I think the sercret of getting good marks for exam is

1. having experiences...(my first piano exam-grade3 was only 132 but i gain so much better marks as i process on)so more practise sure helps.

2. hvaing the passion for music!!! Fall in love with music, because if you do, you won't scare of music exams and will give all you can give to the examiner.

*off course, praying before the exam will surely helps !!

Goodluck!!

pianist 1210. i disagree

i have experience, i practise, and have one ###### of a passion for music

QUOTE

I have never heard so much tripe in my life

seconded

QUOTE (pianist_1210 @ Apr 2 2005, 09:51 PM)

I think the sercret of getting good marks for exam is 1. having experiences...(my first piano exam-grade3 was only 132 but i gain so much better marks as i process on)so more practise sure helps.

Mmmmmm...only 132.

So what marks are you achieving now?

QUOTE (Semele @ Apr 2 2005, 10:55 PM)

Mmmmmm...only 132.

Exactly what I was thinking!

ONLY 132:?!!?!?!!

I'd die to get a mark like that

Pianist 1210, I disagree with you concerning passion of music, I have a great passion for music, as does Nat, and other musicians, but that doesn't make me or others less scared of exams.

Perhaps the more exams one does, the (slightly) less scared one feels about an exam, but I think I will always have that "butterfly" sensation in my stomach whilst going into/doing an exam.

yer i second what hulk says. No matter how many exams or recitals someone takes/gives, the nervous feeling is always going to be there. I think the trick is not to be scared of nerves, but to use them as adrenaline to pump up your performance. well thats how i do it, but im wierd! hehe! mind its always worked for me!
As an example, my teachers husband is a very accomplished concert pianist. He recently played the liszt b minor piano sonata (sorry i love tat piece!!)
in many countries, starting in england and ending up in italy or germany. And i once asked him if he gets nervous, and his reply " yes of course. Its natural to be nervous, to be nervous of making mistakes" Now i suggest that you listen to his words, he has a PhD in Artistic Interpretation of music!! hehe!

QUOTE (sl123451 @ Apr 2 2005, 10:14 PM)

Its natural to be nervous, to be nervous of making mistakes"

Of course its natural to be nervous. There would be something wrong with us if we weren't. I remember being so nervous playing in front of my piano professor at university that my fingers wouldn't touch the keys. I had to virtually lift my right hand with my left and put it on the keys! There would be something wrong with us if we weren't nervous and didn't worry, but we all have different ways of dealing with it and learning to overcome it.

These boards and everyone nowadays is far to exam orientated. Its all very well to people who have only ever got distinctions to go around saying "I only put pupils in who will get distinctions" because they dont know what it feels like to scrape a pass! I got 115 for my grade 5 piano and 114 for my grade 6 but i'm embarrased to post these marks, even though i was very glad to pass at the time (i'm not good in exams), because there are people who say "i only got 132" or similar. Only putting students in who will get merits and distinctions will eventually help in the downfall of "classical music" and music will become a hated, elitist subject as students drop out when they feel only achieving a pass is not acceptable.

QUOTE

Also, maybe the student just isnt musical. I mean, he could practice hours on end on the best piano in the world, have the best teacher and the most supportive parents, but he might just not have any musicality in him.

No such thing as a person with no musicality in him. We all have musicality in us and it's up to a good teacher to use every strategy in the book (and outside the book) to awaken that student's innate musicality. We all know about people who have always considered themselves to be "tone deaf" until an inspired teacher gets them to sing in tune for the first time, and then begin to fly musically. Read Cyrilla's experience.

QUOTE

When I did my exams, many years ago, one year I got a pass, the next a merit, another year a distinction etc etc....in no particular order! Were my results better one year because I was improving as a player, or because I didn't suffer from nerves on that particular day, or maybe because the pieces that I played in one grade were more suited to my technique, or I enjoyed playing them more (which showed in my performance) or perhaps even the Examiner was a more generous marker than the previous ones? See how complicated it gets?

If you got some merits and distinctions - nothing to worry about. What I'm talking about is no merits or distinctions, but still ploughing through grade after grade. To me this would be pretty pointless in a musical sense, unless you needed to get to a higher grade quickly in order to get into college by a certain time.

But hey, this is just me (and the previous peri in one of my schools, and my teacher etc etc). If some of you are happy with going from grade to grade without merits or distinctions, either because you need to reach a specific goal by a certian time, or because you're primarily motivated by exams, that's fine. It's just not my way. If it's your way and you can come up with convincing reasons as to why it's a good way, go ahead.

To me, though, students who are struggling musically for whatever reason should be made to slow down if at all possible, sort out what's going wrong, and come back to exams at a later stage if possible.

QUOTE

Unless you need the grades quickly for a specific goal,

I think it's wrong to encourage students to pursue exam after exam unless at least some merits are being achieved. They're time-consuming, somewhat limiting, and if the playing isn't getting steadily more musical, what, exactly, is the point???

An over-emphasis on exams at the expense of a growing musicality is unmusical and a waste of time.

Violinia

Read this link re exams, sightreading and musicality. You'll need Acrobat Reader if you don't have a Mac computer.

http://www.musicteachers.co.uk/resources/sightr.pdf

here here Kate.

If I had a teacher who only entered me if they could virtually gurarantee an excellent mark, I think I'd shoot myself and stop learning.

