There are quite a few beginner violinists here who are either teachers or already play another instrument to a high level. I'm interested to know how your previous music experience has helped/hindered your learning of the violin and what technology do you use to assist you.
The main positive element for me is that being able to read all the treble clef notes and know all the scales/intervals etc is invaluable for finding the right spacing and playing the notes reasonably accurately from the start. Having been involved with music most of my life, there is also a natural understanding towards the music already, its style and performance etc (even if I cant play it how I want yet!) The musicianship is there and doesn't need to be learnt along the way, only the technique to play it. The main advantage I find though is that I can record all the harmony excercises and piano accompaniments on my keyboard/midi equipment with ease to practice along to. Each recording I do, be it a harmonization excercise or piano accompaniment, is put on a loop and I just keep practicing over and over at leisure until I've either mastered the violin part or had enough, whichever comes first! I save everything I record to a folder on my Computer for later use and to keep as a record.
How does everyone else practice?

Gae

Hi Gae

I definitely am glad that I started with the piano first, as I think that a lot of the squeaky ness of first violin playing does not appear as much as if I was a complete beginner. We know roughly what notes are where and can use our ears to guide us and practice the notes until they are pretty much there.

I still havent tried the viola properly yet, however I think my strings should have settled now so I might sit down and have a go later on for the first time. However I am not happy with my team strings book as it does not outline the fingering positions etc like the Tune a Day one for the violin.

Any reccommendations sill be appreciated!

Joy

Hi.. me again...

I've just found A Tune A Day for viola, does anyone know if it is any good in laying out the finger positions etc and some simple exercises?

A Tune A Day

Thanks

Joy,
the Violin Tune a Day book is very good so I'd imagine that the Viola one will be very similar. They both only have 32 pages though but I'm sure it will keep you busy for a few weeks. I like the layout of these books more than ABRACADABRA and the ETA Method. There are lots of 2 part harmonies in them for pupil/teacher and also some nice ensemble pieces along the way. I record these on my computer/keyboard sequencer and then play along to each seperate part. Well worth £5:95 in my opinion.
Joy, I noticed at the MusicRoom that this particular book is on a 2-4 weeks order. Do you really want to wait that long? I buy all my music from Music Exchange in Manchester as it nearest to me. I ordered "A Tune A Day Book2 for Violin" online on Monday afternoon and it was in my mailbox on Wednesday in a sturdy envelope, free delivery. Worth considering? I have found the item for you as the search engine is a bit temperamental. Its currently in stock too.
A Tune a Day Book 1 for Viola

Gae

Hi Gae

Yeah I might order it from there. I was just looking for now.. Just had a go at my viola and I'm really annoyed with it It really doesnt seem to be going right. The low c string.. if I tune it any lower thatn about an e it goes too lose and then cant be played if that makes sense. I'm sure that I'm doing something wrong.

joy

Are you tuning the C to the right octave? C below middle C isn't it? That's the only reason I can think that it would be too loose to play. Otherwise maybe it's got a dodgy peg that won't grip properly? Could they have sent you the wrong string i.e. for a cello? A cello also has a C string but an octave lower than viola. Just guessing.

Gae

Hi Joy and Gae,

I've only used Eta Cohen for violin but also Abracadabra for cello which is v good.

Sounds like I could do with getting A Tune a day for violin though.

I always start my violin practise the same as piano practise.

Firstly scales - usually a few a day, then arppeg's then workbook/pieces.

Gae - It's a brilliant idea recording yourself. I do record myself playing piano but a poor quality tape recorder doesn't help too much !

I have yet to record myself on violin

Fiona

QUOTE (Gae @ Feb 17 2005, 12:29 PM)

Are you tuning the C to the right octave? C below middle C isn't it?

I swear I am tuning it to the right note. Do you know of any viola recordings online I can listen to? I'm so confused

I had a good go on the violin just a minute ago and have almost mastered a grade 3 piece that's been bugging me for a while. (Down By the Riverside) It's great.. I might send you a recording if you want one?


