I'm currently learning 3rd position and seem to be ok when the notes are on the stave, it's just with ledger lines.

I can play higher notes if I'm on a run in a passage. I see the line, line or space,space pattern so I know where I am. If I have to start up there though, it takes me a while to work it out.

Is there an easy way of being able to tell with either the line or space if you are in first 3rd or any other position ?

Do I make any sense..... ?

Fiona

Do you mean reading the ledger lines?

QUOTE

Is there an easy way of being able to tell with either the line or space if you are in first 3rd or any other position ?

Dont you have little 1's or 3's over music? Some of mine has...

Yes, reading the ledger lines.

Some of them have numbers over.

Thanks,

Fiona

QUOTE

Some of them have numbers over.

With practice and experience you will learn to know exactly which position to be in to play any particular phrase of music, without having to number everything first.

If it helps at this stage write in any extra numbers over the notes to remind you of what fingers you're using, but be careful you don't end up relying on this and playing by numbers alone.

Yes it's all about sight reading and being able to understand which note is which and where it lives on the fingerboard.

I am in a similar situation right now, and "notes on stalks" were seeming to throw me into a panic. A few ledger lines and I'm completely thrown.

Anyway I realise if I am to play the violin this has to be overcome and I am fast learning there are not any real shortcuts. So take it in manageable chunks I tell myself.

We're all OK up to a B sitting on one ledger line I guess cos that's playable in first position. I am now trying to change my mindset from thinking about this note as 4th finger on e string. It is also 2nd finger in 3rd position. But it is also (not meaning to complicate matters) 3rd finger in 2nd position and 1st finger in 4th position.

Next step, forget about what position you are in but look at where that note is on the fingerboard. It doesn't matter which finger you use, if you hold the e string down at this point the note will be a B...hmmm something of a revelation for me at this stage.

So I am now trying to stop thinking of notes in terms of what finger I put down, but where I need to put ANY finger down to get that note. The choice of finger to use will depend what other notes I need to play just before or just after. So this might be 3rd position or 2nd or whatever.

And to complicate matters more, the violin is such wonderful instrument, in a lot of cases (once you get to D on the open string and above) you have a choice as the note lives in various places on the fingerboard on different strings. So now there's the question of the tone you want. Dark and rich on G or a should I choose a brighter string. Well in all honesty right now for me it mainly depends on what is easiest to play, but the principle is there.

As for "notes on stalks", I am now playing a few 3 octave scales, so am mentally thinking to myself as I play the higher notes "What does this note look like on the stave, how many ledger lines does it have", to try and fix in my head where it is on the fingerboard in relation to what it looks like in the music.

Sorry about the length of this post, but your issue is exactly what I have been trying to get my head around this weekend. I hope this helps.

Jane

Thank you for your replies.

Jane, I know exactly what you mean.

My teacher actually tells me that he doesn't really use 'positions' afetr 3rd (well he does but not so obviously if that makes sense) It is about knowing which finger goes where.

I'm sure I will get the hang of it.

I am currently working through 'Meditation - theme from Thais' one of my most favourites and this is in 3rd pos - maybe a little higher further down the page ? I've not got that far yet.

Thats when the cats start to join in with me !

I shall keep trying.

Fiona

by the way, im just curious, what do you'll mean by 3rd position..does it mean the 'A' string?

Hi Fawnfawn,

3rd position is when you put your 1st finger where normally your 3rd would go.

On A string, the 3rd finger plays D. So in 3rd position, if you want to play D you put your 1st finger there instead.

This applies to all positions. i.e, 2nd pos - 1st finger where the second usually goes etc.

Fiona

The copy of the Thais meditation i've got goes up to 7th position at the FF (poco piu appassionato) and that's the highest it goes througout the piece but the thing I fin d tricky about it are the Sul A Sul D and Sul G's in the piece...

The copy I have, at poco piu appasionato bar is F, E,G,F,C,A
Thats the highest bar until nearly the end where it is A

What is Sul A Sul D, how do you play it ?
Not that far yet.

Fiona

QUOTE (Fiona @ Apr 4 2005, 01:21 PM)

What is Sul A Sul D, how do you play it ? Not that far yet.

Sul G means lpay on the G string hehe, Sul A on the A string etc

so i guess you would play in all sorts of positions on the one string to get the notes

Oh....I see now.

Thanks Nat !
Are you going to the adult learners concert 23rd July up here ?

i might come to watch, i dont know yet. its bordering on the time of my holiday!

QUOTE (Fiona @ Apr 4 2005, 12:39 PM)

Are you going to the adult learners concert 23rd July up here ?

I'll be there!!!

Are you going to play the Meditation????

(Now the last time I heard that played I shed a tear I can tell you, it was all very emotional...)

Jane

I have the same notes, and the A at the end is in the same position but with 4th finger.




I would take a picture of the bar but i'm not sure about copyright so i'll just draw the first note of it as best i can. The note is marked wiht a 2 for 2nd finger and the pos of first finger is marked on diagram

(note is here the F natural)
---(First finger on this note......7th pos....)
---
---
-----------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------

Well keep going Chimpyang you can do it.

Jane- if I were to play Meditation, it would most certainly make you cry - at this stage anyway !

