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Full Version: Chinese Violins
The violins, violas, cellos, and double basses can be found in shops from Berkeley, California, to Des Moines, Iowa, from New York City to Charlotte, North Carolina. They're sold under such names as Andreas Eastman, Johannes Köhr, Andrew Schroetter, and countless others. But no matter how European-sounding their names, many of these shiny new stringed instruments on display in stores throughout the United States share a common origin: China.
Indeed, thousands of stringed instruments on the U.S. market now hail from a country far removed geographically and culturally from the European tradition of string music, and this Asian nation has become a major lutherie center.
As recently as five years ago, there was little love for Chinese-made violins among American instrument buyers and sellers. Since then, however, those instruments have taken the market by storm—especially at the introductory student level—thanks to a combination of improvements in quality and low prices made possible by cheap labor costs.
Yet it's impossible to say how many workshops and factories in China are making and manufacturing stringed instruments. "I've been to dozens of them, and I don't think I've even scratched the surface," reports Stephen Sheppard, president and owner of Tucson, Arizona-based retailer Southwest Strings. "It's a big country."
What's In a Name?
Like many domestic manufacturers, distributors, and retailers, Southwest Strings has become an active partner with the Chinese violin industry, selling both factory-produced instruments under the Klaus Mueller label and workshop-made instruments in the Yuan Qin line.
Even the stores that carry these instruments don't always know who has made them. "We don't know where the workshop is unless our suppliers tell us," explains Matt Zeller, an apprentice violin maker at Donley Violins in Charlotte, North Carolina. "We have suppliers who have family-owned workshops and others who will deal with anyone."
That confusion is widespread. "It’s laughable how much rebranding and mismatching and criss-crossing is going on," adds Jason Torreano, product manager for the string brand of the Music Group (formerly Boosey & Hawkes Musical Instruments), which sells its Chinese instruments under the Andrew Schroetter brand. "I wouldn't be surprised if [a single] instrument workshop in China was producing instruments that in the U.S. are being sold under ten or 20 names."
In fact, the import and sale of Chinese stringed instruments has become so widespread that there's literally no way to tell all the names under which they're being sold here. Many of the instruments come to the United States unlabeled, and wholesalers and individual shops attach labels to them that give no suggestion of their provenance. "They'll take an Italian-sounding last name and stick a first name on it, like Medici Alfredo," Zeller observes.
"Different shops do varying levels of additions," Torreano elaborates. "Some will buy instruments in the white and then do varnish and setups. Others will regraduate tops, put in the bass bar. Others are buying them completely made and just putting in a label and adding strings. Once they put their own shop label on it, you won't be able to track a lot of Chinese instruments, because at a certain point they lose their original identity."
To complicate the question of instrument origin further, violin makers in other countries also are importing Chinese-made instrument bodies in the white and finishing them in their shops. This practice allows luthiers in Germany, for example, to claim that the instruments are German-made, since 40 percent of the work (the legal minimum) is performed there.
For consumers and dealers intent on identifying the origin of their instrument, the profusion—and confusion—of names and labels for Chinese-made instruments poses a dilemma. Fortunately, by all accounts the quality of many of these instruments is good, especially by the standards of the beginner level at which they're having the greatest impact.
It wasn't always so.
A Dramatic Change
Not long ago, Chinese stringed instruments were maligned as not much better than firewood. The great improvement in their quality is one example of how the advent of a free-market economy and globalism in China has changed both Chinese industry and Western commerce.
In the past, according to Sheppard, Chinese instrument making was done under the control of the Communist Party, which put political bosses in charge of manufacturing. "The bosses didn't know anything about violin making," he says. "That's why the violins had such ######r quality. It didn't matter if you made a good instrument or not. With the recent political reforms, [manufacturing operations] now have to make a profit. Therefore, they need to let the free-enterprise system take over, and they have to make good-quality instruments."
The results of that change—prompted by a Chinese government edict that all national industries must eliminate graft, switch to a free-market model, and turn a profit by 2003—have proved impressive. "Generally, they're pretty good," Zeller says of the Chinese-made stringed instruments he's seen since the political reforms took effect. "I've got to say I'm impressed with the quality of the instrument you can get at a low price. They've brought the low end of the market way up in quality while still keeping the price at a low point.
"For the beginning student they're the absolute best out there, because you can get a better quality instrument than a European instrument for several hundred dollars."
Finely Crafted
Zeller also admires the overall workmanship of the Chinese instruments he sells, particularly the graduation on the tops and backs and the Strad-model f-hole placement. Although varnishes on instruments below the $600 range tend towards what he calls "shiny lacquer stuff," past that point instruments typically come with a good-quality spirit varnish. The most common problem he encounters is necks set at the wrong angles, which Zeller says is typical of all instrument makers in the lower price range.
And because China is home to some of the planet's last great stands of old-growth forests, the tonewoods used in the instruments also get good reviews both for durability—Zeller admires the tight grain of the spruce tops, the flame of the maple backs, and the warp-free necks on the instruments he's seen and for sound. Eastman Strings has captured the lionshare of the stringed instrument market in China, and is now the largest U.S. manufacturer producing violins there.
"Tonally, the Chinese woods are usually regarded as providing a warmer, less penetrating sound," says Joel Becktell, vice president of Eastman Strings, whose Samuel Eastman, Andreas Eastman, and Mark Moreland instrument lines all are handmade in China by expert craftsmen. "The European tonewoods have a reputation of being more brilliantly focused in their sound."
Thanks to this improved workmanship and the availability of high-quality hardwoods, there is an abundance of excellent Chinese violins, violas, cellos, and double basses available in the United States. In particular, many of the people interviewed for this article singled out the instruments made in China under the supervision of renowned California luthier Scott Cao for praise. The Johannes Köhr line of instruments distributed by Alabama's Howard Core Company is also highly regarded by industry peers as are the Eastman and Jay Haide lines.
On the other hand, observers also warn that China continues to be a source of some terrible violins, particularly the low-price models sold over the Internet. "When you get down to the $200 ones, there should be a law against selling those things," complains Bill McClain of Atlanta Street Violins in Roswell, Georgia. "They're just selling objects, not real instruments."
He says many of these cheap Chinese violins come with warped fingerboards and ######rly fitted bridges and soundposts.
"The setup on them is so horrible that they're virtually unplayable," concurs Richard Ward of Ifshin Violins in Berkeley, California. "The bridges are not even fitted, they're just thrown out there." Ifshin sells its highly regarded Jay Haide line of stringed instruments, which are handmade in Chinese workshops but set up in the States.
Ward also warns of Chinese instrument makers who cut corners during construction by leaving out interior parts, or who use painted white wood, which wears out quickly, instead of ebony or rosewood for the fingerboard and pegs.
Consumers must rely on retailers to steer them toward the better instruments because of this variance in quality, the difficulty of distinguishing between good and bad violins by name, and the fact that most Chinese instruments are made and priced for student players (or their parents) who have no knowledge of what to look for in an instrument. "You have to be sure you’re at a reputable shop that knows what they're doing," Matt Zeller recommends. "You get a lot of people on the Internet who are really just selling trash."
Despite the presence of junk instruments, many Chinese-made student-level violins offer exceptional value at relatively inexpensive prices, which generally range from about $400 to $800 at the retail level (although they can go much higher and lower). As a result, they've quickly taken over a commanding share of the market for new string-music students. By some estimates, Chinese instruments now hold between 50 and 80 percent of the market for novice violinists.
What's all the more remarkable about this market penetration is how quickly it happened. "About three years ago was when it really started to take off," says Alex Weidner, managing partner of the Howard Core Company. "You go back five years, and if you came in with a Chinese violin, people were really skeptical. It has been a dramatic change."
China vs. Europe
That change has come largely at the expense of European violin manufacturers, whose labor costs prevent them from competing with Chinese instruments on price and whose reliance on machine manufacturing now sometimes leaves them behind in quality as well. Michael Becker, co-owner of Becker Fine Stringed Instruments in Des Moines (which sells Eastman Strings violins), recalls that for years the standby instruments for beginners came from such manufacturers as Glaesel, Knilling, and Scherl & Roth. "Those were the names that you ran into constantly for entry-level students, and I think the Chinese instruments have given those instruments competition.
"Today, young players have infinitely more options than I had," adds Becker, who in addition to running his music store is a teacher, chamber musician, and violinist for the Des Moines Symphony.
Yet, European violin makers still reign supreme at the higher levels of the violin market. "You don't find [many] high-class instruments [in China], with few exceptions, and those few exceptions will have difficulty being recognized as such," says master violin maker and dealer Fritz Reuter, owner of Fritz Reuter & Sons in Lincolnwood, Illinois, who sells the Snow line of Chinese workshop violins.
For students who have reached the intermediate to advanced level, let alone professionals, the attention to detail found in European and American hand-crafted violins makes them the instruments of choice. "You've got the experienced makers making the high-quality product," acknowledges Weidner. "They've been doing it for generations. To make a superb instrument, they've got the knowledge. To make a student-quality instrument, you can train some workers [to accomplish the task with minimal skills]. To get the detail you need as you move up the ladder, experience is needed."
