Occassionally when I'm playing the piano for long periods, I get a sudden imbalance when I stop playing. This sudden imbalance usually goes as quickly as it comes. One time though, when I was full of cold, the imbalance lasted a couple of seconds and I nearly fell down. The Doctor said that it was probably Meniere's Disease, an imbalance of the inner ear. I also get the same imbalance when looking at the computer screen for long periods, especially when I scroll the pages down.
Does anyone else suffer Menieres and if so, what are your experiences and thoughts?
I believe that part of the problem has been doing so much sight reading over the years where the eyes have to move quickly and scan around the score in a very fast and repetitive manner. Also, playing my Digital Piano when it has had a very slightly wonky base hasn't helped either. Its while playing on this and on pupil's pianos with wonky stools that I have suffered a few spells. I now put a small block of wood between my digital piano and the wall to keep it rock solid and I try not to sit on any loose stools.
My theory for this phenomenon is that when concentrating on the notes of a score, the brain is so focused on it that it doesn't notice the slight movement/vibration caused by the loose Digital piano or wonky stool, so to compensate, it minutely flickers the vision/brain to keep totally in focus with the score and to compensate for any outside movement. Unfortunately, when you suddenly stop playing, your vision/brain is still flickering/moving and suddenly gets a dizzy spell when realising that everything is still. The effect is that the room appears to move while the brain re-adjusts. In real extreme cases the brain gets caught out, cant compensate immediately and a Vertigo spell occurs. So far, I have been lucky enough to not experience a full Vertigo attack.
Am I the only person to have had these experiences or is it quite common in Piano Players/musicians?

Gae

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Does anyone else suffer Menieres and if so, what are your experiences and thoughts?

Please note, it is rare for this disease to be as bad as my experience!!

I have had very severe Menieres in the past. I say 'have had', but since I had the op. my symptoms have been greatly reduced though I am warned it could return any day.

I was unfortunate enough to have it in both ears (very unusual). I felt a fullness in my ears one day and in the morning woke up to find myself very deaf. I couldn't hear a note below middle C and the ones above it were distorted/out of tune.

My meniere's attacks were so bad, that I couldn't stand up at all with severe vomitting (sorry folks). The doctor would be called out for an injection and I would sleep for the rest of the day. I usually had about one minute warning, and since the attacks were daily, going out became increasingly difficult.

After each attack, I lost a little more hearing. I could no longer hear the doorbell, telephone, listen to music, or the radio. I could watch the television with subtitles. I tried to keep the socializing up, but it was such hard work. Surprisingly, I managed to keep up my piano teaching practice though I did explain to my students families and asked them to find another teacher....nobody left me....they continued to get good exam results...and I learnt and awful lot about using other senses!

After a couple of years of this (plus 2 small children and no outside help), I didn't feel that I could go on any more <brings on Hearts and Flowers theme>. My whole life revolves around music and communication.

During one attack, I lost conscientiousness. With my growing desire to pack it all in and my doctors getting sick and tired of daily visits to my house, they offered surgery.

Since then, I have not had one attack...though I feel a bit odd when I get out of the car after it's been moving. My hearing has improved dramatically, though I still need the subtitles on the television and I must look at people when they speak. Music is no problem to hear....making sense of the spoken word is a little more difficult, but okay. Watching films at the cinema is impossible

I do get a very full feeling in my ears if I hear a lot of noise in our school hall. A day of listening to recorders, followed by choir in the hall, leaves me with chronic tinnitus and poor hearing for the rest of the day. Otherwise the tinnitus, though constant, is bearable and I've learnt to live with it.

Oh well....you did ask Hope I haven't scared you. As I said, this severity is unusual....so was the operation. It was only the 2nd time the surgeon had performed it!

My goodness, Louise, that does sound serious!

Yes, I have had experiences of it in the past, when I've been looking up close to something (like a piece of music, or endlessley scrolling throught topics on these forums (hehe)) and it has caught me out when I've stood up too quickly. I get a sort of grey in my eyes (but that's probably because of my low blood pressure) and a dizzy feeling.

I didn't know it had a name, I just thought it was just something that happened.

Oddball

I think that's something different Oddball. I believe that's something to do with blood pressure (not necessarily anything wrong with it...quite normal I think). A Meniere's attack can come on when you're laid in bed....doing the shopping...anything really. Boy, doesn't the room spin.

Nobody is 100% sure about why Meniere's attacks, but it's believed to be excess fluid in the inner ear, as opposed to the middle ear which affects many children.

I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.

