Thankfully, all my recent piano entrants passed their exams this session. I always take a deep breath just before opening the envelope. The marks weren't particularly high but the main thing is that they all got through. Sometimes, when all the results are on the low side, it makes me think that the examiner this time around may have been a tough marker. Either that, or my pupil's standards are lowering. Who knows? Next time they could all get distinctions I suppose.
I had the following results:-
Grade 2 Merit 120
Grade 3 Pass 118
Grade 3 Pass 110
Grade 8 Pass 104
Anyone else care to share their results?
Gae
Full Version: Exam Results
Congratulations Gae, on the passes! I also take a deep breath when I open the envelope and then quickly make sure there are the correct amount of certificates enclosed before looking at the mark sheets. 
I have a few students who are just not going to make the summer period, which is a shame, they just need an extra month or so, so they wil have to wait til the nov/dec period, however I'm worried they will start falling over their fingers if they know one of the pieces too well.
Still... well done!
Joy
I have a few students who are just not going to make the summer period, which is a shame, they just need an extra month or so, so they wil have to wait til the nov/dec period, however I'm worried they will start falling over their fingers if they know one of the pieces too well.
Still... well done!
Joy
Well done! My results haven't arrived yet. I had a panic attack when I saw the postman earlier....
Congratulations, Gae. 
I'm waiting for the postman, too. He was really early yesterday, so I didn't have time to get nervous, but today is a different matter. Our post didn't arrive until after 2.00 one day last week ...
I'm waiting for the postman, too. He was really early yesterday, so I didn't have time to get nervous, but today is a different matter. Our post didn't arrive until after 2.00 one day last week ...
It's great that they all passed, but to be honest if I received those 4 marks I'd be a little bit unhappy - but perhaps that's just me. Last year a pupil of mine took Grade 4 and got 112 and I was (secretly) quite upset about it. She'd got a good merit at Grades 2 and 3, and as it turned out she'd hardly practised at all and her interest was waning away; she gave up shortly after as it happened.
If I were you I'd look closely at the comments sheets and learn from them. Did you feel they'd practised enough or efficiently enough? Did they enjoy the pieces? Where could they have picked up more marks? Did they lack on the expression side, or were they let down by scales/sightreading/aural etc?
Also, are you going to let the students who just passed go straight onto the next Grade (apart from the Grade 8 student, obviously), or work on what was lacking first?
My Grade 4 pupil initially wanted to go straight on to Grade 5 but I would have made her slow down and catch up in other areas first because I see little point in just rushing from grade to grade unless you're scoring merits and/or distinctions or are in a hurry to reach a certain goal for whatever reason.
Violinia, as usual putting a downer on things.
If I were you I'd look closely at the comments sheets and learn from them. Did you feel they'd practised enough or efficiently enough? Did they enjoy the pieces? Where could they have picked up more marks? Did they lack on the expression side, or were they let down by scales/sightreading/aural etc?
Also, are you going to let the students who just passed go straight onto the next Grade (apart from the Grade 8 student, obviously), or work on what was lacking first?
My Grade 4 pupil initially wanted to go straight on to Grade 5 but I would have made her slow down and catch up in other areas first because I see little point in just rushing from grade to grade unless you're scoring merits and/or distinctions or are in a hurry to reach a certain goal for whatever reason.
Violinia, as usual putting a downer on things.
| QUOTE (Violinia @ Mar 31 2005, 02:53 PM) |
| It's great that they all passed, but to be honest if I received those 4 marks I'd be a little bit unhappy - but perhaps that's just me. |
You have a point there. I would normally be devastated with those marks, but at the end of the day a pass is a pass and for some children thats an achievement in itself! At Christmas, my lowest result was 128 for grade 5, but I am expecting the marks to be much lower this time because several of my candidates have failed the same grade at least once with another teacher, others rushed to get another grade done before they go to university. I will be extremely happy with 100 for some of them!
Sorry I shouldnt really be in this forum but well done anyway. My piano teacher (not showing off or anything) has never had a pupil who has failed but I dont know how many people shes entered though.
No post again until 2.30, and still no results. I now have to go through all this again tomorrow..
Thanks for all the comments.
A few of you have mentioned that you would be upset if your pupils had these low marks and although I would always prefer higher Grades, of course, these days I find it more and more of a struggle to get pupil's motivated into doing enough practice or sometimes even doing exams at all.
I would say that I am in a fairly low economic area where a lot of the youngsters are from working class backgrounds and live in a musical environment of mainly Pop music. Without sounding patronising, I get the impression sometimes that quite a few of the teachers/people here on the forum are in a more privileged environment both economically and musically. These may sound like trite excuses but they are a reality which can affect the overall quality and achievement of pupils. Someone from a financially comfortable and musical background who can practice on a Grand piano, for example and whose immediate family are very musical will surely have more success or be more interested than someone from a poor family, who miss lessons because of financial problems, have to practice on a keyboard or an old out of tune piano with keys missing and have peer pressure from friends saying that Piano lessons are for "cissies" etc etc. These are my experiences over the years. In my circumstances, my immediate family are not remotely interested in music, even to the point where I constantly get teased and picked on quite regularly for playing and teaching Classical Piano. My nephews and niece are currently going through a phase where they constantly tease me and taunt me because of this and the fact that I am not interested in the mindless Pop music they all love and listen to so much. More and more these days, I feel totally isolated and with no support, either morally or financially from anyone, including the Government, in what I am trying to achieve by giving pupils a private music education. Some of my pupils are, in all honesty, probably only doing Piano lessons because their parents want them to and not because of any particular aptitude towards the instrument. Having said that, in all honesty, my enthusiasm for teaching has waned over the years in the realisation that no matter how good a teacher you try to be, you are only as good as your pupil at any particular time. Some people would argue its the other way around but if the pupil does little or no practice or has little or no interest in music, no teacher on the planet could inspire them. In my opinion and experience, it has to come from within the pupil.
Having said all that, I was a bit disappointed with my Grade 8 pupil's results as he worked very hard and at 16, is extremely talented on the Piano.
Gae
A few of you have mentioned that you would be upset if your pupils had these low marks and although I would always prefer higher Grades, of course, these days I find it more and more of a struggle to get pupil's motivated into doing enough practice or sometimes even doing exams at all.
I would say that I am in a fairly low economic area where a lot of the youngsters are from working class backgrounds and live in a musical environment of mainly Pop music. Without sounding patronising, I get the impression sometimes that quite a few of the teachers/people here on the forum are in a more privileged environment both economically and musically. These may sound like trite excuses but they are a reality which can affect the overall quality and achievement of pupils. Someone from a financially comfortable and musical background who can practice on a Grand piano, for example and whose immediate family are very musical will surely have more success or be more interested than someone from a poor family, who miss lessons because of financial problems, have to practice on a keyboard or an old out of tune piano with keys missing and have peer pressure from friends saying that Piano lessons are for "cissies" etc etc. These are my experiences over the years. In my circumstances, my immediate family are not remotely interested in music, even to the point where I constantly get teased and picked on quite regularly for playing and teaching Classical Piano. My nephews and niece are currently going through a phase where they constantly tease me and taunt me because of this and the fact that I am not interested in the mindless Pop music they all love and listen to so much. More and more these days, I feel totally isolated and with no support, either morally or financially from anyone, including the Government, in what I am trying to achieve by giving pupils a private music education. Some of my pupils are, in all honesty, probably only doing Piano lessons because their parents want them to and not because of any particular aptitude towards the instrument. Having said that, in all honesty, my enthusiasm for teaching has waned over the years in the realisation that no matter how good a teacher you try to be, you are only as good as your pupil at any particular time. Some people would argue its the other way around but if the pupil does little or no practice or has little or no interest in music, no teacher on the planet could inspire them. In my opinion and experience, it has to come from within the pupil.