Pockets of resistance to Chinese instruments still remain on the student level, as well. In some cases, schools have had such bad luck with inferior Chinese instruments in the past that they have discouraged their students from renting them. In others, cultural biases remain an obstacle. "Some people will always want a European instrument, they'll always want a German violin," notes H. R. Core, marketing manager for Howard Core Company.
For the most part, though, acceptance of Chinese-made instruments has been growing steadily, a trend that not only is affecting violin manufacturing and sales, but also is having beneficial effects on an entire generation of aspiring string musicians. There's little doubt that over the long run the increasing accessibility and affordability of higher-quality Chinese instruments will benefit buyers and sellers alike.
"Because there are so many inexpensive instruments out there," Jason Torreano says, "the number of kids who are starting on stringed instruments is multiplying."
Photos (from top to bottom):
ROUGH CUT: Before the f-holes are hand-trimmed with a knife, this worker at Eastman Strings' Beijing workshop uses a jeweler's saw to rough them in.
FINE TUNING: An Eastman Strings luthier uses heat and moisture to bend a cello rib in the traditional manner
FINE TOLERANCES: When carving tops and backs by hand, luthiers at Eastman Strings' Beijing workshop use finely calibrated calipers to check thicknesses frequently.
CHUNXIAN NI: President of Eastman Strings' Beijing operations, selects seasoned maple for a cello back.
TOOLS OF THE TRADE: The workbench of a scroll carver at Eastman Strings' Beijing workshop demonstrates the hand tools used exclusively in the workshop.
ON THE CORNER: A luthier at Eastman Strings' Beijing workshop prepares a cello rib mold by fitting corner and end blocks into their mortises.
STEP BY STEP: A luthier at Eastman Strings' Beijing workshop removes a completed set of ribs from its mold by breaking the glue seam temporarily holding the corner block in place.
SHAPE OF THINGS TO COME: A luthier in Eastman Strings' Beijing workshop shapes corner blocks prior to rib bending.
Excerpted from Strings magazine, October, 2003, No. 113.
Indeed, thousands of stringed instruments on the U.S. market now hail from a country far removed geographically and culturally from the European tradition of string music, and this Asian nation has become a major lutherie center.
As recently as five years ago, there was little love for Chinese-made violins among American instrument buyers and sellers. Since then, however, those instruments have taken the market by storm—especially at the introductory student level—thanks to a combination of improvements in quality and low prices made possible by cheap labor costs.
Yet it's impossible to say how many workshops and factories in China are making and manufacturing stringed instruments. "I've been to dozens of them, and I don't think I've even scratched the surface," reports Stephen Sheppard, president and owner of Tucson, Arizona-based retailer Southwest Strings. "It's a big country."
What's In a Name?
Like many domestic manufacturers, distributors, and retailers, Southwest Strings has become an active partner with the Chinese violin industry, selling both factory-produced instruments under the Klaus Mueller label and workshop-made instruments in the Yuan Qin line.
Even the stores that carry these instruments don't always know who has made them. "We don't know where the workshop is unless our suppliers tell us," explains Matt Zeller, an apprentice violin maker at Donley Violins in Charlotte, North Carolina. "We have suppliers who have family-owned workshops and others who will deal with anyone."
That confusion is widespread. "It’s laughable how much rebranding and mismatching and criss-crossing is going on," adds Jason Torreano, product manager for the string brand of the Music Group (formerly Boosey & Hawkes Musical Instruments), which sells its Chinese instruments under the Andrew Schroetter brand. "I wouldn't be surprised if [a single] instrument workshop in China was producing instruments that in the U.S. are being sold under ten or 20 names."
In fact, the import and sale of Chinese stringed instruments has become so widespread that there's literally no way to tell all the names under which they're being sold here. Many of the instruments come to the United States unlabeled, and wholesalers and individual shops attach labels to them that give no suggestion of their provenance. "They'll take an Italian-sounding last name and stick a first name on it, like Medici Alfredo," Zeller observes.
"Different shops do varying levels of additions," Torreano elaborates. "Some will buy instruments in the white and then do varnish and setups. Others will regraduate tops, put in the bass bar. Others are buying them completely made and just putting in a label and adding strings. Once they put their own shop label on it, you won't be able to track a lot of Chinese instruments, because at a certain point they lose their original identity."
To complicate the question of instrument origin further, violin makers in other countries also are importing Chinese-made instrument bodies in the white and finishing them in their shops. This practice allows luthiers in Germany, for example, to claim that the instruments are German-made, since 40 percent of the work (the legal minimum) is performed there.
For consumers and dealers intent on identifying the origin of their instrument, the profusion—and confusion—of names and labels for Chinese-made instruments poses a dilemma. Fortunately, by all accounts the quality of many of these instruments is good, especially by the standards of the beginner level at which they're having the greatest impact.
It wasn't always so.
A Dramatic Change
Not long ago, Chinese stringed instruments were maligned as not much better than firewood. The great improvement in their quality is one example of how the advent of a free-market economy and globalism in China has changed both Chinese industry and Western commerce.
In the past, according to Sheppard, Chinese instrument making was done under the control of the Communist Party, which put political bosses in charge of manufacturing. "The bosses didn't know anything about violin making," he says. "That's why the violins had such ######r quality. It didn't matter if you made a good instrument or not. With the recent political reforms, [manufacturing operations] now have to make a profit. Therefore, they need to let the free-enterprise system take over, and they have to make good-quality instruments."
The results of that change—prompted by a Chinese government edict that all national industries must eliminate graft, switch to a free-market model, and turn a profit by 2003—have proved impressive. "Generally, they're pretty good," Zeller says of the Chinese-made stringed instruments he's seen since the political reforms took effect. "I've got to say I'm impressed with the quality of the instrument you can get at a low price. They've brought the low end of the market way up in quality while still keeping the price at a low point.
"For the beginning student they're the absolute best out there, because you can get a better quality instrument than a European instrument for several hundred dollars."
Finely Crafted
Zeller also admires the overall workmanship of the Chinese instruments he sells, particularly the graduation on the tops and backs and the Strad-model f-hole placement. Although varnishes on instruments below the $600 range tend towards what he calls "shiny lacquer stuff," past that point instruments typically come with a good-quality spirit varnish. The most common problem he encounters is necks set at the wrong angles, which Zeller says is typical of all instrument makers in the lower price range.
And because China is home to some of the planet's last great stands of old-growth forests, the tonewoods used in the instruments also get good reviews both for durability—Zeller admires the tight grain of the spruce tops, the flame of the maple backs, and the warp-free necks on the instruments he's seen and for sound. Eastman Strings has captured the lionshare of the stringed instrument market in China, and is now the largest U.S. manufacturer producing violins there.
"Tonally, the Chinese woods are usually regarded as providing a warmer, less penetrating sound," says Joel Becktell, vice president of Eastman Strings, whose Samuel Eastman, Andreas Eastman, and Mark Moreland instrument lines all are handmade in China by expert craftsmen. "The European tonewoods have a reputation of being more brilliantly focused in their sound."
Thanks to this improved workmanship and the availability of high-quality hardwoods, there is an abundance of excellent Chinese violins, violas, cellos, and double basses available in the United States. In particular, many of the people interviewed for this article singled out the instruments made in China under the supervision of renowned California luthier Scott Cao for praise. The Johannes Köhr line of instruments distributed by Alabama's Howard Core Company is also highly regarded by industry peers as are the Eastman and Jay Haide lines.
On the other hand, observers also warn that China continues to be a source of some terrible violins, particularly the low-price models sold over the Internet. "When you get down to the $200 ones, there should be a law against selling those things," complains Bill McClain of Atlanta Street Violins in Roswell, Georgia. "They're just selling objects, not real instruments."
He says many of these cheap Chinese violins come with warped fingerboards and ######rly fitted bridges and soundposts.
"The setup on them is so horrible that they're virtually unplayable," concurs Richard Ward of Ifshin Violins in Berkeley, California. "The bridges are not even fitted, they're just thrown out there." Ifshin sells its highly regarded Jay Haide line of stringed instruments, which are handmade in Chinese workshops but set up in the States.
Ward also warns of Chinese instrument makers who cut corners during construction by leaving out interior parts, or who use painted white wood, which wears out quickly, instead of ebony or rosewood for the fingerboard and pegs.
Consumers must rely on retailers to steer them toward the better instruments because of this variance in quality, the difficulty of distinguishing between good and bad violins by name, and the fact that most Chinese instruments are made and priced for student players (or their parents) who have no knowledge of what to look for in an instrument. "You have to be sure you’re at a reputable shop that knows what they're doing," Matt Zeller recommends. "You get a lot of people on the Internet who are really just selling trash."
Despite the presence of junk instruments, many Chinese-made student-level violins offer exceptional value at relatively inexpensive prices, which generally range from about $400 to $800 at the retail level (although they can go much higher and lower). As a result, they've quickly taken over a commanding share of the market for new string-music students. By some estimates, Chinese instruments now hold between 50 and 80 percent of the market for novice violinists.
