Over and over again with beginners - not all, just some, and not necessariloy little ones, I have this problem with adults as well - when we learn triple time they're fine as lonmg as we have either three crotchets or one dotted minim in the bar. But when the rhythm is minim-crotchet, whether this is for several bars at a sdtretch, or just one bar in the middle of the piece, they just can't get it. I have treid everywhich way, getting them to clap back rhythms, having them count the beats slowly and carefullly, singing the song to get used to the sound of that rhythms, working with and away from thw written out rhythm, emphasising the fact that the crotchet leads straight into the minim (three-ONE over and over) but some just get wedged on that final critchewt and can't move off it in time.

I'm not so much asking for suggestions as for a reassurance that everyone else also finds a significant minority of their pupils can't do it either. Sometimes I jast have to leave the piece where it occurs and come back to it when reviewing maybe even months later.

I have one particular little boy who's 6 and whose parents seem to think he's bright - can't understand why I say his counting is so dire in music because he is supposed to be "exceptionally good at maths". Yeah, this would be why sometimes when he has three repeated notes he plays two, and vice versa, right? (I don't actually say the counting is dire, btw, just that we still have to improve it). Oh, he can clap a minim followed by a crotchet all right. Followed by about a nother minim's worth of rest or hanigng on the the last note.

I know sometimes it's b ecasue they can't get rid of this 4/4 feeling they've played so much; I play strong waltz rhythms on the piano for them to play against. Still doesn't do it.

They need to MOVE to understand it.

You're asking them to intellectualise something that is at the moment beyond their semantic and processing abilities.

So go back a few steps (literally!) and get them to move a rhythm around the room 'Str-ide walk str-ide walk' which you have it playing with some harmony (on a CD?) then you can move and chant with them. Use hand gestures too. Stop trying to get them to count until they are able to FEEL.

But yes, it is trickier for most than 4 time because we have 2 legs!

Maybe play Happy Birthday, but initially just with minim-crotchet rhythms, omitting the second note & chord entirely. Still recognisable, but with a greater emphasis on the rhythm proving tricky.

With adults, the dominance of quadruple time, both compound and simple, in popular music (in the widest sense) definitely plays a part.

Can't comment on how children learn but I know that i could not get the weird rhythms in the last movement Rite Of Spring until I tried to walk to them (looking like I had three legs and a limp). There was definitely something about the physical feeling that made it sink in a bit better. It wasn't enough to tap it out on the table.

I must be lucky in that none of mine seem to have a problem with this although I do use a lot of rhythm games with movement well in advance of them meeting each rhythm on the stave.

Bx

Some of mine have problems with this too, and as well as clapping I've got some cards where the minim one is twice as long as the crotchet one. It works ok, but I need to bring it out regularly.

Many people have trouble with 6/8 rhythm, and this is essentially the same problem (think "Boys and girls come out to play"). It usually "clicks" eventually; I think you just need to be patient.

I'm not sure it always is the same, actually. Often the sound of compound time is no problem, but the theory behind the time signatures is a battle.

I'd agree with that. Since the 1960s very little popular music (wide sense) is in anything other than 4 / 4. Watch what happens if you have the misfortune to have to attend a disco and there's a piece in 3 / 4 - youngsters (in this case U60s!) are flummoxed. Most struggle to recognize 5 in a bar and 7 is deemed to be 'random', or at least irregular.

You don't mention what instrument it's for. I can remember some of the people on the forum and what they teach, but not everyone - is it piano? For strings the bow needs to get back to the heel twice as quickly but without emphasising the weak beat of the bar, so perhaps the conceptual difficulty is disguised by this, or perhaps the physical doing something different on the crotchet is actually helpful, never thought of it that way.

Sometimes I start with one, two, rest, one, two, rest (and in violin this involves picking the bow up and going back to the heel during the rest to mimic the motion of lift that gets you back to the heel ready to play another minim without running out of bow) but it might also help with people who are dying to put in an extra beat. Maybe get them to do something physical during the rest, maybe lift the finger from the piano and touch their nose and hurry it back to the keyboard ready to play again, so it's more like playing in double time then doing something.