Having said all that, I was a bit disappointed with my Grade 8 pupil's results as he worked very hard and at 16, is extremely talented on the Piano.
Gae
| QUOTE |
| I get the impression sometimes that quite a few of the teachers/people here on the forum are in a more privileged environment both economically and musically. |
Guilty as charged. I live in a privileged area, although having said that not all my pupils are privileged. The ones who do best certainly have the most involved parents, who supervise practice and make sure lessons are rarely missed.
I teach in one quite rough school, and the previous violin peri didn't think it was worth putting many of them through grade exams as a lot of them would be unlikely to do well. I've been working there over a year now and am putting three of them through grade 4, but they are the ones with the supportive parents. In other school they all want to do exams and I can't see most of them doing that well, but what can I do? It'll just take ages till I feel they're ready.....
The previous peri in the first school advised me: don;t put them through exams unless they have supportive families or are supremely talented. She saw little point, and felt the best you could do with them was to enable them to play a few tunes and primarily enjoy music. I think she's probably right.
| QUOTE |
| Having said that, in all honesty, my enthusiasm for teaching has waned over the years in the realisation that no matter how good a teacher you try to be, you are only as good as your pupil at any particular time. Some people would argue its the other way around but if the pupil does little or no practice or has little or no interest in music, no teacher on the planet could inspire them. In my opinion and experience, it has to come from within the pupil. |
Please don't get disillusioned (easy for me to say that after only 18 months as a peri, huh?) You don't know what you're giving them - even if they don't become fantastic musicians. You could be giving them a safe haven in that half hour, or hour, away from everything else in their life that's making them miserable.... it's not something you can necessarily quantify. Don't worry about exam results - don't even make them do exams if they don't want to - there are often better ways to motivate them anyway. One of my best pupils hasn't taken any exams in all her time with me - 3 years - and in that time she has risen from about grade 1 standard to grade 6. Exams would have probably driven her away.
As for your grade 8 pupil - looking at the statistics somebody posted the other day, a distinction or even a merit at grade 8 is quite hard to achieve, so I would just be pleased he passed and can say he's got grade 8 piano. If you were expecting him to do much better then maybe the examiner was in a harsh mood that day - it can and does unfortuntately happen, and there's not a lot you can do when it does.
I've also heard that at grade 8 they only allow a certain percentage of distinctions - even passes - though don't know if this is really true. One of the assistants in my local sheet music shop told me - I guess the AB know the answer to that - or perhaps they like to keep it a secret????
in an ideal world it would be lovely to get merits/ distinctions from all your pupils but of course the real world is very different & i have great admiration for what you're trying to do Gae - giving children from less advantaged background a chance to learn to play the piano/ an interest in classical music.
Actually the one thing exams don't ever measure is how much effort someone has put in to it - 1 of mine had to work enormously hard to get grade 2 piano - she is as i was - fairly incoordinated but she passed (just). I imagine the effort she put in was far more than some others who may have got a merit or distinction fairly easily. Her mark didn't reflect badly on the teacher or the amount of encouragement she got at home and I was very proud of her, as you should be Gae of your pupils' achievements & results.
Actually i scraped a pass in grade 3 piano at the tender age of 10, gave up shortly after, came back to it 3 years ago & got grade 5 with merit after 18 months & grade 6 with distinction in March. Each exam is only a marker in a long journey & I think we should be less preoccupied with 1 exam & look at the bigger picture.
Actually the one thing exams don't ever measure is how much effort someone has put in to it - 1 of mine had to work enormously hard to get grade 2 piano - she is as i was - fairly incoordinated but she passed (just). I imagine the effort she put in was far more than some others who may have got a merit or distinction fairly easily. Her mark didn't reflect badly on the teacher or the amount of encouragement she got at home and I was very proud of her, as you should be Gae of your pupils' achievements & results.
Actually i scraped a pass in grade 3 piano at the tender age of 10, gave up shortly after, came back to it 3 years ago & got grade 5 with merit after 18 months & grade 6 with distinction in March. Each exam is only a marker in a long journey & I think we should be less preoccupied with 1 exam & look at the bigger picture.
| QUOTE |
| my enthusiasm for teaching has waned over the years in the realisation that no matter how good a teacher you try to be, you are only as good as your pupil at any particular time. Some people would argue its the other way around but if the pupil does little or no practice or has little or no interest in music, no teacher on the planet could inspire them. In my opinion and experience, it has to come from within the pupil. |
Gae, I am thinking about your words "you are only as good as your pupil at any particular time".
Yesterday, one of my students' playing was horrible. And he is supposed to be performing in a coming students recital this Sunday. Lesson with him left me thinking that I have been a failure as a teacher. I started thinking of reasons to put the blame on myself: "if I am really such a good teacher, he woulld be able to play better", "If i am a good teacher, he would be practising hard on his own accord", "if I am a good teacher, he would ...".
I suppose the basis for all these negative thoughts is "A good/excellent teacher will be able to inspire his students, to inspire his students to practise of his own accord, create an environment where love of learning occurs." (do i sound too idealistic?)
Of course, I know I have missed out an important part of the equation - parents and the student. But, I kept thinking that a good teacher will be able to make lessons so fun and interesting that students find practising a joy and fun at home and parents are innately supportive...
The only consolation that I have is that my students do enjoy piano lessons and some really do play well - up to my expectations. It's the few who's causing me to be depressed about teaching. I mean, I can't just focus all my attention on the better players and ignore the lousy ones.
Actually, I am thankful that teaching piano is not my livelihood (I am teaching part-time for 4-5 years, with about 15 students currently). Until the day I obtain LRSM/LTCL in performing (and grade 8 in musicianship) and that I am able to inspire uninterested students, I will NOT consider going to teaching full-time.
| QUOTE (Andy-piano-flute @ Mar 31 2005, 08:31 PM) |
| Actually the one thing exams don't ever measure is how much effort someone has put in to it - 1 of mine had to work enormously hard to get grade 2 piano - she is as i was - fairly incoordinated but she passed (just). I imagine the effort she put in was far more than some others who may have got a merit or distinction fairly easily. |
Hi All
I totally agree with this.. as a lot of my students have found playing the piano hard, and to achieve even a pass at grade 1 level is a very big achievement for them. It 's not about the marks at the end of the day, not everyone is capable of a distinction, and that is not down to the teacher, it is the individual, and how much help they have at home (mums and dads into playing music etc).
So Gae, I would never be disappointed with those marks, I would be more than pleased as I'm sure your students tried their best having being taught by a good teacher anyway!
Joy
| QUOTE |
| So Gae, I would never be disappointed with those marks, I would be more than pleased as I'm sure your students tried their best having being taught by a good teacher anyway! |
Joy, thanks.
To be honest I'm not depressed at the marks, although I would prefer them to be higher. I was just trying to explain some of the possible reasons for low marks/motivation to those who said that they would not be happy or "devastated" with these low scores.
Coming back to what Strepito said about encouraging and inspiring pupils, I totally agree. The problem I find is this. It is very difficult to be totally inspirational in just half an hour, when for the rest of the week a pupil is in an environment that is problematic or unsupportive to musical aspirations. Lets face it, on a day to day basis, how many of our pupils are exposed to the kind of music they are learning to play on the piano? Not that many, I would imagine. Most are into Chart music or the same music that their friends listen to. Piano music is very often an alternative to what they would normally listen to. That can also be a good thing, because those who have creative minds look positively towards doing different things. For those affected by peer pressure or musical prejudices that is where the difficulties lie.