Joy

PS I hope the hand thing sorts itself out

QUOTE

I had a good go on the violin just a minute ago and have almost mastered a grade 3 piece that's been bugging me for a while. (Down By the Riverside) It's great.. I might send you a recording if you want one?

Yes please!

I wonder if its the traditional Down by the Riverside which I think was originally a Welsh Folk Song, just like Suo Gan (The Celtic Song in Grade 1)
I mention this because Wales is my birthplace.

Gae

I started violin with no previous musical education at all, and it must be great to be able to read music already and understand all the key signatures etc first. I'm sure this held me back at the start.

I am now working towards Grade 5, but I have tried to stick to this regime more or less for all the Grades. If your practice is focused you can achieve more in the time available.

I practise first of all by playing some long bows for about 5 mins. Just random notes really and some open strings, and I am now trying to do some vibrato on these ( I need it for Grade 5!) as I get my bow arm warmed up.

Then I do scales etc. I pick one key a day and do major and minor, arps etc. (Its a relief to have a "G" day and a trial when it is an "F#" day ). I'm doing all the scales now not just the ones for the grade, some 3 octave, some 2 octave.

Then I do some Sevcik studies and Kreutzer no 2 (which is the only one I can do so far!!). On earlier grades I was doing the Kinsey studies rather than Kreutzer. With Sevcik though you can pick out a particular bowing that is giving you trouble in one of your pieces and work on that in the study.

Then I reward myself for all that with some chocolate

Then I do my pieces. I may just concentrate on one piece, or one small part of one piece that is challenging.

Then I might just take some music I have and try and play it. This could be anything from Bach to Birtwhistle ( I have loads of stuff I can't play....yet!), but I take it very slowly....... and I call it sight reading. I might just do a few bars from out the middle of something that looks like it is within my capabilities.

If I don't have time for all of this I do the warm up, scales and Sevcik.


Happy Practising

Jane

Jane,
I have the Sevcik and Kreutzer studies on a CD-Rom but they are a bit beyond me at the moment to be honest. I think I'll stick with the Tune a Day and Grade 1-2 pieces for now!

Gae

QUOTE (Gae @ Feb 17 2005, 01:03 PM)

I wonder if its the traditional Down by the Riverside

Yes Gae it is is piece.. but a slightly differnt version and its slower!

I'll send you one soon.. it's fun playing it!

However.. how shall I send it as we had all that trouble before with my mac? lol

Joy

I started violin recently. I found the bowing action hard to get the hang of - the physical requirements are quite different to the clarinet and piano! Also my other instruments don't reqire any musical ear at all, so I haven't considered tuning to the same extent before. I ahven't recorded myself on the grounds that I know I sound horrible without listening to it twice!

I wasn't too keen on Tune a Day (I have a 1960's edition) - I much prefer Eta Cohen, and maybe a little Abracadabra on the side.

Happy practicing Gae - Wales is my birthplace too!

Catrin, welcome to the our little club for beginner Violinists!!
The main reason I preferred the Tune a Day Book is because there were lots of duets, trios and ensembles in it and I enjoy playing the violin with the piano and other voices. I wanted to be able to record other parts to play along to so this book was better for me. Also, I used to play the Tune a Day Books when I was a kid so it was a bit of a nostalgia trip too.

Gae

I find it fascinating how different instruments require different methods of thought- I think what I am aiming for with the viola is to read the music so I can hear it in my mind (as though sightsinging) and then play the viola by ear if that makes any sense. Haven't quite got there yet- playing pieces I already know gives me much better intonation.

One interesting thing I have noticed is how much my intonation relies on tone quality. If I am making a nasty noise I don't like the results whatever the intonation and find it really hard to get in tune (basically I tune by asking myself if I like that noise and would I prefer it at a slightly different pitch- if the tone quality is horrid I would just refer it to stop). When I am getting a nice tone quality intonation suddenly becomes easy.

