QUOTE

Violinia, you keep avoiding the question posed by many: How do your posts make others feel? The posts were you mention passes not being good?

If some people read here and jump to conclusions before really reading properly what I'm saying - what am I to do about that? Any suggestions?

I guess I just have to make myself so utterly, utterly clear that no one, and I mean no one, could again misunderstand what I'm really saying. Perhaps I just haven't been clear enough.

I now see Nat has accpeted that i didn't mean her (which I didn't), but now feels Helen could be hurt. Yes that's a possibility, and I'm very sorry if that has happened - we exchanged a few PM's re the Kodaly meeting etc - I'm fond of her (as I am of Nat if the truth be known ), and the last thing I would want would be to hurt either of them.

So again - to anyone who thinks I'm implying passes are "rubbish" - please read the 3 points I made at the end of the last post - which are:

1 I have never said passes are rubbish

2 The odd pass happens - no matter

3 A string of passes (unless rushing towards a goal) should give teacher and student pause for thought - to find ways for the student to play more musically before taking the next exam.

OK - how about this -

1 a pass at any grade is an achievement and should be celebrated

2 use the comments sheets as a guide as to how you can improve musically before taking the next grade

3 taking exams isn't the be-all-and-end-all

4 explore and play lots of other repertoire as well as grade repertoire

5 take every opportunity to play with other people

What can be fairer than that?

Violinia

QUOTE

what would you then if you did all of the above and in the next exam the pupil just got a pass. you the repeated the above and the next exam was still a pass?

(Nat)

Unless you were in a rush, I'd look at several things, if the student was really desperate to get better marks, that is -

1 I'd never, ever think the marks meant a lack of innate talent in the student.

2 I'd get the student to video themselves practising, so that I could see exactly how they practise in an average practice session. Before that I'd give them a few lessons dedicated entirely to teaching them how to practise more effectively.

3 I'd see if there was any way the student could go away, or spend a day, on a playing course, to meet other students in a playing environment and get feedback from new people

4 I'd spend a lot of time working with them on the fine details of musicanship and expression

5 I'd do a lot of singing with them, ie Kodaly stuff, to help improve their aural skills.

6 I'd get them to leave notation for a while and try improvisation in lots of different styles

7 If I didn't know how to teach impro myself I'd find someone for them who did - or help them find a local jazz or impro workshop


Violinia

right, thanks for clarifying that

QUOTE

I'd do a lot of singing with them, ie Kodaly stuff, to help improve their aural skills.

lovely

QUOTE

I'd get the student to video themselves practising

Heehee, you can tell you're from a slightly more affluent area than many!

Violinia, I apoligise for saying that you were implying certain things when you weren't. I was just very unclear in what you were trying to say.

I've been reading all the posts with interest and to be honest, the main thing I've learnt from all the discussions are:-

It's not a good idea to post your pupil's exam results on the board and I wont do it again.

Gae

Noodle said

QUOTE

According to your signature, you have grade 7 piano yet you are teaching a grade 8 student. I find this hard to understand.

What is hard to understand? Just because I never sat the Grade 8 Exam myself doesnt mean I haven't performed dozens and dozens of Grade 8 pieces over the years and gone beyond that level myself. Maybe I just realised as an adult and a musician that I'd had enough of doing exams?

My signature also says "Bachelor of Arts" or doesn't that count?

Gae

P.S. As I am currently playing 3 pieces from the current syllabus so I may decide to finally sit the exam now that I've reached the grand old age of 40. The biggest deciding factor is whether or not I want to fork out £60 just for another certificate (assuming I'd pass that is!! )
I'm feeling nervous already just thinking about it!!

Thanks for going where the rest of us fear to tread, Gae. I'm still waiting for my results (it will be 3 weeks tomorrow). I'm waiting to see with interest what my feelings about them will be after all these discussions.

Is OK Gae - I haven't dared enter G8 myself (going on the "won't enter 'til I'm fairly sure I'll pass" thread!), yet I have learnt many G8 pieces and others, and although my best pupils are only around G4, as they improve I will continue to teach them.
I don't even have a BA - just a BMedSc and a MBChB to come.......