One 11 year old pupil of mine who was showing signs of promise packed up playing recently, without any warning, after preparing all of the Grade 2 syllabus work. The reasons? She "hated" (her words) every single piece she played and didn't like any of the other pieces in the book either. She was more interested in Britney Spears, Rap Music, wearing make-up and going out with her friends etc. In the omnipotent environment of Mass Popular Culture that we currently live in, is it no wonder that so many pupils do so poorly when confronted with other alternative realities to that which stares them in the face daily?
Rant over!!
Gae
| QUOTE (Gae @ Apr 1 2005, 01:43 PM) |
| To be honest I'm not depressed at the marks, although I would prefer them to be higher. I was just trying to explain some of the possible reasons for low marks/motivation to those who said that they would not be happy or "devastated" with these low scores. |
Hi Gae
I wasn't saying that to you
, I was suggesting that to the others who thought the marks would have been dissapointing if they had received them.Joy
OK I admit it - I'm very disappointed if a student of mine doesn't get at least a merit in his/her exam, although I would never show it to the student. That's just how I am, and I get round this by not putting them in unless I feel they will do really well. I don't believe in going from grade to grade just passing them, but that's just me and I'm sorry if I offended with anything I said yesterday - I know I can be a bit harsh at times.
I had a pupil give up suddenly last week without any warning; he was 12 and working hard on Grade 2 repertoire. Actually to be honest I felt his playing and interest declined when we focussed on exam stuff - he had really enjoyed jazz, but I had to focus on Grade 2 with him because the others in his group wanted to and logisitics made it impossible for me to do otherwise.
But here's a challenge: what is our job as instrument teachers - to try to get our students to enjoy Grade repertoire which is mainly classical, or to enthuse them with playing music on their chosen instrument?
I wish I had found a way to enable this boy to keep playing jazz and blues.
For me I think the best way is to somehow try and strike a balance between turning them onto music of good quality, and enabling them to play music they find immediately appealing, in a context they also find appealing - otherwise what's going to happen? Many of them will just give up.
The scheme "Creative Factory"
http://www.creativefactory.org.uk/
is a case in point. All these kids come together to make music, and many of them come with strong ideas of what they want to play. The tutors skillfully guide them away from the familair into the territory of the creative and altogether new; they resist at first but eventually realise that what they're learning is of true value. But only because the tutors give them something that they can easily perceive is of great value.
Somewhere and somehow we have to find a balance between giving them something of true value and giving them something they want. It's not an easy balance. But what's the alternative? Losing them one by one because they perceive what we're giving them as being too elitist or inaccessible - unrelatable to their daily lives?
I do think it's a good idea always to try and find out what kind of music they truly love the most, and then spend at least some of the time enabling them to play in that style, both on their own and with each other where at all possible. If we don't do this, there's the danger we'll all end up in an ivory tower, or with a bunch of utterly bored students who all end up giving up before they've really got anywhere. After all they must have seen themselves as musicians at one time otherwise they'd have never taken up their instrument in the first place!
Violinia
| QUOTE |
| One 11 year old pupil of mine who was showing signs of promise packed up playing recently, without any warning, after preparing all of the Grade 2 syllabus work. The reasons? She "hated" (her words) every single piece she played and didn't like any of the other pieces in the book either. She was more interested in Britney Spears, Rap Music, wearing make-up and going out with her friends etc |
I had a pupil give up suddenly last week without any warning; he was 12 and working hard on Grade 2 repertoire. Actually to be honest I felt his playing and interest declined when we focussed on exam stuff - he had really enjoyed jazz, but I had to focus on Grade 2 with him because the others in his group wanted to and logisitics made it impossible for me to do otherwise.
But here's a challenge: what is our job as instrument teachers - to try to get our students to enjoy Grade repertoire which is mainly classical, or to enthuse them with playing music on their chosen instrument?
I wish I had found a way to enable this boy to keep playing jazz and blues.
For me I think the best way is to somehow try and strike a balance between turning them onto music of good quality, and enabling them to play music they find immediately appealing, in a context they also find appealing - otherwise what's going to happen? Many of them will just give up.
The scheme "Creative Factory"
http://www.creativefactory.org.uk/
is a case in point. All these kids come together to make music, and many of them come with strong ideas of what they want to play. The tutors skillfully guide them away from the familair into the territory of the creative and altogether new; they resist at first but eventually realise that what they're learning is of true value. But only because the tutors give them something that they can easily perceive is of great value.
Somewhere and somehow we have to find a balance between giving them something of true value and giving them something they want. It's not an easy balance. But what's the alternative? Losing them one by one because they perceive what we're giving them as being too elitist or inaccessible - unrelatable to their daily lives?
I do think it's a good idea always to try and find out what kind of music they truly love the most, and then spend at least some of the time enabling them to play in that style, both on their own and with each other where at all possible. If we don't do this, there's the danger we'll all end up in an ivory tower, or with a bunch of utterly bored students who all end up giving up before they've really got anywhere. After all they must have seen themselves as musicians at one time otherwise they'd have never taken up their instrument in the first place!
Violinia
| QUOTE |
| I wasn't saying that to you , I was suggesting that to the others who thought the marks would have been dissapointing if they had received them. Joy |
Joy, I know you were. I was referring to what Violinia and Noodle said.
Violinia, I read all the points you made with great interest thanks. I dont go from one Grade to another Grade either. I usually do Progressive books or other pieces in between Exams and also things like finishing off the Sight Reading excercises, starting new scales etc. A lot of my pupils dont do exams but do play Jazz, Blues, Rock and Pop which is fine if thats all they want to do. I cant expect them all to want to be more Academic in their learning. The only problem with that though is, sometimes when a pupil is faced with no pressure from exams, some of them become quite lazy in their practicing and so only reach about Grade 4 standard even after several years of lessons. I sometimes think I should push them a bit harder but too much pressure can put them off totally and make them give up. I always give them the option of doing exams but at the end of the day it is between them and their parents. Problems arise when the parents want them to do exams and they dont. I'm usually stuck in the middle acting as mediator. Some of those pupils who dont want to do traditional Exams have done the LCM Leisure Play Exams in the past though.
As a teacher, one of the most difficult tasks is finding the right balance for each different pupil. As well as educating them musically and giving them a positive experience of learning to play an instrument, which will stay with them for life hopefully, it is also our duty to open their minds up to the wealth of great music out there to discover. Also, it is important to try and inspire and motivate them to try more ambitious and different things too and enjoy playing all types of music that they would never think of trying on their own. There is a whole wealth and History of Music out there to be enjoyed by everyone, both young and old and from whatever background.
Gae
Gae I see you have done a WJEC exam are you teaching in Wales?
| QUOTE (joyjoy @ Apr 1 2005, 02:04 PM) | ||
Hi Gae I wasn't saying that to you , I was suggesting that to the others who thought the marks would have been dissapointing if they had received them.Joy |
As a teacher, I will do whatever I can to get my students to play the piano to the highest standard possible. If its worth doing, its worth doing right. I accept that not every child is talented enough to get a distinction, but there are very few children that I haven't been able to do something with.
I don't necessarily agree that background has that much to do with it. I find that children from working class backgrounds are made to practice more because their parents work harder and the cost of lessons is greater to them than those children who have two parents working full time as hospital consultants/surgeons. It makes little or no difference whether or not the parents are musical, in fact I prefer them not to be so they don't interfere. I insist on my students practising on a piano and not a keyboard for the reasons posted under another topic. Its true that many children are only learning to play an instrument because their parents want them to. Its my experience that children who pass exams with a high merit or distinction can't wait to do another exam, and another, to the point that they do every grade in theory, piano, piano duet, and now jazz and even musicianship, even though because of the cost alone I give them the option of skipping a grade here and there.
