if someone had just passed grade 1 piano and was working for grade 2 would you say ti was a good idea to try to play grade 6 pieces.

QUOTE (clarinetlover @ Apr 5 2005, 10:13 AM)

if someone had just passed grade 1 piano and was working for grade 2 would you say ti was a good idea to try to play grade 6 pieces.

If they could play them correctly and with the correct technique etc. then why not, but I've never met someone who can go from grade 1/2 to grade 6! Who is this person, 'cause they are quite talented?

no they not are able to play grade 6 pieces, they are trying to.

but their definition of "play" is about 3 lines of pieces slowly, with absence of dynamics, expression, etc etc

Well in my limited experience I would advise against it if there is lack of expression etc. They aren't really playing the piece...perhaps trying pieces that are above grade 2 level but not grade 6...somewhere inbetween?

Thanks, i'll await other replies as well. I guess this is kind of like the topic we had in the teachers forum.

I've advised this person to stop trying to play pieces out of her reach for the minute.I've bought and given the person music, at the standard they are at,but on they insist on ignoring everything I say. I am not wasting my time on people like that any more. I was just wondering what others thought.

The person seems to think that because I am doing grades every session that they need to as well, when there is no rush whatsoever.

I get the feeling it is being wanted to do in order to look good, and being able to play grade 6 pieces is " impressive"

Why not?
There's nothing in the rule books about trying your hand at lots of music - it's not like the Grade Demons'll cover your hands in boils if you've got the audacity to try something 'above' your level
I guess the key thing is to keep in perspective how good you'd expect the result to be - and not to get disappointed with yourself if, at a nominal grade 2 level, you couldn't quite carry off the third movement of the Moonlight.

Tell them it's not "impressive" if they can't actually play the piece! Tell them that you're crazy for doing exams every term and then say, "Do you want to be crazy?!?"

Play them a grade 6 piece, a hard one, and scare them with the difficultly of it. Bring them back down to Earth, it's good to be enthusiastic about trying hard pieces, but not pieces that are 4 grades above you!

QUOTE (Fen @ Apr 5 2005, 10:28 AM)

Why not? There's nothing in the rule books about trying your hand at lots of music

No ,that's fair enough. BUT what is happening, is the person is trying to learn them from me by listening to me, and only because it sounds impressive

This person wanted to play Le Onde at our schools Feb concert, it has been done so many times recently, so my music teachers said to play Get in Step(grade 2)and thne play Le Onde in the summer.

The reaction- "well i'm not palying in the concert then"

And the BIG problem was that Get in Step doesnt sound impressive enough compared with what i was playing

When I was 16 I started playing guitar, and the first piece I taught myself after Andante in C (Tales from the Riverbank to those old enough to remember the tune) was the theme from Deerhunter (a grade 8 piece). I wasn't trying to impress anyone - I just thought it was a nice tune. I managed it sort of (though looking back it would have sounded dreadful - half speed, no dynamics etc).
The point is, it didn't do me any harm, didn't put me off filling in at an appropriate level later on, and I was never allowed to inflict my bad playing on anybody else (apart from my dear ol' dad).
Let this person get on with it - take it as a compliment that they aspire to be as good as you. Your music teachers are not going to allow substandard playing at the concert - and if against all the odds they actually pull it off and learn to play it properly, congratulate them and feel pleased with yourself at having been such an inspiration to them.

QUOTE (clarinetlover @ Apr 5 2005, 09:24 AM)

I've advised this person to stop trying to play pieces out of her reach for the minute.I've bought and given the person music, at the standard they are at,but on they insist on ignoring everything I say. I am not wasting my time on people like that any more. I was just wondering what others thought. The person seems to think that because I am doing grades every session that they need to as well, when there is no rush whatsoever. I get the feeling it is being wanted to do in order to look good, and being able to play grade 6 pieces is " impressive"

You are absolutely right. Someone who is about grade 2 could not possibly have the technique to play grade 6 pieces. They would be better spending their time more productively practising something more appropriate to their standard.

