My friends daughters teacher has told her that her daughter is playing the wrong instrument. She has been playing the violin for 2 years and taking gr2 next week. This is the same level as my daughter, but they have different teachers.
The teacher hasn't said much apart from the child doesn't seem to understand much about the instrument and is at odds with it.

Please can somebody explain this to me as I thought that if a child was at gr 2 within 2 years of playing this was good. They are both 8.
I feel bad for my friend and don't know what to advise her to do. Also if the child is musical how will my friend know what would be the right instrument.
I have read on here in the exam section that poor marks in an exam could indicate the person was playing the wrong instrument, but I don't understand how you could tell in other ways

Can't answer your question but poor exam results could be down to a number of factors and wrong instrument wouldn't be the first thing I'd think of.

As a parent I think I'd be highly offended if someone had told me that my 8 year old child was playing the wrong instrument. At this age even if it is the case they are not loosing anything as there is plenty of time for them to change to something else. the benefits are that they are learnign to read music, develop musically, have the chance to use the skill to mix with other people. What does it matter if they are not "the best" at this stage?

At the end of the day it depends if the parent or child have fixed ideas on where they want to be in two years time, if they are in any sort of competition (even without realising it) as to what decision they should make. More importantly does the child like playing violin and do they enjoy the lessons?

I'd probably change teacher whatever the situation. The most important thing for us is to feel that we have the teachers support, that they have the childs best interests at heart (that doesn't mean telling us what we want to hear either). I would have thought this was the same for most parents and believe me once a teacher crosses that line there is no going back......

But this may be genuine advice - the child may have no sense of pitch! They may do much better on a different instrument and surely it is better to find this out as soon as possible?

I know it seems a bit mean to me too. Maybe the teacher feels she is doing them a favour though and I suppose at least shes not happy to take the money when she knows its wrong. I met them at a string group that both children play in. The organiser is the childs teacher and i know she is well respected. Obviously nobody has said anything to the child as its her exam next week. However, now I'm worried because they are both quite equal in terms of level. I hope shes not going to say my daughter is on the wrong instrument.
I'd still like to know how this is determined though.

I have had the occasional pupil who was obviously musical but struggled to get to grips with the flute even though breathing was fine - just holding the instrument and getting a decent embouchure was very difficult. Two, at my suggestion tried the clarinet or saxophone with a friend of mine and have blossomed into great players - just a change in arm position and the instrument physically in their mouths made a huge difference. I wouldn't necessarily take the teacher's suggestion as an insult - ask them which instrument they would suggest. Personally I started on the violin and could never quite get to grips with it - changed to flute and immediately felt comfortable. My son was a grade 5 cellist but said that it never felt right - changed instruments and ended up at a conservatoire

Could it be that the teacher doesn't want to teach the child anymore?

Thank you Norway, I know its not pitch as she is quite good at this. Can you think of other ways this is determined. I am concerned for both of them actually as how will I know if my daughter is unsuited to the instrument? How would any parent, if unlike this teacher, their teacher was happy to take the money and leave the child/parents in ignorance.

Perhaps I am cynical but "well respected" + "wrong instrument" to me reads as "child is not making the progress I expect and don't want her making me look bad."

Have you watched the child playing with the other members of the group? Does she look awkward compared to the others? If I were your friend I'd want a little more information about how the child doesn't understand the instrument and how they are at odds with it?

Could the child switch to your child's teacher? I think if the child is enjoying the lessons then that is the most important thing right now. Yes - maybe she will change instruments one day, but it shouldn't be because someone else decided that for her, and she will have learned important musical skills like reading notation, rhythm etc that she can take with her to the next instrument.

I listen to Perlman and think how the people who said he could NEVER learn to play the violin must be kicking themselves now.

Allegro, you have put the cat amongst the pigeons now though, but thank you. This child always complains that her arms ache when playing, so does my daughter. They both struggle with pitching on the instrument but are good at Aural. I think the sight reading struggles would be the same on any instrument, and they are young?

I'm beginning to wonder if I should ask this teacher about my daughter. I'm pretty certain there is no reason why the teacher wouldn't want to teach the child any more, she is good, practices regularly and enjoys it. The teacher as I said before is well respected and lovely with the younger ones. She accompanies alot of their exams and would have been our teacher but we had private as school were uncooperative.

Has anyone asked the teacher for an explanation? That's the first thing I would do, Much better than asking people on a forum who have never heard/seen the child play. The experts could offer suggestion after suggestion, but you would be none the wiser, and still not be in a position to offer advice.

I can see there are times when the teacher might be very justified in saying this and I don't know any of the people involved so I'm not trying to suggest the teacher is wrong. My biggest concern is the child is 8. There may have been better ways of putting it if they think the violin is not for the child or the child just isn't ready for the demands of learning an instrument.

Having two older teens I suppose I'm aware how much children change and develop particularly between 8 and 12. It's the age of the child that makes it uncomfortable not the comment itself.