Having said all that, I know that the results which are due are not going to be brilliant and I will be lucky if they have all passed. Some of the candidates had already failed their exams at least once with their last teacher are causing some concern. It was a struggle to eliminate bad teaching, wrong fingering/rhythms and incorrect use of the pedal. I have done what I could and they have done their best, but wonder if it is enough. Having worked with them I realise that it was the previous teachers fault they failed exams, not theirs and I think that is so unfair. I have been teaching three children this year who have failed pre-grade 1 exams because they were taught by someone who wasn't much further on than they were.
Given that the average mark for practical exams is 116 (I think) my average is considerably higher than that and yes I would be devastated by low results especially if like Gae a talented pianist didn't do as well as I thought he would in grade 8.
| QUOTE |
| Gae I see you have done a WJEC exam are you teaching in Wales? |
Thats right Trinity. I teach privately in North Wales. Are you in Wales too?
Gae
| QUOTE (musicbox @ Mar 31 2005, 04:40 PM) |
| Sorry I shouldnt really be in this forum but well done anyway. My piano teacher (not showing off or anything) has never had a pupil who has failed but I dont know how many people shes entered though. |
My piano teacher is even worse...
none of her students gets fail, pass or merit....
she'll only enter us if she thinks we're at the standard of distinction...
really harsh....
she like made us to do 3 hours + practise on piano each day for 3 months before our exams....
really harsh...
| QUOTE (pianist_1210 @ Apr 2 2005, 08:29 AM) |
| My piano teacher is even worse... none of her students gets fail, pass or merit.... she'll only enter us if she thinks we're at the standard of distinction... really harsh.... she like made us to do 3 hours + practise on piano each day for 3 months before our exams.... really harsh... |
Surely your teacher is only trying to get you to do your best and learn to play as well as possible. Whats the point of half learning something when you could learn it properly. Sounds to me like you have a good teacher. What would you prefer - passing with 101 or 131?
Yes, I thought so!
Noodle has exprssed my feelings entirely. And there was me thinking I'm somehow mean in not letting my students take an exam until I can be pretty sure they get at least a merit.
Violinia
Violinia
| QUOTE (Gae @ Mar 31 2005, 06:52 PM) |
| Having said all that, I was a bit disappointed with my Grade 8 pupil's results as he worked very hard and at 16, is extremely talented on the Piano. |
Something here doesn't seem to make sense. I would be very concerned about a talented grade 8 student scraping a pass. My talented grade 7 student got 139. According to your signature, you have grade 7 piano yet you are teaching a grade 8 student. I find this hard to understand.
Violinia, children lose interest if they don't do well in exams. Considering the cost of exams now not to mention lessons, books etc, parents expect to get value for money, and as I've said before, if its worth doing, its worth doing right!
I feel that some of you don't appreciate that for some children their best is going to be a pass- hopefully a good pass - but not a merit or distinction, in the same way that in written exams some children will get As & others (no matter how hard they have worked) are not capable of more than a D,C or B.
So the ones that aren't going to get a merit - do you hold them back on babyish ( to their mind) pieces? Do you keep at exam pieces till they're thoroughly sick of them? Or what? Is it better to get a pass & have had the chance to play a wide range of music or a distinction because you've spent all your time on 3 exam pieces?
Why should a child who works hard but just can't get it enough together to get those higher grades be deprived of the opportunity to try performing in an exam situation. You may not be proud of only a pass but they & their parents may be delighted.
I tell my children in any number of situations " You can only do your best & whatever that is we are proud of you". I'm sure schools would love to be able to say that all their pupils get top marks eg in GCSEs -but if they're only entering the ones they know can get As then they're distorting their results - aren't they?
I think music teachers appear to be divided in to 2 worlds - the real one, and an ideal one & there seems not to be any overlap
Oh & btw my piano teacher got a merit in her grade 8 piano taught from grade 5 onwards by a trumpet teacher who actually didn't play the piano at all.
So the ones that aren't going to get a merit - do you hold them back on babyish ( to their mind) pieces? Do you keep at exam pieces till they're thoroughly sick of them? Or what? Is it better to get a pass & have had the chance to play a wide range of music or a distinction because you've spent all your time on 3 exam pieces?
Why should a child who works hard but just can't get it enough together to get those higher grades be deprived of the opportunity to try performing in an exam situation. You may not be proud of only a pass but they & their parents may be delighted.
I tell my children in any number of situations " You can only do your best & whatever that is we are proud of you". I'm sure schools would love to be able to say that all their pupils get top marks eg in GCSEs -but if they're only entering the ones they know can get As then they're distorting their results - aren't they?
I think music teachers appear to be divided in to 2 worlds - the real one, and an ideal one & there seems not to be any overlap
Oh & btw my piano teacher got a merit in her grade 8 piano taught from grade 5 onwards by a trumpet teacher who actually didn't play the piano at all.
| QUOTE (Andy-piano-flute @ Apr 2 2005, 10:39 AM) |
| I feel that some of you don't appreciate that for some children their best is going to be a pass- hopefully a good pass - but not a merit or distinction Do you keep at exam pieces till they're thoroughly sick of them? Or what? Is it better to get a pass & have had the chance to play a wide range of music or a distinction because you've spent all your time on 3 exam pieces? I think music teachers appear to be divided in to 2 worlds - the real one, and an ideal one & there seems not to be any overlap |
I expect all children to be able to achieve the result they are capable of. I know not all children will still be getting distinctions at grade 6 and above, but I do know how to get the best out of each student. Some children take a little longer to get there than others I admit but they are pleased when they do better than scrape a pass. All my students play lots of pieces of different styles and characters as well as their exam pieces so they do not spend their time exclusively on exam work as you seem to think. Its better for the child to be well taught, get a merit/distinction and learn a wide range of repertoire pieces too. Why do you think it has to be one or the other?? Whats the point of half learning something? It should be done correctly. Read the criteria for marking in These Music Exams to see what is needed to scrape a pass.
Most of the time its not the childs fault but nobody is going to tell me that some children are incapable of learning correct/good fingering, correct notes etc. Whatsthe point of learning to do something if you aren't going to do it right?
Academic studies and practical exams aren't the same thing. Children do vary in the amount of knowledge they can accumulate and understand, but practical exams are different. It is a matter for repeating over and over until they get a particular bit right - whether its a rhythmic pattern or a finger pattern.
I get the impression that you are trying to devalue the meaning of a pass. Yes i do know the criteria & a pass is a pass. You & I both know that some fail because they're not up as far as a pass standard. A pass does actually have meaning & value. Teachers who send out unconscious messages that passes are disappointing need to rethink their attitude. I maybe wouldn't have given up playing as a child if i hadn't been made to think that my inability to perform under exam situations & so ONLY getting passes was in some way a failure on my part.
In my part of the world going to a senior school having done some grades is really important because if your next school has too many children especially for violin lessons they use the criteria of have you done exams - whether it's a pass or a distinction doesn't come in to it. Playing at grade ? standard without actually having done the exam cos your teacher didn't want you to come out with less than a merit is worthless & there ends one child's musical aspirations.
In my part of the world going to a senior school having done some grades is really important because if your next school has too many children especially for violin lessons they use the criteria of have you done exams - whether it's a pass or a distinction doesn't come in to it. Playing at grade ? standard without actually having done the exam cos your teacher didn't want you to come out with less than a merit is worthless & there ends one child's musical aspirations.