QUOTE (Gae @ Apr 3 2005, 02:19 PM)

I've been reading all the posts with interest and to be honest, the main thing I've learnt from all the discussions are:- It's not a good idea to post your pupil's exam results on the board and I wont do it again.

thats similar to what ive learnt Gae

i am not going to my post my exam results on here from now on

Thanks everyone, I throughly enjoyed reading your debates! Some very good points raised. I'd just like to add my personal views, I've been playing drums and percussion for a long time now. I've had several teachers, each has said I'm roughly around Grade 6 standard (at least thats what they've said to my face). However, I've only just taken Grade 1 and I'm fairly sure I've failed it. Not because I don't have the skill, commitment to practice, decent teachers, experience, preparation etc, but simply because I suffer from exam nerves big time. I can play fine on my own, or to my teachers, or to an audience (as I occasionally play with the school orchestra). But as soon as I'm on my own, in front of strangers, I completely fall apart and my results will probably reflect this.

Dunno if that applies to anyone else, but bear it in mind before judging peoples results too harshly.

Violinia

I think the points I'm referring to are when I first posted on this thread...You twisted your argument round somewhat.I havent got the time to read the lot again,nor quoting/unquoting.But if you care to scroll back - my comments are still there.

Gae

"What is hard to understand? Just because I never sat the Grade 8 Exam myself doesnt mean I haven't performed dozens and dozens of Grade 8 pieces over the years and gone beyond that level myself. Maybe I just realised as an adult and a musician that I'd had enough of doing exams?"

Same here regarding exams and who cares less whether you have Grade 8 or not. With your experience in teaching you don't have to prove a damn thing. Continuing to teach successfully over a number of years says enough. Also see that link previously.

I won't be posting my pupils exam results either.

Just pleased that the air has cleared enough for when next week dawns tomorrow.It's been enlightening.

QUOTE

But as soon as I'm on my own, in front of strangers, I completely fall apart

Totally!
I will happily play (and even sing) on my own, in front of pupils and even on stage....but put me in an exam room and it all goes horribly. My theory is that in all other situations I am comfortable that even when things go wrong, it's not too bad - no-one else can hear me, my pupils won't judge, I'll still get a round of applause from the audience, etc.
BUT the examiner is judging me - pure and simple.
This theory was recently tested when I accompanied one of my students for a violin exam, and even though it was on the same *exam piano* that causes such fear, I played well. Probably because I knew the examiner was only really listening to the student. Weird.

I think it will be a shame if this lively discussion prevents others from sharing their results with us. All marks have a context. A score of 120 may be the best result ever for one student, but a bitter disappointment for another.

Incidently, I didn't get any distinctions when I was taking exams.....but plenty of my students do!

QUOTE (Hulk @ Apr 3 2005, 11:46 AM)

You can discuss marks if you like, but don't make students feel bad. It is completely selfish, and for they students it dents their confidence, and makes them feel disappointed in themselves.

Don't be so super-sensitive. We are entitled to an opinion and if you don't like it there's not much I can do about that. Maybe when you are teaching students of your own you will understand the exam system more from a different perspective. The basic criteria for a merit in an exam piece are: good rhythm, sustained tempo, sense of character, tonal awareness and control and attention to dynamics and phrasing. I don't think thats too much to expect from any student, do you?

What I understood Violinia to say earlier was that a candidate who scraped a pass was not ready to progress to the next grade IMMEDIATELY - which I totally agree with. For example, if a child does grade 2 piano tomorrow, how does that make her ready to start grade 3 on Tuesday? She is no further on than she was on Monday, and probably didn't practce after her exam. Technique needs to be improved, scaled need learned, sight reading needs practising. Instrumentalists need to develop musically and technically before proceeding to the next grade. My approach works for me and above all it works for my students who do extremely well in exams and competitions. I have been teaching since I was 16 which is quite a number of years now. Thats why I don't have many students leaving to go to other teachers, and I have a considerable waiting list, with 2 of the children on it being under 4.

Nat, at no point in any of this was I referring to you, and I apologise if you think I was. As I've already said, you are doing exceptionally well given the time restraints on what you have to do. It would be a pleasure to teach someone as determined and motivated as you and I'm sure your teachers realise that. Please change the end of your signature to something more positive.

Semele, I've noticed that too. Great minds think alike!!

Finally, as has been said before, the best teachers aren't necessarily the best qualified, but just because someone can play the piano, trumpet or whatever doesn't mean they are necessarily capable of teaching it. Lets face it, most of us I'm sure can drive, but that doesn't mean we would necessarily make a good driving instructor.

QUOTE

The basic criteria for a merit in an exam piece are: good rhythm, sustained tempo, sense of character, tonal awareness and control and attention to dynamics and phrasing. I don't think thats too much to expect from any student, do you?

