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Barry Williams
One of the problems with certain types of 'modern' music in church is that sometimes the harmonies are very badly written. Often, a judicious re-arrangment of the harmonies gives a better emphasis to the melody and removes the clearly unintended angularity of infelicitous chord progressions. A typical example is in 'Shine, Jesus, Shine', where the consecutive octaves can be acceptable if the pace is slow, as the composer intended. However, at the faster tempo most often chosen, the consecutives sound dreadful and spoil the effect. Simply re-arranging the bass line to rise produces contrary motion, (i.e. B, C sharp, D), which strengthens the passage and makes the music flow.

Similar difficulties arise with 'home spun' settings fo the Holy Communion and Responsorial Psalmody, where well-intentioned people with no training in harmony have devised a reasonable melody but cannot clothe the tune adequately.

In recent weeks I have deputised at a delightful church using a popular setting of the Holy Communion that has been harmonised rather poorly. I recast the harmonies and received many compliments from the congregation (and not one adverse comment) as to how well it sounded. I understand from a colleague who did something similar that the composer was delighted when he recast the somewhat basic chords.

I recall being told that the original version of 'Sandys' ("Teach me my God and king") was unprintable and it had to be reharmonised before it could be published, so this may not be a modern problem.

What do Board Members do when faced with a piece that simply would not pass muster at Grade 5?

Barry Williams
maggiemay
Thankfully I'm rarely faced with this, these days. But I would certainly rearrange / reharmonise if I felt justified.

As a slight aside, we attended an ordination at a London cathedral on Saturday. The congregational bits of the mass were, it seemed to me, pretty uninspired. At least they provided us with the melody line of the parts they wanted us to join in. But really - not very interesting.

I found myself longing for something with simple beauty, like the James Macmillan (I think) that they sing at Westminster cathedral - which grabbed me the first time I sang it
Barry Williams
QUOTE(maggiemay @ Jul 2 2012, 09:32 AM) *

Thankfully I'm rarely faced with this, these days. But I would certainly rearrange / reharmonise if I felt justified.

As a slight aside, we attended an ordination at a London cathedral on Saturday. The congregational bits of the mass were, it seemed to me, pretty uninspired. At least they provided us with the melody line of the parts they wanted us to join in. But really - not very interesting.

I found myself longing for something with simple beauty, like the James Macmillan (I think) that they sing at Westminster cathedral - which grabbed me the first time I sang it



Thank you Maggie.

Do you know if this is the St Anne setting or the Galloway Mass, please? If I recall correctly, one has been revised for the new roman catholic words. He did another very popular setting for the pope's visit.

There is such a dearth of good settings for the Common Worship Holy Communion texts. It is permissable to use the Prayer Book texts in Common Worship services, but the clergy seem implacably opposed to doing so.

Barry Williams
carol*piano
I haven't played in church for years, (and I was a pianist, not an organist), but when I was playing regularly, I used to regard choruses in the same way as I regard printed versions of pop songs - I'll give them the tune and the basic chord structure, but anything else is fair game to do what I like with, as far as I'm concerned. Consecutive LH octaves are common in anything supposed to sound "upbeat", but as a rule, they sound dreadful and I rarely, if ever, put them in. I am generally of the opinion that my arrangement is quite often superior to the printed one... wink.gif
maggiemay
Barry - I'm faintly ashamed to say that I don't know.

I do remember I've done a search more than once, (eg on you-tube recordings) and drawn a blank - which might rule out one or two. I have sung mass there with a visiting choir two or three times, and only certain parts of the mass are sung congregationally - thus I've not actually sung the complete thing. But a good memory of something lilting and rather singable.

Sorry - that should have been MacMillan with two capital Ms.
Splog
Barry, is the problem anything to do with a lot of modern liturgical music being designed to be played on guitars as well as keyboard instruments? Many amateur guitarists (myself included) play in churches, and like to keep things very simple, not just try and replicate chords which are designed for organs.
saxophile
I'd say - reharmonise it, but only if you don't have anyone singing a harmony line as printed! tongue.gif I sing alto in our church choir, and we've had a few interesting discords where the altos have been singing as per the page in front of them, and the (visiting) organist has been playing something different....
Keyhorn
Usually, in these circumstances I rearrange.