Oh & if it's simply a matter of repetition in learning music how come
1. my scales aren't better than they are
2. monkeys aren't taught to play the piano.
1. my scales aren't better than they are
2. monkeys aren't taught to play the piano.
I agree with Andy_piano_flute
Take me as an example, i get taught the correct notes, i can read music, i can recognise rhythms, have a good teacher who's other pupils i know get merits/distinctions. I practise a lot, more than a lot of children yet I have onlt got a merit once. What does that mean? That I should give up, becasue no-one thinks I am any good whatsoever as I do not get high marks in exams?
Sometimes people's comments on here really make me think twice about doing music. I love it so much and that is what's keeping me going. Do anyone of you know how it feels to "only get a pass" and coming on here delighted only to find people saying thats not good enough. I was really happy with my grade 6 mark of 116. But i was conscious about telling everyone on here, I was worried about the sort of reaction I'd get to "only getting a 116". People's attitude to exam marks has made me think twice about annoucing my results on here in future. I wil tell certain people who I know wil be happy for me and proud of me, but I think from now on I'll keep my mouth shut, because obviously I am not a good musician because I only get passes
oh and by the way Gae- congratulations, I for one would be happy
Take me as an example, i get taught the correct notes, i can read music, i can recognise rhythms, have a good teacher who's other pupils i know get merits/distinctions. I practise a lot, more than a lot of children yet I have onlt got a merit once. What does that mean? That I should give up, becasue no-one thinks I am any good whatsoever as I do not get high marks in exams?
Sometimes people's comments on here really make me think twice about doing music. I love it so much and that is what's keeping me going. Do anyone of you know how it feels to "only get a pass" and coming on here delighted only to find people saying thats not good enough. I was really happy with my grade 6 mark of 116. But i was conscious about telling everyone on here, I was worried about the sort of reaction I'd get to "only getting a 116". People's attitude to exam marks has made me think twice about annoucing my results on here in future. I wil tell certain people who I know wil be happy for me and proud of me, but I think from now on I'll keep my mouth shut, because obviously I am not a good musician because I only get passes
oh and by the way Gae- congratulations, I for one would be happy
And also no-one use the excuse that I learn a lot of instruments, because I still get "only passes" when I;ve taken 1 exam in a session.
Nice to see some decent discussions for a change!!
Violinia, I dont agree at all with your attitude of only putting in pupils who you feel will only gain a distinction. Why? What is the point of having a marking scheme of Pass/Merit and Distinction? If your approach is the best one then surely the ABRSM would only have a Distinction pass? That is elitism in my opinion and can have detrimental effects on those struggling pupils especially those who are keen to learn but find it difficult. If you are telling pupils that they are not good enough for exams isn't that quite demoralising for a child? I'm quite shocked to be honest. Music shouldn't be of a purely competitive nature surely? Music is excellent for not only improving the mind but also a way for a person to mature and develop as a human being as well as musician. I strongly believe that playing beautiful music is good for the soul and makes you a better human being and that is why I have no prejudism in who I allow to try exam pieces and enter for the exam. If they want to try it then they will be judged on their own merits and they will have had the chance to play and discover new and more rewarding/challenging music than maybe they would normally play if they weren't doing the pre-set exams. I agree totally with Andy-Pandy sorry Piano-Flute
on the subject!
Gae
Violinia, I dont agree at all with your attitude of only putting in pupils who you feel will only gain a distinction. Why? What is the point of having a marking scheme of Pass/Merit and Distinction? If your approach is the best one then surely the ABRSM would only have a Distinction pass? That is elitism in my opinion and can have detrimental effects on those struggling pupils especially those who are keen to learn but find it difficult. If you are telling pupils that they are not good enough for exams isn't that quite demoralising for a child? I'm quite shocked to be honest. Music shouldn't be of a purely competitive nature surely? Music is excellent for not only improving the mind but also a way for a person to mature and develop as a human being as well as musician. I strongly believe that playing beautiful music is good for the soul and makes you a better human being and that is why I have no prejudism in who I allow to try exam pieces and enter for the exam. If they want to try it then they will be judged on their own merits and they will have had the chance to play and discover new and more rewarding/challenging music than maybe they would normally play if they weren't doing the pre-set exams. I agree totally with Andy-Pandy sorry Piano-Flute
on the subject! Gae
also like Andypianoflute says if its all about repetition then why do some things in my practise like scales never get better.
why do my pieces never improve once i get them to a certain stage, i still practise them but they don't get any better.
why when i do aural practice do I not improve
I agree with Gae in that what is the point in having a pass/merit mark scheme
What would you do with a pupil (if u had one) who loved music so much, wanted to teach it,but just couldnt manage to get merits/distinctions in exams? in other words someone in the same situation as me. What would you do? tell them to give up becuase they are not good enough?
why do my pieces never improve once i get them to a certain stage, i still practise them but they don't get any better.
why when i do aural practice do I not improve
I agree with Gae in that what is the point in having a pass/merit mark scheme
What would you do with a pupil (if u had one) who loved music so much, wanted to teach it,but just couldnt manage to get merits/distinctions in exams? in other words someone in the same situation as me. What would you do? tell them to give up becuase they are not good enough?
Believe me, Nat, it is NOT the people with the highest marks who make the best teachers. You will be a great teacher because you are having to work hard at something you LOVE. Too many people get hung up about blasted results. All an examination does is measure that which is easily measurable - ie standard, not ACHIEVEMENT which is what it is all about. If someone has worked their backside off and enjoyed it to get 100 does that make it any less an achievement? Absolutely not.
| QUOTE (Bagpuss @ Apr 2 2005, 02:01 PM) |
| Believe me, Nat, it is NOT the people with the highest marks who make the best teachers. You will be a great teacher because you are having to work hard at something you LOVE. Too many people get hung up about blasted results. All an examination does is measure that which is easily measurable - ie standard, not ACHIEVEMENT which is what it is all about. If someone has worked their backside off and enjoyed it to get 100 does that make it any less an achievement? Absolutely not. |
Here here.
| QUOTE (Bagpuss @ Apr 2 2005, 02:01 PM) |
| If someone has worked their backside off and enjoyed it to get 100 does that make it any less an achievement? Absolutely not. |
Woo. Go Bagpuss...
You do feel a bit rubbish coming on here with your results, after reading some peoples views on results...
| QUOTE (Subatomic_Star @ Apr 2 2005, 02:34 PM) |
| You do feel a bit rubbish coming on here with your results, after reading some peoples views on results... |
agreed.
and yes ok we don't have to tell everyone, and no we don't have to come on here, but most of the time this is a good place to come. with the exception of 3 times a year- exam time.
we shouldn't be feeling rubbish and embarrased about our results we should celebrate them. instead we usually get about 15 or so replies saying congratulations and then BANG come back to down to earth, we get made to feel like our pass isnt good enough.
| QUOTE |
| If someone has worked their backside off and enjoyed it to get 100 does that make it any less an achievement? Absolutely not. |
I agree, but it seems like it is a less of an achievement the way some attitudes are here.
P.S i do apologise for 'gate crashing the teachers forum, but i couldnt just sit there reading this without saying something
i agree with nat on the points she made. also, its not the number of points u get....its what it means to the person. Im the kind of person who usually does well in exams...ive taken grades 1 to 7, (i only did a mock for grade 6 and probably would have failed if i had taken a proper exam) and only in grade 4 i got below a merit. But i think the important thing is that grade exams arent a measure of someones talent or overall skill at piano. Some people have off days, and some people just arent suited to exams. Im sure there are lots of extremely talented musicians, who dont get high exam results purely because maybe the style of exams isnt theyre preferred kind of study. From an exam of 10-20 mins, an examiner cannot precisely see how much the exam means, how much work they put in, all they can do is mark the performance...not how good a player the student is.
sorry 2 interrupt the teachers forum (being 13 yrs old!) but i had 2 add something 2 the thread.
sorry 2 interrupt the teachers forum (being 13 yrs old!) but i had 2 add something 2 the thread.
