I am at the moment preparing for the DipABRSM in piano performing. My music teacher thinks I should start learning a Beethoven Sonata.

These are the suggestions:
Sonata in C# minor (Moonlight) Op.27
Sonata in F minor (Appassionata) Op.57
Sonata in C (Waldstein) Op.53

I have also considered the Pathetique Sonata as a possibility as well.

I do know the Moonlight and the Pathetique sonata is set for the DipABRSM and the waldstein is set for the FRSM. I know for the Moonlight Sonata the first two movements aren't too difficult it is the third movement which is difficult which probably makes this sonata set as a diploma piece.

Which one would you recommend any suggestions?

i cant play any of them apart from a bit of the Moonlight, but anyway......which is your favourite, listen to them and see which one makes you think, yeah i really want to be able to play that!

Hi luke43, if you've never attempted a complete Beethoven Piano Sonata before (besides the ones from Op. 49 and Op. 79), it would be best to try a Sonata listed in the DipABRSM syllabus from the Op. 2, Op. 10 or Op. 14 sets. The Op. 54 and Op. 90 Sonatas - both in two movements - are also worth considering. The 'Pathetique' and 'Moonlight' Sonatas are musically and/or technically more challenging, but by all means try them out if you are keen. The 'Waldstein' and 'Appassionata' Sonatas should definitely be reserved for later when you're more accomplished :-)

Appasionata. Definitely.
Soz, that's just my opinion, but I heard it, fell in love with it and resolved to learn it as soon as I got bigger hands!!

The Sonata in F minor Op2 No 1 is a very approachable diploma piece; the Pathetique is very enjoyable to study, but more difficult. The Waldstein and Aspassionata sonatas are definitely a lot more difficult than most of the repertoire set at DipABRSM level.

I've seen all your suggestions have the nicknames: Pathetique, Waldstein, Appasionata, etc. Just because they have nicknames it doesn't mean all the others are bad!

Isn't Waldstein also allowed for LRSM? Or did I misread the syllabus?

I liked the Pathetique sonata for a while, but after listening to it too many times it became boring. My teacher never allowed me to start learn it. Just told me to start Chopin. But I really want to get recordings of Waldstein and Appasionata and Hammerklavier. They seem pretty amazing.

The Waldstein and Appasionata are good pieces that are supposed to be reserved for FRSM, because they're long and hard. The Pathetique has been a piece that is played by a lot of people, but only a few performances are good.

Hi DGA, the 'Waldstein' has been lifted off the new LRSM syllabus and is now listed in the FRSM only. Same with the 'Appassionata'. For exemplary recordings of the Sonatas you've mentioned, might I recommend any of the following: Wilhelm Kempff, Emil Gilels, Alfred Brendel, Claudio Arrau, Maurizio Pollini, Sviatoslav Richter, Stephen Kovacevich. Reasonably priced boxed sets of Beethoven's Piano Sonatas (all complete cycles except for Gilels) are available for most of these pianists with the exception of Pollini and Richter. Do seek your teacher's opinion also :-)

The Pathetique is great fun, but very tricky if you've only got small hands (ie 9th or less). The Moonlight can be fitted under smaller hands more comfortably... It's not a case of big chords in the Pathetique, but of prolonged octave stretches - can make your hands very tense.

Good luck selecting a programme!

I just wanted to reinforce DGA's comments: don't ignore the ones that don't have names, why have you selected these ones as possibilities and discarded the others? My personal favourite is number 15 (although it does have a name but not given by Beethoven though, Pastoral) it's not on any of the diploma syllabuses, perhaps it's difficulty to length ratio makes it inappropriate to fit within the time limit for the right level, I don't really know. I would recommend that you go for one of the ones on the dip syllabus, particularly since it's your first one as these will be the most approachable (remember to listen to all of them before making a decision).

I suppose it depends how accomplished you are/how much of a challenge you're looking for. The Waldstein and Appassionata are in a completely different league from Moonlight and Pathetique - don't underestimate them, especially the Waldstein - the 3rd movements of both are beasts.

Pathetique is great fun to learn, sounds impressive and isn't that hard (compared to Waldstein at least!). Moonlight sonata sounds even more impressive - the 3rd movement is probably the hardest movement out of both sonatas, but also isn't overly difficult - with slow practice, the arpeggio figures should come together pretty nicely.

But my reccomendation would be to play which ever piece you enjoy listening to most! Even if you never bring the waldstein/appasionata up to polished performance standard, you could bring yourself on a whole lot by attempting them if you approach it in the right manner.