If, very rarely, one of these things crops up when the main (SATB) choir is on duty I'll rearrange, and provide choral parts as appropriate. HOwever, it's very rare that such a 'song' would make it through the choosing/approving stages.
Seer_Green
Part of the problem with worship songs is that they are written for guitar accompaniment. Most of the writers play guitar and what they end up with is a leadsheet with chords and lyrics (occasionally a melody). So often, well-meaning 'friends' offer to write these down; this usually involves playing it into the computer through a midi keyboard, hence the often obscure rhythms (one of my pet hates is 'I am a new creation'!). Songs like this, in the right setting and for the right congregation, are very effective when sung with a band - guitars, drums, lead vocalist etc. - after all, this is really what they were intended for. However much you try, it is virtually impossible to create the same effect with just organ or piano.
Vox Humana
I nearly always rearrange. Most of the Gumby songs used at our church are drawn from New Hymns and Worship Songs, which has the worst arrangements I have yet seen, mainly because of arrangers trying to write "modern" harmony with insufficient technique to do it (a Mayhew Diktat, I imagine). But His Nibs culls them from a variety of sources.

I use three different approaches. If I've lost the will to live, which is the vast majority of the time, I simply rearrange the accompaniment along the lines Barry describes and leave the tune in unison. I will usually try to vary the harmony a bit to get away from the eternal repetitions of chords I, IV & V.

If the tune is basically decent and the song lends itself to the treatment, I will arrange it in four-part harmony for the choir. I have done this with two or three pieces, including Stuart Townend's "How deep the Father's love for us", which, once barred correctly in 3/2 time to match the verbal accents and given a touch of harmonic variety, isn't bad as these tunes go.

My third approach is less benign. My tour de force is an extremely tongue-in-cheek four-part arrangement of "Meekness and majesty" with the chorus set in ridiculously elaborate counterpoint. The intention was to discourage His Nibs from choosing the piece and, touch wood, I think it might be working - we've only had it once in the last twelve months. At the other extreme, reducing "Father, I place into your hands" to plain, homophonic chords produces the musical equivalent of a "wet fish" handshake. I've done two or three of these. This is, of course, terribly irreligious and no doubt my eternal reward will be to burn in hades along with the clergy, but I figure that if a piece is rubbish to begin with there's nothing lost in showing it up for what it is. It's wicked, but sometimes I just can't help myself.
Czerny
QUOTE(Vox Humana @ Jul 3 2012, 01:32 AM) *

My third approach is less benign. My tour de force is an extremely tongue-in-cheek four-part arrangement of "Meekness and majesty" with the chorus set in ridiculously elaborate counterpoint. The intention was to discourage His Nibs from choosing the piece and, touch wood, I think it might be working - we've only had it once in the last twelve months. At the other extreme, reducing "Father, I place into your hands" to plain, homophonic chords produces the musical equivalent of a "wet fish" handshake. I've done two or three of these. This is, of course, terribly irreligious and no doubt my eternal reward will be to burn in hades along with the clergy, but I figure that if a piece is rubbish to begin with there's nothing lost in showing it up for what it is. It's wicked, but sometimes I just can't help myself.

wub.gif ph34r.gif
jch48
When Meekness & Majesty loses its 4 bar phrasing our congregation don't know when to come off the long notes (I guess if there's a music group leading the singing or people reading the score it would be different), so one one occasion I shortened these long notes to get a consistent 4 bar phrase length.
BerkshireMum
QUOTE(Vox Humana @ Jul 3 2012, 01:32 AM) *

I nearly always rearrange. Most of the Gumby songs used at our church are drawn from New Hymns and Worship Songs, which has the worst arrangements I have yet seen, mainly because of arrangers trying to write "modern" harmony with insufficient technique to do it (a Mayhew Diktat, I imagine). But His Nibs culls them from a variety of sources.

I use three different approaches. If I've lost the will to live, which is the vast majority of the time, I simply rearrange the accompaniment along the lines Barry describes and leave the tune in unison. I will usually try to vary the harmony a bit to get away from the eternal repetitions of chords I, IV & V.

If the tune is basically decent and the song lends itself to the treatment, I will arrange it in four-part harmony for the choir. I have done this with two or three pieces, including Stuart Townend's "How deep the Father's love for us", which, once barred correctly in 3/2 time to match the verbal accents and given a touch of harmonic variety, isn't bad as these tunes go.