I agree that exams are a far too major thing here but I guess that's not going to change.

In my opinion teaching an instrument isn't about exams or results. It's about inspiring people, which is why I want to be a teacher. So I can try to inspire people. I may not get merits and distinctions but my music teachers inspire me ,and I want to be like them. That for me is the main thing in music, not exam results. My teachers are really good and without them I wouldn't even have thought for 1 second to do music at university. It's because of them that I have so much motivation and determination to do things that most people think are absurd. If they were completely different and were stuck in exam results mode then I certainly wouldn't be doing what I'm doing now.

That is why I want to do music at uni- because my teachers have given me the inspiration to do so. That is what teachings about.

QUOTE

These boards and everyone nowadays is far to exam orientated. Its all very well to people who have only ever got distinctions to go around saying "I only put pupils in who will get distinctions"

Aaarrgh - you miss the point entirely. It's the teachers and pupils who are over-fixated on exams who plough through them regardless of mark gained, not the teachers and pupils who wait until they can do really well at them!!!!

My teacher had zero interest in me doing exams and I didn't do any until I'd been learning violin for six years, and that was only for some reason or other to do with school or something.

Help!!!

Violinia

Well said Nat! Wonderful Post hehe It was so touching

I agree with you totally! I also want to be a music teacher, and before I even knew AB Exams existed, I wanted to teach not to get students playing at an amazing standard, but to show them the wonders of music, and to inspire them (in the words of Nat).

So now the pursuit of excellence is somehow at odds with showing people the wonders of music and inspiring them.

Help.

Violinia

QUOTE (Violinia @ Apr 2 2005, 10:50 PM)

Aaarrgh - you miss the point entirely. It's the teachers and pupils who are over-fixated on exams who plough through them regardless of mark gained, not the teachers and pupils who wait until they can do really well at them!!!!

Nope! You have missed the point. Isn't it Society that is over fixated?This has been discussed in varying degrees on other postings.I posted a link the other week...I forget exactly,but here it is again.

http://www.epolitix.com/EN/ForumBriefs/200...9d8049e06da.htm

As for me I don't encourage my pupils to sit through every single lower grade.Sometimes I advise for the pupil...adult and child...to sit Grade 1 then 3 and 5 or Grade 2,4 and 5. One adult I suggested Grade 6. I only enter pupils for grade 5 theory after working through the lower grades with past papers...the last few under exam conditions at home.

QUOTE (Violinia @ Apr 2 2005, 10:59 PM)

So now the pursuit of excellence is somehow at odds with showing people the wonders of music and inspiring them.

You are implying in your eyes that Music is elitist.Surely this isn't so?

To quote Mr Waters..."To weed out the weaklings...?"

Plus hasn't it been discussed previously that qualified teachers don't necessarily make the best teachers?

QUOTE (Violinia @ Apr 2 2005, 11:59 PM)

So now the pursuit of excellence is somehow at odds with showing people the wonders of music and inspiring them. Help. Violinia

OH SHUT UP

You're right, you do need help

I feel sorry for your pupils, you obvioulsy don't care about inspiring them, just make sure you get them distinctions so you look good. How pathetic.

Here Here Nat!

QUOTE (Violinia @ Apr 2 2005, 11:59 PM)

So now the pursuit of excellence is somehow at odds with showing people the wonders of music and inspiring them.

It shouldn't matter whether the student doesn't become excellent on their instrument or doesn't receive distinctions. Does that mean that they shouldn't be inspired, or that they shouldn't learn? Or perhaps your saying that if one doesn't obtain high marks in exams, what is the point of doing higher grades?

Then I ask you Violinia, why would the AB create an award called "Pass" if there is no point in doing higher grades if one doesn't receive a distinction?

QUOTE

It shouldn't matter whether the student doesn't become excellent on their instrument or doesn't receive distinctions. Does that mean that they shouldn't be inspired, or that they shouldn't learn? Or perhaps your saying that if one doesn't obtain high marks in exams, what is the point of doing higher grades?

When did I ever imply anything of the kind? I just think instrument teachers should aim for all of it with their students - musical excellence AND inspiration AND learning. How can I make myself clearer?

It's easy to be fatalistic with some pupils and think - well, they'll never be much good so lets just give them a nice time, but if they're not progressing there almost always IS something the teacher can do - but it takes work, effort, and really trying to understand that particular pupil's individual learning style.

They really emphasised this on the CTABRSM course - that if a pupil isn't progressing the teacher must always look to themself and how they can better reach that student. In my experience there's almost always a way.

And the whole pass/merit/distinction thing to me acts as a pointer. If there are no merits or distinctions then what's wrong with the teacher asking the student to slow down a bit and try a different tack? If the end purpose is truly musical playing (which always equals more enjoyment)???

QUOTE

why would the AB create an award called "Pass" if there is no point in doing higher grades if one doesn't receive a distinction?

Good question, and in my view the AB should impress on teachers that they should give pause for thought if no merits or distinctions are ever achieved, ie - should the student be ploughing through exams? What is on the comments sheet? How can the teacher best help improve their student's performance? No way would I EVER suggest a student should give up, whatever their marks - just find a way, with their teacher, to play more musically, and therefore more enjoyably.

Violinia

I agree with Violinia!