Dave

Sure enough, the Waldstein, Appasionata, the Hammerklavier, the 3 last sonatas (op. 109-111), and quite a few others are real concert repertoire that is still considered "hard" even by really good pianists. Even the Pathetique seems like it isn't a very challenging piece compared to the Waldstein.

QUOTE (Billymay @ Feb 16 2005, 05:22 PM)

Hi DGA, the 'Waldstein' has been lifted off the new LRSM syllabus and is now listed in the FRSM only. Same with the 'Appassionata'.

Hmmm....I understand. But the funny thing is, I clicked for the 2005 diploma sylabus download but got the old one!

Pathetique Sonata
my favourite!!

Yes, I agree, don't just go for the named ones that are the most 'well known'. Apart from anything else, they are so well known that the slightest mistake that you make will stand out to anyone! I agree with anotherpianist that No15 (Pastorale) is brilliant and accessable for your level. No 18 (no name!) is also wonderful and at the right difficulty level I think for the diploma. It really is worth exploring the lesser known sonatas - you'll discover a wealth of music.

QUOTE (pianist_1210 @ Feb 25 2005, 10:58 AM)

Pathetique Sonata my favourite!!

My favourite too.. I would go for that although I like the Moonlight one, and am hoping to do that soon myself too.

Joy

Pathetique is cool cuz it sounds harder than it actually is, but by all means, if you are prepared for Waldstein or Appassionata (sp?) then try to tackle them

QUOTE (aznxboy1228 @ Mar 2 2005, 01:07 PM)

Pathetique is cool cuz it sounds harder than it actually is, but by all means, if you are prepared for Waldstein or Appassionata (sp?) then try to tackle them

Don't underestimate it...once I started a topic about it and people were saying practicing the left hand tremolo was painful...and I guess a lot of people mess it up.

just learn all of them and pick the one you like....

I'm also having difficulty choosing what to play for my diploma. I played the pathetique a year or so ago but not very technically or very well because I was young and just wanted to play it cos my brother played it. I want to do the moonlight sonata and I'm putting the third movement on my list of lifetime ambitions because I doubt I'll ever get to the right standard! What other pieces are you thinking of choosing?

The Op. 26 in Ab major is very accessible, although in four movements, its a little long.
If that's a little to long, I'd go with Op. 2 or Op. 10

Hello - I just discovered this forum a couple of days ago. I am particularly interested in the comments about pain with attempting to play Pathetique. I started working on it when I was 17, then had a long hiatus due to life, and now that I am, let us say, much older, and am playing again I am beginning to think I just can't do it. Describing my hands as "tense" underestimates the situation. After the R hand ascending octive stretches in the 1st movt, I really can't continue at the same pace until I recover for a few seconds. I am now thinking (based on comments here) that I should try Moonlight. I have always avoided it because the 1st movt is so overplayed that I haven't been interested. The 3rd movt, however, is divine. I don't want to work on something for a long time again though then realize I don't have the hands for it. Does anyone find Moonlight to cause them pain??

Welcome aboard...
Probably me who moaned about the Pathetique...
Nope, never had that kind of tension pain with the Moonlight. The 1st and 2nd movements present very few issues for small hands (I think there's one bit in the first where I just reach over with my LH to play a melody note). The 3rd is the tricky one, but in the main it's arpeggios, so as long as you've a relaxed technique shouldn't be a problem...
Good luck!

The left-hand tremolo in the Pathétique, in my experience, does need diligent work to build up speed and stamina; there's not, shall I say, a great deal of mental effort involved - just physical.

The technique I used was to find a speed where I could play the whole first section (when the Allegro starts, up to the bit with the crossed hands and ornaments over the page) and then practice the left hand of that until it was feeling the strain. Rest it for a couple of minutes, then come back. In a practice session you'll last less and less time each go; in the next practice session, though, you'll last a bit longer etc. etc. Once I could comfortably play it through without my hand being too dead by the end of the section, I increased the speed and repeated the process.

The movement is arranged to have time to catch one's breath between the tremolo sections though

The first movement of the Moonlight I think is actually very difficult to play - oh yes the notes are easy but getting the sheer control of sound, bringing out the melody and keeping every note of the accompanying broken chord figure perfectly under control is definitely NOT easy!

Finally! Someone who states what I have come to realise for a while now and (much) further emphasised following a masterclass where one girl played this movement. I had long since thought that to do the first movement of the 'Moonlight' justice requires much more than just playing the notes and following the markings. Same goes for any piece, but this esp since

1) it is so famous everyone and their dog knows it and it is hard to do what Beethoven told you to as well as inject your own personality into it.

