When I browse this board, discussions usually seem to be about the "huge jump" between Grade 8 and DipABRSM. What I'm wondering is how large the "jump" is between Dip, LRSM, and FRSM. Does the gap get larger or smaller?

Hi aznxboy1228
As far as the teaching diplomas go the jumps are clearly laid out. For the Dip you need to perform from the grade 6 syllabus and talk about teaching issues up to this level. For the LRSM you have to prepare 3 pieces from the grade 8 syllabus and discuss issues up to this level. For the FRSM you have to play a complete diploma piece and discuss issues up to diploma level. At the varying levels there are also case studies, videos and written submissions to complete. With the FRSM the written submission is 12,000 words.
Hope that helps.

Good question. It actually seems that there aren't many people around here, particularly in performing that have done all three yet: to prepare for all three from scratch in the five years since the syllabus came out would be quite a feat! It seems that many people who have done LRSM so far have done so using the old advanced certificate as a substitute for dipABRSM (and they seem to have observed quite a big gap between those two); and I'm presuming the people who have done FRSM have used music college modules as substitutes for the LRSM: meaning they'd already passed the LRSM standard but didn't actually take it.

I do have one point (although I stress that this is merely speculation based on reading the mark schemes) that the description for the playing in one category of pass in dipABRSM is the specification for one category lower in LRSM i.e. distinction in dip is high pass in LRSM, high pass in dip is clear pass in LRSM, pass in dip is fail in LRSM etc. Whilst it's hard to specify precisely the standard in words I'd guess the same specification in words must mean the same standard. So I would guess that clear pass playing in dipABRSM would get a pass at LRSM (obviously though one has to play technically harder pieces). The 'Achieving Success' DVD may help you in answering your question, I don't know, but there have been a few comments recently about whether or not it demonstrates the standards well.

I'd guess, and again this is only a guess I have no experience of it, that the gap between dipABRSM and LRSM is smaller than that between grade 8 and dipABRSM simply because the dipABRSM and the LRSM are marked on the same scale both with proffessional standards in mind whereas grade 8 isn't marked on the same sort of criteria and it appears from people's experiences here that it isn't really in the same league so to speak.

Hi aznxboy1228,

I took my DipABRSM, LRSM and FRSM in 2001, 2002 and 2003 respectively. The "jumps" between the diplomas are indeed big. The DipABRSM pieces are in general at the same level as the Grade 8 pieces, while pieces from the LRSM and the FRSM lists are progressively harder.

From Grade 8 to DipABRSM, one is expected to play a much longer programme as well as to perform at a much higher level. A distinction performance in Grade 8 will not necessarily translate into a pass in DipABRSM. The leap from DipABRSM to LRSM is big, and that from LRSM to FRSM is even bigger, particularly regarding the written submission and the viva voce. One has to be on top of every aspect of his/her instrument and music in general to be granted an FRSM.

Hi Wai Kit,
Congratulations on a very fine achievement. Yes, it is noteworthy that there have been quite a number of accomplished non-professional musicians like yourself who cruise through the diplomas, often in less popular instruments such as the bassoon.

QUOTE (Wai Kit Leung @ Mar 19 2005, 01:47 AM)

Hi aznxboy1228, I took my DipABRSM, LRSM and FRSM in 2001, 2002 and 2003 respectively.  The "jumps" between the diplomas are indeed big.  The DipABRSM pieces are in general at the same level as the Grade 8 pieces, while pieces from the LRSM and the FRSM lists are progressively harder.   From Grade 8 to DipABRSM, one is expected to play a much longer programme as well as to perform at a much higher level.  A distinction performance in Grade 8 will not necessarily translate into a pass in DipABRSM.  The leap from DipABRSM to LRSM is big, and that from LRSM to FRSM is even bigger, particularly regarding the written submission and the viva voce.  One has to be on top of every aspect of his/her instrument and music in general to be granted an FRSM.

Dear Wai Kit,

many congrat to the success in ur FRSM in 03!!! it makes me feel really envious!! u inspired me to take FRSM piano performing next year!

btw, are u from Canada? i saw ur name in the 'successful diploma candidates' list in the Annual Review (2003) n knew that u were the only FRSM holder in ur country.

which inst did u play for FRSM? bassoon?

there were only 8 FRSM holders worldwide in 2003 and u were 1 of them! that sounds vv precious!

btw, may i ask u how u could manage to write ur 5000-word written submission? id u have help w/ it? did u have a teacher for it?

btw, i have difficulties with the written submission part for FRSM. although i know a few professors in HK who give private tuitions on this part, they charge vvv high fees (HK$1200-1700/hour). i expect that sb like me will need abt 10 private lessons! i can't afford that! (but it's much safer to find a teacher coz i dunno whether i've made any mistakes.)

btw, do u mind if u tell me ur approx. age?

i'm really stuck at the mo!

thx soooo much 4 ur help! i look fwd to hearing from u soon!

