Hi

Ive been teaching electronic organ and keyboard for 11 yrs now, and teach a lot of children. But i still get parents saying 'well we let them get on with it'!!!

Apart from telling the parents nicely, what else can you do??

I am not a teacher, but a student, and what I find useful is what my county give out to all the people having music lessons. It is a little practice book which has room for the teacher to write down what is needed to be done, how much practice a child does a day, a message from teacher to parent and vice versa. In the front it has the child's name, school, and most importantly, how long they should practice per day. This means the teacher can clearly say how long they have practiced, and children are more likely to practice if they have set goals of what needs to be achieved.

Maybe, the parents need to 'wean' the child onto practicing. Maybe setting up something like a star chart for younger children, so with some many stars they get a reward or something.

Also, if practice happens at the same time every day, it builds into a routine. For instance, you clean your teeth without thinking about it because you have done it at a certain time for so long. So, maybe after they have come home from school, they eat, do some practice and then get rewarded by watching TV or something.

You also need to find out why the child doesn't practice. Have a quiet word to them about it, when they practice, whether they like practice, how long they practice.

Hope this helps,

Nicki

i know why 1 or 2 dont practise......its called something called 'soaps' on tv!!!!

Maybe they could record them, and reward themself by watching them fater they have practiced.

Nicki, yu mentioned those little books, well, we have those in our county, but they are always given out but never actually looked at by some teachers. I have been given loads since about year 9, but my teacher never wrote anything!

My teacher writes in them every lesson.

when i was in primary school in s.wales i used to have one of them for violin practise. i had to write how long i had done on each day..i used to lie!!!!

Apart from practice records, I'd appreciate it if teachers would be more specific on *how* stuff is to be practiced...I mean really obvious stuff like "pick one of these marked passages and practice it several times as well as playing your piece all the way through" and so on.

It's a great idea for parents to teach kids how to practice, but as all kids know, parents know n-o-t-h-i-n-g, and any rules or even hints regarding practice are likely to be fought tooth and nail if not *also* heard from the teacher's lips once in a while!

i tell both the pupils and parents what they have to do, as it sometimes (convieniently) gets forgotten by the pupils!

QUOTE (all ears @ Feb 13 2005, 04:05 PM)

Apart from practice records, I'd appreciate it if teachers would be more specific on *how* stuff is to be practiced...I mean really obvious stuff like "pick one of these marked passages and practice it several times as well as playing your piece all the way through" and so on.

I think most of my music teachers didn't even try to teach ME how to practice. One thing that gets neglected a lot, teachers seem to assume students know what practice actually involves, and students tend to assume it means "play your pieces lots" without really knowing how to practice effectively.

Enabling the student to find / take a space of time is the thing to encourage parents with (I've seen this in an ABRSM booklet too, I think), and also positive feedback and REWARD (the positive version of a bribe) to give them short term motivation. These are the two things I encourage the parents of my students to do. Doesn't always work, but one just needs to keep plugging at it, and also keep a long-term or whole-life perspective for some pupils (didn't practice early on, now keen....../doing GCSEs but keeping going with music..../ etc.)

Hey sorry for posting in the teachers board but I thought i'd say that those little practise books don't work where I live (jersey). My sister lies in the book and forges the signature and my friends that have music lesson also lie. The teachers are so distracted they don't even notice (the signature is so obviously forged). Because the teachers don't encourage them to practise they stay at the same level. My sister started in year 2 and is now in year 6, still "aiming" for Grade 1, as she was 3 years ago!

i used to lie too!!

but now im a good little girl!

QUOTE (gazdudeuk @ Feb 12 2005, 10:22 PM)

Hi Ive been teaching electronic organ and keyboard for 11 yrs now, and teach a lot of children. But i still get parents saying 'well we let them get on with it'!!! Apart from telling the parents nicely, what else can you do??

hi - same old story!! sometimes it helps when you advise the parent that the child is costing them TEN times what it should do as the same mistakes are being repeated every week due to non-corrective practise!!!!!!!!!! Also sometimes i would do 'spot-checks' asking the pupil what the corrective points in my notes for a specific piece were - they soon remember to read their notes and know them off by heart hence the errors are being remembered and corrected! Older children i would have a heart to heart with and ask them why evidence of practise isn't there and is there anything i could do to help (such as chill out from exams for a while and just play for pleasure) I did this with a couple and they even sat their a-level music their love came back to it after 12-18 months - just the break from repetitive exam work did the trick.