What's all the more remarkable about this market penetration is how quickly it happened. "About three years ago was when it really started to take off," says Alex Weidner, managing partner of the Howard Core Company. "You go back five years, and if you came in with a Chinese violin, people were really skeptical. It has been a dramatic change."
China vs. Europe
That change has come largely at the expense of European violin manufacturers, whose labor costs prevent them from competing with Chinese instruments on price and whose reliance on machine manufacturing now sometimes leaves them behind in quality as well. Michael Becker, co-owner of Becker Fine Stringed Instruments in Des Moines (which sells Eastman Strings violins), recalls that for years the standby instruments for beginners came from such manufacturers as Glaesel, Knilling, and Scherl & Roth. "Those were the names that you ran into constantly for entry-level students, and I think the Chinese instruments have given those instruments competition.
"Today, young players have infinitely more options than I had," adds Becker, who in addition to running his music store is a teacher, chamber musician, and violinist for the Des Moines Symphony.
Yet, European violin makers still reign supreme at the higher levels of the violin market. "You don't find [many] high-class instruments [in China], with few exceptions, and those few exceptions will have difficulty being recognized as such," says master violin maker and dealer Fritz Reuter, owner of Fritz Reuter & Sons in Lincolnwood, Illinois, who sells the Snow line of Chinese workshop violins.
For students who have reached the intermediate to advanced level, let alone professionals, the attention to detail found in European and American hand-crafted violins makes them the instruments of choice. "You've got the experienced makers making the high-quality product," acknowledges Weidner. "They've been doing it for generations. To make a superb instrument, they've got the knowledge. To make a student-quality instrument, you can train some workers [to accomplish the task with minimal skills]. To get the detail you need as you move up the ladder, experience is needed."
Pockets of resistance to Chinese instruments still remain on the student level, as well. In some cases, schools have had such bad luck with inferior Chinese instruments in the past that they have discouraged their students from renting them. In others, cultural biases remain an obstacle. "Some people will always want a European instrument, they'll always want a German violin," notes H. R. Core, marketing manager for Howard Core Company.
For the most part, though, acceptance of Chinese-made instruments has been growing steadily, a trend that not only is affecting violin manufacturing and sales, but also is having beneficial effects on an entire generation of aspiring string musicians. There's little doubt that over the long run the increasing accessibility and affordability of higher-quality Chinese instruments will benefit buyers and sellers alike.
"Because there are so many inexpensive instruments out there," Jason Torreano says, "the number of kids who are starting on stringed instruments is multiplying."
Photos (from top to bottom):
ROUGH CUT: Before the f-holes are hand-trimmed with a knife, this worker at Eastman Strings' Beijing workshop uses a jeweler's saw to rough them in.
FINE TUNING: An Eastman Strings luthier uses heat and moisture to bend a cello rib in the traditional manner
FINE TOLERANCES: When carving tops and backs by hand, luthiers at Eastman Strings' Beijing workshop use finely calibrated calipers to check thicknesses frequently.
CHUNXIAN NI: President of Eastman Strings' Beijing operations, selects seasoned maple for a cello back.
TOOLS OF THE TRADE: The workbench of a scroll carver at Eastman Strings' Beijing workshop demonstrates the hand tools used exclusively in the workshop.
ON THE CORNER: A luthier at Eastman Strings' Beijing workshop prepares a cello rib mold by fitting corner and end blocks into their mortises.
STEP BY STEP: A luthier at Eastman Strings' Beijing workshop removes a completed set of ribs from its mold by breaking the glue seam temporarily holding the corner block in place.
SHAPE OF THINGS TO COME: A luthier in Eastman Strings' Beijing workshop shapes corner blocks prior to rib bending.
Excerpted from Strings magazine, October, 2003, No. 113.
There have been a small Violin factory that went onto the Time megazine for its renowned craftmanship of making stunning quality violins. However, the same problem emerge with it is, there are incredibly many smaller factories, and you will never be able to locate the good ones unless somebody knows the way and brings you there.
I believe there are very good quality violins made in China nowadays, but most of them are custom made violins and do cost a fortune to possess. In the mass market, I can hardly find any good quality student violins made in China.
I believe there are very good quality violins made in China nowadays, but most of them are custom made violins and do cost a fortune to possess. In the mass market, I can hardly find any good quality student violins made in China.
I think the point of the article was to not be to dismissive of the 'newer' chineses made strings as the general level of quality has improved considerably from the rubbish they had been knocking out during the 90's. I'm not saying by any means they are at the same level as well made pro European instruments but at the 'student' level they do appear to be making more well rounded instruments these days. For example the Boosey and Hawkes DB i recently bought was made in China so i recently discovered, yet has a fully carved solid spruce top and nice solid ebony fingerboard. Many European companies are using ply substitute, where as China has its own ample supply of tropical woods to choose from as well as cheap labour costs. Its food for thought i think. 
QUOTE(tannie @ Mar 20 2004, 09:02 PM)
In the mass market, I can hardly find any good quality student violins made in China.
O that is simply not true. If you think it is true then you haven't looked very far yet.
Liz
QUOTE(Eastman @ Nov 11 2005, 06:52 PM)
I am confident you will discover Eastman Strings provides old-fashioned quality for students (and professionals) at a competitive price.
Perhaps, but most users on this forum are in the UK. I seem to recall mailing you some time ago about the possibility of supplying your instruments and not getting a reply - which, alas, is a rather common reaction of US wholesalers and importers to inquiries from the UK
Liz
now now Liz!
Your Gligas will stand the test of any competition. And I suspect "Eastman" is an employee of the Eastman empire who is unlikely to be the person who received your letter. I thought the article was quite interesting. What will also be interesting is when chinese factories decide to start producing really top level violins in bulk....
Your Gligas will stand the test of any competition. And I suspect "Eastman" is an employee of the Eastman empire who is unlikely to be the person who received your letter. I thought the article was quite interesting. What will also be interesting is when chinese factories decide to start producing really top level violins in bulk....
QUOTE(zoda @ Nov 11 2005, 06:46 PM)
now now Liz!
Your Gligas will stand the test of any competition. And I suspect "Eastman" is an employee of the Eastman empire who is unlikely to be the person who received your letter. I thought the article was quite interesting. What will also be interesting is when chinese factories decide to start producing really top level violins in bulk....
Your Gligas will stand the test of any competition. And I suspect "Eastman" is an employee of the Eastman empire who is unlikely to be the person who received your letter. I thought the article was quite interesting. What will also be interesting is when chinese factories decide to start producing really top level violins in bulk....
I've also had a recent conversation about clarinets and brass instruments from China and India.
I think that we all have to be very wary of the power of marketing. and advertising. Our own preconceived ideas can be a major hurdle in judging new developments. This has been proven in, for example, international wine tasting competitions, where, until recently, the french resisted any moves to make it a complete 'blind' test. One of the results of the changes was the British winning an award for a white wine, something that would have been impossible a few years ago.
I am a regular on the clarinet forum at wwww.woodwind.org and there has been a lot of talk about the decrease in quality of european instruments, particularly with Selmer and Buffet clarinets.
Given the chinese meticulous attention to detail, why should a chinese violin be worse than a european one? China has changed considerably over the last ten years.
My children had very good friends whose father worked for Philips Whirlpool. They have now moved to Shanghai. Technology is at the cutting edge there.
I think we should all keep an open mind as far as the emergent instrument makers are concerned.
I'd also love to see a true blind test of the various instruments.
A project for a rainy day perhaps?
Steve
QUOTE(stevensfo @ Nov 11 2005, 07:20 PM)
This has been proven in, for example, international wine tasting competitions, where, until recently, the french resisted any moves to make it a complete 'blind' test. One of the results of the changes was the British winning an award for a white wine, something that would have been impossible a few years ago.
you're kidding!
what was the award? what was the wine? where does it come from? have you tasted it? if so what did you think? do they do a red?
This was a very interesting article, thanks!
I have my eye on a basic student cello from 'the far East' on Gear 4 Music . com which goes for only £175 including case. I felt that it would probably be OK for the first few grades, by which time I might have enough money etc to get a decent one, (you say there's no real difference between Gems 1 & 2, Liz, is there anything special between Gama 1 & 2??). A few people have said that this on-line company are reliable and do decent quality stuff, so I suppose it would be OK. Anyone any thoughts here???
I have my eye on a basic student cello from 'the far East' on Gear 4 Music . com which goes for only £175 including case. I felt that it would probably be OK for the first few grades, by which time I might have enough money etc to get a decent one, (you say there's no real difference between Gems 1 & 2, Liz, is there anything special between Gama 1 & 2??). A few people have said that this on-line company are reliable and do decent quality stuff, so I suppose it would be OK. Anyone any thoughts here???
Elisabeth, probably it will be fine subject to the caveat below about soundposts. The problem is that as a novice buyer you won't know - unless you can get someone who knows what they are talking about to check it out within the returns period. Even then, you would of course have to get it back to the shop which, with a cello could at worst cost you £85 - but only if it has to go by DHL or similar (officially they are oversize for the Post Office but many Post Offices will turn a blind eye to this so usually you can just use standard parcels which is what we do).
