Hi,

My 4-year-old son is fascinated by french horns and would very much like to study this instrument. I am a pianist and a complete ignorant of brass. Does anyone know at what age it is recommended to start playing brass instruments, if there is any? I realize it is a question of size, so would it be advisable to start with recorders, for example? Finally, are there any mini versions of french horns that younger players can start with? (I know there is something called single horn). Thanks!

It's rare for someone to take up a brass instrument before they're about 8 or 9. Generally it's OK to start playing when the player has top and bottom second teeth.

I didn't start playing French horn till I was 16 though!

There are indeed mini French horns, my music centre has just bought a load of them. These are different to single horns though: a single horn is the same size as a double horn, but it is much lighter (the double horn has more tubing).

Hope this helps.

Cheeble, thanks for your quick and instructive advice! A.

The world does need more French Horn players! I am glad that he's taken a great interest to the horn.

If he does choose to take it up, the best of luck to him!!


Andy

While your son is waiting for his second teeth, my recommendation is that he should learn to sight sing* i.e. be able to look at a line of music and sing the correct pitches. For most people, this is done by recognising both the appearance and the sound of all the intervals and hearing the sound of a known note to get their bearings. Some people have absolute pitch, which means associating every written note with the right pitch, just from memory. For most purposes, the second is highly desirable, and most musicians who don't have the ability envy those who do, but because the horn is a transposing instrument (i.e. usually when we see a C, the note we play sounds F) the advantages of absolute pitch are not so clear-cut.

* Directors of cathedral choirs teach this to their choirboys. If you know one, ask him how.

The point about learning to sing as a preparation is that the horn has a wide range and many notes available with one fingering, so one chooses among them with the lip, and for most people the sequence is notation -> sound -> played note: the embouchure is controlled by the inner ear. I subscribe to a horn mailing list, with which I raised just this matter a week or so ago. Only one of the members thought it was possible to play the horn reliably without an accurate inner ear for intervals or absolute pitches, and several others disagreed with him strongly, considering it essential.

Even if he doesn't go on to play the horn, the ability to hear internally what he sees in notation is an essential capability in many musical situations, often for a performer, but a fortiori for a conductor, coach or teacher.

i started on an Eb horn (tenor horn) when i was about 7 then got moved onto french horn about 2 years later. i would diffenety (sp) recomend it. Eb horn is much easier to play (although not as nicer tone) but he will be able to at least know how to 'blow' it and read music. the only problem is the fingering, there different to each other. French horn: C=open D=1st valve E=open Eb: C=open D=1nd and 3rd valve E=1st and second.

Oh and there is such thing as a single horn. with a double horn (which i think is most common, correct me if im wrong) you can play in the key of F and in Bb. a single horn can only play in 1 key it is also smaller and lighter and many have adjustable hand size thingy (cant remember what there called).

sorry need smilies!

ps if he does go for it at any time (i dont know what would be the best age to start) it would be great as... WE NEED MORE HORN PLAYERS!!!! WE'RE IN SHORT SUPPLY!

My horn teacher taught both her sons to play brass from a very young age, she used to leave old mouthpieces out and show them how to buzz properly so that they had good embouche from a young age.

you can get lighter single F horns, although I don't think they are suitable for anyone below the age of about 7/8.

Pip Eastop (a fanastic london freelance horn player) taught his son from the age of 4 to play tenor horn. He's kept a dairy on the subject, and you can look at it on his website http://www.pyp.f2s.com/

hopes this helps

hornplayer xx

i am a trumpet player and would love to learn french horn, except i know very little about it, what would you recomend to learn on?

thanx

QUOTE (miniminime @ Mar 25 2005, 11:53 PM)

i am a trumpet player and would love to learn french horn, except i know very little about it, what would you recomend to learn on? thanx

This was discussed on one of the horn mailing lists recently. The majority view was that it was an undesirable doubling. How dedicated are you to the trumpet? Your progress on horn would be slow if you continued on trumpet. Best strategy, if you really want to do this, is to play nothing but horn for two or three years and return to trumpet when your new embouchure (and it has to be a bit different) is solidly established.