Sorry but I beg to differ. I don't think students should be particularly pleased with themselves (or the examiner if he/she was just grumpy that day) for getting a mere pass, and it's "grade exam conditioning" that makes people think it is.
If a student of mine gets a mere pass and then wants to rush onto the next grade, where they get a mere pass again because they're rushing too fast, am I really doing them any favours? Really?
I believe there's far too much importance laid on exams, and far too many people going around saying "she's grade 4 violin" or whatever - which means virtually nothing unless the actual mark is known. A player who scores 100 at grade 4 is at a very different standard to a player who scores 130+, but that doesn't matter a jot to the grade-hound, chasing grades as if there's no tomorrow, learning nothing from the comments sheets if they merely rush on to the next grade, and the next, and the next, without improving their marks.
To me if you score a basic pass it should mean pause for thought - unless you have to reach a high grade by a certain time, in which case you have no choice.
If you score two or more basic passes in a row, then your playing needs attention. Surely giving your playing the attention it needs, and learning to play more musically before attempting another grade - is of more intrinsic value, and will give you more joy in playing in the long run, than rushing mindlessly (and unmusically) from grade to grade???
Rushing from grade to grade without paying due attention to the musicality of one's playing is to treat music like a goal-orientated sport - which is about as far from music as you can possibly imagine.
OK, so the kid can go "I'm grade 4 whatever", but they play out of tune, or out of time, with little or no expression. Where is the real value in that? When the time, instead of cramming one exam a year, could be spent exploring the student's musical tastes and preferences, trying varied styles, working on expression, different aspects of technique?
I've talked here before about the 12-year-old who came to me in a thoroughly jaded state. She'd done grade 1 and was being pushed towards grade 2. She played with little expression or musicality, and disliked 2 of her grade pieces. She had virtually lost interest in playing at all.
The first thing we did was to explore her musical tastes; it turned out she had a penchant for folk. We bought a book of folk pieces and started working on those, later recording them with me on guitar. She gave the tape to everybody in her family for Christmas. Her technique steadily improved along the way. Then I introduced her to jazz, which she decided she liked, so I taught her to improvise, which improved her ear out of all recognition. She learnt to play in several different genres of jazz; then she discovered Klezmer so I taught her how to play that too. Her technique got better and better, and her enthusiasms for these new styles were inspiring her to practise for up to 2 hours a day - something she'd never contemplated doing before.
She got into listening to lots of music, discovering ambient styles; she'd bring me her favourite CD's and we'd spend lessons working out ways to improvise along to them. She developed a passion for Ragtime so I found her a Ragtime book and CD.
She joined the local "Creative Factory" scheme and is now a "young apprentice" on the scheme and one of their leading lights. She went to London (Guildhall School) with them on a composition/performance trip, and then on to Birmingham where she played at the Symphony Hall - and on Radio 3!!!
She's 15 now and doing music at GCSE (which I encouraged her to do). For her recital she chose a classical piece, has decided she does enjoy classical after all (because she's now finding quite difficult pieces easy to tackle apart from anything else), so the next thing we're going to do is the Bach Double Violin Concerto, followed by Grade 6.
It's been a very enjoyable journey with her, and I'm so glad I steered her away from doing grade after grade and through this more eclectic route instead. She's now an excellent player despite not doing any exams since grade 1, now feels ready to tackle Grade 6, and says she wants to keep playing violin all her life. What more can you hope for than that?
And would I have done her a service by persuading her to take grade after grade?
I appreciate not all students are going to turn out like her, and some are actually motivated by exams, but to be honest whenever I find a pupil's main motivation is exams I try to steeer them away from that and towards a love of music for its own sake - whether this gets them playing James Bond or Lord Of the Rings tunes (one pupil, a boy), or the Aladdin theme. Whatever turns them on!!! And then, as their playing quietly improves, you can start introducing them to repertoire they never imagined they'd enjoy.
Grades have their place but they must never be the be-all and end-all. The trouble with racing through grades at a mediocre standard means they do become the be-all because it takes all the time available just to scrape through each grade.
Where's the lasting value in that?
If passing grades means a lot to a student, it's because of "grade-exam-conditioning" - something to avoid and condition people out of at all costs. There are so many better ways to motivate musicians.
Violinia
If a student of mine gets a mere pass and then wants to rush onto the next grade, where they get a mere pass again because they're rushing too fast, am I really doing them any favours? Really?
I believe there's far too much importance laid on exams, and far too many people going around saying "she's grade 4 violin" or whatever - which means virtually nothing unless the actual mark is known. A player who scores 100 at grade 4 is at a very different standard to a player who scores 130+, but that doesn't matter a jot to the grade-hound, chasing grades as if there's no tomorrow, learning nothing from the comments sheets if they merely rush on to the next grade, and the next, and the next, without improving their marks.
To me if you score a basic pass it should mean pause for thought - unless you have to reach a high grade by a certain time, in which case you have no choice.
If you score two or more basic passes in a row, then your playing needs attention. Surely giving your playing the attention it needs, and learning to play more musically before attempting another grade - is of more intrinsic value, and will give you more joy in playing in the long run, than rushing mindlessly (and unmusically) from grade to grade???
Rushing from grade to grade without paying due attention to the musicality of one's playing is to treat music like a goal-orientated sport - which is about as far from music as you can possibly imagine.
OK, so the kid can go "I'm grade 4 whatever", but they play out of tune, or out of time, with little or no expression. Where is the real value in that? When the time, instead of cramming one exam a year, could be spent exploring the student's musical tastes and preferences, trying varied styles, working on expression, different aspects of technique?
I've talked here before about the 12-year-old who came to me in a thoroughly jaded state. She'd done grade 1 and was being pushed towards grade 2. She played with little expression or musicality, and disliked 2 of her grade pieces. She had virtually lost interest in playing at all.
The first thing we did was to explore her musical tastes; it turned out she had a penchant for folk. We bought a book of folk pieces and started working on those, later recording them with me on guitar. She gave the tape to everybody in her family for Christmas. Her technique steadily improved along the way. Then I introduced her to jazz, which she decided she liked, so I taught her to improvise, which improved her ear out of all recognition. She learnt to play in several different genres of jazz; then she discovered Klezmer so I taught her how to play that too. Her technique got better and better, and her enthusiasms for these new styles were inspiring her to practise for up to 2 hours a day - something she'd never contemplated doing before.
She got into listening to lots of music, discovering ambient styles; she'd bring me her favourite CD's and we'd spend lessons working out ways to improvise along to them. She developed a passion for Ragtime so I found her a Ragtime book and CD.
She joined the local "Creative Factory" scheme and is now a "young apprentice" on the scheme and one of their leading lights. She went to London (Guildhall School) with them on a composition/performance trip, and then on to Birmingham where she played at the Symphony Hall - and on Radio 3!!!
She's 15 now and doing music at GCSE (which I encouraged her to do). For her recital she chose a classical piece, has decided she does enjoy classical after all (because she's now finding quite difficult pieces easy to tackle apart from anything else), so the next thing we're going to do is the Bach Double Violin Concerto, followed by Grade 6.