Books- I started with a couple of nice old fashioned methods from our local library, they also had Tune A Day, but I wanted something that moved faster, and am now playing from Time Pieces, volume two of some collection of classical pieces and all the random books of song tunes I have lying around which I either read in treble clef as written or if the key signature works better pretend are written in alto clef and so in effect transpose by a seventh (which doesn't bother me at all, my mind just works that way).

Erard, you've raised a very interesting important point there. I suppose we all practice and learn in a way suited to our own particular preferences, interests, even economic situations. For me, coming from an Art background as I do, I am more interested in the colour of sounds, especially when combining more than one instrument. I am fascinated by and love how a violin and piano work together, the timbres they create and how they compliment each other. The piano accompaniment being harmonic, rhythmic and textural, while the violin sings with its bright sound as if floating high above the undulating ripples of sound created by the piano. Occassionaly, they meet and almost fuse together only to seperate once more. The piano is perfect for both a rhythmic and punchy accompaniment to support the flowing line of the violin but it is also ideal for the lush and warm sound that is ideal to bring out the singing quality of the violin. I love the piano as a solo instrument more than I do the violin, but together, they take on a new dimension. I suppose the same could be said of the Clarinet or Flute etc with the piano but I have never had the urge to learn either of these. Maybe, I just dont have enough puff!!
Regarding economics, its a great idea to go to the Library. I might pop in and have a look what they've got on offer. The only problem with that for me is that I do like to own all my music as I never know when I might just want to pick it up to play again in the future.

Gae

Well, I've eased back a bit with the practice time, only about 1/2-1 hour a day as opposed to 4-5 hours over half term and my hand doesn't hurt as much which is a good sign. I can happily play for 20 minutes, even on the G string, without noticing much.
Today, I am going to treat myself to the Grade 3 Violin book for future perusal. I am half way through "A Tune a Day Book 2" and getting more comfortable playing in the keys of F, C and now Bb majors as well as doing the scales. In the Grade 2 ABRSM Exam book I have been playing through La Morisque, Simple Gifts, Russischer March and Moon Sprites and probably will try all of them eventually. I'm also keeping my Sight reading up with the Grade 2 excercises. Getting the Grade 3 pieces, as well as being a treat, will give me the incentive to continue moving forward.
I may not have the technique yet, but the more I play, the better my technique and confidence gets. I probably won't master the technique for playing the violin for years to come, but that certainly isn't going to stop me advancing and progressing through the levels waiting for my technique to get perfect. As a piano teacher, I see on a day to day basis that most of my pupils dont start mastering their technique until the higher Grades, maybe 5-8. They usually get through the first few Grades in a rather shaky manner, so it makes sense, that the same is true of the violin and other insruments.
As I play in more trickier Keys, I find playing in Keys like A and D so much easier. This is how we learn dont we? As we try to attain more difficult goals, previous things that we have tried, in relation, become so much more easy.
Eventually, I hope to be struggling on Grade 5 pieces, but comfortably playing Grade 3 and/or 4.

Gae

Hi Gae

I totally agree with you about the technique thing. I know I have lots to master yet but it will take time and it will be worth it in the long run to be able to play with confident and competently.

You are going to get the Grade 3 book.. you'll see Down by the Riverside.. you must let me know what you think of it when you play it! Good luck with the violin playing!

Joy

QUOTE (Gae @ Feb 24 2005, 10:26 AM)

As I play in more trickier Keys, I find playing in Keys like A and D so much easier.

Violinists always prefer the sharps. Something about the resonance of the open strings in those keys I think.

Probably why lots of violin concertos are in D.

Jane

QUOTE

Violinists always prefer the sharps

..and partly because they are easier to play in as well......violinists hate flat keys

Debussy was one of those composers who liked using all the black keys on the piano, so when he wrote works like La Mer, he stuck D flat major all over the place.