One word of advice - contact them and check that their definition of "defective" in
"If products becomes defective within 30 days of purchase then the vendor will arrange collection of the product, and arrange delivery of a replacement or repaired product back to the purchaser at the vendors cost."
includes the instrument arriving with soundpost down. If it doesn't then ask if they will ship bridge up having first checked that the soundpost is in place, and if they won't, then go elsewhere, unless you know in advance that you have access to someone who will be willing to put the soundpost up for you: sending bridge down greatly increases the chances of soundpost collapse in transit, and if it has been sent from China and dispatched straight from the warehouse without being checked then your chances of recieving one with the soundpost down are probably something like 75%. You then have to find a repairer who is willing to put it back up for you, and the great majority will want to do more than just that - you could easily end up being urged to pay £200-£300 "just to make it playable" or to "Trade it in for one of ours which will be a lot better" and the trouble is that you won't know how much of that is true and how much is just the shop wanting to make a sale. And of course, you cannot force a repairer to repair an instrument he has not sold. Repairers are in very short supply.
But don't let me put you off - call them and ask the questions.
We can't help with cheap cellos, alas, because when we got a batch in a year or so ago we found it literally impossible to sell them at a profit, so these days we don't sell anything below £500.
We've never yet had a Gama 1 cello in but the difference is largely cosmetic and IMO unlikely to be worth the extra cost.
Liz
One word of advice - contact them and check that their definition of "defective" in
"If products becomes defective within 30 days of purchase then the vendor will arrange collection of the product, and arrange delivery of a replacement or repaired product back to the purchaser at the vendors cost."
includes the instrument arriving with soundpost down. If it doesn't then ask if they will ship bridge up having first checked that the soundpost is in place, and if they won't, then go elsewhere, unless you know in advance that you have access to someone who will be willing to put the soundpost up for you: sending bridge down greatly increases the chances of soundpost collapse in transit, and if it has been sent from China and dispatched straight from the warehouse without being checked then your chances of recieving one with the soundpost down are probably something like 75%. You then have to find a repairer who is willing to put it back up for you, and the great majority will want to do more than just that - you could easily end up being urged to pay £200-£300 "just to make it playable" or to "Trade it in for one of ours which will be a lot better" and the trouble is that you won't know how much of that is true and how much is just the shop wanting to make a sale. And of course, you cannot force a repairer to repair an instrument he has not sold. Repairers are in very short supply.
But don't let me put you off - call them and ask the questions.
We can't help with cheap cellos, alas, because when we got a batch in a year or so ago we found it literally impossible to sell them at a profit, so these days we don't sell anything below £500.
We've never yet had a Gama 1 cello in but the difference is largely cosmetic and IMO unlikely to be worth the extra cost.
Liz
Thanks enormously Liz! That's what I really like about you is that you give an unbiased opinion without trying to steer business to yourself. Good woman! 
Integrity is a rare quality, but I'd say you certainly have it.
Good to know about the Gamas as I've heard such rave reports about Gligas here that I'd already made up my mind to come to you for my better quality instrument.
Once I get to grade 5 (I'm planning on taking up viola then too....), I will be in touch! Wish I wasn't so skint now and could get something more inspiring than the cheapest of the cheap. Sigh! Can't even start yet until Sir has finished his MA and income is more stable, but at least he's agreed to it then, which makes the whole operation a lot more pleasurable.
Have a good day!
Integrity is a rare quality, but I'd say you certainly have it.Good to know about the Gamas as I've heard such rave reports about Gligas here that I'd already made up my mind to come to you for my better quality instrument.
Once I get to grade 5 (I'm planning on taking up viola then too....), I will be in touch! Wish I wasn't so skint now and could get something more inspiring than the cheapest of the cheap. Sigh! Can't even start yet until Sir has finished his MA and income is more stable, but at least he's agreed to it then, which makes the whole operation a lot more pleasurable.Have a good day!
QUOTE
what was the award? what was the wine? where does it come from? have you tasted it? if so what did you think? do they do a red?
Link:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,...1517604,00.html
No, I haven't tasted it. I prefer red myself.
Steve
QUOTE(elisabeth_rb @ Nov 13 2005, 07:43 AM)
Thanks enormously Liz! That's what I really like about you is that you give an unbiased opinion without trying to steer business to yourself. Good woman! Integrity is a rare quality, but I'd say you certainly have it.
Integrity is a rare quality, but I'd say you certainly have it.Amen! Liz, you're a gem
(of the sparkly, rather than the stringed, kind, else you'd have to be a maestro 
)
Awwww, you're all too kind
Liz
Liz
QUOTE(elisabeth_rb @ Nov 12 2005, 09:37 AM)
!
I have my eye on a basic student cello from 'the far East' on Gear 4 Music . com which goes for only £175 including case. I felt that it would probably be OK for the first few grades, by which time I might have enough money etc to get a decent one, (you say there's no real difference between Gems 1 & 2, Liz, is there anything special between Gama 1 & 2??). A few people have said that this on-line company are reliable and do decent quality stuff, so I suppose it would be OK. Anyone any thoughts here???
I have my eye on a basic student cello from 'the far East' on Gear 4 Music . com which goes for only £175 including case. I felt that it would probably be OK for the first few grades, by which time I might have enough money etc to get a decent one, (you say there's no real difference between Gems 1 & 2, Liz, is there anything special between Gama 1 & 2??). A few people have said that this on-line company are reliable and do decent quality stuff, so I suppose it would be OK. Anyone any thoughts here???
I know few people that have bought off gear4music.com. I know of only one cello bought from the site a 1/2 size it arrive fine with soundpost still up. The case itself is about £100 on its own. My son has one of these cases and it is very well made and finished off. BUT it is very bulky and doesnt have wheels.
I bought a cello off Saramande music 2 weeks ago, the teacher was pleased with it and said with an upgrade of Jargar would get my son to at least grade 5. He is sitting grade 3 this term after a year of lessons. It is a 1/2 size so by the time he gets to the exam he will probably have grown out of it. The case is also hard but with wheels. It is not as well finished off. It is the same case that is supplied with the deluxe version sold by gear4music.
I hope this is of some help to you.
The only other supplier of good cellos is www.ackermanmusic.co.uk they rent cellos specific to students (school age) for £30 a term which is the best bargain I have seen. The cellos are usually Stentor 1 and 2 and are very well set up.
Good luck with your purchase.
Sorry forgot to say Liz is very helpful as I have purchased from her too. My other son plays a GEM2 violin from Liz
it still sounds lovely I think he has had it a year now. QUOTE(stevensfo @ Nov 13 2005, 12:28 PM)
QUOTE
what was the award? what was the wine? where does it come from? have you tasted it? if so what did you think? do they do a red?
Link:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,...1517604,00.html
No, I haven't tasted it. I prefer red myself.
Steve
Thanks stevensfo, what a great link! The worlds of violinmaking and wine turned upside down in one thread!
Greetings,
I am new to the forum as a registered member but have been reading your many excellent comments, advice and support to one another for some time.
I am 53 years of age, Male and an Adult Learner and began learning to play the violin just over 3 years ago, and must say I have been very much encouraged by you all. I believe the forum concerts are a brilliant idea and congratulations to everyone concerned, I hope one day to be able to have the bottle to perform in one of them. I also hope to contribute to the forum(s) when appropriate or at least when I can think of something useful to say.
With respect to Chinese violins, I was fortunate enough to have a bit of a windfall and was able to spend some of the money on a new instrument. I purchased it approx 12 months ago (from Simply Strings.com Manchester) it is was made by a master Chinese luthier “Xhen Min†(XM) the final choice was between a workshop model (supervised by XM but most probably made by an apprentice or other trained craftsman) and the “Soloist Editionâ€, which is apparently made entirely by the master maker himself. So I went for the latter and must say that I have been completely satisfied with my choice.
I was advised that the instrument would tend to perform and sing brilliantly from the middle to high registers of the finger board but would not be quite as rich on the lower range (here the workshop model would perform slightly better). Also other excellent instruments by C.H.Ling were to be considered but in the event a comparison was able to be made between the XM models and several European and American models only. Again the standard of the Ling models are reported to be excellent but slightly more expensive than the XMs
Although I was aware of past criticism of Chinese Violins, some student models being quite poor, but also equally aware that the standard of some Chinese instruments is becoming quite exceptional, as mentioned previously on the forum and in articles such as the “Strad†magazine.
.
The violins used for comparison consisted of authentic instruments made in America, Eastern and Western Europe, including English and ALL where magnificent and especially when demonstrated by a professional musician which was out of this world. It was a problem trying to differentiate between the quality of the instruments and the playing, I believe that Itzhak Perlman (Art of the Violin DVD) made a statement that went something like “when you listened to Oistrakh playing on a Strad that was not especially a good one, then this leads you to the conclusion that it was the man and not the instrument that was special and he could have played on anything with almost the same resultâ€.
All of the non Chinese instruments that I have tried previous to and during the above mentioned comparison test, have ranged in price tag from £2K to £7.5K, and the XM instruments certainly performed as well if not better than some of those at twice the price. This Instrument at £1.3Kis quality and more than capable of taking anyone to the standard of G8 and beyond whether or not I can match and accompany it remains to be seen.