It's been a very enjoyable journey with her, and I'm so glad I steered her away from doing grade after grade and through this more eclectic route instead. She's now an excellent player despite not doing any exams since grade 1, now feels ready to tackle Grade 6, and says she wants to keep playing violin all her life. What more can you hope for than that?
And would I have done her a service by persuading her to take grade after grade?
I appreciate not all students are going to turn out like her, and some are actually motivated by exams, but to be honest whenever I find a pupil's main motivation is exams I try to steeer them away from that and towards a love of music for its own sake - whether this gets them playing James Bond or Lord Of the Rings tunes (one pupil, a boy), or the Aladdin theme. Whatever turns them on!!! And then, as their playing quietly improves, you can start introducing them to repertoire they never imagined they'd enjoy.
Grades have their place but they must never be the be-all and end-all. The trouble with racing through grades at a mediocre standard means they do become the be-all because it takes all the time available just to scrape through each grade.
Where's the lasting value in that?
| QUOTE |
| its not the number of points u get....its what it means to the person |
If passing grades means a lot to a student, it's because of "grade-exam-conditioning" - something to avoid and condition people out of at all costs. There are so many better ways to motivate musicians.
Violinia
Nat I am not getting at you! I think the results you get are great and to pass three successive grades in three successive terms is a fantastic achievement. I know you are under pressure to do exams quickly like this because you have to be at a certain standard by the end of the year. The point I am trying to make is that by doing grade 6 in say 6 months instead of three you would do even better because you wouldn't have to take any short cuts.I am certain you I appreciate how hard it is to learn so many instruments (I learnt 5 when I was your age and they were all grade 5 and above) and it gets more difficult as the grades get higher. You must definitely NOT give up. 116 is an average mark and if you can achieve that in a few months, think of what you would get if you were doing your exams in normal circumstances. Oh and yes, I do know what its like to get a pass, - I didn't always get distinction.
Bagpuss, yes - it may not be the people with the highest marks who make the best teachers, but the teachers need to be well taught themselves or they will only be passing bad habits on to their pupils. As you have probably read elsewhere, I have several students who have failed exams at least once with other teachers. It is demoralising because they were simply doing what their teacher has taught them. I know some of their teachers and their highest musical achievement is a grade 3 exam so they have less ability/talent than the average GCSE student.
Violinia and I aren't telling students they aren't good enough for exams. We are just making sure they are well enough prepared to do their best in the exam - whats wrong with that? All my students do exams, regardless of their ability, but because they do well they want to continue.
Finally, practice will improve anything - scales fingering... its just a matter of knowing how to practice properly and having the determination to get it right. In one one of my schools I have a student who failed grade 7 twice with another teacher. She got 8/21 last June for scales and I am surprised she got as much as that. Before Easter she was able to play every one of the scales and arpeggios perfectly without a single mistake.
Bagpuss, yes - it may not be the people with the highest marks who make the best teachers, but the teachers need to be well taught themselves or they will only be passing bad habits on to their pupils. As you have probably read elsewhere, I have several students who have failed exams at least once with other teachers. It is demoralising because they were simply doing what their teacher has taught them. I know some of their teachers and their highest musical achievement is a grade 3 exam so they have less ability/talent than the average GCSE student.
Violinia and I aren't telling students they aren't good enough for exams. We are just making sure they are well enough prepared to do their best in the exam - whats wrong with that? All my students do exams, regardless of their ability, but because they do well they want to continue.
Finally, practice will improve anything - scales fingering... its just a matter of knowing how to practice properly and having the determination to get it right. In one one of my schools I have a student who failed grade 7 twice with another teacher. She got 8/21 last June for scales and I am surprised she got as much as that. Before Easter she was able to play every one of the scales and arpeggios perfectly without a single mistake.
| QUOTE (noodle @ Apr 2 2005, 04:27 PM) |
| Nat I am not getting at you! |
I know you are not getting at me in particular, I was just using myself as an example.
| QUOTE |
| The point I am trying to make is that by doing grade 6 in say 6 months instead of three you would do even better because you wouldn't have to take any short cuts |
I don't actually think my pieces could get any better.....well they could obviously, but for about a month running up to the exam they weren't really getting anywhere, just staying at the same level. That's what happens with me, epsecially pieces. It's not for lack of practice either, I did lots of practice, worked on things my teacher told me, but I didn't feel they were getting any better. I mentioned this before. I will never get a distinction in an exam, I'm just not talented in that way, I believe you do have to have some sort of 'spark' to get a really good mark. You may disagree, but that's how I see it.
| QUOTE |
| Finally, practice will improve anything - scales fingering... its just a matter of knowing how to practice properly and having the determination to get it right. |
I used to believe that, I don't really anymore. Because no matter how much i practice scales and arpeggios and the like they still don't get any better. Well done to that student for improving her scales though.
| QUOTE |
| Oh and yes, I do know what its like to get a pass, - I didn't always get distinction. |
Good because maybe you might understand how it feels to constantly get passes and people not being happy with it, and telling you it's not a good mark, then you feel like utter ######. Despite what people have said, I am happy with a pass even if I've been working on things for a while, because I know I how I feel about exams and I know what my playing is like.
| QUOTE |
| When the time, instead of cramming one exam a year, could be spent exploring the student's musical tastes and preferences, trying varied styles, working on expression, different aspects of technique? |
Ok, people do need to take their time to work on other stuff. But in my case, I do try different styles, and play lots of other repertoire. As for expression, doing the grades quickly has not stopped me from working on expression. My grade 4 piano examiner commented about 3 times about my 'expressive' playing. And I don't think I would have got 26 for one of my pieces at grade 6 without expression.
Sorry that I keep referring to myself but I think I am quite a good example.
Can I just add a point in the discussion. I am someone that gets really nervous. I may be of distinction standard for a particular exam, however in an exam situation fall apart and shake (very disasterous in my violin exams because then my bow bounces!).
I have been predicted distinctions in all violin exams and never got one due to nerves on the day. Are you saying, just because I only got a pass or merit on one performance that I couldn't go straight onto the next exam?
Some children just don't do well under pressure, however want to do exams to say to others what standard they are and have something to work towards. I would never deny a child the opportunity to do an exam just because they won't get a distinction. (However I wouldn't enter them if I didn't think they'd pass either).
I have been predicted distinctions in all violin exams and never got one due to nerves on the day. Are you saying, just because I only got a pass or merit on one performance that I couldn't go straight onto the next exam?
Some children just don't do well under pressure, however want to do exams to say to others what standard they are and have something to work towards. I would never deny a child the opportunity to do an exam just because they won't get a distinction. (However I wouldn't enter them if I didn't think they'd pass either).
well said, Apassionata. But i'm sure violinia will have a suitable answer to that! Probably something like "well don't do exams then" but that doesn't help eg Nat who desperately wants to teach.
1 of my children plays violin in a Saturday area orchestra & plays & sightreads as well as the rest & was put in to that orchestra on the recommendation of a teacher from last year's music summer school. But she hasn't done as high a grade as the rest of them & is really unhappy & embarassed about that. Grades aren't the be-all & end-all but in the real world (just like any other exams) they ARE important to a lot of children.
Oh, & the 12y.o. who obviously flourished with your teaching method - out of interest did she share a 20min lesson with 3 others in the equivalent of a school broom cupboard?
1 of my children plays violin in a Saturday area orchestra & plays & sightreads as well as the rest & was put in to that orchestra on the recommendation of a teacher from last year's music summer school. But she hasn't done as high a grade as the rest of them & is really unhappy & embarassed about that. Grades aren't the be-all & end-all but in the real world (just like any other exams) they ARE important to a lot of children.
