In my area recently a lot of young people have started to teach piano. They do have grade 8 but don't do music in college, and don't have any intention of doing diplomas etc. Obviously they are trying to earn money for college but I feel that myself and other teachers in the area who have qualifications and teaching is our main income will lose out.I also wonder what will happen when they finish college in the next couple of years and go to work somewhere else. They will undoubtedly have to let all their students go. I pay tax and have worked really hard over the years to establish myself. I was wondering what other teachers think about this. Am I being selfish? Am I overreacting? At the moment I am very worried about my numbers for September. There seems to be no way of controlling this.

I used to worry about this. There is a private music school close to me that actually employs people like this! They have actually indirectly benefitted my business greatly over the years - many of their disatisfied clients have come to me. Unfortunately I have had to sort out a lot of problems caused by some of the dubious teaching the children have received which is sad. I have several people on my waiting list who used to go there. If the teachers are poor at what they do, people soon find out. If they are good, then good luck to them, I say!

It just really annoys me that I have put a lot of hard work in over the years and am always learning and really care about my students. I made the decision that this would be my livelihood and am really committed to it. They will probably move on in a couple of years and won't think twice about it.

I'm a college student and I know some of my musical friends do this, though I personally wouldn't dare. Most of them play at a much higher level than me (I got a DipA 1.5 years ago) and charge about half as much as more qualified teachers in the area. So if they're less qualified, they're presumably getting paid as such, and there isn't anything unfair about it, is there?

I find that reputation is very important to the people who really care about their children's musical education. It may not make such a difference to your teaching practice as you may think - many of the families I teach wouldn't have dreamed of going to a young inexperienced teacher. Conversely, we all had to start out somewhere. I cringe when I think of how I taught my first pupils. In twenty years' time, I may well cringe at how I am teaching now.....

I shouldn't worry - there's nothing you can do about it excpet concentrate on being the best teacher you can and providing a great service for your pupils.

In any profession you need qualifications. A primary school teacher has to be qualified, they wouldn't get a job because they have an interest in it. I know reputation is important and hopefully that will stand to me. It's hard not to get frustrated though

I see it exactly the same way, although I can understand the worries (I used to have them as well in the past).

ma non troppo is totally right - you cannot do anything about it apart from being bitter and annoyed, and that helps no one. Focus your energy on the best service you can offer and being the best teacher you can be. If people go to them ONLY because they are cheaper, it is probably their loss and your gain - the clientele that is only interested in the lowest available rates is usually one you can do without anyway.

I DO believe however that even a beginning teacher (and yes, we all were one of those at some point, don't forget it!) should charge within the range of the going rates, albeit at the lower end.
I personally don't care if they have a piece of paper or not, it is their expertise that counts. We had many discussions about this is the past. They should undoubtedly charge less than an experienced teacher, but there is a lower limit somewhere imo. If you drop out at the bottom end so to speak, you are undercutting - that's not the same as charging on a sliding scale with regard to experience. Whoever deems themselves good enough to teach should also be good enough to charge beginning teachers' rates. Just my opinion though.

Having said this: I used to be quite annoyed at a local Stage School who offered "singing lessons" to kids for under a Fiver a pop and taught in a completely age-inappropriate way (technique and content). Some parents weren't that stupid though - I now teach 4 of their former students because they noticed pretty quickly that something wasn't right. So it all falls into place in the end.

Focus on yourself, not the others, that's the only thing you can do, and also the only thing that will make you happy in the long run. Constantly comparing ourselves with others doesn't do us any good, neither if we think we are better, nor if we think we are worse

Since there are no qualifications needed for teaching music then these students have every right to do it. You have no idea whether they are any good or not. They might be excellent. Everyone has to start somewhere.

Where I'd be annoyed (if I were you, I actually don't let it bother me) is if they were charging less than the going rate. I don't think it's right to undercut other teachers. When I started, I charged the going rate from the start because I didn't want to take business away from other established teachers. By making my rates the same as theirs, people were forced to judge me solely on my teaching skills and experience.

Be the best you can be. It's the only thing you can control. Getting worried about other teachers' skills or qualifications will only stress you out.