Duen Duen (Hong Kong)

To Duen Duen,

How many trials do you allow yourself for the FRSM performing?

Besides, all the FRSMs I know write their own written submission. If you take lessons I reckon your FRSM would cost at least 20000 HKD

Dear Ericpark,

Thanks for your message. I was wondering if we knew each other? It's interesting that you knew I played the bassoon, and that I was an amateur, even though I didn't take my diploma exams on that instrument.

By the way, Floutist, do you know of many people (in Hong Kong I suppose?) taking the FRSM? I would be interested in knowing.

Wai Kit

I know 2 people who has FRSM in piano performing, one is a medicine major and the other a young man of about 20. The medicine major got a distinction and I think probably the other did too.

QUOTE (Floutist @ Mar 23 2005, 12:39 AM)

To Duen Duen, How many trials do you allow yourself for the FRSM performing? Besides, all the FRSMs I know write their own written submission. If you take lessons I reckon your FRSM would cost at least 20000 HKD

To Floutist,

i shall only apply for my FRSM exam until i'm 100% ready and well-prepared this time! i decide NOT to apply for it this year coz i'm not ready yet n i don't wanna waste $. also, i still haven't finalized my program yet. Morevoer, i have to teach everyday, i don't have much time to practice the piano nowadays.

i hope i'll pass FRSM ALL IN ONE GO this time round! (even if i fail, i hope i'll fail in the QS only!)

btw, r u also from HK? have u taken any diploma exams? if yes, what level?

u mentioned that u know a few FRSM holders? do u mind if i ask u who are they?

i'm really stuck in the written submission, even though i have finished reading the syllabus!

yes, if i have the ability to do so, i would really want to write my w/s by self-study (since it saves loadsa $), but i wonder if self-studying for this exam would be beyond my ability!

pls. reply. look fwd to hearing from u again!

luv,

Duen Duen

QUOTE (Floutist @ Mar 23 2005, 01:02 PM)

I know 2 people who has FRSM in piano performing, one is a medicine major and the other a young man of about 20. The medicine major got a distinction and I think probably the other did too.

Dear Floutist,

where do the 2 FRSM pianists come from? are they from HK?

is the medicine major male or female? what's his/her name? (i'll look out his name on the 2003 annual review!)

The 2 FRSM holders on the 2003 list are Cha Hoi Lun, Helen and Leung Pok Man. Helen is an APA student and is abt 21 this year. i dunno her personally, but i had seen her in one of her concert leaflets. She completed LRSM n LTCL at 17!

i THINK LPM also plays the piano, though not 100% sure. is he the medicine major that u were referring to?

Duen Duen

Dear all from HK,

Don't rely on the leaflet of ABRSM Diploma award ceremony of 2003 and 2004, as they contain quite a number of mistakes.

Helen Cha is an HKAPA student and got a distinction in FRSM piano in 2003; her LRSM was awarded in 2001.

Leung Pok Man also plays the violin (and got LRSM both in Piano and violin in 2001); as far as I know, he got an FRSM in violin, instead of in piano as what was "published". Don't know whether he is a medicine major now coz he is not in HK, or whether he got a distinction in FRSM. Brilliant young man, really.

Dear Wai Kit,
I'm familiar with your name through the 'Basson Français' webgroup to which you've contributed informative posts :-) Did you happen to perform the Dutilleux Oboe Sonata for your exam (either LRSM or FRSM)? I'm personally quite fond of that work...
- ericpark

Leung Pok Man actually got his FRSM in piano last year and he played the Beethoven Op. 109 and Schumann Carnaval. He is not a medicine major

Mr. Leung got FRSM last year? You mean 2004? That's interesting. I thought the namelist I have contains all successful candidates in 2003 only !!! Or maybe he got it in the April/May session 2004. As for the instrument, I got the info from an authoritative source ... maybe the "source" has mixed things up ...

That's right
I got the info from a more authoritative source... which is himself in person...

BTW Eos,

Is it Mrs G. who gave you the information? Coz I remember hearing her giving out this piece of "mis-information" at Nov 03 last year

Dear ericpark,

I am also fond of the Dutilleux Oboe Sonata. I didn't do it for my LRSM or FRSM, but I would if I were to do the FRSM again with a different programme.

Do you play the bassoon yourself? Are you from Asia as well?

Wai Kit Leung

Sonata in b,
What you guess is right. You were there in the ceremony? Do I know you in person, then?

Do diploma recipients get notified for attending the ceremony? I was never informed of that, nor was I given the academic dress ...

Dear Wai Kit,
I am talking about award ceremony in HK. Don't know what would be done in other regions. Did you do your exams in HK?

Dear Eos,

I did my graded exams in Hong Kong and my diploma exams in Canada. I understand that the discussion was regarding the ceremony in Hong Kong, I was just wondering whether diploma recipients in Hong Kong actually got notified of the ceremony, or would they have to inquire about it themselves. Thanks!