hope this helps

QUOTE (sarah-flute @ Feb 13 2005, 05:20 PM)

QUOTE (all ears @ Feb 13 2005, 04:05 PM) Apart from practice records, I'd appreciate it if teachers would be more specific on *how* stuff is to be practiced...I mean really obvious stuff like "pick one of these marked passages and practice it several times as well as playing your piece all the way through" and so on. I think most of my music teachers didn't even try to teach ME how to practice. One thing that gets neglected a lot, teachers seem to assume students know what practice actually involves, and students tend to assume it means "play your pieces lots" without really knowing how to practice effectively.

couldn't agree with you more sara!!!! i use the 'egg timer' practise method with the infants so that they don't jaundice themselves in the first few months!!! isolating iffy bars and practising them 5 times BEFORE beginning piece is another one i use ALL the time and lastly NEVER never practise when tired..... never begin practise with the same ...play three scales inbetween each piece...teachers correction notes should sit along side book.......and practise EACH day with one day off mid-week..never leave it off to the night before.disaster!!!

also my sooty and sweep quip 'practise makes perfect!'

QUOTE (Host @ Feb 15 2005, 10:55 PM)

Hey sorry for posting in the teachers board but I thought i'd say that those little practise books don't work where I live (jersey). My sister lies in the book and forges the signature and my friends that have music lesson also lie. The teachers are so distracted they don't even notice (the signature is so obviously forged). Because the teachers don't encourage them to practise they stay at the same level. My sister started in year 2 and is now in year 6, still "aiming" for Grade 1, as she was 3 years ago!

that is shocking!!!! change your sister's teacher IMMEDIATELY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That really is sad to hear as at the end of the day it is progressing and enjoying the instrument which counts - i think your sister's teacher is more interested in the fees than the progression of her pupils.....dreadful to hear this. send her to me in Ireland!!!!!

I think this teacher is talking about peri work, which is very different to home teaching.

When you teach in a school you may only teach 10 lessons a term.

You may have groups of 3 or 4 or even more.

Some schools send the pupils in for 10 minutes each!

The kids often have to take responsiblity for getting themselves to lessons, which means leaving another lesson; they sometimes forget, or sometimes the teacher won't let them go because they're doing a test or something.

The teacher has no contact with the parents.

Sometimes you have to teach in a room that's not much bigger or better than a broom-cupboard.

Sometimes you have to spend precious minutes hunting around for stands.

Sometimes the pupils forget their music, or even their instruments!

Tuning 3 or 4 violins can eat up precious minutes, when the pupils aren't ready to do this themselves.

Sometimes the pupils are all at different levels!

Then you're surprised it can take 3 years to reach grade 1 standard?

Violinia

QUOTE (Violinia @ Feb 16 2005, 12:01 AM)

I think this teacher is talking about peri work, which is very different to home teaching. When you teach in a school you may only teach 10 lessons a term. You may have groups of 3 or 4 or even more. Some schools send the pupils in for 10 minutes each! The kids often have to take responsiblity for getting themselves to lessons, which means leaving another lesson; they sometimes forget, or sometimes the teacher won't let them go because they're doing a test or something. The teacher has no contact with the parents. Sometimes you have to teach in a room that's not much bigger or better than a broom-cupboard. Sometimes you have to spend precious minutes hunting around for stands. Sometimes the pupils forget their music, or even their instruments! Tuning 3 or 4 violins can eat up precious minutes, when the pupils aren't ready to do this themselves. Sometimes the pupils are all at different levels! Then you're surprised it can take 3 years to reach grade 1 standard? Violinia

I couldn't agree more. Yes, grade exams can be achieved in these conditions, but it can take a lot longer! Those students I've entered for grades at school have all been exceptionally keen, and either very well organised or had extremely supportive parents. It is much harder to achieve an 'average'-whatever that is-level in the usual time you'd expect.