Hope these comments are of some use to anyone considering a Chinese instrument.
I am new to the forum as a registered member but have been reading your many excellent comments, advice and support to one another for some time.
I am 53 years of age, Male and an Adult Learner and began learning to play the violin just over 3 years ago, and must say I have been very much encouraged by you all. I believe the forum concerts are a brilliant idea and congratulations to everyone concerned, I hope one day to be able to have the bottle to perform in one of them. I also hope to contribute to the forum(s) when appropriate or at least when I can think of something useful to say.
With respect to Chinese violins, I was fortunate enough to have a bit of a windfall and was able to spend some of the money on a new instrument. I purchased it approx 12 months ago (from Simply Strings.com Manchester) it is was made by a master Chinese luthier “Xhen Min†(XM) the final choice was between a workshop model (supervised by XM but most probably made by an apprentice or other trained craftsman) and the “Soloist Editionâ€, which is apparently made entirely by the master maker himself. So I went for the latter and must say that I have been completely satisfied with my choice.
I was advised that the instrument would tend to perform and sing brilliantly from the middle to high registers of the finger board but would not be quite as rich on the lower range (here the workshop model would perform slightly better). Also other excellent instruments by C.H.Ling were to be considered but in the event a comparison was able to be made between the XM models and several European and American models only. Again the standard of the Ling models are reported to be excellent but slightly more expensive than the XMs
Although I was aware of past criticism of Chinese Violins, some student models being quite poor, but also equally aware that the standard of some Chinese instruments is becoming quite exceptional, as mentioned previously on the forum and in articles such as the “Strad†magazine.
.
The violins used for comparison consisted of authentic instruments made in America, Eastern and Western Europe, including English and ALL where magnificent and especially when demonstrated by a professional musician which was out of this world. It was a problem trying to differentiate between the quality of the instruments and the playing, I believe that Itzhak Perlman (Art of the Violin DVD) made a statement that went something like “when you listened to Oistrakh playing on a Strad that was not especially a good one, then this leads you to the conclusion that it was the man and not the instrument that was special and he could have played on anything with almost the same resultâ€.
All of the non Chinese instruments that I have tried previous to and during the above mentioned comparison test, have ranged in price tag from £2K to £7.5K, and the XM instruments certainly performed as well if not better than some of those at twice the price. This Instrument at £1.3Kis quality and more than capable of taking anyone to the standard of G8 and beyond whether or not I can match and accompany it remains to be seen.
Hope these comments are of some use to anyone considering a Chinese instrument.
QUOTE(frumpybabes @ Nov 14 2005, 11:25 AM)
I know few people that have bought off gear4music.com. I know of only one cello bought from the site a 1/2 size it arrive fine with soundpost still up. The case itself is about £100 on its own. My son has one of these cases and it is very well made and finished off. BUT it is very bulky and doesnt have wheels.
I bought a cello off Saramande music 2 weeks ago,
I bought a cello off Saramande music 2 weeks ago,
That's helpful and interesting, thanks! Don't Saramande ship with bridge down??? Thought they did from their e-bay ads. which put me off a bit......
QUOTE
All of the non Chinese instruments that I have tried previous to and during the above mentioned comparison test, have ranged in price tag from £2K to £7.5K,
Er, perhaps I've been living on another planet without realising it, but are you serious about those prices?
2000 pounds for a violin?
3000 Euros? I could buy our local orchestra for that!
Someone, somewhere, is making an awful lot of money!
Steve
I am afraid so Steve, the cost of Student instruments can range from £50/60 up to £500. The list shown below is info that I made a note of over 12 months ago but can't remember the source. General reading and discussions with my teachers (past & present) and various knowledgeable people in the field appear to substantiate this:-
COST ...............STANDARD
£98 - 300 ... G1 -2 (ABRSM)
£250 - 500 ... G3 - 4
£500 - 700 ... G5 - 6
£700 - 1,000...G7
£800 - 2,500...G8, County Youth Orchestra
£2000 - 4,500 ... Music College, Serious Amateur
£4000 - Plus ... Professional
£10,000 - Plus ... Virtuoso (Joshua Bell recently paid over £1 Million for his Strad)
Of course there are exceptions to the rule and I have no doubt that someone like Shaham, Bell, Hahn etc could sound great on a STENTOR MKII and do things us lesser mortals can only dream of.
Think I will stick with my XM for a while!
Regards
Shaw52
COST ...............STANDARD
£98 - 300 ... G1 -2 (ABRSM)
£250 - 500 ... G3 - 4
£500 - 700 ... G5 - 6
£700 - 1,000...G7
£800 - 2,500...G8, County Youth Orchestra
£2000 - 4,500 ... Music College, Serious Amateur
£4000 - Plus ... Professional
£10,000 - Plus ... Virtuoso (Joshua Bell recently paid over £1 Million for his Strad)
Of course there are exceptions to the rule and I have no doubt that someone like Shaham, Bell, Hahn etc could sound great on a STENTOR MKII and do things us lesser mortals can only dream of.
Think I will stick with my XM for a while!
Regards
Shaw52
Hello Shaw 52! What an interesting first post - Now that you have registered I do hope you decide to pop up now and again. How are you finding your lessons?
QUOTE(shaw52 @ Nov 15 2005, 01:09 AM)
COST ...............STANDARD
£98 - 300 ... G1 -2 (ABRSM)
£250 - 500 ... G3 - 4
£500 - 700 ... G5 - 6
£700 - 1,000...G7
£800 - 2,500...G8, County Youth Orchestra
£2000 - 4,500 ... Music College, Serious Amateur
£4000 - Plus ... Professional
£10,000 - Plus ... Virtuoso (Joshua Bell recently paid over £1 Million for his Strad)
£98 - 300 ... G1 -2 (ABRSM)
£250 - 500 ... G3 - 4
£500 - 700 ... G5 - 6
£700 - 1,000...G7
£800 - 2,500...G8, County Youth Orchestra
£2000 - 4,500 ... Music College, Serious Amateur
£4000 - Plus ... Professional
£10,000 - Plus ... Virtuoso (Joshua Bell recently paid over £1 Million for his Strad)
O that's very generalised. I did grade 8 on a Poller viola - present list price £245 - admittedly with a better bow and a professionally fitted bridge and good strings. I know someone else who did it on a zeller - present list price £170. We've sold £400 violins to teachers (several) and even a semi-professional player, and as far as I know most if not all of those play them without having had any adjustments done.
Liz
Hi Zoda,
Thanks for the welcome to the forums. I do hope to be able to contribute from time to time. I find the lessons demanding but most enjoyable. I believe that I have been extremely lucky with finding my present teacher. My experience with the first teacher was not very good, he was very unreliable with double booking lessons, arranging outings on my scheduled lesson date etc. So I didn’t stay long and was determined to try and find the best teacher available and I believe that I have.
My goals are the usual ones … to attain Grade (8) but also to be able play comfortably at that standard, to join a local Amateur Orchestra around G5 / 6.
I know that there has been quite some debate regarding the use of exams and members have quite rightly sang there praises about the structure of the ABRSM graded examinations and I believe it is only when you approach the intermediate levels that you realise the significance of the milestones these exams provide. I also find progress to be exactly like Menuhin said it would be, in one of his books, “like a slow Zig-Zag forwards. It’s only when you stop and look back 12 months you realise how far you have actual come.
Currently I am studying for G4 and hope to take this some time next year. I am not obsessed with exams but I enjoy achieving things and there appears an awful lot to go at!
Regards
Shaw52
Thanks for the welcome to the forums. I do hope to be able to contribute from time to time. I find the lessons demanding but most enjoyable. I believe that I have been extremely lucky with finding my present teacher. My experience with the first teacher was not very good, he was very unreliable with double booking lessons, arranging outings on my scheduled lesson date etc. So I didn’t stay long and was determined to try and find the best teacher available and I believe that I have.
My goals are the usual ones … to attain Grade (8) but also to be able play comfortably at that standard, to join a local Amateur Orchestra around G5 / 6.
I know that there has been quite some debate regarding the use of exams and members have quite rightly sang there praises about the structure of the ABRSM graded examinations and I believe it is only when you approach the intermediate levels that you realise the significance of the milestones these exams provide. I also find progress to be exactly like Menuhin said it would be, in one of his books, “like a slow Zig-Zag forwards. It’s only when you stop and look back 12 months you realise how far you have actual come.
Currently I am studying for G4 and hope to take this some time next year. I am not obsessed with exams but I enjoy achieving things and there appears an awful lot to go at!
Regards
Shaw52
good for you, Shaw 52! I look forward to reading more of your posts and seeing how you progress! Who knows, maybe one day you will be joining Katyjay and others in the "Adult Learners Hall of Fame"!