Wai Kit Leung

Diploma awardees in HK would get invitation letters weeks prior to the ceremony, asking whether they would come, the arrangements of the academic gowns and phototaking and so on.

Dear Wai Kit,
Yes, I play the bassoon recreationally and I'm of Korean/Chinese parentage.
-ericpark

Eos,

I suppose you shouldn't have assumed that things told to you are true unless you hear it from the horse's mouth, as they say. But as for Patrick Leung, I can trust Debra to be a very reliable source since she has been Patrick's accompanist on the violin...

Speaking of printed mistakes by the board, the 2003 Annual Review does contain an error with regards to its list of successful FRSM candidates. The FRSM in violin performance holder, Jap Tji Kien, is wrongly listed under "Singapore" when it should have been "Indonesia".

To Eos:
I'm the one who played the scherzo no. 2. Are you the MC?

To Ericpark:
Would you mind telling me how did you get acquainted with the fact that I used to play with Patrick?

Sonata in b,
Yes I was the MC and congratulations on your brilliant FRSM! Remember what our mentor G predicted? Just hoping that I can have time to practice for the FRSM within a couple of years ...

Ericpark,
From the horse's mouth ... yes I know ... but what if one of the "horse's mouths" got things wrong? Knowing well enough of the notorious things of the Board in terms of accuracy of information ...

Eos,
To literally qualify as being straight from the horse's mouth, it would have to be a first-hand, unimpeachable source... I'm not implying that the Board has always got to be this unimpeachable source (sometimes it's preferable to hear directly from the person in question, assuming s/he is truthful), but presuming something a second or third party has said to be true would still be equivalent to hearsay.

Deb,
I attended a concert in May last year at CUHK where you accompanied some others in a chamber music recital. Patrick was obviously among them. Nice work, all :-)

Ericpark,
Heresay? As the MC of the ceremony I was informed THERE SHOULD BE AN AMENDMENT AS SUCH ON THE AWARDEES LIST!

Eos,

Nice to see you here

Ericpark,

Well I thought that all who attended that concert were friends or relatives of mine because of the poor advertising How did you get to be there?

Wow, it's interesting how this thread has really taken a twist from its original topic.

aznxboy1228,

Obviously this twist has sth to do w/ the suspension of private messaging.

oh, i didn't realize

back to the topic...

Just to say there can't be an amazingly huge gap between DipABRSM and LRSM - the dvorak (cello) concerto 2nd mvmt has mysteriously been moved up a level this year even though i would expect anyone at DipABRSM to be able to play it

anyway im playing it this year on the old sylabus...does that mean i can do it twice?

ps this is my first post, im a dipabrsm cellist and grd 7 pianist from soton

I agree.. my recent posting on Organ Diplomas had the same view.. In fact for that instrument there are pieces on the Grade 8 syllabus (e.g. Whitlock Toccata) which for me are harder to play than some on the LRSM list (e.g. Buxtehude Ciacona). I would guess at the higher levels it's more about musicianship / historical performance practice etc. rather than mechanical ability to get all the notes in the right place

--mrb

I second mrb's point -- in fact for my FRSM, one of the pieces I played (chosen from the list) was also on the Grade 6 list (!!!). Playing an easy piece musically is more important than playing a difficult piece poorly at the diploma level

QUOTE (Wai Kit Leung @ Apr 4 2005, 03:13 PM)

Playing an easy piece musically is more important than playing a difficult piece poorly at the diploma level

True... but to perform a difficult piece poorly is to fall into 'failure' territory at the diploma level... Looking at things from another perspective, there's inclusion of "difficult" or "challenging" repertoire in the Graded syllabus to tempt those who are more accomplished at graded levels to attempt those pieces. Using examples from the 1998 ABRSM organ syllabus, the Brahms Fugue in A flat minor appeared in Grade 7 while the first movement from Widor's 6th Symphony was set for Grade 8. Both works are currently represented in the FRSM syllabus. Another example from the Australian Music Examining Board (AMEB) finds the Buxtehude Ciacona in E minor, BuxWV 160 (mentioned by mrb) under their Grade 6 while it is listed in the present LRSM syllabus.

QUOTE (Billymay @ Apr 5 2005, 12:03 AM)

QUOTE (Wai Kit Leung @ Apr 4 2005, 03:13 PM) Playing an easy piece musically is more important than playing a difficult piece poorly at the diploma level  :D True... but to perform a difficult piece poorly is to fall into 'failure' territory at the diploma level...

That is exactly my point -- playing a difficult piece (or any piece for that matter) poorly will constitute a failure at the diploma level. It is important to play musically AS WELL AS to play with a secure technique. Not necessarily note-perfect or error-free, but one must demonstrate a sound technique.