What sort of music do you play? If you want to keep an instrument that you can play in a brass band, (which is the only regular ensemble I can think of that has brass without orchestral horns) a possible doubling would be horn and flugel horn. You would probably be able to match the mouthpiece rims, and you could play flugel with a close approximation to a good horn embouchure.

The usual recommendation for someone fully grown is to learn horn on a full double F/Bb. If that is too heavy, a compensating double F/Bb is a good substitute. Someone with a good sound (with enough richness in the middle and lower registers) can reproduce it on a single Bb or a Bb/F alto, but these would be unsuitable instruments for an ex-trumpet player, as they would allow him to persist with the more strident trumpet sound. A single F is good for tone quality, but a beginner would find it treacherous in the upper register, and it would delay his acceptance into an ensemble.

Sometimes, it seems that trumpet players that cross over to play the horn can play higher notes. I personally find the trumpet harder to play than a horn. Not a good player on either instruments though. HAha.

QUOTE (kishgia @ Apr 19 2005, 12:48 PM)

Sometimes, it seems that trumpet players that cross over to play the horn can play higher notes. I personally find the trumpet harder to play than a horn. Not a good player on either instruments though. HAha.

Yes. I went from Eb soprano cornet to horn and kept a low embouchure. This gave me a good top register and no tone in the bottom octave. I began to correct that 10 years ago (i.e. 40 years later), but still reckon to be better as Horn 1 or 3 than as 2 or 4.

I started on the cornet when I was four and went through a number of other brass and woodwind instruments before I started on french horn at the age of 21!

I think it is possible for your son to start playing brass at 4 if he's keen. The french horn might be a bit heavy though.

Contrary to what has just been said, I think 4 is probably too young to start a brass instrument. I would say he should be at least 7 before starting and probably 9 before starting the French horn. I wasn't allowed to start the French horn till I was nearly 12, but I played the tenor (E flat) horn before that. Teaching your son to sight sing is a really good idea, and learning the recorder is good because he'll learn the basics of breath control and how to read music.

lol kishgia- how can you say the horn is easier than the trumpet?! That's crazy!

QUOTE (hgirl @ Apr 23 2005, 05:11 PM)

Contrary to what has just been said, I think 4 is probably too young to start a brass instrument. I would say he should be at least 7 before starting and probably 9 before starting the French horn.

I agree that 4 is too young. Some teachers make properly established second front teeth their criterion. If you allow a young child to play on front milk teeth the fear is that their location, and those of the second set too, will be upset. I'm not a dentist, but it sounds plausible to me.

QUOTE

lol kishgia- how can you say the horn is easier than the trumpet?! That's crazy!

It's certainly not the usual view.

Lol..

Well.. As I said I am not a good player in both instruments.

I did not have any basic training since young. And I started with the horn at age 13. After four years of playing, I tried to play the trumpet and I realised that I cant even make one scale out of it, while my counterparts who tried my instrument reached top notes like nobody's business..

Puzzled...

My teeth are fine for anyone who is worried!

I don't think I played while I lost my two front teeth though. It's a long time ago, I can't really remember it bothering me at the time.

if he's intetested i would teach him as much as you can find out about brass instruments - particualy horn
so he know the fundamentals of getting a good sound for when he's old enough, - 6+ is often a good age - when children are used to learning after a year or so in school
good things to teach him would be-
buzzing
tounging
fingering
how to hold the horn (if he can reach)

as i said you can get a singal horn, a smaller virsion of a double horn. you can only play in the key of F but its lighter and smaller.

sorry i cant spell today.

It won't work unless you are willing to destroy your tone on trumpet. THe standard on trumpet is 2/3 lower lip and 1/3 upper lip for the mouthpiece. The horn is the exact opposite. It would sort of be like a sprinter taking up marathon running as a hobby. I started on trumpet in the 4th grade and switched to horn in the 6th. For the first year my tone on the horn was terrible. By the time I was in high school I developed a very good tone on the horn. I wanted to take up a second instrument and all my horn teachers told me flute was the only one I could take up and not destroy my horn embochure.

My feeling is that all kids should start on double horn if not triple horn these days. The double horn does have more weight but if a child starts on a single horn in F he or she will learn the fingerings for the single horn. Once the child switches later to a double or triple horn it will be almost like having to learn all over again.

Tell me about it! Been there, done that, it sucks!