Mind you, the cellists don't get it easy either. They prefer flat keys. I believe one of the most difficult scales to play on the cello is E major, because it involves a change of position (both up and down) every time the player crosses strings.

QUOTE

Violinists always prefer the sharps

...and flatted keys are more comfortable to play on the piano because when sitting at the piano the direction of the hands and arms naturally lend themselves to a downward angle making it better for playing flatted keys. To play in sharpened keys you are playing against the natural direction of the hands and this makes them slightly more awkward to play.

Gae

QUOTE

The main advantage I find though is that I can record all the harmony excercises and piano accompaniments on my keyboard/midi equipment with ease to practice along to. Each recording I do, be it a harmonization excercise or piano accompaniment, is put on a loop and I just keep practicing over and over at leisure until I've either mastered the violin part or had enough, whichever comes first!  I save everything I record to a folder on my Computer for later use and to keep as a record.

Amazing. I'm not very au fe with all this stuff - what kind of keyboard do you use? And how do you get it onto the computer? Do you just put a line in from the back of the keyboard and into the computer? What programme does it come up in?

Also, do you know how to put a minidisc recording onto CD?

Thanks!

Violinia

Hi Violinia,
I have two setups, one for my Digital Piano and one for my Technics 2000 keyboard. I will try and explain each one as simply as possible:-

Setup One

My Main computer is connected, via a midi interface cable to a Technics KN 2000 keyboard. With this setup, basically, whatever I play on the keyboard, the data is recorded on the computer via the Cakewalk(Sonar) Midi software that I use and will play back exactly what I've performed. I always play live, as I want it to sound as naturalistic as possible and I usually use
the internal midi metronome so the music comes up accurately on the staff. Ocassionally, I put some notes in manually with the mouse and change some of the tempos, dynamics, corrections etc where needed. The only drawback with playing to the metronome of course is that you have to keep it in strict time and cannot do the rallentandos. I add these in later using the tempo graph on the software. Its very easy. You just draw a line down or up, or curved to create the tempo how you want it.
Everything I play and record I can then save to a folder. Midi files are very small and you can save 100s/1000s with just a few Megabytes (if that) of space. Obviously, you can then save them to disc.

My second, older Pentium II computer is connected in the same way to my Kurzweil Digital Piano. Basically, I only use this when I want to play true piano pieces and not just simple excercises that can be done on a keyboard. Also, the beauty of midi is that it will play any external device connected to the computer. So I can take the midi pieces/accompaniments that I did on my keyboard piano and have the same software on the other computer play the Digital Piano, just like a Pianola. If I want to perform some violin pieces to friends or family, I usually have the accompaniment playing through the Digital Piano as it sounds much nicer.

Quite often, I get called "Gadget Man" by people I know. Although on the surface, it does appear like that, I'm only interested in technology that advances and assists my interest and enjoyment of playing and sometimes creating music. In that respect I use it for artistic reasons..it is a means to an end.

Gae

I have a clavinova which plays midi files from a floppy disk. I find I can write my violin grade pieces into sibelius software, and then save as a midi file, and then I can either play the piano accompaniment for my pieces while I play along (any tempo which is great for slow slow practise) or play just the violin part to check my intonation. Or indeed both together. Of course all this copying is purely for academic and practice purposes!!!

However of course the clavinova refuses to follow me in any rit or rubato.....it never learns!

I have even done the baroque pieces with harpsichord voice on the clavinova for a nice "baroque-y" feel.

Jane

QUOTE (Gae @ Feb 24 2005, 11:00 PM)

QUOTE Violinists always prefer the sharps ...and flatted keys are more comfortable to play on the piano because when sitting at the piano the direction of the hands and arms naturally lend themselves to a downward angle making it better for playing flatted keys. To play in sharpened keys you are playing against the natural direction of the hands and this makes them slightly more awkward to play. Gae

Hmm that's interesting. I play piano and prefer playing in sharp keys - I wonder if that;s because I started with the clarinet where pieces in flat keys are quite rare because the accompanist has to have hundreds more.