I can do all tht. Whihc is why i get frustrated at my bad marks in exams. becasue then people think im rubbish and dont value my result whatsoever

QUOTE

Nat, at no point in any of this was I referring to you, and I apologise if you think I was. As I've already said, you are doing exceptionally well given the time restraints on what you have to do.

I understand that you're saying your not refering to me, thats fine. but there are others who try just as hard, work on other things between grades, dont rush through them ans still dont get merits/distinctions.

Plus I when I have done exams previously when ive not been rushing, i have still got 'rubbish' marks. I just get frustrated that people seem to undervalue the result of a pass.

I really dont believe that any person can achieve a good mark in an exam, sorry if people disagree, but thats my view

Phew! Thanks SuzyMac, its good to hear i'm not the only one!

Noodle, I don't think Hulk is being 'super-sensitive' at all. His quote that you included in your post seems totally accurate and fair to me. I'll agree that you are more than entitled to your opinion, but as I think Hulk is trying to say, if speaking/posting your opinion could upset/disappoint a student or dent their confidence , then its probably best to keep the opinion to yourself?

Nat, despite being a newcomer to these forums, I can already see how much you love your music and how much work/effort you put into it. You should you be very proud of all your results, none of them are 'rubbish'. Change that bit of your signature 'cos it just ain't true.

QUOTE

I'd get the student to video themselves practising

QUOTE

Heehee, you can tell you're from a slightly more affluent area than many!

OK, Suzymac, you caught me out - alright they could tape themselves then!

And Hulk - I accept your apology - no hard feelings whatsoever Please accept mine for not making myself clear enough. Think I need a stuff drink after all this....

Violinia

Thanks bassmadmatt.

Noodle, I am not being super sensitive, it's you who is being insensitive. Yes you are entitled to your opinion, no one's doubting that, but when your opinion affects others in a negative way, that's unacceptable.

Students see teachers as people who can help them, not people who can put them down.

QUOTE (Violinia @ Apr 3 2005, 10:09 PM)

And Hulk - I accept your apology - no hard feelings whatsoever Please accept mine for not making myself clear enough. Think I need a stuff drink after all this.... Violinia

Apology accepted, no hard feelings...I wish I could have a stiff drink after this, unfortunately that's illegal

QUOTE (bassmadmatt @ Apr 3 2005, 08:59 PM)

Noodle, I don't think Hulk is being 'super-sensitive' at all. His quote that you included in your post seems totally accurate and fair to me. I'll agree that you are more than entitled to your opinion, but as I think Hulk is trying to say, if speaking/posting your opinion could upset/disappoint a student or dent their confidence , then its probably best to keep the opinion to yourself?  :)

Everyone is entitled to an opinion as you say. There are two sides to every story so obviously by taking one side you are going to upset those who disagree. Thats the way it is. As I've said before, the average mark is 116 and I like my students to be above that. What I said earlier was my opinion, not the Associated Boards opinion or anyone elses. If you don't like it forget about it, ignore it, do whatever you want but get over it! My opinion doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things, your opinion and your teachers is more important and more relevant to you. Yes its good to pass an exam, but what I said was that I would be devastated with results like those mentioned earlier and Violinia said she would be 'a little bit unhappy'. Do I have to spell it out for you? What I meant was that if I got results and 75% were passes I would not be happy at all.
Yes I know sometimes candidates are unhappy with the results they get in exams and feel they should have done better. I can't tell why pieces/scales aren't improving with practice without hearing them. Why not ask your teacher? Quite often new students ask me what they have to do to get a better grade.
So don't be so over-sensitive. If you or anyone else is upset/disappointed by a remark made by a complete stranger you need to get your act together and grow up. If you think you are going to go through life without disagreeing with someone you better think again. Or is it a case of hitting a raw nerve? If you were really happy with your results you wouldn't give a monkeys what The Queen of Sheba, the Barber of Seville or anyone else thinks.

Stop toying with people's insecurity noodle :

QUOTE

Or is it a case of hitting a raw nerve? If you were really happy with your results you wouldn't give a monkeys what The Queen of Sheba, the Barber of Seville or anyone else thinks.

No one hit a raw nerve with me, I was extremely pleased with my exam results recently and even if I received a pass, I would still be pleased.

QUOTE (Hulk @ Apr 3 2005, 09:09 PM)

Students see teachers as people who can help them, not people who can put them down.