2) It is basically four pages of tranquilty with a single line melody and moving bass, and it is s-l-o-w and it can be a difficult balance to keep the audience's full interest throughout while not resorting to taking liberties and over-dramatising the music.

After the masterclass where the girl was grilled endlessly in all three parts of the piece (the melody, the bass and the omnipresent triplets in the middle), where the balance of all three parts were explained (esp esp esp not allowing the triplets to become too dominating or accented), where she was told while the piece was slow, it had to keep moving along, I found myself thinking I probably would prefer to tackle the presto 3rd movement than to tackle this! To maintain the control of tone, colour, light and shade throughout for 4 pages can be exhausting.

As for Beethoven sonatas, for learning a first one, I would go with what others have suggested in choosing ones from the DipABRSM list. I am leanrning Op.10 No.1 at the moment. Eventually I would like to learnt the Waldstein (for the ravishing flowing rondo if nothing else) and the Appassionata too but there is no way I am going to seriously settle down to learn them until I am a lot more accomplished. Though I have, for fun at the end of a practice session, had a go at playing the 2nd movement of Appassionata. The theme and variations in that movement makes it just so introspective and beautiful.

some pieces are even harder because they're easier, sorta thing - this like many "easy" or "simple" pieces, (hah, not easy to me, nevermind...!) it's SO well known, so everyone will know if you got something wrong, and not just playing it like everyone else plays it is harder. also in a simpler piece you have to put much more musicality into it to make it sound passable... and if people have heard it a trillion times before then you are going to have to work so much harder to keep their interest and not just have them think "oh yeah, moonlight sonata, yawn"... just because hitting all the right notes in the right order is relatively simple, does not make the piece of music easy to play well.

I have learnt all 3 at some point or another, currently trying to finish the Appassionata. I absolutely love Beethoven sonatas (have played quite a few others as well), but my advice would be to pick something off the list that is easier for the exam and learn one of them for repertoires sake. My teacher made me play one for a college audition years ago and I couldn't give it justice at the time, I wish i'd picked something else now. Btw, i'm taking my LTCL this year and I wouldn't play one for my exam either!

Thanks for the advice on building stamina for Pathetique - It IS like an athletic event for forearms! Does anyone do actual focused forearm/hand exercises to enhance their playing? I'd love to know some...

I thoroughly enjoy playing No 19 - thought I discovered it myself, then heard it in the background of "The Notebook" - It's accessible and has fun, almost bouncing type hand movts in the 2nd movt. It's maybe too easy for you prodigy types, and I have no idea what 'lists' you all are talking about, but I enjoyed (and enjoy) playing it.

My main objection to 1st movt of Moonlight is that I've just heard it so many times I don't think I can live through practicing it enough to perfect it - I would never classify it 'too easy.' I think "easy" Beethoven is very deceptive. However, if I had to make a list of "Most overplayed piano pieces" 1st movt of Moonlight would definitely be in the top 10.

i really like the waldstein.
its fun toplay, an im having a good bash at it considering i dont play the piano!
my only problem is my small hands, although they dont affect my playing to much!
my main problem is my piano, which is electric and refuses to take any notice of the dynamics i try so hard to put in!

I'm working on the "Moonlight" at the moment and I've memorised the 3rd movement. I would recommend trying to memorise this to anyone who wants to play it successfully as I've never been able to play it before while still trying to read the notes and you really need to get into the core of the music to learn it properly. I like to think of it as working from the inside of the music to the outside rather than the other way around.
Surprisingly, the "Allegretto" is trickier than it sounds especially if you are attempting to memorise it. I'm hoping to memorise the whole Sonata for the Exam but I may still have the book with me open on any particular tricky passages.

Gae

Wow Gae didn't realise you'd memorised the 3rd movement. I just started it today, only on the first page and it is already tough. Still it is lovely and definitely am considering this one for my diploma instead of the Pathetique now.

Joy

A hint from my own teacher - don't play the Allegretto (Moonlight) too fast. In fact, I tend to think of it as a graceful minuet rather than as a scherzo (which is too easy to do!)

When I did my Advanced Certificate in 1998 I played Number 12 in Ab major (Op 26) [davidyko's suggestion]. It has four movements and was great fun to learn and perform. It has a wide range of emotions - even including a Funeral March.