It's a market economy. We don't have any inherent entitlement to succeed while charged X pounds per hour, there's always going to be a wide range of fees and different opinions about what the 'going rate' actually is!

I totally agree. I had no idea what the market rate was when I first started teaching piano as a Student.
(many years ago)
I feel I was fairly effective at the time, having loads of enthusiasm and commitment to make up for my lack of formal teaching experience.

How do you know so much about these 'young' people teaching and their full circumstances? You don't exactly have to play Rach 3 to teach a 6 year old. Grade 8 is a high level and needs good technique. If the tax thing worries you why not report them to HMRC? (read subtext)

Or have a word with my teacher from childhood that didn't even have grade 8 and was a medical student (what a fraud) and got me to the point I could do music at university (not 'music college' mind you) and even leading orchestral player teachers commented on what I had learned. He was so encouraging and had amazing communication skills. A course colleague of mine was almost put off as a child by a conservatoire graduate with 30+ years experience and changed teachers.

I think this is a bad blanket statment as show by neil.clarinet techer. I will soon be in this position and certainly will be trying my hardest to teach and not just show the pupil the instrument for half and hour.

And aren't all teachers doing it for the money?

Neil.clarinet says 'Grade 8 is a high level and needs good technique' - over the years I have had taken many pupils through grade 8, some with appalling techniques inherited from other teachers and I would be horrified if I heard of any of them teaching, and have said so when asked if I thought a few could start. I see grade 8 as the bottom rung of a long ladder and shows the potential to be a decent musician and teacher. Others would make fine teachers because they analyse how and why they do certain things, have a solid technique and I am more than happy to encourage them.

Yesterday I took my youngest daughter to a ballet exam and I quizzed her about the relevance of this to her future - was it the same as music exams in that they were thought necessary standards for college etc. but it wasn't actually necessary to have the bit of paper? She said that they were not needed for dance school applications but that she wants these advanced exams because if she ever wants to 'train to teach dance' they are a requirement. I have long thought that the music teaching business needs a similar set-up.

Re.the OP - do the best job you can and don't worry too much about other teachers and their lack of qualifications. A good reputation will take you a long way.

I know everyone has to start somewhere and when I started I was no expert. However, I do know these people and know that teaching an instrument is not their chosen career path, whereas it is mine. Perhaps they are fantastic teachers but if they really wanted to pursue a career in this why not do it in college? Yea we are all in it for the money, but that's not the only reason I do it. I know you don't have to have qualifications to teach an instrument but does that mean that the ones I have don't mean anything?

I know many maths and physics students who tutor on the side. They have no interest in making teaching a career after university, but are just looking for a way to supplement their income. Is teaching piano for a while any different? Possibly seen as longer term, tutoring for GCSE etc doesn't go on for too many years.

This is very difficult as there's nothing to stop anyone setting up their own teaching business. Unfortunately, the country is full of people like this and I can think of several on my own doorstep. There's not an awful lot we can do except offer the best possible service we can. I've grown to accept that there'll always be degree of rogue teachers out there, but I have to say that from my own experience of inheriting pupils, they usually get found out in the end!

No, not at all, but ultimately, we can't change other people and what they do (or for what reason). We can only change ourselves and our focus.

No matter how annoying it may seem that some of us invest decades in learning an instrument and perfecting our skills whilst others might have less knowledge and are only in it for the money - there's nothing we can do about it. It's a non-regulated profession.

My suggestion would be: Vent your anger and frustration, it's what we all need at times, and the Forums are great for that . However, then move on and focus on what you CAN do: Offering a great service and superior knowledge.

People will, in the long run, always prefer learning with someone who offers a great service. You don't need to cry about the others since they're usually not in it for the long haul anyway.

Thanks for all the advice! I will probably be annoyed for another few hours and then fingers crossed I will get over it! I will concentrate on what I do and hopefully that will come across to students and parents. I do however wish there was some way of regulating it...

If they are I've missed the boat....


True that grade 8 doesn't necessarily mean having good technique or understanding of how and why.
I've seen comment on the forum from at least one with a decent grade 8 who from thier own decription had some fairly fundamental problems.