Badstrad, see where you're coming from there. The group is for beginners though and I had considered this however, wouldn't the teacher wait until the results of the exam before saying anything. She has suggested they try another instrument and I personally trust her enough to know if she says this about my daughter she will be right. This is why I am going to ask her, as I am worried about my daughters ability now.
How good is the tuning supposed to be at grade 2. Is it supposed to be the same as for later grades, because if this is the case then my daughter is on the wrong instrument too, as her tuning is all over the place.

I can understand why you would want to ask the question but I wouldn't.

Does it matter at 8 as long as they enjoy learning?

I recently stopped teaching an 8 year old the piano because he was completely unsuited to it for a whole range of reasons. It's important to communicate well and to be specific about the reasons why, saying that it's not working at the moment but that the child has acheived x and y positive things and could succeed on another instrument/ voice in the future. It needs really careful handling so that the child doesn't think he/she has failed at music or that the teacher doesn't want/like the child.

Violin players are allowed to have their teacher help them tune up up to and including grade 5, so I really wouldn't be worrying about her ability to tune right now. FWiW I just use an electronic tuner. I can pretty much hear the relative pitches after three years or so of lessons, but I wouldn't be able to say "Yes that A is correct at 440Hz" without the tuner (unlike my teacher who can spot it a mile off) .

Waiting until the exam - no I think if the teacher had doubts they'd set the seed before the exam - so afterwards they can go "see I told you so" or if the marks are good take credit for the results. Like I said - I am very cynical (especially after reading what people have gone through on these boards). I really hope that I'm wrong and that the teacher genuinely has the child's best interest at heart.

I suspect I am not being as fair as I could be towards the teacher having had my musical dreams crushed by an unthinking teacher, many years back - basically said I was as talentless as they come. So I'm reacting from the point of view of how the child would feel to be told something like that - You are already getting worried "I am worried about my daughters ability now." and it's not you who's being told you're not playing the right instrument. So what would go through the child's mind?

Regardless of whether this seems to be the 'right' instrument if it's the one she wants to play does it matter?
She could change to a more 'suitable' instrument which she doesn't have much desire to learn and give up altogether.
If she enjoys it, is practising and is making some progress maybe it's just not the 'right' teacher.
No reason you shouldn't ask why.

I think much depends on the spirit in which this advice was given. I was advised to switch instruments at the age of nine (to another instrument also taught by the same teacher) because he thought the alternative would better suit my physique. He was right, and I continued with it to Grade 8, although I don't often play any more.

I don't think the teacher is necessarily being negative or discouraging - indeed they may have the pupil's best interests at heart. We don't know, but I agree with AnnC: much better to speak to the teacher directly.

Surely what is being talked about here isn't the ability to tune the instrument or detect whether an A is accurate, but whether the student's intonation is OK whilst playing. At Grade 2 I would expect it to be a bit dodgy.

In post #12 the OP asks about tuning - re-reading it I think you're right, it is intonation.

If there is an actual reason and it's explained then that's fair enough. I can understand if it's a matter of physique. My eldest was advised not to play sax because she was tiny, which was sensible.

I have an update and thanks to those who suggested talking to the teacher. my friend called her and the teacher said.

She was worried that child was struggling and not able to understand things she was being told, even though the teacher made various attempts to try different approaches.

It was positioning of fingers, not really understanding what the actual notes were and the positioning of arm which made her arm ache. All problems could be overcome but she suggested that it would be a struggle for the girl and basically she just didn't get it.

The teacher is the leading string teacher for the county and runs several groups, conducts orchestras, bands etc and has said she wants to keep in touch with child and see her in other groups etc.

She said that the work that would be needed for grade 3 would be beyond her and rather than the child give up she thought it better to interest her (parents) in another instrument maybe brass or woodwind. Then the pressure would be taken off the violin and she could continue at a lesser pace, if she still wanted to.

I do see this as positive now as I mentioned it to my husband and he said he had a clarinet pupil the same, told parents the same and within 6 months same child was in county youth brass band belting out his trumpet.
My friend is happy the teacher has told her too and my friend is looking into starting another instrument in september, so good timing really.

I think there can be a lot to be said for picking the right instrument, but it depends what you want out of it. If you have a burning desire to play a violin then no matter how suited you may be to a French Horn it's never going to be fun and it's never going to inspire as much practice as the violin would. If the aim is to play an instrument that is chosen and enjoyed then persevere with it. If the aim is to make as much progress as possible then a switch might be just what is needed. It may be that the child finds themselves frustrated with slow progress and difficulties later on, and the teacher is hoping that instead of feeling like a failure at the violin and giving up the whole thing as useless that perhaps she might convert to an instrument where she does feel musical and expressive and "at home" in herself. It does seem awfully early to say, though, unless there is an obvious physical feature like incomplete range of arm motion, contraction of a finger, etc.