Louise, my heartfelt sympathies go out to you. I have done a lot of research on the net about Menieres and it sounds like you have the worst case scenario..severe Vertigo that can knock you totally out. So sorry to hear you suffer from this type. I have never had it that extreme. I had one room spin just over a year ago that lasted a couple of seconds but since then I've been lucky to only have moments of imbalance. My doctor prescribed me with SERC for a few weeks/months which helped me through the worst period during my attack. I also suffer from constant tinnitus like you do which is job related. Do you wear ear plugs? They have helped me so much. You can buy Musician's Ear Plugs for about £15 and they are excellent. They are designed to cut the decibel levels down by about 20 without affecting the quality of sound. It is harmful to constantly be exposed to loud music above 85-90 decibels. I bought a Digital Sound Meter from Maplin and it read some of my pupil's piano levels at 95 when playing fortissimo. As I was teaching for about 6 hours a day and also practicing at home, I was exposing myself to dangerous levels.
I now check anything which I feel is above 80 decibels and if it is, I pop in the ear plugs. I also now always practice my Digital piano at a low volume and put a mute on my violin too.
May I ask you what form the Operation took? Did it involve draining the sinuses? The reason I asked is because my sinuses are constantly bunged up and I have suffered from Sinutitus in the past. Add to this that I recently found out that my Nasal septum was severely twisted, affecting my breathing and I suppose everything adds up to causing problems of the inner ear and balance.
Please please do take care of your hearing and wear ear plugs. At least you can save your hearing as it is now and prevent any further damage.
Oh the hazards of being a music teacher!

Gae

Vretigo is really nasty. I suffer from it (fortunately mostly mildly) on and off, and if I am particularly tired or run down it can be worse. When I get ill I usually get vertigo along with it just for fun... and I also get vertigo from my fear of heights too... (it's very weird, I'm fine if I feel safe but if I don't (even if I know objectively that I am) then woah, there goes my brain off in a spin) so I don't climb anywhere high if I have a cold, because a double dose would be hugely unpleasant.

My brother went through a phase of severe vertigo in his teens, the doctor prescribed sea sickness pills (stemitil?) but he couldn't actually lift his head off the pillow to take them. Don't think he's had it since though.

I find when I am tired I feel as well as hear sounds in my ears - especially sharp sounds. Even as I type the keystrikes are not only sounding in my head but I can "feel" them (don't know how else to put it) in my ears. Which probably means it's past my bedtime... oops.

Thanks for the suggestions about ear plugs Gae. I haven't used them up to now as I have lost a lot of volume anyway and in a class situation (when noise of recorders and laughter is the biggest problem), I fear I won't be able to hear the children tell me things....like the fire alarm is going off :-)

I'll certainly look into it though.

The operation that was carried out is called Endolymphatic sac decompression. It's not performed through the sinuses...they cut through the back of the ear. I was told that it might work, or I could lose the hearing completely. It was a risk I had to take. There's more about it here if you're interested.

The operation was performed some 10 years ago. I expect things have moved on a little since.

QUOTE

Thanks for the suggestions about ear plugs Gae. I haven't used them up to now as I have lost a lot of volume anyway and in a class situation (when noise of recorders and laughter is the biggest problem), I fear I won't be able to hear the children tell me things....like the fire alarm is going off :-)

Louise, trust me, get these ear plugs to protect your ears as they are now. Otherwise you risk becoming totally deaf in years to come. You wouldn't want that now would you? They do not affect hearing at all, you still hear everything as normal but they are designed as to decrease sound as it enters your ears without muffling it. Very simple but highly effective. It will decrease only the top dangerous levels of sound e.g. if you are listening to a room full of recorders playing at 95 decibels, you should only be exposed to this for about 1 hour a day. Wearing the ear plugs will drop the level down to about 80 decibels which is safe for about 8 hours a day. Since I have been wearing them, about 2 months, my tinnitus has decreased and I feel totally comfortable listening to a pupil playing fortissimo on the piano. Up till then, my ears were irritated listening to loud pianos and actually caused physical pain in my ears, a burning sensation etc. It was getting so bad that I was really considering a career change. Luckily, these ear plugs have changed everything and I now know that my ears are protected which is psychologically reassuring also.

QUOTE

I do get a very full feeling in my ears if I hear a lot of noise in our school hall. A day of listening to recorders, followed by choir in the hall, leaves me with chronic tinnitus and poor hearing for the rest of the day. Otherwise the tinnitus, though constant, is bearable and I've learnt to live with it.

These ear plugs will prevent this happening. Why put up with it?

QUOTE

Watching films at the cinema is impossible

The sound level at Cinemas is disgusting and the managers should be warned that they are damaging people's hearing. I had to walk out of a movie once as I couldn't bear the volume. I reckon it was peaking at 100 Db. At one point in the film there was a battle of warriors using swords. Everytime two swords made contact I felt a sharp pain in my ears it was so loud. The way the films are made these days doesn't help either. The music and effects are set at a much louder level than the dialogue. This way, the sound is set to a comfortable level for the dialogue but as soon as there is a bit of action the sound is incredibly loud. And lets face it, most of the films these days are just wall to wall mindless action anyway. The result, you are exposed to dangerously high levels of sound for 2-3 hours. Get a DVD out instead. Its much safer. I won't go to the Cinema again, or at least not without my ear plugs.