I think I'm between G2 and 3 and have played between 7 and 15yo then taken it back up again last year at 32. And here I am tackling this piece.

Trouble with me is I have this annoying habbit of hearing a beautiful piece of music and then I'm determined to play it - whatever the grade.

At least I have a brilliant teacher who understands. Afterall, grades aren't everything if you love playing (just remind me of that when I have sat G4 piano in June!)

It will be nice to meet you in July Jane. What are you going to play ?Have you decided yet ?

Fiona

Hi Fiona

I am planning on playing one of the pieces I am getting ready for my Grade 5, a baroque piece from a Degli Antoni sonata. Nothing particularly famous I'm afraid.

I only hope it sounds Ok by July. I'm not planning on taking the exam before December, and even then I might not be ready!!!

Yes, I too, very often try and play pieces that I shouldn't even be tackling yet, but you have to have a go don't you. There violin repertoirs is so wonderful. I have managed to struggle through the Allemande from Bach Partita no 2.......but can't even play the first chord of the Chaconne (YET !!!). Oh to be able to play that, another piece that makes me weep!!

Jane

If you can tackle this piece then you're at least on G6 Standard, i think it was a G7 exam piece a while ago.

One rule that helps is to remember that in both first and third positions, a note on a line (with a line going through it) is played by first or third finger, and a note between a line (in a space) is played by second or fourth finger (or is open string).

This is why second and fourth positions can be harder to get right at first.

Violinia

Thanks Violinia.
Thats a good tip !

I'm getting the hang of it a little bit more now.

I also find when playing Meditation, I jump to different positions without thinking they are positions if you understand my meaning ?

I'm able to just find it by ear instead. Not sure if this is a good idea or not. You don't tend to learn the dots in relation to fingers that way.

Fiona

QUOTE (Fiona @ May 31 2005, 08:11 AM)

I also find when playing Meditation, I jump to different positions without thinking they are positions if you understand my meaning ? I'm able to just find it by ear instead. Not sure if this is a good idea or not. You don't tend to learn the dots in relation to fingers that way.

Well for what its worth I think if you can get to the notes without thinking about positions then that's an advance. If you know where they are on the fingerboard and can feel / hear where to go then it has to be better than having the intermediate step of considering which position it is.

So if you aren't playing the Meditation in July, what are you going to play for us?

Jane

Mmmm... I suppose so Jane

I'm actually playing Beethoven Adieu - piano solo and Ludovico Einaudi duet - Resta con me. My friend on piano and me on cello. That is if she still comes.

So unfortunatley, I've not put down violin. Didn't feel as if I could do it that much justice. Violins already have a bad enough reputation as it is !

If I was to play, I would've liked to play Ashokan Farewell. Another of my faves.

Just remind me Jane, what are you playing again ?

Fiona

Yes... it makes sense to me now. Except that a note on the violin doesn't exactly glare at you in the face like a note on the piano. You might get notes "in between" the keys of the piano (which I often do and I don't realise it because I have relative pitch; once a note goes wrong, the next one follows in the perfectly right interval but in the perfectly wrong pitch, LoL...)




Ooh yes I did try that when I finished my Grade 2, but I had not learnt positions yet, so I gave up after it got higher than B, but I think I shall try it again after my Grade 4. Love that piece!

Hahahah ! I know where you're coming from.

I have no clue what grade I'm at. Never took violin exams.
I've just got this habbit of wanting to play something (and usually do) if I like it.
Meditation is just another piece I have to play.

You're so right about piano though. I too play piano and it is easy to 'see' the notes. If you play the wrong note on the piano, you are still in tune. More than can be said for violin !!!

Fiona

I still have trouble changing position under a slur!

Lack of confidence about getting the new position right I suppose because I still jar the instrument making the bow start to bounce or do an unwanted portmento...moan moan...

It's nice, well, nicer, when you can change position during detache or at the end of a bowstroke!

I think that happens if you tend to grip the violin neck with your left hand. I used to have that problem. Relax your left hand, remember to lightly but speedily slide your finger into the next position when doing that. The violin bounces if you are "glued" to the fingerboard. Make sure your right hand does not press down too hard especially at the moment of change. Learnt from errors of the past

And yes Fiona, I think it finally dawned on me why having an accompanist in an exam is a must. It helps to keep the violin candidate in tune! LoL...
Except during the scales and the sight-reading... that can't be helped.

Remember to move yur thumb first. If you leave your thumb behind youwill never get there. Also play it slowly and listen to the slide.

Shifts up to and including 3rd position, the hand should move as a whole, including the thumb. Beyond 3rd position the fingers of the hand and the upper arm should lead, with the thumb following slightly behind. This has to be done to allow movement of the hand over the shoulder (and/or fingerboard) of the violin without restriction.

This is when it becomes absolutely vital that you aren't hanging onto the neck of the violin and supporting it with your left hand.

Thank you for those tips on position changing. I've been getting a little lazy and a firmer grip under the chin seems to reduce the problem.

I'm not sure why I let that go. It's impossible to do vibrato with the left-hand gripping the neck for grim death!!

Thanks.
M

Make sure there are times you allow your neck to relax too! Or you'll have serious neck problems after an hour or two Like not being able to turn your head back after you've finished