I've only had one school-based pupil take an exam so far (I've been working in 2 schools for just over a year). I put a girl in for Grade 2, and gave her 2 extra 1-hour length lessons, free, at my house! Then I found her an accompanist, made sure she got a good rehearsal in with her before the exam, and went with the pupil and her mum to the exam so I could tune the violin at the last minute etc.

She got 126 and lots of good comments and was very pleased. She and her co-pupil are now working on Grade 4 (a year on). I'm going to put the same effort in with both of them, and with all the other school-based pupil who are doing exams. I really don't see the point of them taking them unless they can aim for at least a merit.

With violin, as far as I can see, that's the kind of effort you have to put in if you have to teach groups in a broom-cupboard for 30 half-hours a year (if you're lucky) and care about them doing well rather than just scraping through.

Violinia (sigh)

At my children's primary school for a lot of years no violins were put in for exams - which wasn't great when they were going on to their next schools as sometimes if nos. were too high they were selecting those who'd done exams to carry on with lessons. 2 years ago when my eldest was in P7 amother mum & I asked the teacher if we could get them to do an exam - Gr 2 as it happens for our 2 & Gr 1 for 3 others. The teacher was fine about it so the other mum & I went into the school regularly over several weeks to help ( with the teacher & school's blessing). The other mum played for them, we both worked on aurals with them. I heard scales, arpeggios, tried to get them to listen to the sound they were making & spent time hearing them play individually.Also went with them to the exam & tuned their violins for them. Everyone passed well - there were a couple of merits & my child got a distinction.
Since then the school & teacher asked me if I would carry on going into school weekly - I get on well with the teacher - I most certainly am not trying to do his job. But I listen to the kids, try to help the ones that are finding it difficult & try to get them to play in parts for some fun & easy pieces. Last year we put 2 P6 kids in for Gr 1. & I put in the same sort of time again with them. I played for them (& in the exam- good for my experience as well) did aural,scales etc. One child that I had truly despaired of got a merit & mine got a distinction. I was really pleased. BUT maybe I'm only doing what their parents should be doing anyway - helping them & being involved.

Violina
Thanks for your explanation of the school-peri system - it has helped me a lot and makes sense of our situation. I'm the ultra-supportive parent with a keen 6 yr old girl who last year started primary school and was accepted to be taught violin by the peri. I wasn't prepared for the lack of feedback, little communication, little idea what was going on, no idea on practice.
And young kids don't tell you what goes on in the lesson and won't ask the questions they need answers on - I don't play the violin myself so I'm often at a loss. I thought taking up cello would help and it does, but not enough to help on the detail.
Seeing it from your side makes it easier to understand. You are very dedicated to the cause, and I hope it's appreciated by those involved.

QUOTE (sarah-flute @ Feb 13 2005, 05:20 PM)

QUOTE (all ears @ Feb 13 2005, 04:05 PM) I'd appreciate it if teachers would be more specific on *how* stuff is to be practiced...I mean really obvious stuff like "pick one of these marked passages and practice it several times as well as playing your piece all the way through" and so on. I think most of my music teachers didn't even try to teach ME how to practice. One thing that gets neglected a lot, teachers seem to assume students know what practice actually involves, and students tend to assume it means "play your pieces lots" without really knowing how to practice effectively.

I often find that the exam candidates I accompany don't know how to practise. I explain to them that they have to have completely different systems for performing (including sight-reading) and practising. When they are performing I want to hear a noise for every note and nothing for every rest. If something goes wrong, they have to pretend it hasn't, and keep going. When they are practising they need to play either a whole piece or a section noticing anything that goes wrong, then go back and correct it however slowly it needs to get it reliably right several times. I always suggest that they then leave it "to soak" rather than trying to play the passage again up to speed straight away.

One thing that I often find myself explaining in words of one syllable is that there's no point in correcting a wrong note and going straight on. When you play a wrong note you have actually made some sort of wrong move. If you then correct the note and go straight on you have made not one but TWO wrong moves, one onto the wrong note and one off it again, but still haven't practised the correct one!