Hi Liz,
Yes I agree it is a very generalised list and I suppose I should have made that clearer... and also that it was a rough guide and it was meant to demonstrate to Steve that violins could cost more than £270 he seemed to be surprised that violins could cost a few thousand pounds….Apologies, I also accept that you could go all the way on a low priced instrument and people do its just that in my very limited experience those instruments that are made with quality materials and by well trained luthier / manufacturer seem to have so much more tone, colour. I suppose its all down to the ear of the beholder and the quality and skill of the fiddler. Obviously it depends on what you want to do….how far you want to go…and how much you want to pay for the instrument of your choice. Don’t suppose there will be many RNCM students starting out on their careers with a £200 or £300 instrument for those lucky enough to get careers that is.
Incidentally my first instrument was a Stentor MK II cost £110. The bridge was effectively a blank with very poor profile and when I look back was not the greatest sounding instrument you could have. I had it professionally set up…new sound post, new correctly profiled bridge and the finger board required “shooting through†the cost nearly as much as the original price had a set of Thomastiks fitted and it sounded great, until that is I compared it to other quality instruments.
Regards
Shaw52
Yes I agree it is a very generalised list and I suppose I should have made that clearer... and also that it was a rough guide and it was meant to demonstrate to Steve that violins could cost more than £270 he seemed to be surprised that violins could cost a few thousand pounds….Apologies, I also accept that you could go all the way on a low priced instrument and people do its just that in my very limited experience those instruments that are made with quality materials and by well trained luthier / manufacturer seem to have so much more tone, colour. I suppose its all down to the ear of the beholder and the quality and skill of the fiddler. Obviously it depends on what you want to do….how far you want to go…and how much you want to pay for the instrument of your choice. Don’t suppose there will be many RNCM students starting out on their careers with a £200 or £300 instrument for those lucky enough to get careers that is.
Incidentally my first instrument was a Stentor MK II cost £110. The bridge was effectively a blank with very poor profile and when I look back was not the greatest sounding instrument you could have. I had it professionally set up…new sound post, new correctly profiled bridge and the finger board required “shooting through†the cost nearly as much as the original price had a set of Thomastiks fitted and it sounded great, until that is I compared it to other quality instruments.
Regards
Shaw52
Thanks once again Zoda, playing at one of those concerts is another goal. who knows by the time I am ready they may have formed a North West Adult Learners Orchestra or something like that
Hi Shaw52, welcome to the Forums!
Have a look for posts by Snugglivixen. She's a flute Adult Learner who's just joined a starter orchestra in the North West. She might be able to give you some details about it.
Cheers
Katyjay
Have a look for posts by Snugglivixen. She's a flute Adult Learner who's just joined a starter orchestra in the North West. She might be able to give you some details about it.
Cheers
Katyjay
QUOTE(elisabeth_rb @ Nov 14 2005, 09:54 PM)
QUOTE(frumpybabes @ Nov 14 2005, 11:25 AM)
I know few people that have bought off gear4music.com. I know of only one cello bought from the site a 1/2 size it arrive fine with soundpost still up. The case itself is about £100 on its own. My son has one of these cases and it is very well made and finished off. BUT it is very bulky and doesnt have wheels.
I bought a cello off Saramande music 2 weeks ago,
I bought a cello off Saramande music 2 weeks ago,
That's helpful and interesting, thanks! Don't Saramande ship with bridge down??? Thought they did from their e-bay ads. which put me off a bit......
Yes it was shipped down and we put it back up, the teacher set the set up for good. He hasnt recommended that we get it set up for our son so it must be good enough. Normally the bridge is adjusted as well as soundpost but it arrived in playing order. I cant say they all do but ours was ok.
Greetings Katyjay,
Thank you also for the welcome and advice. I will check out the posts as suggested. I have heard of the Lowry Strings Group and also the Friends Orchestra associated with the Manchester Camerata that welcomes musicians of All abilities, they sound great and I shall investigate further.
Regards
Shaw52
Thank you also for the welcome and advice. I will check out the posts as suggested. I have heard of the Lowry Strings Group and also the Friends Orchestra associated with the Manchester Camerata that welcomes musicians of All abilities, they sound great and I shall investigate further.
Regards
Shaw52
QUOTE
who knows by the time I am ready they may have formed a North West Adult Learners Orchestra or something like that
That brought back a few memories. Way back in the mists of time, well about 1988, I was working in East London and joined the 'East London Late Starters orchestra'. It was for strings only, so I decided to try the cello. Amazing organisation! Every Saturday morning we had 3-4 hours in a local school. I think there was some theory, then group lessons, some chamber music, then finally, the orchestra. Music was written at 3 levels of difficulty. Absolute beginners were shown how to pluck the correct strings!
Halfway through the morning, during coffee, we used to go to the hall and watch the children rehearsing for exams and competitions. The standard was so high, most adults came out misty eyed and determined to work harder.
The exhilaration of participating in an orchestra after only a few lessons was something I'll never forget.
I left London a year later. I often wonder if the orchestra is still around.
Steve
QUOTE(stevensfo @ Nov 17 2005, 07:41 AM)
I was working in East London and joined the 'East London Late Starters orchestra'. It was for strings only, so I decided to try the cello. Amazing organisation! Every Saturday morning we had 3-4 hours in a local school.
They are still around, I think and there's one here in Leeds called Yorkshire Late Starters Strings that was inspired by them! I wish I could join it, but Saturday mornings just don't work for me.
If anyone knows of any other amateur groups in the Leeds area....
Steve,
ELLSO is still alive and well and meeting in Mile End. I joined the orchestra in September 2004 and have really enjoyed it. Now there are 5 different levels catered for and lots of off shoot activities. Check out the ELLSO website. Glad to hear you have fond memories of the orchestra.
Lis
ELLSO is still alive and well and meeting in Mile End. I joined the orchestra in September 2004 and have really enjoyed it. Now there are 5 different levels catered for and lots of off shoot activities. Check out the ELLSO website. Glad to hear you have fond memories of the orchestra.
Lis
QUOTE(onion @ Nov 17 2005, 09:32 PM)
Steve,
ELLSO is still alive and well and meeting in Mile End. I joined the orchestra in September 2004 and have really enjoyed it. Now there are 5 different levels catered for and lots of off shoot activities. Check out the ELLSO website. Glad to hear you have fond memories of the orchestra.
Lis
ELLSO is still alive and well and meeting in Mile End. I joined the orchestra in September 2004 and have really enjoyed it. Now there are 5 different levels catered for and lots of off shoot activities. Check out the ELLSO website. Glad to hear you have fond memories of the orchestra.
Lis
Lis
Say hello to them for me will you!!! I've been to a couple of summer schools and a couple of sessions when I was in London, and to the Leeds one for a few terms.
Fantastic organisation and all very friendly and wonderful people
Chinese string instument has a good quality but i'm not sure about wind instrument coz my clarinet teacher in china told me the metal they use for the keys is too soft or something like that.
Next year i'm going back to china and i'm going back to china and have a look at the factorys and wookshops coz my family is thinking of going into music trader businessl. So i'll tell everyone what is actully going on inside the factory and all that.
Next year i'm going back to china and i'm going back to china and have a look at the factorys and wookshops coz my family is thinking of going into music trader businessl. So i'll tell everyone what is actully going on inside the factory and all that.
QUOTE(shaw52 @ Nov 14 2005, 06:23 PM)
With respect to Chinese violins, I was fortunate enough to have a bit of a windfall and was able to spend some of the money on a new instrument. I purchased it approx 12 months ago (from Simply Strings.com Manchester)
Rob (the owner of Simply Strings) is very knowledgeable on these things - he always gives excellent advice and if you're looking for a teacher - I would highly recommend him (he used to teach me before I left the UK). He's an astonishingly good violinist AND a very good teacher (not always an easily found combination).
On the subject of value for money for violins, you won't be robbed (no pun intended) in dealing with him or with Liz from Elida trading. I bought my violin from her and have been delighted with it from day one. She's a real star.
Allan
QUOTE(elidatrading @ Nov 15 2005, 12:22 AM)
QUOTE(shaw52 @ Nov 15 2005, 01:09 AM)
COST ...............STANDARD
£98 - 300 ... G1 -2 (ABRSM)
£250 - 500 ... G3 - 4
£500 - 700 ... G5 - 6
£700 - 1,000...G7
£800 - 2,500...G8, County Youth Orchestra
£2000 - 4,500 ... Music College, Serious Amateur
£4000 - Plus ... Professional
£10,000 - Plus ... Virtuoso (Joshua Bell recently paid over £1 Million for his Strad)
£98 - 300 ... G1 -2 (ABRSM)
£250 - 500 ... G3 - 4
£500 - 700 ... G5 - 6
£700 - 1,000...G7
£800 - 2,500...G8, County Youth Orchestra
£2000 - 4,500 ... Music College, Serious Amateur
£4000 - Plus ... Professional
£10,000 - Plus ... Virtuoso (Joshua Bell recently paid over £1 Million for his Strad)
O that's very generalised. I did grade 8 on a Poller viola - present list price £245 - admittedly with a better bow and a professionally fitted bridge and good strings. I know someone else who did it on a zeller - present list price £170. We've sold £400 violins to teachers (several) and even a semi-professional player, and as far as I know most if not all of those play them without having had any adjustments done.