I haven't got past D major on the violin yet!

Catrin,
Technically, I have no problem playing in sharpened keys, but you do slightly have to go against the natural angle of the body, arms and fingers to play them dont you?. In that sense, from a point of view of posture, they are more awkward to play. Whether or not you prefer to play in sharpened keys is a purely personal musical choice. I do admit, that even on the piano, sharpened keys like A major have a bright, bell-like quality to them.

Gae

Only problem with playing along with midi files when learning the violin is that the violin is not always played as a strictly equal-tempered instrument. I guess when you are starting out that's not too much of a consideration, but bear in mind that intonation on the violin is infinitely more flexible than on the piano.

QUOTE

Only problem with playing along with midi files when learning the violin is that the violin is not always played as a strictly equal-tempered instrument. I guess when you are starting out that's not too much of a consideration, but bear in mind that intonation on the violin is infinitely more flexible than on the piano

hmmm?

I recently performed and did some recordings with an excellent Violinist. I was playing his Digital piano and he was playing his violin along with it. There was no mention by him of any problem with pitch and if I can get get to sound half as good as he did I'll be a happy bunny.

Gae

QUOTE (sarah-flute @ Feb 26 2005, 11:13 AM)

Only problem with playing along with midi files when learning the violin is that the violin is not always played as a strictly equal-tempered instrument.

Yes its true. But when you are playing accompanied with a piano (as in most exam pieces) then you need to play in equal temperament.

Now string quartets are quite a different matter!!

Jane

joyjoy, just thought I'd let you know, viola and violin Tune A Day are identical, except for the fact that the viola one is written for the viola, and violin for the violin!!

One of the best tips for beginner violinists is this:

Keep your right thumb bent and your knuckles on that hand facing your left. This is the only way to have a relaxed wrist. Also, keep your little finger curved, with the curve leaning towards the finger next to it.

The most important thing in violin playing is the bowing. Get that right, play in tune, and away you will go.

Oh and another thing - don't put your chin on the chin-rest! This will get you grimly looking down the neck - which is what you don't want - you want your gaze to go to the right of the violin, not at it.

Have fun!

Violinia

QUOTE (isabelsmells @ Feb 28 2005, 08:53 PM)

joyjoy, just thought I'd let you know, viola and violin Tune A Day are identical, except for the fact that the viola one is written for the viola, and violin for the violin!!

Oh .. Thanks for letting me know.. I didn't realise... Perhaps I should not get the book after all then.. I'll keep looking around for others.

Joy

QUOTE (Gae @ Feb 25 2005, 10:45 AM)

With this setup, basically, whatever I play on the keyboard, the data is recorded on the computer via the Cakewalk(Sonar) Midi software that I use and will play back exactly what I've performed.

Hi Gae, I notice you use sonar. Do you like it? I have a copy of Cubase vst32 and it's driving me nuts - i really find it hard to use. I used to have Cakewalk back in the good old days of windows 95, and I really liked that but when i upgraded to a new machine i decided to try and record live sounds as well as midi. Would you say Sonar was more like Cakewalk to use than Cubase?

Cheers
Phil

Phil,
After Cakewalk there was Cakewalk Pro Audio which as the name suggests did a lot more with audio recording as well as midi. I am very happy with Sonar. I use it for both midi and recording live. I also use Sound Forge which I prefer when I just want to make a single recording as I have got used to it and all its functions. I hate having to re-learn new software especially if it just does exactly the same thing as your present one. It just takes so much time to get to know again. Time that could be used in practing/playing and recording new stuff! Sonar was slightly different in layout compared to Cakewalk but didn't take too long to get used to.