I also agree with Nat

I can't help it! I am the Good Friday - ing, boundary - fudging, no crackling debate-ing person that Violinia associates with this rocking little island.

The reason I agree with Violinia is that I think aiming for a pupil to be merit standard before taking an exam (she never said distinction standard) represents, as a general default option, a standard which indicates a very comfortable ability at all elements of that grade stage, and a corresponding full preparedness to move on to the next stage.

The reason I agree with Nat is that I think against whatever ideal starting point a teacher embarks from, every individual person's circumstances are different. I agree that Nat's best example of what she is saying is herself. She is progressing rapidly through her music exams and towards the qualifications she needs to study music at university level. As I understand it she has focussed on a need to get to Grade V theory, Grade V piano, and Grade VIII principle instrument without years of spare time to do it in.

I would feel wounded, just as Nat does, if I wanted to be a music teacher, and saw my own good pass marks at high grade levels being described by other teachers as disappointing, or embarassing, or devastating.

But I think Nat does herself and her future pupils (of whom I am sure there will be throngs) an immense disservice if she views the progress of her grade marks as indicative of the fact that she can in some way be pigeonholed as a "pass student" as opposed to a "merit student" or a "distinction student". There are not three tracks for three different types of human being. I hope, even with her capacity for self-deprecation, that if she thinks about it carefully Nat would agree with me that if she re-sat grade I on any of her instruments tomorrow, she would pass with distinction. I have no great confidence in my own playing, but I'd put a few quid on myself to get a distinction in grade I violin if I took it tomorrow, despite never having got a distinction in any of my exams. This is because I know my mark would be based not on the number of stars orbiting my noble brow, but on how well I could knock out some grade I pieces, scales, aural tests and sight-reading, measured by grade I standards.
There is no "mystical aura of distinctionly-ness" from which any of us are excluded in grade exams. It's about how good a job you do on various tests at the level you go in for.

The reason I say Nat would do herself and her future students a disservice to view herself as a constitutional "pass student" as opposed to someone who has hurried through the grades for sound practical reasons, is that I believe
from what I have read of her love of music and her success in exams, that Nat has the capacity one day, whether it be in a year's time, four years or ten years, to know exactly what it takes to get a clarinet distinction at grade VIII and at every other level. But if she sees herself as a person who will only ever be a pass student, rather than as a person who just happens to be at that stage now, it will be very difficult for her to bring out the best in her pupils.

As I only have a stock of about 3 anecdotes which I have already exhausted on this forum, I find myself repeating one I have mentioned before: Roger Coull took up violin at 11, as just one of a series of fleeting interests. At 14 he was an undistinguished grade 4 player whose teacher would not have described him as particularly musical or gifted. By chance he attended a new orchestra which was starting up. About 100 musicians attended, and somebody pointed at him randomly and told him to lead the orchestra. He couldn't play the music. He didn't want to lose his place as leader. He practised 4hrs a day and by the next rehearsal he could play everything. He passed grade VIII within one year and went on to become an internationally recognised violinist as leader of the Coull String quartet. If he had measured his potential in terms of his progress through the early grades, as opposed to his hopes for the future, none of this would have happened.

QUOTE (Katet @ Apr 2 2005, 10:34 PM)

These boards and everyone nowadays is far to exam orientated.

Of course they are exam orientated, the Associated Board has around 270,000 exam candidates a year. Do you think we are going to discuss the weather? Yes there are musical topics not exam related but every forum for every instrument has topics on exams.

Perhaps students don't think about this from a teachers perspective although it doesn't apply if privately taught . Every day I go to work, the head of music is pressuring me for results, every staff meeting my boss is talking about results, results, improving results, improving results further... Everywhere I teach I am pressurized to get results - which I can deliver if I have time to make sure the candidate is fully prepared to the best of their ability. If that means giving a child an extra term to prepare for an exam then so be it.

And when I enter pupils for exams I always aim for perfection or as near as.Then they can afford to lose the marks. Some lose more than others,but I certainly wouldn't dream of entering a pupil who was just about a pass standard of that particular grade.

I'm just thankful,Noodle,I'm not in your position.I would end up telling the Head where to stick their head in a place where the sun doesn't shine...but then again,the Head has pressures on their shoulders too...

Violinia, you did imply that it would be a waste of time to do higher grades if one didnt get get good marks.

You said something along the lines of "there is no point in ploughing through grades if you don't recieve high marks." Which IS implying that if someone obtained a pass at a certain grade, then there isn't any point in doing higher grades.

Which brings me back to the point that if a student can't get a merit or distinction on a lower grade, then why should they be limited and put off by people like you who are much too opinionated for their own good. If they want to do higher grades, then you have no say in the matter.

We get the point that you would be disappointed if one of your students didn't get a high mark, but for other people getting a pass is quite an acheivment, so stop making people who obtain passes feel bad, because it is completely out of order.

A few people have said to me recently I need to have more confidence in myself HAHAHA!!!! How on earth is that supposed to happen when I get results I'm pleased with and then this e.g.:

QUOTE

I would feel wounded, just as Nat does, if I wanted to be a music teacher, and saw my own good pass marks at high grade levels being described by other teachers as disappointing, or embarassing, or devastating.

QUOTE (Semele @ Apr 2 2005, 11:35 PM)

And when I enter pupils for exams I always aim for perfection or as near as.Then they can afford to lose the marks. Some lose more than others,but I certainly wouldn't dream of entering a pupil who was just about a pass standard of that particular grade.