Personally, I feel some of the relatively "unknown" ones can be better - there are plenty to choose from!

waldstein is either LRSM or FRSM i think,and definitely worth choosing

johnS makes a good point about these sonatas - if you were an examiner, would you want to spend your time listening to thousands of applicants who all love (and play!) the same tune? i'm referring here to the more popular sonatas, not to put anyone off playing them, because someone can still make a fantastic job of the moonlight sonata and put a fresh slant on it - but it's a shame that few people pick the less famous pieces, there's a definite advantage to this.

just a thought

Is anyone else playing Op 14 no 2 in G major?? I think its a gem, much less well known than the Moonlight or Pathetique (and hopefully less tiring for someone of my more advancing years!). My main problems are keeping it light and fast enough without falling over my fingers in the outer movements, and I don't quite Know what to make of the ending - it seems to just fizzle out unexpectedly...

I'm also working on:

Brahms Intermezzo in A
Chopin Berceuse
Bach P & F in F minor (book 1)

and have also dabbled in Debussy La Plus que Vente

However I've not yet summoned up the courage to book a lesson with my son's teacher and find out if there is the remotest prospect of ever getting these up to diploma standard!

Any comments on the selection so far???

Ooh, one of my favourite Bach pieces.

The trills in the prelude are simply divine, and the climax of the fugue gets me every time. If I may ask, are you doing the trill at the end of the first subject entry? If so, are you repeating it at the end of subsequent entries as you see fit? The notes at the rear of the AB edition suggest the trill at the end of the 1st and 2nd subject entries; disagreeing with them as I am inclined to do in a number of matters, I think there are several other places dying for a trill, or at least a double mordent.

I'd recommend getting hold of, and reading, Eta Harich-Schneider 'The harpsichord: An introduction to technique, style, and the historical sources'. It completely changed my approach to Bach - heck, it turned my trills in Prelude 16 upside-down . It covers at length the realisation of ornaments in Bach oneself, including how one should go about ornamenting fugues etc.. A good guideline is to repeat any subject ornamentation in each subject entry as far as is reasonably possible; hence my disagreement with the editorial notes on fugue 12, which merely suggest it at the end of the first two, the last two and perhaps one other subject entry.

Anyhow, a bit off topic; sorry I got carried away .

These two aren't too difficult and worth looking out for:
Sonata #11 in B Flat Major, Op. 22 (1800)
Sonata #17 "Tempest" in D minor, Op. 31/2 (1802)

Would that be the same Sonata No. 17 in D Minor that's on the LRSM syllabus ?.

Thanks that's useful. My old AB copy suggests trills at the end of the subject entry wherever practicable (although in the footnote they also suggest leaving out the trills altogether when playing on the piano) and I've tried to put a few in though at the moment getting the rest of the notes in is difficult enough! Unfortunately I haven't had the chance to play the Bach on a harpsichord - I would love to hear how the balance between the 4 parts changes. Currently I tend to imagine it as being a 4-part chorus from some motet with the subject being announced at each entry with some glorious Germanic phrase!

Are there others available?

The Waldstein and Appassionata are technically and musically much harder than the Moonlight and Pathetique.

Sadly, the latter two are overplayed. Examiners are supposed to mark what they hear but they are only human; they are as subject to boredom as the rest of us.

If I had to choose between M & P, I would go for the Pathetique. The Moonlight 1st movement is just too risky on an unfamiliar instrument.

Hope this helps, belatedly.

Steve

The Tempest is a great sonata - very enigmatic and strange in many ways in the first movement - I love the 'voice from the deep' section - but the second movement is gorgeous.

I think that this is exactly the problem with this piece: give it to an experienced pianist they will say it's very difficult to play well, we've heard this from two experienced pianists (Steve and Chocolatedog) in this thread alone; give it to a not-so-experienced pianist and they'll say oh, I'll play that one it's easy, or because I like it. Like the saying that Mozart is 'too easy for the beginner and too difficult for the expert'.

I'm in the play something different campaign, there are so many other good ones at around the same difficulty level I simply would not want to play one of these two: numbers 1, 5 and 6 spring to mind and from the choice on the dip syllabus I'd probably go for number 6 if I had to pick one. I suspect that far fewer people would play the two most popular ones if they'd actually taken the time to familarise themselves with how good the others are too.

I have a friend who wants to learn piano, he said he'd like to start off by aiming towards something simple "like the Moonlight Sonata" (meaning the famous movement) - after I'd picked myself up from my hysterical laughter fit, I gently pointed out to him that it is a piece that even highly seasoned players struggle to pull off. he heard it, thought "that sounds simple and nice..." - deceptive, isn't it?