My third approach is less benign. My tour de force is an extremely tongue-in-cheek four-part arrangement of "Meekness and majesty" with the chorus set in ridiculously elaborate counterpoint. The intention was to discourage His Nibs from choosing the piece and, touch wood, I think it might be working - we've only had it once in the last twelve months. At the other extreme, reducing "Father, I place into your hands" to plain, homophonic chords produces the musical equivalent of a "wet fish" handshake. I've done two or three of these. This is, of course, terribly irreligious and no doubt my eternal reward will be to burn in hades along with the clergy, but I figure that if a piece is rubbish to begin with there's nothing lost in showing it up for what it is. It's wicked, but sometimes I just can't help myself.

May I suggest a fourth approach? Some of the modern hymns have reasonable words (which is why they are popular), but appalling tunes. I feel "Father, I place into your hands" falls into this category, and am longing for the day when someone much more able than I can produce a tune which doesn't trivialise the words and put the emphasis in the wrong place (how could anyone write music for that last line, putting the stress on "can"? mad.gif ) . Are you up for it?!
maggiemay
Good point. And if we're talking about tunes trivialising words, you can't get much worse than meekness and majesty.

Hop skip and a jump on 'crucify', anyone? makes me feel ill every time. ill.gif
Seer_Green
QUOTE(maggiemay @ Jul 3 2012, 11:39 AM) *

Hop skip and a jump on 'crucify', anyone? makes me feel ill every time. ill.gif

rofl.gif
Splog
Hey all, before you rewrite all the modern church music - please spare a thought for the guitarists who have to play it..... We like our I IV and V. biggrin.gif (Hey, at least I know what it means)
Czerny
QUOTE(maggiemay @ Jul 3 2012, 11:39 AM) *

Good point. And if we're talking about tunes trivialising words, you can't get much worse than meekness and majesty.

Hop skip and a jump on 'crucify', anyone? makes me feel ill every time. ill.gif

I've just listened to this. Oh dear. ill.gif

And now I can't get the damn tune out of my head!
Vox Humana
QUOTE(BerkshireMum @ Jul 3 2012, 11:12 AM) *
May I suggest a fourth approach? Some of the modern hymns have reasonable words (which is why they are popular), but appalling tunes. I feel "Father, I place into your hands" falls into this category, and am longing for the day when someone much more able than I can produce a tune which doesn't trivialise the words and put the emphasis in the wrong place (how could anyone write music for that last line, putting the stress on "can"? mad.gif ) . Are you up for it?!

I have not yet gone so far as to write my own tunes, but there have been several occasions when I have come close. And why not? I figure that if His Nibs puts down a song that leaves no option but to learn a new tune, then it's not going to make a ha'p'orth of difference to the congregation what tune they learn. They might as well learn a sober one as a plinky-plonky one. The problem with His Nibs is that he really would like the music to be cheap, low-brow entertainment. On the one or two occasions when, out of sheer contempt, I have hammed up a hymn with e.g. glissandi, cheesey twiddles, or oom-pahs, he has made a point of telling me how wonderful it was and that he wants more of it. But I'm afraid I'm incurably Tractarian at heart, so there's no way he's getting it as staple fare from me. I'm a complete dinosaur in today's church; I admit it.
Keyhorn
QUOTE(Splog @ Jul 3 2012, 11:21 AM) *

Hey all, before you rewrite all the modern church music - please spare a thought for the guitarists who have to play it..... We like our I IV and V. biggrin.gif (Hey, at least I know what it means)


We have been discussing ways of making it acceptable to congregations and choirs with somewhat more traditional musical tastes, for whom restricted harmony with jarring progressions, etc., is not acceptable.

Sadly there are some who wish to thrust it on us.

For myself, I have no wish to make permanent such reharmonisations, etc. - they are for the particular place and time. Hopefully the item prompting such a course of action would not recur.
Swell Box
QUOTE(Vox Humana @ Jul 3 2012, 01:32 AM) *


My third approach is less benign. My tour de force is an extremely tongue-in-cheek four-part arrangement of "Meekness and majesty" with the chorus set in ridiculously elaborate counterpoint. The intention was to discourage His Nibs from choosing the piece and, touch wood, I think it might be working - we've only had it once in the last twelve months. At the other extreme, reducing "Father, I place into your hands" to plain, homophonic chords produces the musical equivalent of a "wet fish" handshake. I've done two or three of these. This is, of course, terribly irreligious and no doubt my eternal reward will be to burn in hades along with the clergy, but I figure that if a piece is rubbish to begin with there's nothing lost in showing it up for what it is. It's wicked, but sometimes I just can't help myself.