Exactly. The children we are teaching today are the teachers of tomorrow so perfection and accuracy are very important.

I also hope my boss isn't reading this.......

QUOTE

Violinia, you did imply that it would be a waste of time to do higher grades if one didnt get get good marks.

Actually no, that's not what I was saying at all. What I keep reiterating is this:

There's only one good reason for racing through grades regardless of marks, and that's to reach a specific goal by a specific time.

If you don't have this specific goal, then I believe it's far better to take it more slowly, studying the comments sheet with the teacher if the marks are basic pass, and really working on what can be improved musically before progressing to the next grade.

There's also a lot to be said for not ploughing through every single grade, but skipping them where you can, because ploughing through them can be very time-consuming and unmusical in the end because of the way it would necessitate over-focussing on just a few pieces, running the risk of putting the student off altogether.

So,

QUOTE

You said something along the lines of "there is no point in ploughing through grades if you don't recieve high marks." Which IS implying that if someone obtained a pass at a certain grade, then there isn't any point in doing higher grades.

I hope you can see that, no it ISN'T implying there's no point in doing higher grades.

All I'm saying is you'll get a lot more out of it musically if you take it at the right pace for you to progress musically, rather than merely grade-wise.

In the end, isn't this supposed to be about music???

When the importance of passing exams supersedes the importance of learning to play musically (therefore enjoyably), then something crucial has got lost along the way.

Violinia

*yawn*

QUOTE

All I'm saying is you'll get a lot more out of it musically if you take it at the right pace for you to progress musically, rather than merely grade-wise.

We know that.

Can't you understand though that telling people that passes (between 100-119 in case you didnt know what they were) weren't good enough, would really not do anything for their enjoyment and playing.

If I ever make it as a teacher, I will of course try to get my pupils the best possible marks,but I am not gonig to cry if they ever 'just got 115' or whatever.

Shouldn't a teacher be proud of their students for passing rather than bein like ' oh no only a 117 that's sooo terrible'

Violinia, in the Einaudi topic you told Nat that you never said that you would be devastated if one of your students recieved a pass. But whilst reading previous posts by yourself i came across the line:
"OK I admit it - I'm very disappointed if a student of mine doesn't get at least a merit in his/her exam"

Which is essentially saying you would be devastated, so you've taken to lying now?

"Very disappointed" and "devastated" are not the same thing. Plus I put "I admit", which was meant to suggest that being "very disappointed" isn't necessarily an ideal response.

And Nat:

QUOTE

Can't you understand though that telling people that passes (between 100-119 in case you didnt know what they were) weren't good enough, would really not do anything for their enjoyment and playing.

Where did I ever, ever say I'd tell a student I was disappointed they hadn't done better? When my student got 112 last year in her Grade 4 I told her I was thrilled she'd passed and sent her a congratulations card, for heavens sake. When she came back for more lessons we talked over the comments sheet, discussed what she'd done well at and also discussed what she'd done not so well at, and talked over ways of working on those. To be honest she was lucky to pass at all - it turned out she'd virtually given up practising - her social life had taken over by then.

QUOTE

Shouldn't a teacher be proud of their students for passing rather than bein like ' oh no only a 117 that's sooo terrib

You really think I'd ever let it show to one of my students that I wasn't thrilled they'd passed? If I ever let a feeling like that show it would just undermine them. However, it would be musically irresponsible to just say "wow, great, well done, lets move onto the next grade" without going over with them how they could have done better so they can go on and do even better next time. That's not undermining them - that's wanting the best for them and expecting the best of them.

Violinia

QUOTE (Violinia @ Apr 2 2005, 03:55 PM)

OK, so the kid can go "I'm grade 4 whatever", but they play out of tune, or out of time, with little or no expression.  Where is the real value in that?

I'm interested in this point. Do you mean that one can pass a music exam by playing out of tune, out of time and with little or no expression?

Sorry, but being a mere piano student of untested ability, I can't quite get my head around this...I was hoping to take an exam to give me a reasonably good idea of the standard of playing I've attained so far, and was assuming that if I pass I can take it that I'm at that particular level. I don't mean I'm not trying hard to obtain as good a mark as possible, but that if I 'merely' pass I will be happy to know I've reached a particular grade... BUT, I can assure you I won't be playing out of time and with little or no expression!

Until a few months ago, I couldn't imagine even entering for an exam, let alone passing one, so having reached this point, I will consider it a great achievement if I pass...

How very entertaining! I've thouroughly enjoyed reading all these debates...

I personally believe that a student shouldn't be entered for an exam unless you are fairly convinced they will pass it comfortably - not necessarily with distinctions/merits, but to a level where even if nerves take over, a pass is still available.

Incidently Gae, your original post was about marks...? I got my students' yesterday - 127 (G1) 127 (G1 - her daughter!!!!) and 104 (G1) who by her own admission 'completely fell apart'

While I totally agree with Gae that music can help a person to mature and develop in other ways, and that music is 'good for the soul', I somehow can't equate that with the often soulless experience of performing at an AB exam, to a largely silent (except for a not very convincing 'thank you') audience of one, writing unseen comments on a form. Why not rather let children experience performing to an appreciative audience of friends and family, especially in the early stages of their musical development?

