in the odd note name, particularly if it has lots of leger lines.
For my pupils I often write the name of the note for its first appearance and then I expect the pupil to remember what it is when they encounter it the next time. For fingering I often find that string players use their string fingering for notes - 1 for index finger etc.

I don't entirely agree with you Jenny. Othe teachers will probably want to shoot me but I use keyboard music with the letter names written in for early grade pupils because
a) the Progressive Keyboard series that I use does it and b) I have 15 or 20 min lessons slots sometimes with a pair of pupils, and I want to get them playing confidently as soon as poss.
If they progress to above G1 level I gradually start to take the letter names off.
For my piano pupils and private individuals: They read notation but I will write in letter names and finger numbers where necessary. I would definitely not use pen.

Not quite sure what it is you don't agree with.
This is a young person who has been having piano lessons for around 2 years and who clearly has the ability to read the music in front of her. This was established in our initial meeting and in her first lesson last week. The pieces I gave her to practise for this week were quite easy - deliberately so, as I wanted to see how much she could do between lessons. I don't know if her previous teacher had written on her music in this way or if she had decided to do it herself. One thing's for sure - she won't be doing it again!

In some very old piano books you come across 'English' fingering where the thumb is a + , perhaps this is what grandma was thinking of ? My mother used this system when she learnt before WW2 !

I work on the assumption that my job is to teach my pupils to read the music. The odd finger number is needed now and again for reasons already mentioned in previous posts, otherwise you end up with pupils playing by numbers. With no idea where to put their hands. I have encountered this with pupils transferring from other teachers and it takes an age to wean them off the habit, meanwhile the parents think you can't be much good as suddenly their child has taken a major leap backwards while you start to lay the foundations of note reading down. I find it very disheartening when I take on a pupil like this, dread to think how fed up the pupil must feel.

It's hard to tell how hard a teacher has been working to get a child to pay enough attention to the music.
I'm not talking about those who have genuine difficulties but those who steadfastly work on not taking it in.
I accept that there are different way of doing things and that people want different things from their learning but it really does have me mystified that someone would claim to have an interest in learning but choose to block out some of it.

I'm having similar problems with an inherited clarinet student who. if the progress through the tutor book was to be believed, was a fairly solid grade 3 level. His note reading is good and he knows the fingerings.
He can't play in time when the notes are no shorter than a crotchet. He was unable to hold a steady note for a couple of seconds. His tone is still pretty dire. His posture was poor and his fingers anywhere except near the tone holes, including tucked behind the instrument.....
I'm told that his previous teacher is an experienced player. I don't know if he'd been trying endlessly to sort out these issues or not but I do keep on getting some of those 'my other teacher said' comments. Hard to know in what context things were said and it it possible that the child didn't really get it...

I'm afraid I have to disagree with your comment about fingering. Whilst I am not a piano teacher, I feel that it can be invaluable to have a great deal of fingering written on when pieces become more difficult. In my mind, fingering is a very important part of playing the piano, and each person will have their own comfortable fingering for each piece they play and that is the fingering which will work best for them. Consequently, I feel that adding numerous fingering markings to a piece can help to solidify that fingering in a persons mind so that they use the same fingering each time, and then gradually over time it stays in their muscle memory, meaning that they can return to the piece 20 years later and play it once more without having to fuss over which finger to put there. Even if it is not completely in their muscle memory, they will still have their score with their comfortable fingering marked on, so it will be more easy for them to relearn without having to figure out the fingering all over again.

Like I said, this is probably only particularly helpful in the case of pieces around grade 7 standard and up.

Let me clarify - I was talking specifically about the situation where a teacher writes in every note name and finger number for elementary pieces. Not only does this serve to put off learning to read music fluently until it is much more complex, but it also gives completely the wrong message about the purpose of proper fingering, which is to indicate something unexpected.

My father (late eighties) still complains occasionally about "Continental fingering" and we still have some old music that is marked (ie printed) this way. It can be confusing for children (or perhaps I mean beginners of all ages) to be told in one lesson that your index finger is your 2nd finger and in another lesson that it is your 1st finger. My younger daughter was always getting her fingerings confused. Cello teacher was often heard saying things like "I meant a cello third finger".

Oh, absolutely. I'm always saying "if you try to read note by finger numbers, you WILL play wrong notes. That's not a maybe, that's a promise." Sometimes when I ask pupils even past grade 1 whether they take in the finger number or the note first, they confess that they do read the number instruction first of all. I remember a child reading quite confidently for about a line and a half and then stopping and looking very confused because there was a finger number over a note which wasn't the note currently under that finger, and she admitted that she found the two instructions impossible to reconcile (though she didn't put it that way of course)

About 25 years ago, when I was a relatively new music teacher in a school in north London, I attended a recorder teaching workshop run by a woman whose name escapes me now. She strongly advocated encouraging pupils to read the music properly straight away, and NEVER allowing them to write note names on the music. She was so right, and although it can make progress a little slow and tedious in the early stages, they all, eventually, learn to read the music.

I have applied this to all my instrumental teaching (mainly piano). The only exceptions I make are where there are numerous ledger lines, and I even find it useful myself to occasionally write in the letter name in such cases, especially if I am accompanying and I don't want to let the soloist down.

With regards to fingering, I occasionally find it useful to pencil it in for younger pupils or older beginners, but only when appropriate. With more experienced pupils, I encourage them to try out their own ideas for fingering. There is no "one size fits all". I myself have very small hands, and I sometimes despair of the editors' suggested fingering - I think certain ones assume we all have hands the size of a bunch of bananas!

I agree with the OP. I would never write in all the notes like this. They should be learning to read the notes.
I will occasionally write in the odd note name - as a reminder if it's a very new note - or a ledger line. I have one little pupil who begs to have all the note names written in because she doesn't believe that she knows them. I won't do that, but we do just put the first one to give her a start.

I quite often write note names in on bad ledger lines in my own music!

As for writing in the fingering. For beginners I mix it around. I will leave a piece with all the fingering in, but the next one I blot out most of it with a tippex pen. I do find that if I leave too much fingering out at an early stage then you get some very peculiar fingering such as CEG played with fingers 1,2,3 and I end up writing it back in.

My own teacher always wrote in all the fingering for every single note. He was very highly qualified and with an amazing pedigree. I don't remember using the fingering to read the notes -or getting pieces wrong because I'd followed the fingering, but my sight-reading is terrible, so it probably wasn't helpful.

For more advanced pupils, once they are are no longer learning notes, I would expect to write in the fingering for tricky passages. Don't others do that? I certainly do it for all my own pieces - they are covered in fingering, otherwise I wouldn't remember what I had worked out at the previous practice.