I wasn't aware this post was about helping anyone.

But you are right. Students do see teachers as people who can help them. I help my students do their best in exams and play the piano to the best of their ability, in the same way my teacher got the best out of me.

Don't tell me what to do or what not to do. I don't take instructions from students.

QUOTE (noodle @ Apr 3 2005, 11:23 PM)

Don't tell me what to do or what not to do. I don't take instructions from students.

Seems like I have hit a raw nerve.

I wasn't telling you what to do, didn't you see this -- next to "Stop toying with people's insecurity noodle ".
-- Usually implies that I am joking, you obviously interpreted my post wrongly.

Ok. I'm sorry.

No problem...I just realised my post was quite cheeky, I apologise for that!

No problem! So we're both sorry then?

Yeh we're both sorry!

9 pages, 126 replies, 1775 views later and are we any the wiser? Probably not! One thing is for sure though. I didn't realise my original topic would create such a reaction. I was really just hoping that other people would follow my example and share their results too.
Here are those controversial results again, this time with a few of my personal thoughts!

Overall, the marks were lower than I'd hoped for but hey, I can handle that!

Grade 2 120 merit (This "above average" score seems fair for the pupil in question)

Grade 3 118 Pass (This "above average" score would have been a merit only the pupil in question didn't do the level of practice required on the scales)

Grade 3 110 (The examiner commented on the pupil's nerves during the exam)

Grade 8 104 (My first pupil taught from a beginner and entered for a Grade 8 exam. I was pleased first time around that at least it was a pass. Although this was a lower mark than I'd anticipated, it has made me realise what the standards and expectations are for Grade 8!) I know now for the future!

Gae

QUOTE (Hulk @ Apr 3 2005, 10:30 PM)

you obviously interpreted my post wrongly.

I think quite a few posts in this topic were misinterpreted/misunderstood. I certainly didn't intend to upset anyone. I just hate to see students doing badly through no fault of their own. I teach in two exam centres and frequently hear children practising before they go into their exam. I feel sorry for the examiner sometimes who has to listen to them. Above all, I can't believe how or why a teacher entered them in the first place because they simply weren't ready to do the exam. A teacher should know the standard expected to pass and not enter the child before they are ready. When I was accompanying exams just before Easter, I heard a succession of children playing Grade 1 Creepy Crawly with the wrong rhythm. Others just didn't know scales/pieces/notes and I don't just mean because they were nervous, they simply had learnt wrong notes and hadn't been corrected. Having spent a considerable amount of time working with a number of students who had failed exams with previous teachers it is demoralising because nearly all the time its not the childs fault but the way they have been taught. This is something I feel very strongly about as it is grossly unfair on the children. Thats why my students are taught to get the best possible result and play to the best of their ability. The children we are teaching today are the teachers of tomorrow and if they don't know what they are doing what will happen to the students of the future? I will read this topic for the last time tomorrow and see where I devalued an exam pass if I did.
Now its time for bed, I think I'm taking a migraine...

Noodle, I know what you are saying, but there is the argument that teachers dearly hope, pray and believe that their pupils will improve over the coming months leading up to the day of the exam. Sadly though, very often they dont do the sufficient practice required or they dont take on board all of the teacher's advice and help. That is the sad reality very often when preparing for an exam. When you have been preparing for an exam for several months, at some point, you have to make a choice as to whether or not to go for the Exam. Also, the Exam application deadline itself is usually a couple of months before the actual exam and so quite often you have to anticipate a pupil's progress. Often, there is pressure from the parents too. I had one pupil stop lessons because the parents, in their wisdom, didn't think she was at a high enough Grade. She had been having lessons for 2-3 years and was about to sit Grade 2. She was just about coping with that level and yet apparently I wasn't doing my job properly because her friend was on Grade 3. The usual dumb argument! Also, as teachers, we dont have control over how much practice our pupils do and/or what advice they take on board during the other 6 days and 23.5 hours a week that they are not in our company. There-in lies the main problem! As teachers we are not omnipotent and we have no control over external factors that may affect a pupil's progress such as intense school activities, clubs and homework!! I'm sure there are many teachers out there who would like to think that they are God but sadly it is not the case!