Liz
Just come across this thread, and had to say that I agree completely with Liz (hi Liz!). I paid around 750 UK for my violin from her and it's a rare beauty. I had the bridge professionally fitted, the sound post replaced and the fingerboard shaved (although none of the above were necessary repairs - the instrument was absolutely fine as it was - this just got it to go the extra mile) and my current teacher in France (who teaches at the local conservatoire) said he would be perfectly happy to play my violin in an orchestral setting.
I sell Gliga violins in France only (I fell so much in love with them after buying mine) and have therefore taken a few of the lower models to him too, he was very impressed with the Gems for the price. That's not to say that a 500 UK violin is going to be the same as a 5000 UK one, simply that with certain makers, the difference isn't going to be 4500's worth.
I think Gliga and some of the better Chinese makers are really turning things around in the violin world.
Allan
QUOTE
cheap labour costs
That's the sticking point for me. I avoid sweat shopped products where I can. That, combined with China's appalling human rights record makes me a little wary of buying chinese product in general. I also recently had an appalling experience with a Chinese instrument (I bought it from a Scottish company, and didn't know it was Chinese). I did try a Chinese instrument at the luthier's where I bought my cello, and it was a nice instrument - as nice as the one that I bought in the end. But my political objections won out over the small price differential.
QUOTE(meerkat @ Feb 25 2006, 04:02 PM)
QUOTE
cheap labour costs
That's the sticking point for me. I avoid sweat shopped products where I can. That, combined with China's appalling human rights record makes me a little wary of buying chinese product in general. I also recently had an appalling experience with a Chinese instrument (I bought it from a Scottish company, and didn't know it was Chinese). I did try a Chinese instrument at the luthier's where I bought my cello, and it was a nice instrument - as nice as the one that I bought in the end. But my political objections won out over the small price differential.
Human rights abuses in China are certainly a major problem and we have had to think hard about trading with China. However there are a couple of points: the factories we deal with (and probably the ones most dealers deal with) are privately owned and run and it is hard to see how putting these factories out of business would do any good to the employees: what seems like a sweatshop wage in the West may be very differently perceived in China. The bottom line is that the workers are not slaves and do not have to work for these companies. Things may well have been very different in the past but I am talking about the way things are now. Business in China has a great deal of freedom and it is my hope that Chinese business owners and managers might start to realise that they like having freedom, and start to demand it in other areas of their lives as well. Putting trade sanctions in place is not going to have any effect on the Chinese government - to say nothing of the sheer impossibility of boycotting every product that has Chinese components.
Liz
QUOTE(rosfrog @ Feb 25 2006, 03:24 PM)
I sell Gliga violins in France only (I fell so much in love with them after buying mine) and have therefore taken a few of the lower models to him too, he was very impressed with the Gems for the price. That's not to say that a 500 UK violin is going to be the same as a 5000 UK one, simply that with certain makers, the difference isn't going to be 4500's worth.
I think Gliga and some of the better Chinese makers are really turning things around in the violin world.
Allan
Allan, how are your violin sales going?
Liz
Liz, I wonder why you think trade sanctions would be ineffective?
I know a fair number of people who suffered terribly at the hands of the chinese government, and who, because of the continuining occupation of Tibet remain separated from their loved ones. There are still huge numbers of people in prison, for political and religious offences. As a South African, I remember just how effective economic sanctions (combined with significant internal action, of course) was in undermining apartheid oppressive practices. I'm not sure why such practices would not effect the Chinese government. Of course this country and the states is unwilling to impose such sanctions, primarily because our governments perceive a valuable market and trade partner.
I agree, it's very hard to avoid chinese product. But I'd definitely avoid big ticket items, and I wouldn't buy a product I knew to be Chinese if a suitable alternative product was available.
I know a fair number of people who suffered terribly at the hands of the chinese government, and who, because of the continuining occupation of Tibet remain separated from their loved ones. There are still huge numbers of people in prison, for political and religious offences. As a South African, I remember just how effective economic sanctions (combined with significant internal action, of course) was in undermining apartheid oppressive practices. I'm not sure why such practices would not effect the Chinese government. Of course this country and the states is unwilling to impose such sanctions, primarily because our governments perceive a valuable market and trade partner.
I agree, it's very hard to avoid chinese product. But I'd definitely avoid big ticket items, and I wouldn't buy a product I knew to be Chinese if a suitable alternative product was available.
QUOTE(meerkat @ Feb 25 2006, 06:47 PM)
Liz, I wonder why you think trade sanctions would be ineffective?
because Chinese products are so competitive that it is almost impossible to avoid buying things with Chiense components. Attempting to do so would hit the very people who are in the best position to bring China out of the totalitarian mindset it is in - the Chinese themselves.
Liz
But that logic doesn't compare well with the South African example I used? The flooding of the western market with Chinese product is a relatively recent phenomenon certainly, but the miracle of trade doesn't seem to be having much effect so far! No evidence of a release of that totalitarian grip, and western powers fall over themselves to avoid embarrassing Chinese government officials by daring to discuss little things like genocide in Tibet. I'm afraid I don't share your optimism.
QUOTE(rosfrog @ Feb 25 2006, 03:24 PM)
QUOTE(shaw52 @ Nov 14 2005, 06:23 PM)
With respect to Chinese violins, I was fortunate enough to have a bit of a windfall and was able to spend some of the money on a new instrument. I purchased it approx 12 months ago (from Simply Strings.com Manchester)
Rob (the owner of Simply Strings) is very knowledgeable on these things - he always gives excellent advice and if you're looking for a teacher - I would highly recommend him (he used to teach me before I left the UK). He's an astonishingly good violinist AND a very good teacher (not always an easily found combination).
On the subject of value for money for violins, you won't be robbed (no pun intended) in dealing with him or with Liz from Elida trading. I bought my violin from her and have been delighted with it from day one. She's a real star.
Allan
QUOTE(elidatrading @ Nov 15 2005, 12:22 AM)
QUOTE(shaw52 @ Nov 15 2005, 01:09 AM)
COST ...............STANDARD
£98 - 300 ... G1 -2 (ABRSM)
£250 - 500 ... G3 - 4
£500 - 700 ... G5 - 6
£700 - 1,000...G7
£800 - 2,500...G8, County Youth Orchestra
£2000 - 4,500 ... Music College, Serious Amateur
£4000 - Plus ... Professional
£10,000 - Plus ... Virtuoso (Joshua Bell recently paid over £1 Million for his Strad)
£98 - 300 ... G1 -2 (ABRSM)
£250 - 500 ... G3 - 4
£500 - 700 ... G5 - 6
£700 - 1,000...G7
£800 - 2,500...G8, County Youth Orchestra
£2000 - 4,500 ... Music College, Serious Amateur
£4000 - Plus ... Professional
£10,000 - Plus ... Virtuoso (Joshua Bell recently paid over £1 Million for his Strad)
O that's very generalised. I did grade 8 on a Poller viola - present list price £245 - admittedly with a better bow and a professionally fitted bridge and good strings. I know someone else who did it on a zeller - present list price £170. We've sold £400 violins to teachers (several) and even a semi-professional player, and as far as I know most if not all of those play them without having had any adjustments done.
Liz
Just come across this thread, and had to say that I agree completely with Liz (hi Liz!). I paid around 750 UK for my violin from her and it's a rare beauty. I had the bridge professionally fitted, the sound post replaced and the fingerboard shaved (although none of the above were necessary repairs - the instrument was absolutely fine as it was - this just got it to go the extra mile) and my current teacher in France (who teaches at the local conservatoire) said he would be perfectly happy to play my violin in an orchestral setting.
I sell Gliga violins in France only (I fell so much in love with them after buying mine) and have therefore taken a few of the lower models to him too, he was very impressed with the Gems for the price. That's not to say that a 500 UK violin is going to be the same as a 5000 UK one, simply that with certain makers, the difference isn't going to be 4500's worth.
I think Gliga and some of the better Chinese makers are really turning things around in the violin world.
Allan
my current teacher in France (who teaches at the local conservatoire) said he would be perfectly happy to play my violin in an orchestral setting
Allan,
Does your teacher play in a professional or semi-pro orchestra and would he play on a gliga as his permanent / main instrument, maybe selling off his current prize possession?
QUOTE(shaw52 @ Feb 26 2006, 04:19 AM)
Allan,
Does your teacher play in a professional or semi-pro orchestra and would he play on a gliga as his permanent / main instrument, maybe selling off his current prize possession?
That's asking an awful lot of a £750 violin. We have sold these to freelance professionals - one of them regularly uses his for quartet work where he wants a quieter instrument than the one he uses for orchestral work. For his regular orchestral work he uses a violin that cost him, if I recall correctly, something like £800 - admittedly that would have been the price of it perhaps 25 years ago, but that is still not a vast amount of money and he got a masters in performance using that violin. The idea that violinists cannot succeed unless they can spend 20k on a violin is, frankly, simply not true.