A good thought with the reality being that if it was an awful lot fewer people would have access to music lessons. Yes, some 'unqualified' people really don't have a clue but the same is true of those with very good qualifications. My least good , most inflexible teacher so far was always at pains to tell of not only music qualification but also of a degree in education.

I think you probably just need to get over it.
As has been said before, we all have to start somewhere, and for some of us it's never going to be more than "pin money": you're making the mistake of assuming that everyone wants the same from their music teachers, and yet if you look around these fora, you'll see that people are studying music with a huge range of motivations and interests. Yes, you put the effort into your own training and skill mix - you're likely to attract the sort of person who wishes to do similarly, and also more likely to demand of them that they learn similarly, but that's not everyone's aim: you'd almost certainly also feel a bit more fed up with the non-practising pupil, or the timetable-twister or impecunious pupil than another sort of teacher might: horses for courses.
You provide the rolls royce service, all bells and whistles, and let the likes of the hard up college student who is trying to survive through the next stage of their own education do the astra .

Interesting question and a difficult one to answer too. I agree with what many others have said in their replies about having a good reputation. I teach in a large city, and recently there seems to have been lots of people starting up teaching who are not qualified but seem to think it's easy money - many of them i know through the music scene here - some are fine, others are terrible and simply should not be teaching. The frustrating thing for me is the number of calls i get from potential beginners, and when told how much my lessons are, replying that "such and such" does lessons for "cheaper" and i don't hear from them again. Well, not until they've gone to the bargain lesson person and found out what they were like. Obviously as a professional my hands are tied and i can't let rip to them about the person they mentioned etc. It's annoying though that so many parents pick the cheaper option, but on the other side of that argument it's understandable if money is tight or they have a few kids all wanting lessons. I've taken on quite a lot of students, even in the last 18 months alone, who had been elsewhere and i was shocked at what they had, or more to the point, hadn't learned - even really basic things. I have a BEd (hons) degree in Music and taught/trained in many schools but to be honest, i have learned more from experience of several years teaching now. I know many wonderful teachers (I'm married to one ) who have no musical qualifications at all, but have years and years of experience in all types of musical situations, great musicians, understanding compassionate and enthusiastic people and have many pupils who do very well. I find my degree comes in handy when i get the occasional parent who asks what my qualifications are, and a grandmother on one occasion many years ago when i'd just graduated, who demanded to see a copy of my degree certificate which i had to bring in as i seemed "very young to be teaching".....

Honestly, I don't necessarily think any amount qualifications or even a excellent performing ability makes a good teacher. However, the teacher must have a solid technique to teach - that much I agree with.

I know what you mean! Some of the worst are the music 'schools' or 'studios' affiliated to shops. Glossy pamphlets, lots of pictures of guitars, surprisingly low rates...

Agreed. And I've got to say that most of the pupils I've taken on over the years who've had dodgy teaching have come from teachers with the 'right' bits of paper whereas the ones who have come from student teachers have generally been very carefully and diligently taught.
I've never been asked my qualifications in the 30 odd years I've been teaching, not even by the schools I've worked at as all my work has come through recommendation. If you are good and patient and kind people will want to be taught by you, no matter what qualifications you have or how much you charge

When the Henley report came out last year I remember there was a para in there about encouraging (almost 'requiring' actually) music students to teach instrumentalists as part of their learning and early career, and I remember thinking that although this was a laudable aim that there would always be young musicians for whom teaching would be an entirely unsuitable activity.

I don't have a problem with music students doing it. It's when people who did grade 8 but are doing something completely unrelated to it in college. I learned a lot through being involved with music and being in contact with other teachers etc. You can't get other jobs without qualifications and experience so why should this be different?

I come from Asia where A-level or university students often tutor younger students in subjects that they had studied before, but may not be currently studying. It's unregulated, and it's a bit of a punt who you get, but the good ones often get a reputation (and the bad ones too come to think of it) and become highly sought after. So in some parts of the world, "this sort" of job can be had without qualifications and experience. It can be both a good and a bad thing.