Oh, & the 12y.o. who obviously flourished with your teaching method - out of interest did she share a 20min lesson with 3 others in the equivalent of a school broom cupboard?
| QUOTE |
| no matter how much i practice scales and arpeggios and the like they still don't get any better. |
| QUOTE |
| I don't actually think my pieces could get any better.....well they could obviously, but for about a month running up to the exam they weren't really getting anywhere, just staying at the same level. |
If you get to this stage it may mean that you need, somehow, to find a DIFFERENT way to practice...... if what you are doing isn't working at a given time then this may be a solution to explore.
Sometimes progress is much slower and you seem to get stuck in a rut
.Sometimes it just means that you have actually gone as far as you are able at that time and you need something else to fill in the gap before you can go further.
Or it can even be over working things....
| QUOTE (sbhoa @ Apr 2 2005, 07:47 PM) |
| If you get to this stage it may mean that you need, somehow, to find a DIFFERENT way to practice...... if what you are doing isn't working at a given time then this may be a solution to explore. |
This is how it gets with every piece, I never score high than 24 for exam pieces, with the exception of one at grade 6 which i got 26-i dont know my mark for the other 2-
| QUOTE |
| I don't think students should be particularly pleased with themselves (or the examiner if he/she was just grumpy that day) for getting a mere pass |
I have to disagree with you Violinia, what if they really did try their hardest that day, and they got a pass, are you implying that they should be disappointed in themselves?
Perhaps if they were obviously able to get a higher mark, and they never practised enough etc. then maybe they should be disappointed in themselves, but not if they tryed hard and put in a lot of effort. I, personally, would feel very offended if I recieved a pass and you said that to me, and I'm quite sure I'm not the only one.
What if that students musical ability only extended so far that all they could get was a pass, are you saying they should be ashamed that they never recieved a merit or distinction? That they shoud perhaps refrain from taking exams? They should be proud if they recieved a pass, as it is an acheivement for them and for anyone taking exams.
i totally agree with hulk. Violinia, its true, there are reasons why people get not so high marks in exams, and it doesnt neccesarrily mean that they are lazy or ill-disciplined. It can be because they are not suited to the pressure of an exam, but that may not apply to the pressure of recitals.
Also, maybe the student just isnt musical. I mean, he could practice hours on end on the best piano in the world, have the best teacher and the most supportive parents, but he might just not have any musicality in him.
I am looking forward to your reply, Violinia
Also, maybe the student just isnt musical. I mean, he could practice hours on end on the best piano in the world, have the best teacher and the most supportive parents, but he might just not have any musicality in him.
I am looking forward to your reply, Violinia
Wow, this has really opened up a can of worms and so many issues to debate.
Explain this:-
When I did my exams, many years ago, one year I got a pass, the next a merit, another year a distinction etc etc....in no particular order! Were my results better one year because I was improving as a player, or because I didn't suffer from nerves on that particular day, or maybe because the pieces that I played in one grade were more suited to my technique, or I enjoyed playing them more (which showed in my performance) or perhaps even the Examiner was a more generous marker than the previous ones? See how complicated it gets?
Some people do exams because they know it is one of, if not, "the" best ways to progress and challenge yourself on an instrument. As a yardstick for progress Exams are a tried and tested method, but they are by no means an exact science. Just because I get a pass one year doesn't mean I might not get a distinction next time does it? To deny a pupil the right to try the next grade, just because they got through an exam with just a pass, is in my opinion, emphatically wrong. Of course, work on their playing in between grades, give them other material and excercises to do etc, but please dont stop them moving on to the next level if they want to.
I had a pupil who failed her exam last year. The reason? Purely nerves!! Her mother said she played her pieces terribly on the day even though she was fine with them at home. After some work on her playing and building up her confidence, she is now going to try the next grade. Good for her!! I hope she overcomes her nerves one day and passes with a distinction. She has the ability in her, I know she has, but just because she had a bad time with one grade doesn't mean I'm going to tell her she's not good enough. Totally the opposite in fact. She's brushed herself down, got back on the horse and is going to try again!
Gae
Explain this:-
When I did my exams, many years ago, one year I got a pass, the next a merit, another year a distinction etc etc....in no particular order! Were my results better one year because I was improving as a player, or because I didn't suffer from nerves on that particular day, or maybe because the pieces that I played in one grade were more suited to my technique, or I enjoyed playing them more (which showed in my performance) or perhaps even the Examiner was a more generous marker than the previous ones? See how complicated it gets?
Some people do exams because they know it is one of, if not, "the" best ways to progress and challenge yourself on an instrument. As a yardstick for progress Exams are a tried and tested method, but they are by no means an exact science. Just because I get a pass one year doesn't mean I might not get a distinction next time does it? To deny a pupil the right to try the next grade, just because they got through an exam with just a pass, is in my opinion, emphatically wrong. Of course, work on their playing in between grades, give them other material and excercises to do etc, but please dont stop them moving on to the next level if they want to.
I had a pupil who failed her exam last year. The reason? Purely nerves!! Her mother said she played her pieces terribly on the day even though she was fine with them at home. After some work on her playing and building up her confidence, she is now going to try the next grade. Good for her!! I hope she overcomes her nerves one day and passes with a distinction. She has the ability in her, I know she has, but just because she had a bad time with one grade doesn't mean I'm going to tell her she's not good enough. Totally the opposite in fact. She's brushed herself down, got back on the horse and is going to try again!
Gae
| QUOTE |
| But i'm sure violinia will have a suitable answer to that! Probably something like "well don't do exams then" but that doesn't help eg Nat who desperately wants to teach. |
Re students who mess up somewhat because of nerves, I would hope that the examiners would make some allowance towards that and I believe they do. If they don't, I hope they are reading this because they certainly should.
But why should everybody take grade exams anyway? The previous violin peri at one of the schools was a great believer in only putting in students who are likely to do well, and doing her own sort of "mock grade exam" with the others as a way of measuring progress, for those who want or need it. It suited everyone very well and they certainly didn't become de-motivated as a result.
There can be just as much pleasure and sense of achievement in music without exams - why do so few people seem to see this in this country?
Violinia
| QUOTE (Violinia @ Apr 2 2005, 10:37 PM) |
| Re students who mess up somewhat because of nerves, I would hope that the examiners would make some allowance towards that and I believe they do. |
Yes, she gave me 100
| QUOTE |
| The previous violin peri at one of the schools was a great believer in only putting in students who are likely to do well, |
So you are saying, unless the student is going to get a high merit or distinction don't do the exam. What utter garbage. If that was the case then I would have never done a music exam. Result of that- i can't do what i want to do.
| QUOTE |
| There can be just as much pleasure and sense of achievement in music without exams - why do so few people seem to see this in this country? |
You seem so wrapped up in the problems of this country. I do apologise for being born here. None of us could help it. Stop going on about this county this and this country that. It's how it is, we can't help it.
| QUOTE (Violinia @ Apr 2 2005, 09:37 PM) |
| But why should everybody take grade exams anyway? The previous violin peri at one of the schools was a great believer in only putting in students who are likely to do well, and doing her own sort of "mock grade exam" with the others as a way of measuring progress, for those who want or need it. It suited everyone very well and they certainly didn't become de-motivated as a result. There can be just as much pleasure and sense of achievement in music without exams - why do so few people seem to see this in this country? Violinia |
Violinia
I'm staying out of the other posting.But I'm replying to this topic.
I have never heard so much tripe in my life. What you are basically saying- and does this apply to other subjects,as well as music?- is that people shouldn't sit exams unless they know or their teacher professes that to sit an exam they must be sure of gaining a merit or distinction?
For heaven's sake,woman...
And I think this country is too exam orientated...
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