Unless they are really talented, with good sight-reading ability and musical sense, I wouldn't recommend them doing so.

I don't think such a big leap is a good idea, especially if you are not managing it properly. Why not get something right at a lower grade first, or middle grade, then move on. And sight reading on the piano is done no favours by going for such a high level you are not so comfortable with (as I found out in my grade 5).

QUOTE (Alvin @ Apr 5 2005, 04:05 PM)

Unless they are really talented, with good sight-reading ability and musical sense, I wouldn't recommend them doing so.

definitely not, the person failed grade 1 sight reading

It is even worse...

QUOTE (Alvin @ Apr 5 2005, 04:40 PM)

It is even worse...

Precisely. I feel like I am hitting my head against a brick wall. Everything I say is taken as a massive criticism, and then I get criticised myself. I cant help being able to play harder pieces.

I am trying to help, but I dont think its worth bothering anymore

If they like the piece then let them try it! I've learnt a lot from playing pieces above my 'official standard' with the help of my teacher when I get stuck! Technically I'm only grade 1, but i've had experience playing grade 6ish pieces and it's really helped me with reading higher notes and more complicated rhythms. Please don't tell them not to try it! I would have hated anyone who said that to me! I'm sure the pupil will appriciate you helping them with the piece - and they're either going to get the hang of it (and learn something) or get bored of trying to play something they can't ! good outcome either way.....

QUOTE (crazy cow @ Apr 5 2005, 04:50 PM)

Please don't tell them not to try it!

I am not telling them they cannot under any circumstances try them, but believe me its quite frustrating when they want to learn the parts that sound good

QUOTE

Technically I'm only grade 1, but i've had experience playing grade 6ish pieces and it's really helped me with reading higher notes and more complicated rhythms.

It will only help with that if you actually read the music, which they don't. It's all from hearing me play/watching me and then trying it

QUOTE

I'm sure the pupil will appriciate you helping them with the piece -

They don't,that's part of my frustration

dont give up clarinet lover, talk to this person. Sometimes, i look at a piece of music about grade 6 standard and thinki i can play it, but i cant! lol

Then again... for some people that is all they want.. to be able to just learn things by copying from someone rather than to be able to read music put in the effort needed to work things out for themselves.

Just being able to play a few things learned this way is enough for some people... they like to be able to do a few 'party pieces' but are not really very interested enough in playing to want to put in the effort that it takes to learn properly.

It's absolute nonsense for a grade1 pupil to even attempt a Grade 6 piece. It is not just a question of musical ability, a pupil's technique cannot possibly be up to it. I think this pupil needs to understand this and be encouraged to take a slower path to success.

QUOTE (sbhoa @ Apr 5 2005, 05:31 PM)

Then again... for some people that is all they want.. to be able to just learn things by copying from someone rather than to be able to read music put in the effort needed to work things out for themselves. Just being able to play a few things learned this way is enough for some people... they like to be able to do a few 'party pieces' but are not really very interested enough in playing to want to put in the effort that it takes to learn properly.

couldnt agree more with that

Music in my eyes is here for enjoyment. If somebody wishes to play something because they like it, let them. I believe we should never quash a person because of 'standard'. If people want to play and enjoy playing something do not criticise or put them off playing it.

True, we should try not to discourage someone if they want to try harder, but if they only want to learn a piece because it sounds good and they want to show it off, then yes we should discourage them.

Wanting to learn a piece just to play to look impressive shows lack of interest, determination, commitment...etc. So in this case, yes I think one should discourage a pupil from learning a harder piece.

If they want to play it at the concert and they're going to mess up, whoever is directing the concert (you?) should just give them a date by which if they can't play it well enough - it's going to have to be a firm "no". They'll work out soon enough they won't be able to do it.

If they just want to do it for their own pleasure, though, why discourage them? Probably better to let them find out on their own that they need the building blocks first.