I have always been a player of a middle instrument - treble recorder, mezzo soprano/first alto and I enjoy the structure of being the jam in the sandwich, so first violin never appealed to me. As it happens, the first day I arrived for my first school music lesson my violin teacher looked me up and down and said "Gosh, I should have got you a viola" - presumably because I was a very tall child with long limbs and long fingers. By that point the violin had already been booked out so I duly started lessons on the violin. Sure I made progress, but after my grade 4 it started to become awfully hard work, more so than would be expected of the progression up the grades. I started to fall behind the girl I was having my lessons with and really struggled with the instrument, feeling like I had sausage fingers.

At that same time, I had failed an audition for the schools string orchestra and also had 3 best friends who played violin, violin and cello. I decided that I would convert to a viola to make a string quartet with my friends, then brazenly showed up on the first day of orchestra rehearsals clutching my viola and begging to be re-auditioned. I got in. I also flew through the progress, going from grade 4 to grade 7 in 15 months. It seems my teacher had been right from the beginning, I should have got a viola.

My local music shop used to do an orchestra try-out day once a year which was great fun, and good business for them to enthuse children to want to get an instrument. You got to go around a whole bunch of instruments from their rental section and see what you seemed naturally able to play and what seemed terribly difficult. It probably isn't possible any more due to regulations about cleaning instruments that are used in the mouth (they just used to alcohol wipe them) but it was a great idea. The only instrument I have never been able to get any kind of meaningful sound out of is a trombone. Any other tuned instrument of the orchestra I can play (without huge considerations of tone and intonation!) at least either the Skye Boat Song, Happy Birthday or God Save the Queen. Trombone? Nothing. As an adult, of course, I am tempted to get a trombone, just to slay that demon.

While it's quite likely that she'll enjoy taking up a new instrument and could thrive with it, with the work already done on the violin making the task of starting a new instrument much easier, these reasons for quitting the violin don't entirely make sense to me.

Nobody's surprised when some young pupils take two or three years to get to Grade 1. Similarly, many children this age need plenty of time to consolidate the work done in first position before thinking ahead to the challenges of Grade 3. With the right choice of varied repertoire, and plenty of ensemble opportunities (anything from duets and trios through to string orchestras), there's plenty of enjoyment to be gained simply from making music at this level. Heck, even thoroughly working through every piece in Fiddle Time Sprinters could/should take a couple of years!

Senior post or not, your description comes across as a teacher focussed on a linear progression and on exams. If the child is enjoying taking part in the beginners' group sessions, what's the harm?

Edit: regarding the 'arm ache' issue, my hunch is that it's (a) a problem with technique or posture, or (b) an "I can't be bothered with this right now" excuse. Rather like the vague stomach ache on the morning of a scary test at school.

I've seen children at Guildhall (all strings) who are clearly very musical but also clearly playing the 'wrong' instrument for them. I always hoped that once they left they wouldn't give up music but change to an instrument to which they were more suited.

Christopher Dunn, who was in the Brass final of YMOTY this year, played violin from 5-11 - took up the tuba at 11.

I loved his performance...

..and he's probably a good example of why even somebody who shows musical promise at an early age may restricted to a certain choice of instruments, ones which suit small bodies. Although he'll have been working at a more advanced level, it'll be similar to the Kodaly principle of learning music first, then the instrument. With this foundation, he was presumably able to focus on the technical issues of the tuba from the outset, and knew where it was going to lead him.

Well, Christopher did have five-six years of learning Kodaly with me, and also Dalcroze Rhythmics, until the age of 11, plus the same amount of time playing the violin - so, yes, he had a really good musical grounding prior to learning the tuba, as you say.

I loved his performance too - AND I just discovered that he sings in a barbershop quartet with a lovely boy I taught at state primary school - I had no idea they knew each other!

I've always wondered why it has to be all strings at those Saturday morning classes, Cyrilla...

Cheap string instruments are also normally cheaper than even cheap woodwind. A very cheap and nasty violin can be ?35, a cheap and nasty flute is still ?99. There is also a big issue these days about any instrument which is put in the mouth, they need (theoretically at least!) to be hygeinically decontaminated before they can go back in circulation if a child quits and returns the instrument, and all reeds thrown away. I can see why, but then you see the kids all having a shot on each other's instruments and wonder why you bother!

I was going to say a similar thing about small children, although the curved head flute has become more common in recent years, most non-strings are not adapted to smaller people. You probably wouldn't start a 6 year old on a bassoon or even a French Horn unless their parents were going to carry the case everywhere for them. The child has to transport the instrument as well as play it.

Is it simply because it's for young children who aren't physically ready for wind or brass?

Actually, in France, the French horn is one of the instruments that is regularly offered to five year-olds along with violin, cello and piano. They start on a single horn (which is smaller and lighter than the "normal" double horn) and progress up through several sizes of instrument as they do with violins and cellos.

Yes, I think this is the reason - although of course there are other instruments that could be started at 6. They are pretty insistent that it's bowed strings, too - there are very few places for guitar and harp. Of course a lot of the children DO learn other instruments privately as well.