No, music certainly shouldn't be competitive. But while I wouldn't tell a child that they weren't 'good enough' to enter an exam, I do feel it might be demoralising for them to plough through a syllabus that they're not remotely engaged with, and for them to feel disappointed if they're then found lacking according to someone else's criteria. It's the 'one-size-fits-all' aspect of the AB syllabus that I find so constraining. One-to-one lessons should be a glorious opportunity to explore a child's individual musical interests, as Violinia described so well in charting the progress of her disenchanted 12 year old, who 3 years later is embarking on Grade 6 and the Bach double.

Why SHOULD we have to accept this principle of grading young musicians as though they were eggs, or flour, or something? In the process a lot of joy and pleasure seems to be eradicated. Learning an instrument is being turned into a form of drudgery - not much food for the soul involved. No wonder so many players give up once they've amassed a bunch of certificates. Let's remember that in the rest of Western Europe, Eastern Europe, the US and elsewhere this system is unknown. Yet they produce wonderful, well rounded players who continue into adulthood.

And all music colleges and unis in this country would be happy with a good Grade 8, without any evidence of having taken any earlier grades. A large proportion of music college entrants now come from abroad, where, as I mentioned, thay don't even have our very questionable music exam system.

QUOTE (Violinia @ Apr 3 2005, 02:15 AM)

"Very disappointed" and "devastated" are not the same thing.  Plus I put "I admit",  which was meant to suggest that being "very disappointed" isn't necessarily an ideal response.

Well obviously it isn't an ideal response, far from it to say the least. But you have continually pointed out that a pass isn't a good thing, how are people who receive passes supposed to feel? Disappointed in themselves? A pass is still an acheivment regardless of your opinions, and for people who try their hardest, and do their best and recieve passes, then that is a noteworthy acheivement. But you are making them feel bad, do that to your own students, not to others.

A distinction doesn't name a good musician.

QUOTE (clarinetlover @ Apr 3 2005, 12:05 AM)

Can't you understand though that telling people that passes (between 100-119 in case you didnt know what they were) weren't good enough, would really not do anything for their enjoyment and playing. Shouldn't a teacher be proud of their students for passing rather than bein like ' oh no only a 117 that's sooo terrible'

I would be surprised if any teacher told a student that passing an exam wasn't good enough. It goes without saying that passing an exam is good. Good results for me are not just getting children to pass exams. Good results are getting children to get the best result they are capable of.
Teaching can be demanding, stressful and at times thankless. I need to be challenged but I know I wouldn't be happy if all my students merely passed exams. I need job satisfaction and I need to know that my students are being well taught and doing their best. There is a big difference between a pass of 101 and a pass of 116 which is the current average mark. When my students stop doing their best and I stop getting the best out of them then there is something wrong. If I get to this stage I will be considering a career change. Sometimes stacking soup cans and cornflakes in Sainsburys has a definite appeal.
Seriously though, the students of today are the teachers of tomorrow and they should be encouraged. When you have been teaching for 5 years it would be interesting to have this discussion again and see if your views have changed. When you have experience of teaching and exam standards you will know how scary it is for a teacher who is working with a student who may or may not scrape a pass. Lets face it, a mark of 101 is touch and go and it is in the hands of the examiner whether it is pass or fail. That is an experience which I avoid for both my students and myself.

QUOTE (Violinia @ Apr 3 2005, 02:15 AM)

And Nat: QUOTE Can't you understand though that telling people that passes (between 100-119 in case you didnt know what they were) weren't good enough, would really not do anything for their enjoyment and playing. Where did I ever, ever say I'd tell a student I was disappointed they hadn't done better? When my student got 112 last year in her Grade 4 I told her I was thrilled she'd passed and sent her a congratulations card, for heavens sake. When she came back for more lessons we talked over the comments sheet, discussed what she'd done well at and also discussed what she'd done not so well at, and talked over ways of working on those. To be honest she was lucky to pass at all - it turned out she'd virtually given up practising - her social life had taken over by then.

Maybe I didn't make myself clear. I didn't say that you told your students their mark was rubbish in your view. But you make it perfectly clear that just getting a pass isn't good enough. Do you not realise how others on here feel about that, like myself and Helen. When all we get is 'just passes'. Your 'views' certainly don't make anyone feel any better about their playing

QUOTE

If I ever let a feeling like that show it would just undermine them.

That is exactly what I am on about. Maybe you don't show it to your students , but you certainly show it on here, where there are also students who 'just get passes'. You seem to avoid this everytime I mention it, but do you have any idea what it feels like to think you've done as well as you can in an exam and the result is 'just a pass' and then to realise that people stuck up in distinction land are undermining your result? I expect you don't.

QUOTE (Violinia @ Apr 2 2005, 11:55 PM)

There's also a lot to be said for not ploughing through every single grade, but skipping them where you can, because ploughing through them can be very time-consuming and unmusical in the end because of the way it would necessitate over-focussing on just a few pieces, running the risk of putting the student off altogether. QUOTE You said something along the lines of "there is no point in ploughing through grades if you don't recieve high marks." Which IS implying that if someone obtained a pass at a certain grade, then there isn't any point in doing higher grades. I hope you can see that, no it ISN'T implying there's no point in doing higher grades. All I'm saying is you'll get a lot more out of it musically if you take it at the right pace for you to progress musically, rather than merely grade-wise. In the end, isn't this supposed to be about music??? When the importance of passing exams supersedes the importance of learning to play musically (therefore enjoyably), then something crucial has got lost along the way.