I took up accordion some years ago and tried to walk before I could run - I wanted to go straight into playing complicated French musette stuff. I managed to work some of it out, but gave up accordion when I realised I'd need to start with the basics and work gradually up. Realised I just didn't have the time (had a young baby), so put the thing back in its case and stopped annoying everyone with my shaky version of "L'accordioniste".

I had a few lessons and my teacher never said "don't even try that, it's too difficult", or "don't try and run before you can walk" - she showed me a lot of tricks, but let me work it out for myself that I needed the building blocks before I could play them properly, which is always the best way in the end.

However, if you really are losing patience with this person, - just keep drum into their head "look, I had to do x number of hours practice to get to where I am and there just aint no shortcuts, buddy!"

Violinia

QUOTE (Violinia @ Apr 7 2005, 01:41 AM)

However, if you really are losing patience with this person, - just keep drum into their head "look, I had to do x number of hours practice to get to where I am and there just aint no shortcuts, buddy!"

I lost it a long while ago! I'm giving up with her now, I can't see the point in giving up my time and energy for someone who doesnt listen or appreciate my help. I think i've got enough to do at the moment without worrying about people like her.

I wouldn't recommend it if you're not putting in expression etc.

There is a difference between playing and performing- if someone wishes to jump in the deep end for playing it affects nothing except his or her progress. Performing reflects on others in the concert.

Possibly some of your problem is that you feel like you have been teaching/helping this person and as s/he is making such nasty noises it reflects badly on you and your teaching- it doesn't, if anyone with a good imagination can recognise the piece it reflects well on you! I don't understand why you are still helping this person as it obviously frustrates you. You can probably find a way to stop without creating somone who will never speak to you again- would your teacher be happy to tell you you are not ready to teach above grade 2 standard, even to friends, for instance? Or maybe you absolutely need to practice scales and sightreading only when s/he is around.

[/QUOTE]She has the same piano teacher as me, I am not exactly "teaching" her. she hears me play pieces and immediately wants to learn them all.

QUOTE

I don't understand why you are still helping this person as it obviously frustrates you.

Neither do I, my parents don't understand either. They've told me to stop. I will now, it's really getting to me that my help isn't appreicated and i'm taken for granted

QUOTE

Or maybe you absolutely need to practice scales and sightreading only when s/he is around.

I tried that about a month ago. But I do find it necessary to practise my pieces in school as well as other things.

Other things are frustrating me with this girl too, so maybe that just fuels my frustration with regards to this topic

Nat - there's no major problem with a student trying to play something that is too hard for her, and it's often really good fun to try, however unrealistic the aim, although it's certainly not a good idea to try to play it in a concert ! I think Fen put it well earlier in the thread.

However the main difficulty seems to be that this student may be stopping you doing your practise at times, in which case you will need to be gently firm and say that your time for helping is limited at the moment, and your situation of having to pass a lot of exams in a short time is quite different from hers.

You can regard the help you have given already as good experience for you, so all is not wasted. You will often find students who are keen to run before they can walk, and it's good practice for you in how to deal with that ! It is not an easy thing to help with, and often the student will realise that it's not working. Just occasionally a much harder piece can act as a spur to real progress, but many more times I think it ends in frustration, so there's nothing unusual about this. Maybe your friend can try later with the same piece when she has progressed a bit more.

Don't lose your cool - just be firm, and insist on some practice time to yourself - your friend wouldn't want to spoil your chances, now, would she??

Hope some of this helps!

Maggie

QUOTE (Violinia @ Apr 7 2005, 12:41 AM)

my shaky version of "L'accordioniste".

Oo Oo Oo

can you do "La vie en rose"
(you could always stand in the shadows playing this at the Kodaly course and see what happens)


Nat I'm afraid I'm guilty of exactly the same thing as your friend - I've never had a piano lesson, but I had a friend who was grade VIII standard and used to play Liebestraum really beautifully. I got the music and learnt just the opening few bars, with no intention of playing it all the way through, because I really liked it.

I suppose on one level it's daft, and not maximising your progress, but on another level it's pretty harmless, as long as she does what she's asked to do for her lessons as well.