One week, I tested all of the pianos that I teach on (I travel round) and found that some pianos were worse than others.

Here are my findings with the Digital sound meter

Normal Piano Playing= 65-80 Db (O.K. for 8 hours a day)
Fortissimo Piano Playing =85-100 Db (dangerous level..only 1 hour a day exposure is safe)

I have also found that larger Upright Pianos played in a sparsely furnished room with no carpet and and a high ceiling sound much more louder and reverb more than others. I have a couple of pupils who have large uprights and are in these circumstances and I always make sure that I have the plugs in.
Pianos who have very poor dampers are also a hazard as they continue to echo and ring after being played therefore exposing you to yet more unwanted sound and adding to the ringing in your ears. When I have paid my mortgage off I will probably insist on only teach on properly dampened pianos.
Some smaller upright pianos are a lot quieter and only hit about 85 Db when played Fortissimo. These days, I prefer this type of smaller upright piano when doing the rounds.
Finally, digital pianos and keyboards of course are brilliant for tinnitus sufferers as you can control the sound output to a safe, comfortable level. They may not be the ideal type to learn on but they are the ideal type tp prevent me going deaf, which is more important to me. Some of my pupils still though, insist on playing these at full blast but I usually subtely turn the volume down slowly, to a comfortable level, while they are practicing.

Gae

H.E.A.R. Are you at risk?

QUOTE (Gae @ Feb 14 2005, 11:14 AM)

my ears were irritated listening to loud pianos and actually caused physical pain in my ears, a burning sensation etc.

Hmm.....I get this sometimes too....but only really when listenening to my MP3 player, even when it's not loud....maybe I should get some too.....

It's difficult to decide, you know? Whether there really is actually any point. But, I suppose it's better to be safe that sorry!!

Oddball.
its all related to your age and amount of exposure to loud noise. Only you can judge of you are in the danger level. Do you listen to loud instruments for 6 hours a day? Do you then play an instrument loud outside work and/or listen to loud music for hours too. If so, you are at risk. Maybe not know or in a year or so, but in 20 years or so yes. The millions of sensory hairs in your ear drum cannot be replaced once they are damaged. Tinnitus is a warning sign that your external environment is too loud as your auditory system has shifted itself to compensate for this...like raising the level of a recording device and hearing the humming because of this. When you hear loud music all day, unconsciously our ears see this as the normal level of environmental sound, so to hear above it, unconsciously for predators etc, our auditory system raises its level and we hear buzzing. Thats why we hear buzzing after coming out of a Nightclub. Persistent abuse like this will eventually be detrimental to our hearing.
I am really suffering the consequences of listening and playing loud music, i.e. the piano, for several hours a day over a period of 20 odd years. Compared to Louise, I am extremely lucky, but at 39, I have had a warning and I realise now that in the environment I work, I need to protect my ears. If all that means is the inconvenience of plugging a couple of things in my ear and looking a bit daft, then I'm totally happy to do this. I dont want to be deaf in old age thank you very much.

Gae
P.S. I'm sure Beethoven must have had pretty much the experience we are having but on a grander scale. After all, how many hours of practice did he have to do to compose and master all his Sonatas and Piano Concertos etc?

Though I agree that being careful is always wise, there is no evidence that Meniere's is caused by listening to loud music...well not that I know of anyway. Now that my hearing is damaged through the Meniere's, loud noises make the tinnitus (and hearing) worse, but it was the Meniere's that came first.

I never had a desire to listen to loud music...not even in my teens

I'm pretty sure that it was just one of those things that I got that couldn't be helped.

Louise,
I didn't say that Menieres is brought on by loud music at all. Mine was brought on by several conditions all at once...I had a virul infection, (I didn't mention this) bunged up sinuses, twisted septum, concentrating on and playing music and wobbly stools/digital pianos plus being in a hot stuffy room all didn't help. Tinnitus IS brought on by exposure to too much loud music though.
I'm only advising that all musicians should take care of their hearing if they dont want to damage it further. I was refferring mainly to your admission of teaching recorders all day and then doing choir in the evening and sufferring from Tinnitus after it. I'm sure this kind of exposure falls into the dangerous level category and you would be wise to protect yourself from further damage. Maybe you feel in your particular circumstances it would be a case of closing the door after the horse has bolted? Still worth protecting what hearing you still have though.
I'll say no more on the subject but just hope it makes you and people think about their circumstances and consider protection. Its up to people to decide whether they consider my advice worthwile.

Gae

Goodness. Some very brave people around, coping with these health problems. My thoughts and prayers are with you! I had off and on nausea for a couple of years caused by a yeast infection in the digestion (helped privately at www.nutritionhelp.com as NHS couldn't help with this particular problem), so I feel for you!