Violinia

You don't appear to be replying to me on the points I have raised,but now I see you are using a few of them to justify your stance against CL.

I do actually work the pupils through the exams they don't actually sit because it's accumulative knowledge.Therefore,if you look at it from a different angle,this could be advantageous and speedier to plough through the grades as the pupil isn't waiting for the next exam session.

CL is having to proceed "fast-track"to gain the requirements needed to get her on the Uni course she wishes to pursue.

In my opinion she is doing damn well and it's irrelevant whether she acheives a pass or distinction.

Well Done,Nat,and don't let negative comments destroy your confidence.

People have the rest of their lives to progress their musical ability and broaden their musical knowledge.Like every subject on earth,you never stop learning if you have enough interest in the subject to wish to do this.

QUOTE (SuzyMac @ Apr 3 2005, 10:23 AM)

I personally believe that a student shouldn't be entered for an exam unless you are fairly convinced they will pass it comfortably - not necessarily with distinctions/merits, but to a level where even if nerves take over, a pass is still available.

Exactly. It doesn't do the child any good to be entered for an exam too soon and it puts them under even more pressure making them even more nervous. Sometimes parents and students don't understand why they don't do as well as they think they should. Frequently I have parents bringing children to me who have failed an exam with another teacher and they can't understand why they failed. One student got 92 and her mother said she couldn't believe her daughter failed. It was painfully obvious why she failed - she didn't know the scales, she couldn't play more than two lines of a piece without a mistake, wrong fingering, wrong rhythm, no melody/accompaniment, no sense of style.. I know some students and parents are genuinely disappointed with exam results, but if you think you play well enough to get a high merit and actually fail or get 101, then there clearly is a problem.

QUOTE (noodle @ Apr 3 2005, 10:54 AM)

I would be surprised if any teacher told a student that passing an exam wasn't good enough. It goes without saying that passing an exam is good.  Good results for me are not just getting children to pass exams. Good results are getting children to get the best result they are capable of.   Teaching can be demanding, stressful and at times thankless.  I need to be challenged but I know I wouldn't be happy if all my students merely passed exams.  I need job satisfaction and I need to know that my students are being well taught and doing their best. There is a big difference between a pass of 101 and a pass of 116 which is the current average mark. When my students stop doing their best and I stop getting the best out of them then there is something wrong.  If I get to this stage I will be considering  a career change. Sometimes stacking soup cans and cornflakes in Sainsburys has a definite appeal. Seriously though, the students of today are the teachers of tomorrow and they should be encouraged. When you have been teaching for 5 years it would be interesting to have this discussion again and see if your views have changed.  When you have experience of teaching and exam standards you will know how scary it is for a teacher who is working with a student who may or may not scrape a pass. Lets face it, a mark of 101 is touch and go and it is in the hands of the examiner whether it is pass or fail. That is an experience which I avoid for both my students and myself.

Yes,I agree entirely. I also agree on your later posting too. In fact you and me appear to have very similar opinions...full stop.

well said nat!

Violinia, if you say things on here about "how 115 is a poor mark", then u need to think about people on here who get 115, and how much that can dent their confidence.

Not everyone is so fantastic at exams, and at the end of the day, exams dont really show much about a person. Whoppee so someone is grade 8 distinction, does that make them more talented than the person who is grade 8 pass? its impossible to tell. Its not the end of the world if you dont get a distinction!!!!

QUOTE (sl123451 @ Apr 3 2005, 11:20 AM)

Violinia, if you say things on here about "how 115 is a poor mark", then u need to think about people on here who get 115, and how much that can dent their confidence. Not everyone is so fantastic at exams, and at the end of the day, exams dont really show much about a person. Whoppee so someone is grade 8 distinction, does that make them more talented than the person who is grade 8 pass? its impossible to tell. Its not the end of the world if you dont get a distinction!!!!

Just incase you hadn't noticed, this is a teachers forum, we can discuss results and if teachers think 115 is a poor mark we can say so here. Personally I think 115 is about average and I like my students to be at least that standard. So if you are sensitive about teachers opinions then don't read it.
And yes, there is a massive difference between the ability of someone who has passed grads 8 with distinction and someone who just passes - both in talent and technique. Thats why music colleges only audition candidates of distinction standard.
No its not the end of the world if you don't get distinction, but if you feel you can do better then its up to you.
Its a bit like GCSEs - is there a difference between getting a C grade and an A*?

QUOTE (noodle @ Apr 3 2005, 12:32 PM)

Its a bit like GCSEs - is there a difference between getting a C grade and an A*?

Of course there is

BUT

my best friend is one of the most hard working students you'd ever meet. she revises for exams etc, so you would think that she'd get so called 'good' results. she doesnt. she gets, D's, E's etc. Tell me why, its not for lack of effort or poor schooling. Its just because her strengths do not lie in academic things. so to put that in musical terms:

Not everyone is going to get distinctions, because not everyone hsa the inner talent to make them naturally good at something

QUOTE

but if you think you play well enough to get a high merit and actually fail or get 101, then there clearly is a problem.

So, in your opinion if that happened, what would say the problem was?