I like it! biggrin.gif

However, there are other ways of confounding music groups.

As I reported here some time ago, His Nibs at one church of our acquaintance likes to keep everyone happy, and sometimes encourages the music group to accompany the organ for some 'tunes', or vice versa.

On one occasion the lead guitarist strutted over to the console just as the first hymm song was being announced, jabbed at Middle C and said 'can you pull something out so I can tune this'. Well, the Larigot fell easily to hand, and the remainder of the service was accompanied by the organ alone. biggrin.gif

SB
Keyhorn
QUOTE(Swell Box @ Jul 3 2012, 05:11 PM) *


I like it! biggrin.gif

However, there are other ways of confounding music groups.

As I reported here some time ago, His Nibs at one church of our acquaintance likes to keep everyone happy, and sometimes encourages the music group to accompany the organ for some 'tunes', or vice versa.

On one occasion the lead guitarist strutted over to the console just as the first hymm song was being announced, jabbed at Middle C and said 'can you pull something out so I can tune this'. Well, the Larigot fell easily to hand, and the remainder of the service was accompanied by the organ alone. biggrin.gif

SB


Yes, I recall - in another place - noticing someone down below applying some sort of clamp to their fingerboard, presumably to convert to a different, fixed, tuning.

However, on hearing them play along with a hymn playover on the organ the resulting tuning was so excruciating that I transposed the tune every couple of verses in self-defence. The cong. felt (or so some of them said afterwards) that they were being taken on an exciting journey!
grouse79
I play almost exclusively from Mayhew's Hymns Old and New and I don't think there is a single hymn where I play (or try to play!) exactly what is written. Over time I've got used to which notes to avoid, when to play in a totally different time signature, and so on. I'm afraid I'm one of those people who just "plays" rather than sitting down and working out the fingering, something I've been trying to amend for a while. The previous organist did arrangements of some frequently used hymns and I've done a couple myself but I find it very time-consuming. A long term project probably. Some hymns simply are not suited to the organ. I'd humbly suggest the following which fill me with dread whenever I see them down on the list:

City of God
You Shall Cross the Barren Desert
Eagle's Wings - fortunately I was able to convince the priest this wasn't suited to the service where there is no choir. However it can be popular with weddings so I play it with mostly appregios in the left hand and the right hand has the melody with an occasional bit of harmony if I'm feeling brave.

It works both ways - my parents lead a group with guitars, violins, flutes, etc. and things like Dear Lord and Father of Mankind don't really work with that set-up. For the Christmas and Easter Vigil services we join forces so there is some variety in the hymns.
Vox Humana
QUOTE(maggiemay @ Jul 3 2012, 11:39 AM) *
Good point. And if we're talking about tunes trivialising words, you can't get much worse than meekness and majesty.

Meekness and majesty:
Oh, what a travesty!
Imperfect harmony?
Who gives a s0d?
Swell Box
QUOTE(Swell Box @ Jul 3 2012, 05:11 PM) *

QUOTE(Vox Humana @ Jul 3 2012, 01:32 AM) *


My third approach is less benign. My tour de force is an extremely tongue-in-cheek four-part arrangement of "Meekness and majesty" with the chorus set in ridiculously elaborate counterpoint. The intention was to discourage His Nibs from choosing the piece and, touch wood, I think it might be working - we've only had it once in the last twelve months. At the other extreme, reducing "Father, I place into your hands" to plain, homophonic chords produces the musical equivalent of a "wet fish" handshake. I've done two or three of these. This is, of course, terribly irreligious and no doubt my eternal reward will be to burn in hades along with the clergy, but I figure that if a piece is rubbish to begin with there's nothing lost in showing it up for what it is. It's wicked, but sometimes I just can't help myself.


I like it! biggrin.gif

However, there are other ways of confounding music groups.