I don't think anyone is going to claim that a Gliga will outplay a violin that costs as much as a new car (well, not since the disappearance of Ladas anyway
)Seriously though, it does raise another point: what is considered to be a professional instrument in the wealthy west will be WAY out of reach of all but state sponsored top soloists in much of the world. How is a professional player in China or Romania or Brazil going to buy an old Italian instrument? We recently sent some goods across to Cuba with a customer who goes out there every couple of years to do some work on early music and to teach in the Conservatoire. He describes a country with a great love of music and a lot of talented musicians, where the musicians even in the Conservatoires are playing on the most appalling instruments. Don't forget that something like 95% of playing is down to the player.
Liz
But the situation in Cuba can't be understood separate from the global economic picture, and the political history of the place - particularly the blockade instituted by the US in response to the Bay of Pigs. That it is still in place, and that the economy of Cuba is still so blighted by it, is an indictment on the US, but making cheap instruments available isn't going to fix that. The economies of the developing world are in the mess they're in as a consequence of histories of colonisation, and exploitation - continuing that exploitation isn't going to sort that problem out.
And realistically, what in Britain is seen as a good quality inexpensive instrument is as much out of the range of most people as a strad. £1000 is a huge amount of money for all but the very privileged. I'll give you an example. In South Africa, five years ago, as an academic, I earned about R70000 a month - the equivalent of less than £7000. Factory workers, teachers, shopworkers, etc - they were all earning a fraction of this. The Chinese instruments we can buy in this country are just not aimed at the ordinary person in the developing world. Exploiting labour to produce cheap instruments isn't going to fix this basic inequity. It isn't going to make music more available, realistically.
And realistically, what in Britain is seen as a good quality inexpensive instrument is as much out of the range of most people as a strad. £1000 is a huge amount of money for all but the very privileged. I'll give you an example. In South Africa, five years ago, as an academic, I earned about R70000 a month - the equivalent of less than £7000. Factory workers, teachers, shopworkers, etc - they were all earning a fraction of this. The Chinese instruments we can buy in this country are just not aimed at the ordinary person in the developing world. Exploiting labour to produce cheap instruments isn't going to fix this basic inequity. It isn't going to make music more available, realistically.
QUOTE(meerkat @ Feb 26 2006, 10:06 AM)
But the situation in Cuba can't be understood separate from the global economic picture, and the political history of the place - particularly the blockade instituted by the US in response to the Bay of Pigs. That it is still in place, and that the economy of Cuba is still so blighted by it, is an indictment on the US, but making cheap instruments available isn't going to fix that.
No doubt you are right, but that was not my point. I was merely making the point gthat what is regarded as a "professional" instrument in the rich west is going to be beyond the wildest dreams of most professional players in the rest of the world.
QUOTE
The economies of the developing world are in the mess they're in as a consequence of histories of colonisation, and exploitation - continuing that exploitation isn't going to sort that problem out.
I don't think most of them have done any better since being "decolonised". Maybe it was a matter of pulling out too soon, maybe it is just corrupt government (look at Nigeria for a quick example)
QUOTE
And realistically, what in Britain is seen as a good quality inexpensive instrument is as much out of the range of most people as a strad. £1000 is a huge amount of money for all but the very privileged.
My point exactly.
Liz
QUOTE
I don't think most of them have done any better since being "decolonised". Maybe it was a matter of pulling out too soon, maybe it is just corrupt government (look at Nigeria for a quick example)
I don't think it's either. It's about recovery. Most of these countries have been independent for maybe 50 years, having had the guts wrenched out of them by colonial powers for a few centuries before. The expectation that they should instantly function in an optimal manner is unfair. And the ongoing exploitation of the labour and resources of many postcolonial nations (a kind of economic colonisation) makes the distinction between colonisation and independence a little artificial.
Corruption in Nigeria is a product of colonisation - it's a postcolonial effect. Most horizontal violence is better understood as a function of oppression than some kind of victim blaming explanation.
QUOTE
My point exactly.
Well, no, I didn't think that was quite the point you were making at all. You seemed to be suggesting (I may be wrong) that the availability of cheap instruments would somehow benefit struggling musicians in 'developing' countries. My point is that they won't - because these 'cheap' instruments are just as unaffordable - largely because of the terrible wages that make it impossible for exploited labour to afford the product they actually make!
QUOTE(elidatrading @ Feb 25 2006, 05:20 PM)
Allan, how are your violin sales going?
Liz
Pretty much as you predicted, Liz. Very slow at first and, when a few of them needed some repairs, they got a very frosty response from French luthiers (largely due, I've come to realise, to the fact that they couldn't compete with the instruments when the found out how much they cost - I never told them I was selling them, only that they were my instruments - they then proceeded to say how poor quality they were, inventing faults that weren't there). Once a few of them made their way to customers and found their way into the hands of teachers, the response started and now they're selling quite well. On the whole the teachers can't believe the quality, especially of the violas. So far my primary trade seems to have been in small violas (which I never actually want to sell because they look so beautiful when they arrive!).
I have been astonished at some of the mark ups from luthiers over here, though. One admitted to me that he was buying chinese violins for around 90 euro, working on them and selling them for 900 - I couldn't believe it!
How's your shoulder?
QUOTE(shaw52 @ Feb 26 2006, 04:19 AM)
Allan,
Does your teacher play in a professional or semi-pro orchestra and would he play on a gliga as his permanent / main instrument, maybe selling off his current prize possession?
I very much doubt it! He owns a really exquisite old instrument which I don't think he would ever part with. You can't really compare the two, his is in another league. What he did say is that he would happily play the gliga in an orchestral setting (he plays professionally and is one of the senior professors, although in viola, at the conservatoire). He did, however, say that he would consider getting a gliga gama 2 as a spare instrument, possibly for use when playing outdoors because he's always terrified that his antique one will be damaged.
I don't think he was suggesting that it was a replacement, more that a gliga would be perfectly suitable for semi-professional / light professional use and certainly more suited than any other 1200 euro violin he has ever seen.
I've just read through this whole discussion - very interesting! The long article was fascinating. So, a couple of questions:
Does anybody think it's best to try and persuade any beginner to spend as much as they can possibly afford on their first instrument? Even though they won't be able to resell it at that price unless it really is in the upper price range (unlikely and not even advisable with a first instrument)?
I do, because only the very best players can get a decent sound out of a bottom-range instrument; beginners will only be put off by the thin tone and will be far more likely to lose heart as a result.
My beginner children usually arrive with instrument already purchased, and 9 times out of 10 it's a Stentor Student 1 or 2 (arrrggghhhhh!!!!!). The poor quality of these instruments plus their size means a good sound is virtually impossible for a beginner. If I got the chance I would recommend any parent of a beginner child to buy a Genial 1 from Elida Trading at £160, which when you consider the price of computers and playstations etc really isn't that much. The problem with Stentors at £60 or whatever is that once parents have seen them in the shops they fell resentful at being asked to spend any more!!! Oh and don't worry, I always hide my real feelings when a child shows me their brand new Stentor 1. I even smile and say 'what a lovely violin!' What else can you do?
(Actually you can do one thing - recommend they get the bridge properly fitted and the pegs changed, because unreconditioned Stentor pegs slip like there's no tomorrow... )
Violinia
Does anybody think it's best to try and persuade any beginner to spend as much as they can possibly afford on their first instrument? Even though they won't be able to resell it at that price unless it really is in the upper price range (unlikely and not even advisable with a first instrument)?
I do, because only the very best players can get a decent sound out of a bottom-range instrument; beginners will only be put off by the thin tone and will be far more likely to lose heart as a result.
My beginner children usually arrive with instrument already purchased, and 9 times out of 10 it's a Stentor Student 1 or 2 (arrrggghhhhh!!!!!). The poor quality of these instruments plus their size means a good sound is virtually impossible for a beginner. If I got the chance I would recommend any parent of a beginner child to buy a Genial 1 from Elida Trading at £160, which when you consider the price of computers and playstations etc really isn't that much. The problem with Stentors at £60 or whatever is that once parents have seen them in the shops they fell resentful at being asked to spend any more!!! Oh and don't worry, I always hide my real feelings when a child shows me their brand new Stentor 1. I even smile and say 'what a lovely violin!' What else can you do?
(Actually you can do one thing - recommend they get the bridge properly fitted and the pegs changed, because unreconditioned Stentor pegs slip like there's no tomorrow... )
Violinia
QUOTE(Violinia @ Feb 26 2006, 12:01 PM)
(Actually you can do one thing - recommend they get the bridge properly fitted and the pegs changed, because unreconditioned Stentor pegs slip like there's no tomorrow... )
Violinia
... invest in a set of dominants!
QUOTE(meerkat @ Feb 26 2006, 10:19 AM)
Well, no, I didn't think that was quite the point you were making at all. You seemed to be suggesting (I may be wrong) that the availability of cheap instruments would somehow benefit struggling musicians in 'developing' countries. My point is that they won't - because these 'cheap' instruments are just as unaffordable - largely because of the terrible wages that make it impossible for exploited labour to afford the product they actually make!
I was only intending to point out that a professional musician is not defined by the cost of his instrument!
But if you want to continue, what DO Chinese / Polish / Romanian / etc professional musicians play if you maintain that they cannot afford any instruments at all?
Liz
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