I agree trying to overstretch herself for the concert seems a bad idea - I'd rather play something easier than my top gear, rather than harder - I suppose if the concert organiser is on the ball they would realise the piece is above her grade level, and request an adequate playthrough before letting her enter with that piece and potentially wearing the audience out waiting for the next note. If she can actually get it together adequately all the way through, then good for her.

QUOTE (zoda @ Apr 7 2005, 03:03 PM)

Nat I'm afraid I'm guilty of exactly the same thing as your friend - I've never had a piano lesson, but I had a friend who was grade VIII standard and used to play Liebestraum really beautifully. I got the music and learnt just the opening few bars, with no intention of playing it all the way through, because I really liked it.

your forgiven lol!!

also she's had 1 lesson on soprano sax and wants to know the notes for my grade 8 piece

I can understand behaviour like this. After a while you will associate playing in a certain place with feeling edgy. (is that person around, are they going to start bothering me?) Things like this can damage your own practice time, playing, confidence etc.

I think what I would probably do in this situation is say 'if you want to play what i am playing feel free to go out and buy the music and play in your own time away from me, or at home etc. but i need to study my pieces on my own without constant questioning about how to do this, or what bit i am playing.'

I don't have any issues with playing above your own level to learn a piece, but if you're only doing it to copy someone or kid yourself you are at that standard, then I think some serious thinking should be done about your real agendas for wanting to play that instrument in the first place.

Thanks for that, but i'm actually now a grade 5 student, partly because of pushing myself like this, with the support of my teachers. not meaning to show off, but i've got 4 distinctions and a merit so far for my exams too (for two instruments, over the course of 2 1/2 years) so i don't think i've done too badly really! a lot of people judge by what grade musicians are, without ever having really heard them play, and then are quite surprised by the standard that people have got to.
i also used to be self taught before i managed 2 get lessons (for about 2 years) so attempting the ridiculous goes with the territory! but please dont say that it's nonsense because it isnt. it is perfectly sane and i enjoyed doing it so much, which is basically what matters!



yeah, im afraid i have to agree! but if they enjoy it, it could persaude them to learn more... couldn't the student be given a piece without having previously heard it, to learn instead? for example, another Einaudi piece - 'I Giorni' is really nice, and the rhythms are pretty simple, so maybe they could learn something like this? I know the concert's probably gone now, but it's a gorg piece!


wwoooooooo!!!!! go u!
i have 2 say i agree completely with this post!
im really sick of people being judged by their 'standard' (as you've probably already gathered!) music is to enjoy! people who want to learn a piece should be supported and helped, not critisized! (yeah i no it annoys people trying to teach them, but thats part of the job!) they will irritate the ###### out of everyone, even those trying to help, but in the end if they enjoy the piece then thats brill!

why'd it do that? i only said ######?

lol ok, it doesn't like that word!
but i am assuring you all that i wasn't swearing! so please don't get offended!

As a once guilty but now reformed person I'd have to say that it's perfectly okay to learn pieces above one's own standard as long as one doesn't forget what one's real standard is and doesn't do any less practice of things of that standard because of it (and understands that it's not appropriate to play them in a concert! If they do it's a good learning opportunity to point out technique that they will later learn). I do agree with people though that it's important that you don't loose your practise time to this.

Personally if I see that anyone has got to grade 8 in three years, no matter what their mark, I simply don't believe that they've reached grade 8 standard yet (unless they've played another similar instrument first); merely that they've taken the exam and will catch up with themselves later (hopefully) by doing the earlier work: there's really no way to miss out the early learning stages! I don't see it as an indication of genius, more either an indication of needing the qualification for something or a lack of understanding of what playing their instrument is about. This person needs to understand that playing nicely is a lot more impressive than playing something hard badly!

If this person is desperate to play this piece is there any way anyone could make a simplified arrangement to make it easier to read? I have on occasion done this for some of my own pupils.

i used to ask myself why it was so hard to play grade6 pieces at grade1 level when really all it is is notes and melody. but now iv'e long realised that you need the experience behind your fingers otherwise you just cant cope.