QUOTE

One thing that I often find myself explaining in words of one syllable is that there's no point in correcting a wrong note and going straight on. When you play a wrong note you have actually made some sort of wrong move. If you then correct the note and go straight on you have made not one but TWO wrong moves, one onto the wrong note and one off it again, but still haven't practised the correct one!

I absolutely agree. What really irritates me is when they say "Oh that bit always goes wrong". And then you point out that of course it does because they've probably never played it correctly. I call this "practising mistakes" - they usually get the message! Oh, and it applies in scales too of course.

Problem is, too many pupils have not been taught how to practice properly, so their assumption is that if something "always goes wrong" they need to keep playing it until it magically "goes right". They need to be taught that there are effective ways to tackling the problem.

QUOTE (sarah-flute @ Feb 19 2005, 07:45 PM)

Problem is, too many pupils have not been taught how to practice properly, so their assumption is that if something "always goes wrong" they need to keep playing it until it magically "goes right". They need to be taught that there are effective ways to tackling the problem.

I agree- how to practice needs to be taught- and not just one method suits all players or all problems either. I know I have to be quite fierce with myself to be clear when I am practicing and when I am playing for fun, and not to confuse the two.

Practising- the noble art of repeating mistakes while praying it miraculously goes right!

'Practice does not make perfect, it merely consolodates imperfection.'

QUOTE

I heard scales, arpeggios, tried to get them to listen to the sound they were making & spent time hearing them play individually.Also went with them to the exam & tuned their violins for them. Everyone passed well - there were a couple of merits & my child got a distinction.

Well that's interesting. There's certainly a huge difference between the violin and other instruments where the positions for the fingers are in fixed places - like the piano for example. Flute players will always object to this by saying you cna play a flute out of tune, which is true, due to position of the two parts of the instrument, and embrochure, breath etc, but not to the extent you can play out of tune on the violin!

Another difficulty with the violin is bowing/tone. So if you have a child who doesn't practise, has been previously badly taught, has a frankly horrible tone, plays out of tune and no burning desire to work on any of it - you're scuppered with them as far as them achieving a good grade mark.

But having said all that, you do get kids with parents who support them in their practise, and who really want to do well - and they can get there; but they do need a lot, both from you the teacher and from the family.

Violinia

''The fingers are in fixed places - like on the piano for example'' (Violinia) Sorry - have yet to work out the quotes business - but how do you work THAT one out??!! Take a look at Giga, A1 Gd1 - both hands move around every bar, with plenty of scope for mis-hits. Admittedly, tuning isn't our problem.. but reading in 2 clefs simultaneously? Co-ordination? Single line instruments have it so easy (Ducks to avoid missiles) OUCH!!

Maybe we should conceed that every instrument has its difficulties that are an intergral part of it, and move on!

My biggest concern I have now I'm "going it alone", is that I may be practising in mistakes I have no idea I' making. Short of finding a CD recording of every piece I attempt to learn, does nayone have a suggestion of how to get around this?

Sorry to gatecrash.

QUOTE (Helen VJ @ Feb 21 2005, 03:58 PM)

''The fingers are in fixed places - like on the piano for example'' (Violinia) Sorry - have yet to work out the quotes business - but how do you work THAT one out??!!

lol

I think what violinia means is that at least when you hit a C on the piano, you know it'll be a C, assuming the piano is in tune. But actually I do find the piano one of the hardest instruments, trying to read two clefs and all... eek! though violin I would still say is harder.

QUOTE (sarah-flute @ Feb 21 2005, 05:32 PM)

[I think what violinia means is that at least when you hit a C on the piano, you know it'll be a C, assuming the piano is in tune. But actually I do find the piano one of the hardest instruments, trying to read two clefs and all... eek! though violin I would still say is harder.

this is very true-when you play piano music you are reading 2 staves simultaneously, in different clefs. To achieve a grade 1 standard on the piano, you have to be able to move fluently around the keyboard starting from different places, in both hands, often at the same time.

I guess different instruments require different strengths. It would be possible to do well on the piano without having the greatest sense of pitch - but much harder (I would think) on the violin. A pianist on the other hand must be able to cope with his hands being absolutely independent from each other - for instance some composers writing say triplets in one hand and quintuplets in another (eek!) - obviously all instruments require the hands to work seperately, but at least on most they are working in tandem!