As I reported here some time ago, His Nibs at one church of our acquaintance likes to keep everyone happy, and sometimes encourages the music group to accompany the organ for some 'tunes', or vice versa.

On one occasion the lead guitarist strutted over to the console just as the first hymm song was being announced, jabbed at Middle C and said 'can you pull something out so I can tune this'. Well, the Larigot fell easily to hand, and the remainder of the service was accompanied by the organ alone. biggrin.gif

SB


There was another occasion at said church, when we processed to the quire only to find a collection of 'percussion instruments' cluttering up the seats. I had to remove a Xylophone set before I could sit down. mad.gif

I was sitting beside His Nib's brother, (Tenor and occasional guitarist), so I gently asked whether the Xylophone was there to be rung during communion?

I think you can guess his response, and offending instrument was quickly moved out of temptation's reach. biggrin.gif

SB

vectistim
Generally the worst excesses in the Mayhew books come with guitar cords, often with these I can pretend its a Mozart piano sonata and give 15351535 etc semi-quavers in the left hand.
Alternatively, if its plausible to play it in 3 I might treat it as a waltz and have the left hand go 1 810 810 (if you see what I mean)
dotted quaver
QUOTE(Barry Williams @ Jul 2 2012, 09:18 AM) *


What do Board Members do when faced with a piece that simply would not pass muster at Grade 5?

Barry Williams
I have only encountered this problem with 'music' chosen by the Sunday School. I just cringe and play it as written, I don't have the time or energy to waste on it, and apart from myself and my deputy, nobody else would notice any difference! Having said that, there are many hymns which had much nicer/better harmonies in our last hymnbook, so frequently we use it! Sadly, none of the congregation are any the wiser! rolleyes.gif Why can hymn arrangers not leave harmonies alone - and that includes transposing it into a different key for the sake of it!

SB & VH - I like your style! laugh.gif

QUOTE(maggiemay @ Jul 3 2012, 11:39 AM) *

Good point. And if we're talking about tunes trivialising words, you can't get much worse than meekness and majesty.

Hop skip and a jump on 'crucify', anyone? makes me feel ill every time. ill.gif
laugh.gif

QUOTE(Swell Box @ Jul 3 2012, 05:11 PM) *



On one occasion the lead guitarist strutted over to the console just as the first hymm song was being announced, jabbed at Middle C and said 'can you pull something out so I can tune this'. Well, the Larigot fell easily to hand, and the remainder of the service was accompanied by the organ alone. biggrin.gif

SB
rofl.gif clap.gif Since when did a guitar tune to middle C, or could he not find the right note?
Swell Box
QUOTE(dotted quaver @ Jul 4 2012, 05:04 PM) *


SB & VH - I like your style! laugh.gif

QUOTE(Swell Box @ Jul 3 2012, 05:11 PM) *


On one occasion the lead guitarist strutted over to the console just as the first hymm song was being announced, jabbed at Middle C and said 'can you pull something out so I can tune this'. Well, the Larigot fell easily to hand, and the remainder of the service was accompanied by the organ alone. biggrin.gif

SB
rofl.gif clap.gif Since when did a guitar tune to middle C, or could he not find the right note?



It was my 17 year old son who was playing at the time. I must say I was proud of him for being so resourceful and quick thinking in the face of adversity. I cannot think where he gets his ideas from. biggrin.gif


QUOTE(Czerny @ Jul 3 2012, 01:57 PM) *

QUOTE(maggiemay @ Jul 3 2012, 11:39 AM) *

Good point. And if we're talking about tunes trivialising words, you can't get much worse than meekness and majesty.

Hop skip and a jump on 'crucify', anyone? makes me feel ill every time. ill.gif

I've just listened to this. Oh dear. ill.gif

And now I can't get the damn tune out of my head!


How about; Jesus Rode a Donkey into Town? sad.gif

SB
Barry Williams
QUOTE(maggiemay @ Jul 3 2012, 11:39 AM) *

Good point. And if we're talking about tunes trivialising words, you can't get much worse than meekness and majesty.

Hop skip and a jump on 'crucify', anyone? makes me feel ill every time. ill.gif


Equally bad is the 'skip' in 'Lord For The Years' which seems to serve no purpose. I always iron that one out ( as well as re-harmonising).

Barry Williams
Vox Humana
Yes, a pointless bit of pseudo with-it-ness.
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