Noodle, what you said about this being a teacher's forum and how you can discuss marks is true, but when certain teachers start to imply that a pass isn't good, that's unacceptable.

This forum is read by students, as you all know, some students may be looking for advice, others just checking the topics. But my point is this, what if a student reads this topic, and they get passes in their exams, and then they see implications that a pass isn't good, how do they feel?

You can discuss marks if you like, but don't make students feel bad. It is completely selfish, and for they students it dents their confidence, and makes them feel disappointed in themselves.

QUOTE (Hulk @ Apr 3 2005, 11:46 AM)

You can discuss marks if you like, but don't make students feel bad. It is completely selfish, and for they students it dents their confidence, and makes them feel disappointed in themselves.

Well said!

Thank God for Helen vj who has just appeared and expressed everything I've been trying (and obviously failing to get across to some) to communicate. Thanks Helen.

And to Nat: yes, after I wrote last night's post I went to bed realising that saying I wouldn't be particuarly happy if my pupils kept getting basis passes could be having an undermining effect on you.

But listen, Nat - this is an internet forum. My comments are some among many others expressing opposite views to mine Because you are obviously negatively affected by my comments, does this mean I should keep silent on my views re grade exams and marks? When so may others are congratulating you on your success? n

Also, I keep on and on saying that if you need to rush through the grades for a particular reason, like to reach grade 8 by a certain time to get into uni - and by this I'm referring to you - then it obviously doesn't matter in the same way. You must have read this quite a few times, yet you keep ignoring it, as if I'm directing my comments about pass marks specifically to you - which I'm not; in fact I'm exempting you as it happens.

To Semele:

QUOTE

You don't appear to be replying to me on the points I have raised,but now I see you are using a few of them to justify your stance against CL.

Name the points you want me to reply to and I'll reply to them. And by the way I have absolutely no stance against Nat - what a ridiculous idea. And as I've just mentioned above, I keep re-iterating over and over again that basic passes don't matter if you're racing towards a high grade for a particular reason, as Nat is. There - said it again.

And going back to my views about basic passes - what I keep saying, only few people seem to understand what I mean, is that I don't think it's a great idea to race through the grades without being concerned about raising one's marks (Unless you're aiming for a particular goal - as Nat is). My reasons for saying this are musical ones and they're valid ones. And in the end all I'm saying - to the people who don;t need to race - is - if you keep getting basic passes, study the comments sheets and work through the problems with your teacher so you have a chance of doing better next time. Where on earth is the problem in that???

I'm also relieved to see noodle and Suzymac are also saying the same thing as Helen vj and myself - thank god we're not alone.

And to Jen:

Yes, as far as violin is concerned, you certainly can pass an exam while playing (some notes, anyway) out of tune and out of time and with little or no expression. If you play the pieces with reasonable accuracy you can get a pass. As Suzymac just illustrated: one of her students just got 104 (G1) who by her own admission 'completely fell apart' . It happens. You pass with 100 marks or over.

And to Semele:

I do actually work the pupils through the exams they don't actually sit because it's accumulative knowledge.Therefore,if you look at it from a different angle,this could be advantageous and speedier to plough through the grades as the pupil isn't waiting for the next exam session.

Yes that's another approach - it's certainly normally unnecessary to plough through every single grade exam.

And noodle's wise comment:

When you have experience of teaching and exam standards you will know how scary it is for a teacher who is working with a student who may or may not scrape a pass. Lets face it, a mark of 101 is touch and go and it is in the hands of the examiner whether it is pass or fail. That is an experience which I avoid for both my students and myself.

Absolutely. I have a student at the moment who is desperate to take grade 1. She suffers from dodgy self-esteem (and doesn't practise enough) and I would be doing her no favours whatsoever unless I got her to wait until she can get a comfortable pass or even a merit - she would be devastated if she failed, and I'm not prepared to risk that happening to her. The student who took grade 4 and got 112 went ahead and decided to take the exam a term before I felt she was truly ready, but what can you do if they firmly decide that's what they want to do? She was 14 at the time.. At least she did get her pass.

Violinia

Violinia, you keep avoiding the question posed by many:
How do your posts make others feel? The posts were you mention passes not being good?

QUOTE

Also, I keep on and on saying that if you need to rush through the grades for a particular reason, like to reach grade 8 by a certain time to get into uni - and by this I'm referring to you - then it obviously doesn't matter in the same way. You must have read this quite a few times, yet you keep ignoring it, as if I'm directing my comments about pass marks specifically to you - which I'm not; in fact I'm exempting you as it happens.

Fine, I know now. but its not just me who gets basic passes. there are others like Helen(Subatomic_star)for example who arent rushing for a particular goal and still get basic passes. I feel sorry for people like her who work so hard and are reasonably happy with the results and then seeing your posts completely undermining the value of a pass. that does wonders for her confidence im sure.

I'm not making this whole post about Helen, because that would be unfair, but she is just another example.

I have no problem with people expressing their opinions. However it's very hard to cope with that fact that teachers on here are probably secretly thinking what a a rubbish result.

If the only thing I worked for was say grade 6 piano, and i still got the same mark (116) then I would be delighted. You may not be but you have no idea how nervous i get in exams, you have never heard me play, so it would really annoy me for you to then say thats not very good. I worked my socks off for grade 6 piano last month, and i dont really feel i could have got a much better mark than what i got.