I could go out tomorrow and advertise myself as an acting teacher, or a fine art teacher, or a ballroom dance teacher, or myriad other roles which aren't covered by legally-required regulation or qualifications.


It's worth noting that El Sistema, perhaps the most admired music education system in the world today, includes the principle of learners of all abilities passing on their knowledge to those below them.

I don't think this is right at all. I don't plan on continuing music as a subject I study at university but I do plan to do my DipABRSM - does this not count for anything if I want to teach? Not all students who do a music degree will have this. Am I not allowed to play music at university if I'm not studying it ?!

What fun that would be! I fear my students would soon realise how bad I was at it though....

As I said, these students don't have any intention of doing diplomas. Of course you can play music. I never said you couldn't. My point is that this is my job and what I solely rely on. I have years of experience as do many teachers I am friends with. How is it fair that anyone who has done grade 8 can set up their own business? It sounds like hard work and commitment counts for nothing.

Precisely! I don't worry about competition from incompetent teachers, irrespective of their age, experience or qualifications.

The compelling argument that I can see for regulation is when you can do people irreparable harm of some kind by winging it. Doctors, driving instructors, accountants, classroom teachers (because screwing up kids' only chance of a full education is irreparable), and so on. Perhaps there's a case to argue that this list could include singing teachers in particular, but even then it's starting to get less compelling.

To Bumblebee8 - you can get other jobs without qualifications and experience, so that's rather a broad statement and not accurate, so you're not helping your own cause by using it. It is irritating that some students or their parents go to teachers because they charge less, and I've inherited some pupils from teachers who were teenagers themselves and have had to correct bad technique and misapprehensions. The only thing you can do is to advertise yourself as a well qualified teacher with X years experience and then parents can make their own choice.

To RAM - I'm sure that university orchestras, bands and ensembles will be very welcoming if you have a diploma and are willing to be a reliable and enthusiastic player in whichever group you apply to.

This is starting to sound like the mentality of medieval guilds!

Anyone can set up their own business. Not anyone can turn it into a sustainable success.

You're not accurate here: there are plenty of quacks and charlatans setting up practice in crystal waving and "energy fields", or astrology, or homoeopathy or whatever, claiming their peculiar remedies work for conditions, who get away with doing so: they provide a different sort of service for the gullible, and will not persuade those who do their homework and ask for the real thing: teaching is one of those skills which is learned early and to different degrees by almost every human on the planet. What you have to offer is trained tuition: people wanting to be taught by a trained person are not going to go to the teacher whose interests lie elsewhere, people who might just want a bit of experience of what music might offer, and who don't have the burning ambition to become great musicians will be happy enough just "picking a bit up" with others.
The problem of undercutting is a tricky one: there is some sniffiness about people offering tuition for less, but have those commenting on this thought about the fact that those who don't have such good training might well feel it'd be barefaced cheek (and be judged so by those complaining here) to ask the same as someone with lots of postnominals? I know that when I was approached by someone wishing to have tuition at a time when I'd never taught music before (cold-called, I might add - I had not advertised my services, nor had I thought of doing teaching!) I felt most uncomfortable about setting a price, and certainly wouldn't have felt that my tuition was "worth" the same as what my teacher was charging me. The lady calling became my pupil, on the understanding that I would be finding my way somewhat, and paid me not quite as much as I was paying for my own lessons: then whenever I got another diploma, she upped the remuneration to match. Is that really undermining anyone?

I started teaching piano 25 years ago, with just Grade 8.

Today, I still don't have any further qualifications, but I have achieved consistently good results with my students over the years, and intend to carry on doing so.

To BumbleBee:


I don't mean to sound harsh, but the path to happiness in life is to stop expecting life to be fair. Do what you do and excel at it to the best of your abilities without reference to others. I have been thinking a great deal about what you have said, and I understand your worries, but you are channelling a lot of energy at this issue in a negative way that you could be using towards positively expanding your own teaching practice. I mean this kindly.