Don't often find this problem. But my pupils do work quite a bit with pulse and rhythm, especially in the early stages.

But one thing I'd probably do is copy their way of playing -

and ask them to tap and count beats while I played -

One two three pause : One two three pause etc

How many taps are you getting in each bar?

If you can get your hands on some lego try getting the boy to replicate the rhythms with the lego bricks. I find the boys especially like to get to grips with rhythm by building the bars in lego. I use the 2x1 block for a crotchet, 2x2 block for minim, 2x3 for a dotted minim etc. we copy the note lengths with the lego onto a base plate and then clap, drum the rhythm out loud. Somehow the process of making the notes from lego then transferring it into clapping seems to help and the boys especially seem to enjoy it, not to mention me who will find any excuse to play lego now my own boys have outgrown it. Still trying to find a way of incorporating knex into my lessons too, any ideas anyone!

That's a good idea. Mind if I pinch it. I'm always on the lookout for boyish things to relate to piano.

Go ahead, let me know how you get on try and think for some uses for knex for me too!

As others have said, I find that most pupils have some type of trouble with 3/4 time - even if it's only slight. I agree that most modern music is in 4/4 so they are not so used to hearing it, or dancing to it.

At first there's a tendency to add an extra silent beat, subtly making it 4/4 without it looking like it! Each bar is played beautifully 123, and then that little breath for the 4th beat!! I catch it early and point it out and that seems to knock it on the head.

But, as you say Linda, minim followed by crotchet is a sticking point for a lot of pupils. We play minim-crotchet over and over, together, counting it, listening to it and then looking at the music whilst playing. I do a lot of rhythm work from the minute they understand the basic notes. I have sheets of rhythm sight-reading which we do at each lesson until it is secure - a bit like Flip a Rhythm, but only one hand and it starts really simply. I find playing to be better than clapping.

If they are really stuck with 3/4 then I do the bouncing ball thingy that Cyrilla told us about once.

I very much like the lego bricks idea. Consider that stolen!

Quite a few players 'read' the spacing between the notes rather than the actual note values. In 3/4 minim / crotchet the space between the notes can look equal so that's what they play. Others just read one note at a time-- and to get this rhythm right you have to read the crotchet with the following minim. If it's piano the left hand usually has a note or chord at this point which can cause a further hold up. One thing I try is to sing along and tap the note I'm singing with a pencil to show how the eye should be scanning.

Similar problems are stopping on the last of a group of quavers, and playing notes closer together than they should be if they're either slurred, staccato or a repeated note.

I must have missed that one. Please could someone provide a link?

I talk about beats of different strengths, in 3 time strong, less, least, and the idea of the light third beat leading to the strong first one. When I'm working on ABRSM aural test A differentiating between 2 and 3 beats in a bar I get the candidate (usually someone else's pupil that I'm accompanying) to march on the spot. I play chords on the beat in 2 or 3 time and ask them to notice which foot the strong beats come on. Even very small children know that they only have 2 feet so if the strong beats always come on the same foot it must be in 2 time.

A barline takes up space, but is only like a signpost saying "here comes a strong beat".

Something I haven't tried, but which might be helpful, would be to write a completely unbarred random series of minims and crotchets on a single line and get the pupil to play them. They could either play on one note or perhaps choose a different pitch for each type of note. Well laid out music indicates relative note lengths with horizontal space, but these notes could be equally spaced to encourage pupils to notice the difference between white and black heads more carefully. Early printed music offered no barlines and no help at all from horizontal spacing. I assume paper was so expensive that as much music as possible was crammed onto a single sheet!

"minim-crotchet in 3/4 time, Why do some pupils find this so difficult?"

I have not come across any pupils that find this any more difficuilt than other common rhythms.

But if I did I would try to figure out why THAT PARTICULAR PUPIL had a problem, because I expect that different students would struggle for diffferent reasons.