Gae

Thanks Gae, that's been very helpful. I think I'll get a copy

Cheers
Phil

Phil, check this picture out and see how it compares to Cakewalk.
Sonar Layout

Gae

Thanks for the violin tips violinia, they were a great help!

What I do wonder is; how many of you play without looking at the strings and how many of you HAVE to look at the strings to be able to play? I'm afraid I fit into the latter category. Sigh..

I can't look at the strings....I have to look at the music, can't play without it

Jane

What happens is this, I play a new piece by looking at only the music, then when I get familiar with it, I start looking at the strings, because somehow I find it not too difficult memorising the notes..

Unfortunately with the piano, I have more difficulty memorising a piece. LoL! I can't play without looking at the music unless it's an easy piece.

Is it a bad thing to look at the strings? Maybe if I didn't need to look at the music I would be able to play better in tune if I looked at the strings. Do you need to worry about it?

A lot of professional players seem to look at the strings when they play.

Maybe it is a good thing to be able to do.

What does anyone else think?

Jane

I don't know. For now, it's great, but my teacher keeps saying play by feel, you don't HAVE to look at the strings. I hope it will not be like my piano-playing in future, where I'm glued to the music and I can't remember how to play if I look at the keys. As the pieces get harder, that is.

Of course piano teachers keep telling their students that it'll be great for their confidence and develop memory if you memorise the music, but as the pieces get harder, the students can't tear themselves away from the music book.

I'm definitely not a violinist, sorry, but I heard that it's easy for the bow to go UNparallel to the bridge when bowing with the HEAD of the bow. So, students are told to LOOK at the bow in motion in order to keep it parallel to the bridge all the way! I don't know why professionals do it espy Heifetz who look at his bow and completely ignore the conductor!!! However, Ginette Neveu did not need to look at her bow in motion on the strings. She plays with supreme confidence, looking at the handsome conductor.

Maybe they are shy or nervous and simply want something less scary than the audience or the conductor to FOCUS on while they relax and think about/enjoy the beautiful music that's going on in their heads!

Hahaha!! Good theory Tess! I WILL look at the examiner then, if it's a he, and he's handsome. Then maybe I'll forget about being nervous and making all those funny noises during the awful C major arpeggio in 2nd position, slurred.
Funny how C is the easiest key for piano, but D is the easiest for violin.

How does everyone else practice?

Gae

[/quote]

Our daughter's practice schedule consists of elements suggested by her (very good) teacher:
1. Long bows just for warm up
2. Shifting exercise
3. Vibrato exercise
4. Scales and Arpeggios (concentrating on the hard ones)
5. Take a short break (usually reading some jokebook/Beano or an ice lolly)
6. Try out new pieces
7. Recital of an old piece or any new one she likes to little brother but he won't give her her busking fee!

We believe she won't be doing any technical exercises till next month/term. How one practises most probably depends very much on the teacher's advice.

Tess

Simply put, the violin is NOT an equal-tempered instrument. Yes, when playing with the piano (which is) the tuning is adjusted to play with a piano, but "in tune" in other situations may not always mean the same as "in tune with what a piano would play". Good violinists can and do adjust their intonation as appropriate for the key they are playing in and who/what they are playing with. I make no claims to be able to do this, (though having played the violin for almost 20 years I probably do it to a certain extent purely by luck and experience rather than judgement!) and I'm not suggesting that you should WORRY about it - just be aware of it. Any instrument that can bend the pitch of a note to any extent can make use of a slightly "oversharpened" 7th for instance or whatever to make their playing sound more "right" even when it's not in tune with equal temperament, and I believe (though you would have to ask the experts, and I ain't one) that you can to an extent do that when playing with a piano, depending on the key and stuff. Like I said, I'm no expert!!! If you have ever tuned your harp by ear and then tried to play in a different key you may have found out that the ear doesn't necessarily "hear" in equal temperament, though it may be different for an "in the bone" pianist.