I have been restraining myself from taking part in this debate so far, although I have been following it with interest. However, it has led me to think about some of my students, and I just want to say the following:

I have been teaching Girl A for three years. Like many of my students, she came to me for private lessons having learned in school for a few years. When I began teaching her, the last grade she had passed was Grade 3, around two years earlier. She already knew one of the Grade 5 pieces, so I suggested we worked towards Grade 5. Technically, as regards fingerwork, she is the best student I have. She knows all her scales, and her sight reading is excellent. I was a comparatively inexperienced teacher at the time, but I had put several students through Grade 5 who had achieved high merits, so I was reasonably confident about the standard required. She got 109 for the exam, which startled me.

Adding to my unease was the fact that she had obtained distinction for her grades 4 and 5 piano. I couldn't work out where I had gone wrong. She worked towards Grade 6, but told me she was thinking of giving up if her marks didn't improve, because she could see no point in practising as hard as she did if she was only going to scrape a pass. To cut a long story short, she got a decent pass for Grade 6, and a distinction for Grade 7.

However, I have come to realise that she is fundamentally a very unmusical person. She is not interested in music as such, just in doing well in exams. She achieved a distinction in Grade 5 theory, and then promptly forgot everything she had learned for the exam. She struggles with aurals, because she doesn't see the point in doing them. Whilst I am proud in what I have achieved with her purely in a marks sense, I know she will never love playing for its own sake.

In contrast, Girl B has never achieved above a pass mark with me. There are reasons for this, mainly due to a complex combination of eye problems, dyslexia and dyspraxia. However, she loves playing. She buys endless books of music (particularly film music), and has improved her sightreading no end just by playing so much different music. Her exam results have got better since I have been teaching her, and I would love her to get the merit she deserves, but I think her co-ordination problems put a ceiling on what is achievable.

Exam marks do not tell the whole story. I know which of the two is more musical. I look forward to Girl B's lessons far more than Girl A's. (and I know which one Nat reminds me of ).

QUOTE

Violinia, if you say things on here about "how 115 is a poor mark", then u need to think about people on here who get 115, and how much that can dent their confidence.

(sl123451)

QUOTE

Just incase you hadn't noticed, this is a teachers forum, we can discuss results and if teachers think 115 is a poor mark we can say so here. Personally I think 115 is about average and I like my students to be at least that standard. So if you are sensitive about teachers opinions then don't read it.

(noodle)

QUOTE

Noodle, what you said about this being a teacher's forum and how you can discuss marks is true, but when certain teachers start to imply that a pass isn't good, that's unacceptable.

(hulk)

I am getting heartily sick of hulk continually accusing me of implying this that and the other. I know exactly what I'm trying to say, and Helen vj, noodle and Suzymac seem to get it without any trouble. Then Hulk comes on and keeps accusing me of "implying" that mere passes are always rubbish etc etc.

This is NOT, repeat NOT what I am saying.

Hopefully for the last time in this thread, I know a pass is a pass and it's an achievement in itself - fine. But unless the student - like Nat - is taking a string of exams quikly to reach a certain goal - I would see a string of passes (with no merits or distinctions) as cause for pause for thought. Not cause to give up - not cause for despair - not cause for anything like that. Just cause to look at the comments and work out how to improve, and how to play more musically.

In what way is that intrinsically undermining?

I obviously seem to be missing something here, so please explain.

Look, a caring teacher, faced with, say, a third pass - unless the student was rushing towards a particular goal - would congratulate the student for passing but then study the comments sheet with them, work through the problems with the student, find out their musical tastes, get them to explore something different from exam repertoire for a while. Then - if they still want to take the next exam, introduce the pieces to them when their playing has moved up a notch, as it almost inevitably will given this approach, rather than a "ploughing through the grades" approach.

If you have a problem with this approach and with my expressing these views on a teacher's forum, Hulk, please tell me what your problem is. And bear in mind what I'm really saying - not what you think I'm implying - which is, again :

1 I have never said passes are rubbish

2 The odd pass happens - no matter

3 A string of passes (unless rushing towards a goal) should give teacher and student pause for thought - to find ways for the student to play more musically before taking the next exam.

If you have a problem with these points, and with a teacher making them on a teachers' forum, please let me know exactly what that problem is.

Violinia

QUOTE (andante_in_c @ Apr 3 2005, 01:17 PM)

Exam marks do not tell the whole story. I know which of the two is more musical. I look forward to Girl B's lessons far more than Girl A's. (and I know which one Nat reminds me of ).

QUOTE

Look, a caring teacher, faced with, say, a third pass - unless the student was rushing towards a particular goal - would congratulate the student for passing but then study the comments sheet with them, work through the problems with the student, find out their musical tastes, get them to explore something different from exam repertoire for a while. Then - if they still want to take the next exam, introduce the pieces to them when their playing has moved up a notch, as it almost inevitably will given this approach, rather than a "ploughing through the grades" approach.

what would you then if you did all of the above and in the next exam the pupil just got a pass. you the repeated the above and the next exam was still a pass?

Girl B, Nat, in case you had any doubts. In the sense of the sheer enjoyment of playing, not anything else. The enjoyment of music comes through loud and clear in what you post. I haven't heard you play, so I'm not making any other comparisons.