If you are worried about your own pupil numbers, what about some kind of publicity event, like a concert? Or setting up a new website? This would also benefit your pupils and showcase you as a teacher. I think that if you put all your energy into this then you would stop worrying so much. Show that you are experienced and an expert at what you do. There will always be a market for that.

Surely parents and students who are serious about a musical education are more likely to come to an experienced teacher than a sixth former who is "dabbling" in it? I do think that you need to turn negatives into positives here, although I also understand your concerns.

Just a thought about those who object to being 'undercut': maybe those teachers charging a tenner a lesson more than you are using the same logic?

I see your point. However there may be many factors to as to why this person has 'only' taken exams as far as grade 8. Perhaps they do not have the time to study to diploma level, perhaps they cannot afford to, perhaps they are at a level far above grade 8 but do not feel the need to take the next exam.

This of course leads back to that never ending debate - at what 'level' can one become a successful teacher? You will find teachers on here who are teaching before they have sat grade 8, but are great teachers regardless.

If you are worried about losing pupils, make sure you are at the top of your game. Pupils know a good teacher when they find one.

Thank you for that response. I agree, it is in my nature to panic and look at things negatively. I will take on board all your advice and hopefully it will be positive for me. I am just a bit worried and needed to vent. I know there is nothing I can do about other teachers advertising but maybe thought someone would see where I'm coming from.

It is perfectly understandable to be worried and need to talk to other people in a similar position.

Thank you! I'm not crazy or unreasonable. I just want to keep my job and as I said I do tend to panic about these things!

I am glad if my post helped. We all feel a crisis of confidence at times, let's be honest. I always think I feel better if I do something positive to try to "solve" it if possible.

I am not a Buddhist, but I feel there is truth in this..........


http://www.karmamalas.com/wp-content/uploa...90_460_wide.jpg

Sometimes, the "justice" in these situations may take a while to come through - the sort of non-serious student who might not be interested in checking out a teacher's qualification, may well be the sort of student a serious teacher doesn't want to teach. The serious students will pretty quickly wise up to the fact that their non-serious teacher just isn't up to the job, and will find a more qualified teacher (such as the OP).

bumblebee8 - have you thought about stating your qualifications in your advertising? Kind of play them at the same game... Anyone can advertise anything but if you've got something they haven't, why not make the most of it?

I absolutely agree with Corenfa. Plus, people are far more discerning than one might imagine.

One of the most annoying things about being an engineer, is meeting technicians who will tell you they are engineers.

Like the irritating bloke who comes to fix the boiler and tells me he is a "central heating engineer" (before going on in great detail about how a valve or pump works, patronising me half to death). Because I respect the skill involved in fixing my boiler (after all, I can't do it myself), and want it fixed (it is winter) I nod and smile graciously, and don't enquire as to whether he can design and specify the valve or pump like a real engineer might. Or write the safety case for why my boiler isn't going to spontaneously combust.

We all can get a little insecure about our skills and expertise, and its jolly frustrating when someone else claims your (hard earnt) profession, without being a professional in that field. The only thing I can say is "you aren't alone"! Even surgeons get insecure:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-18855099

Misti, I was reading this article earlier today.

Can't say I would want my gall bladder removed by a tree surgeon though....

Is it better to be taught by a qualified teacher who is not a specialist in your instrument or someone who doesn't have formal qualifications beyond grade 8 but knows the instrument well, has attended masterclasses and summer schools and plays it themselves? It may not be possible for people to get to an ideal teacher if you live in a rural area so the lesser qualified but keen player who teaches a few pupils fulfils a useful role.

Sadly, there are teachers who disapprove of us 'unqualified' characters using the term, although not all of them are vocal about it.

Back when I was working for a music service, we had a meeting regarding swinging cuts which had been suggested by the council, including the possibility of switching from the dual pay scales for qualified teachers and for 'instructors' to a single one somewhere in between.

In the break, we had impromptu union get-togethers. The NUT only accept people with Qualified Teacher Status or NQTs, whereas the NASUWT also allow anyone else involved in a teaching role to become a member. The meeting for the latter mostly consisted of "But I though you had QTS?!" "No, but don't you?" "No!" "You neither?!"...