Gae

QUOTE (Violinia @ Apr 2 2005, 11:55 PM)

There's only one good reason for racing through grades regardless of marks, and that's to reach a specific goal by a specific time. If you don't have this specific goal, then I believe it's far better to take it more slowly, studying the comments sheet with the teacher if the marks are basic pass, and really working on what can be improved musically before progressing to the next grade. There's also a lot to be said for not ploughing through every single grade, but skipping them where you can, because ploughing through them can be very time-consuming and unmusical in the end because of the way it would necessitate over-focussing on just a few pieces, running the risk of putting the student off altogether. I hope you can see that, no it ISN'T implying there's no point in doing higher grades. All I'm saying is you'll get a lot more out of it musically if you take it at the right pace for you to progress musically, rather than merely grade-wise. When the importance of passing exams supersedes the importance of learning to play musically (therefore enjoyably), then something crucial has got lost along the way. Violinia

One thing that used to puzzle me was that certain candidates consistently reached high marks in examinations without being particularly inspiring public performers.

In theory, it should not happen, but it is true that there is a workmanlike and conscientious type of player who will never move anyone to tears, but who will practice 3 pieces for a protracted period and keep accurate time and rhythm, play notes accurately etc. An examiner in this situation may find it hard to award less than a merit mark because of limitations in the musicianship in a child that may exist at that time. [Did anyone ever see a report that described a student as "boring" directly or indirectly?]

I think there is also room for the more creative and free-sprited approach - that attempts to get the child "in character" - that dares to introduce a child to concepts/techniques such as style, rubato and cantabile - that takes more risks by paying attention to detailed balancing of the melodic strands against accompaniments etc. This approach is meaningful and fun - with great rewards once the higher grades are reached. You need plenty of teacher/student contact time and a stomach to sometimes accept lower marks for grades as you are building on a broader foundation.

I see strong parallels in skill-based sport such as hockey. If winning (or at least not losing) is the only goal, then it is possible to set a strategy for that with a narrowish skill set. On the other hand if you want to expose the children to a more complete skill set and love of the game at an early age - ignoring the score board - then greater rewards are available as the child gains maturity.

QUOTE (Gae @ Apr 4 2005, 12:04 AM)

Often, there is pressure from the parents too. I had one pupil stop lessons because the parents, in their wisdom, didn't think she was at a high enough Grade. She had been having lessons for 2-3 years and was about to sit Grade 2. She was just about coping with that level and yet apparently I wasn't doing my job properly because her friend was on Grade 3.

Gae,
I agree with what you have just said. Yes, its hard to estimate how much work a child will do in the 8 weeks or so before an exam, and I know they don't always do it. Sometimes it is like pushing water up a hill! As the exam deadline approaches and I have to decide whether or not to enter a student, the only criteria I consider is whether or not they would pass the exam if it was on the day of entry not whether they might be ready in 4 - 6 weeks time. I don't take anything for granted and assume they will improve in time because I know its not certain that they will.

I don't let parents pressure me into entering children for exams too soon. Like you I have parents asking 'her friend is doing grade 2 why can't she?' I just tell them if they aren't happy to take their daughter to her friends teacher. Doing grade 2 after 2-3 years
is about normal is it not?

Good luck with the teaching! As long a our students continue to do as well as we expect - then as teachers we are winning!!

QUOTE

As the exam deadline approaches and I have to decide whether or not to enter a student, the only criteria I consider is whether or not they would pass the exam if it was on the day of entry not whether they might be ready in 4 - 6 weeks time. I don't take anything for granted and assume they will improve in time because I know its not certain that they will.

Yes, this has happened to me in this particular instance. At the exam deadline, I felt that all these pupils were ready to pass the exam and happily, they all did. The fact that they did not get higher results means that they didn't make as much use of their practice time during the following 4-6 weeks up to the Exam day as the level required. Taking other mitigating factors into account of course such as performance nerves, playing on a strange instrument etc!

Gae

P.S. I've also just thought that Keyboard players are the only examination candidates who have to perform on a strange instrument. How difficult must that be on top of everything else?

I'm glad everyones smiling again!

QUOTE (Gae @ Apr 1 2005, 10:06 PM)

QUOTE Gae I see you have done a WJEC exam are you teaching in Wales? Thats right Trinity. I teach privately in North Wales. Are you in Wales too? Gae

yup but im in the south

tat was a fun debate eh? after all that, lets just sit down n celebrate everyones good results ( apart from me, took my grade 7 merit march 2004 , not taking grade 8 for ages, hehe lazy me)!

well that was interesting i was ca silent wacther in all of this and throughout i agreed with violinia